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#26 2015-11-24 19:52:01

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,753

Re: Laundry

I was and the direction of the drums rotate in oposite directions in order to counter the torque which is created while washing/ spinning each drum speed of rotation is adjusted for the changes that are sensed. The drag on the inner drum is a result of wet clothing while the outer is a cancellation due to amount of water needed to keep the inner drums clothes wet. As the water from the outer drum is reduced the inner drum will spin up to throw the water outward for draining. Like you indicated the warm air would be forced into the inner drum and the last but of water would be drawn out.

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#27 2015-12-09 15:04:51

Tom Kalbfus
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Registered: 2006-08-16
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Re: Laundry

What would happen if the astronauts hung their clothes on a clothes line outside on Mars during the day? Since liquid water can't exist on Mars under most circumstances, I would think the clothes would dry out pretty fast! In fact if you hung them out at night, they might freeze solid and become stiff, but during the day, they would more likely dry out before they got cold enough to freeze. What do you think would happen if astronauts hung their clothes outside on Mars to dry? Would they have to wait very long?

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#28 2015-12-09 21:41:23

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Laundry

True but then you would lose the water which we really do need to have for recycling.....

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#29 2015-12-14 12:03:28

Tom Kalbfus
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Posts: 4,401

Re: Laundry

SpaceNut wrote:

True but then you would lose the water which we really do need to have for recycling.....

More water can always be obtained on Mars. Mars, like Earth, also has a water cycle. Water on Mars tends to be either solid or a gas. The water lost will collect as frost somewhere else!

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#30 2015-12-14 19:22:52

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,753

Re: Laundry

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

What would happen if the astronauts hung their clothes on a clothes line outside on Mars during the day? Since liquid water can't exist on Mars under most circumstances, I would think the clothes would dry out pretty fast! In fact if you hung them out at night, they might freeze solid and become stiff, but during the day, they would more likely dry out before they got cold enough to freeze. What do you think would happen if astronauts hung their clothes outside on Mars to dry? Would they have to wait very long?

Actually the water on mars breaks down and is lost due to the thermal escape mechanism called Jeans escape.

The only water that is around is salty and frozen underground until it warms and then its lost as well. Water on Mars is not endless and will take some time with boots on the ground to find the good underground sources.

edit to clarify

Last edited by SpaceNut (2015-12-15 21:25:44)

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#31 2015-12-14 21:43:14

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,343
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Re: Laundry

The Water Processing Assembly on ISS is part of the water recycling system. According to NASA documents, it is already able to process wash water. It should be able to process water from the laundry machine. Recycling!

As for water, it is not being lost quickly. If we fully terraformed Mars, it would last hundreds of thousands of years. Short term is not terraforming. Water can be harvested from (yes salty) underground sources. MARSIS on Mars Express has measured ice at the south pole. If all that ice were melted, it would produce enough water to cover the entire surface of Mars 11 metres deep. But of course it won't cover Mars evenly; high altitude locations like the tops of mountains will stay dry, while low lying areas like the dried up ocean basin in the northern hemisphere would fill. And that's just the south pole, it doesn't count the north pole, frozen pack ice in Elysium Planitia, permafrost, glaciers that have been confirmed in craters, or glaciers in the sides of valleys at mid-latitudes. If you count all of that, there's enough to fill the ancient ocean basin. Perhaps not to the same depth as it was billions of years ago, but enough to cover the basin floor.

Here is one image from SHARAD on Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter.
PIA12861.jpg

This map of a region known as Deuteronilus Mensae, in the northern hemisphere, shows locations of the detected ice deposits in blue. The yellow lines indicate ground tracks of the radar observations from multiple orbits of the spacecraft.

The ice, up to 1 kilometer (0.6 mile) thick, is found adjacent to steep cliffs and hillsides, where rocky debris from slopes covers and protects the ice from sublimation into the atmosphere.

The base map of this image is shaded relief topography obtained by the Mars Orbiter Laser Altimeter on NASA's Mars Global Surveyor. The image is centered at 42.2 degrees north latitude and 24.7 degrees east longitude. It covers an area 1050 kilometers by 775 kilometers (650 miles by 481 miles).

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#32 2015-12-15 11:49:16

Tom Kalbfus
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Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Laundry

SpaceNut wrote:

Actually the water on mars breaks down and is lost due to the thermal escape mechanism called Jeans escape.
The only water that is around is salty and frozen underground until it warms and then its lost as well. Water on Mars is not endless and will take some time with boots on the ground to find the good underground sources.

The water boils away, but the salt gets left behind. You just have to collect the water vapor that evaporates and you have fresh water. Getting water to boil on Mars is fairly easy.

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#33 2015-12-15 11:52:05

Tom Kalbfus
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Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Laundry

RobertDyck wrote:

The Water Processing Assembly on ISS is part of the water recycling system. According to NASA documents, it is already able to process wash water. It should be able to process water from the laundry machine. Recycling!

As for water, it is not being lost quickly. If we fully terraformed Mars, it would last hundreds of thousands of years. Short term is not terraforming. Water can be harvested from (yes salty) underground sources. MARSIS on Mars Express has measured ice at the south pole. If all that ice were melted, it would produce enough water to cover the entire surface of Mars 11 metres deep. But of course it won't cover Mars evenly; high altitude locations like the tops of mountains will stay dry, while low lying areas like the dried up ocean basin in the northern hemisphere would fill. And that's just the south pole, it doesn't count the north pole, frozen pack ice in Elysium Planitia, permafrost, glaciers that have been confirmed in craters, or glaciers in the sides of valleys at mid-latitudes. If you count all of that, there's enough to fill the ancient ocean basin. Perhaps not to the same depth as it was billions of years ago, but enough to cover the basin floor.

Here is one image from SHARAD on Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter.
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/browse/PIA12861.jpg

This map of a region known as Deuteronilus Mensae, in the northern hemisphere, shows locations of the detected ice deposits in blue. The yellow lines indicate ground tracks of the radar observations from multiple orbits of the spacecraft.

The ice, up to 1 kilometer (0.6 mile) thick, is found adjacent to steep cliffs and hillsides, where rocky debris from slopes covers and protects the ice from sublimation into the atmosphere.

The base map of this image is shaded relief topography obtained by the Mars Orbiter Laser Altimeter on NASA's Mars Global Surveyor. The image is centered at 42.2 degrees north latitude and 24.7 degrees east longitude. It covers an area 1050 kilometers by 775 kilometers (650 miles by 481 miles).

Certainly that's enough water to wash your clothes with, or to flush your toilet! A Mars base doesn't have to be a closed system if its located in the right place.

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#34 2015-12-15 13:30:26

Terraformer
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Re: Laundry

Sure it doesn't, but since your waste water is probably going to be cleaner than the water you mine...


"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

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#35 2015-12-15 14:41:27

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Laundry

Terraformer wrote:

Sure it doesn't, but since your waste water is probably going to be cleaner than the water you mine...

That's the point. It takes more energy to mine, filter, and desalinate water from deposits than it does to recycle. So every Mars base/settlement must recycle.

And this is extremely important. Here on Earth modern industrial society has become extremely wasteful. Before the 1920s, it was common that tools and household goods were designed to last. These goods would be inherited, passed from generation to generation. But in the 1920s some businessman discovered built-in obsolescence. That is not actually obsolescence at all, it means deliberately designing new products so they fall apart. That requires your customers re-purchase the same item over and over again. I'll give an example: several years ago I talked to an auto-repair technician. He specialized in Honda Civics. In 2004/2005 he complained the new model replaced a steel ball bearing for the steering linkage with a plastic bushing. That bushing will wear out after a certain known number of flexes. Driving on a typical street, that means after a certain number of kilometres/miles. When I described this to another businessman, he said the plastic part is so cheap it's less expensive to just replace it. But I pointed out to him the costs: a steel bearing costs about $2.50 while the plastic bushing costs 17¢. That may sound like it's worth replacing, because you can buy several bushings for the cost of one bearing. But that ignores the fact labour to replace the bushing just once is between $60 and $160. The steel bearing will last longer than the life of the car. As parts like this wear out, the vehicle owner is pressured to throw the entire vehicle in the garbage, and buy a new one. That's extortion, and replacing parts with ones that are known to wear out is really sabotage. Mars can't afford that sort of shit. Equipment on Mars must keep working, and all materials must be recycled. Developing durable goods that are actually durable and recycling everything else, is technology that can be used on Earth.

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#36 2019-03-31 14:45:31

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,753

Re: Laundry

Saw article and its time to refresh a topic which had quite a bit into its design.
Russia develops washing machine for space

With water at a premium, currently astronauts on the International Space Station (ISS) for stints of some six months cannot wash their clothes in any way and simply put on new outfits when their clothes get dirty.

Astronauts usually wear the same outfit for three to four days and then throw them away with other rubbish.

In 2017, a Russian space industry journal published a paper by RKK Energiya researchers with a description and diagrams of a washing machine that could be used on the ISS.

It said that for three crew members, up to 660 kilogrammes (1,450 lbs) of clothes have to be ferried to the ISS over a year.

For a two-year flight to Mars with six crew members this could increase to three tonnes, the authors warned.

Ya that is a lot of dry clothing to replace each times its dirty.

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#37 2019-03-31 15:51:04

elderflower
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Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,262

Re: Laundry

Turn the thermostat up and only wear what you need for decency.

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#38 2019-03-31 16:57:06

GW Johnson
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From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 4,952
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Re: Laundry

Who says nothing is indecent?

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#39 2019-04-09 10:44:19

elderflower
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Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,262

Re: Laundry

People get uncomfortable with public exposure, unless they have been brought up in a community that doesn't use clothing. Indecency is the term we use for things about the human body that upset such people. Some folks get upset at the display of a woman's head hair, although that is often about control and domination which are furthered too easily by pointing out "indecency". Indecency is a matter of conditioning of the viewer and of the displayer, but it will have to be considered in what will be a pretty small colony for a long time.

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#40 2020-09-12 09:14:36

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,753

Re: Laundry

Had forgotten partially about this topic as its going to be critical for a mars journey...

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#41 2020-09-13 17:35:10

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 6,228

Re: Laundry

I don't care if people walk around in 3 piece suits or their birthday suit, but I draw the line at sitting in someone else's fecal matter.  In your own home, you can wear whatever you want.  If other people have a problem with that, then I guess they'll have to learn how to get over themselves.

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#42 2020-09-13 17:53:33

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,306

Re: Laundry

Maintenance of personal sanitation will be of paramount importance in confined quarters. People doing strenuous physical activity perspire and ultimately STINK. I suppose the answer is wet wipes for cleaning the armpits and genital areas of all space travelers. Clothing? Laundry? That really DOES require some thought. Disposable underwear, such as Attends, or adult disposable diapers? Use of scarce water for washing clothing may seem to be excessive, but the psychological boost of clean garments on a 6 month voyage to Mars cannot be underestimated.

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#43 2020-09-13 18:30:41

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 6,228

Re: Laundry

Oldfart1939,

Washing dirty laundry is absolutely essential.  The various artificial gravity designs ensure that laundry can be done using conventional washing machines.  All ships have laundry cleaned and returned once per week for the exact reasons you mentioned.  Living in close quarters with hundreds of other people is far easier to handle when some modicum of personal hygiene and cleanliness is maintained.  Washing water loaded with detergent is recycled aboard ISS, along with the water in urine, fecal matter, and sweat.

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#44 2020-09-13 19:22:49

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,008

Re: Laundry

For SpaceNut, kbd512 and Elderflower ... thanks for bringing this topic back to life ...

RobertDyck is right in the early stages of planning a ** real ** ship for the Earth/Mars circuit.  Operation of the laundry (under the supervision of a member of the crew) is exactly the sort of duty passengers on a liner to Mars should be expected to carry out.

Other similar duties are kitchen duty and cleaning of living spaces.  A crew headed for Mars should welcome these assignments, because they will seamlessly blend into the routine they will experience in a Mars base.

(th)

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#45 2020-12-10 14:59:03

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,343
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Re: Laundry

How do you do laundry in space? NASA taps P&G to find solution

The National Aeronautics and Space Administration has tapped Procter & Gamble for a project that takes the consumer goods company back to its roots, albeit in a space-age way.

NASA has signed a contract with P&G (NYSE: PG) to develop the first detergent for washing clothes in space. Currently, astronauts' dirty laundry is packaged up and ejected alongside other waste in a capsule to burn in the atmosphere, or returned to Earth as garbage.

It's not just laundry though. According to the contract between NASA and P&G, the space agency wants Procter & Gamble to create and improve the best methods for cleaning clothing and crew quarters for space exploration missions.

The objectives of both parties, as laid out in the contract are twofold:

  • NASA hopes to find the best ways to clean in space for potential long-term missions using a closed life support system.

  • P&G seeks to utilize those discoveries for applications on earth in places where water is scare and cleaning solutions need to respect the environment.

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#46 2020-12-10 17:10:04

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,753

Re: Laundry

The goal is to make a product that does not cause issues in the water recycling units. If pulled off this lowers the cargo that must be replaced which allows for a different payload to be sent up in the same payload mass container that would normally need to ait....

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#47 2020-12-11 19:12:04

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,753

Re: Laundry

Just wondering if the Mother earth magazine is onto something Cleaning Products for a Healthy Home

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#48 2021-12-24 18:25:11

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,008

Re: Laundry

This is a follow up to post #45 by RobertDyck...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/spacex-sent- … 52111.html

Laundry on a trip to Mars ... now an official NASA inquiry

Business Insider
SpaceX sent Tide detergent to astronauts on the ISS so they can figure out how to do laundry for long-haul trips to Mars
Isobel Asher Hamilton
Fri, December 24, 2021, 6:53 AM

SpaceX ferried a festive shipment of items up to astronauts on the International Space Station on Wednesday including Christmas presents, roast turkey, and laundry detergent.

The detergent was made by Proctor and Gamble, the company that owns Tide, and is for a serious scientific experiment.

The astronauts aboard the ISS will be experimenting on the specially-developed detergent to see how well it launders clothes in space.

The partnership with Tide was announced back in June, and according to Proctor and Gamble, astronauts on the ISS currently wear clothing several times before just replacing it with a new set. New clothing is delivered to them via shipments from Earth.

The experiments on Tide's detergent will also help NASA figure out how astronauts on future manned missions to the moon and Mars could wash their clothes.

(th)

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#49 2022-09-23 10:21:10

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 4,782

Re: Laundry

Socks, The Final Frontier
https://www.universetoday.com/157375/so … -frontier/

Doing laundry in space is not as flashy as, for example, a full-flow staged combustion engine. But it may prove equally important for going to Mars and beyond. Both technologies are essentially ways to get more performance for less mass. And in space, dropping mass is the only way forward.

NASA and Tide are working on a long-standing space problem: cleaning astronauts' laundry
https://www.floridatoday.com/staff/4387 … ick-neale/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-09-23 10:21:51)

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