New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#26 2021-07-25 17:40:10

EdwardHeisler
Member
Registered: 2017-09-20
Posts: 350

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

Israel: Pfizer vaccine allows infection but prevents severe illness

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics … d=msedgntp

A new study released this week from Israel's Health Ministry found that while the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine is highly effective at preventing severe COVID-19 cases caused by the delta variant, it was much less effective than the health agency previously thought at protecting people from infection.

The study, conducted from June 20 to July 17, with results released in a report Thursday, found that the two-dose Pfizer-BioNTech inoculation was roughly 88 percent effective at preventing hospitalization due to the delta variant and about 91 percent effective at protecting against severe cases.

However, the Israeli health agency said that for symptomatic COVID-19 cases, the vaccine was found to offer just about 41 percent protection against the delta variant, with an overall effectiveness of 39 percent for preventing delta variant infections.

The new percentage is much lower than the 64 percent effectiveness against delta variant infections that Israel reported earlier this month.

The previous figure drew widespread skepticism from health experts, who argued that mRNA vaccines like the Pfizer shot have repeatedly been shown to offer strong protection against COVID-19 variants.

The initial Israeli report was also challenged by a Public Health England study released Wednesday in the New England Journal of Medicine that found that the two-dose Pfizer vaccine was 88 percent effective against the delta variant.

In comparison, the U.K. health agency said that the AstraZeneca vaccine was 67 percent effective at preventing infection from the delta strain.

Ran Balicer, chairman of Israel's national expert advisory team on the COVID-19 response, said in a statement along with the Thursday report that their data could have been skewed, citing the ways in which vaccinated groups of people were tested versus those who had not been vaccinated.

"The heavily skewed exposure patterns in the recent outbreak in Israel, which are limited to specific population sectors and localities," mean that some factors may not be accounted for, he said, according to Bloomberg.

"We are trying to complement this research approach with additional ones, taking additional personal characteristics into account," Balicer added before noting that "this takes time and larger case numbers."

Pfizer said in a Friday statement that it was confident in the protection offered by its two-dose vaccine, with BioNTech telling Bloomberg that it was reviewing the Israeli government's data.

Israeli studies on the vaccine's effectiveness against the delta variant were previously used by Pfizer earlier this month to suggest that people may eventually need a booster shot, though U.S. health officials have said it is not necessary at this time.

Last edited by EdwardHeisler (2021-07-25 17:42:11)

Offline

#27 2021-07-25 17:55:17

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

originally talked about in 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

The main issue is what people think a vaccine should do....

Offline

#28 2021-07-25 18:30:19

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,862

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

So some 9% of infection cases among the fully vaccinated end up being serious. That's appalling. That's a huge total. Nearly one in ten. In the USA that will translate into millions of serious cases in a year.

Remember, in healthy unvaccinated people under 60 (non obese, no serious co-morbidities), the number of people ending up with serious Covid infections when exposed will be far less than 9%.

It's quite possible vaccination is impacting negatively on immunity which is why we have seen sudden rises in places like South Korea.

There is no evidence, incidentally that the Delta variant is more lethal. The Delta variant is more transmissible but probably less lethal. This is what happens with viruses, after the initial death-fest they mutate into less lethal but more transmissible versions...it's just natural selection at work.

Data from England shows the vaccines are useless at preventing transmission:

https://dailysceptic.org/2021/07/25/phe … -over-50s/

The whole populace vaccination campaign has been a complete and miserable failure.


EdwardHeisler wrote:

Israel: Pfizer vaccine allows infection but prevents severe illness

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics … d=msedgntp

A new study released this week from Israel's Health Ministry found that while the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine is highly effective at preventing severe COVID-19 cases caused by the delta variant, it was much less effective than the health agency previously thought at protecting people from infection.

The study, conducted from June 20 to July 17, with results released in a report Thursday, found that the two-dose Pfizer-BioNTech inoculation was roughly 88 percent effective at preventing hospitalization due to the delta variant and about 91 percent effective at protecting against severe cases.

However, the Israeli health agency said that for symptomatic COVID-19 cases, the vaccine was found to offer just about 41 percent protection against the delta variant, with an overall effectiveness of 39 percent for preventing delta variant infections.

The new percentage is much lower than the 64 percent effectiveness against delta variant infections that Israel reported earlier this month.

The previous figure drew widespread skepticism from health experts, who argued that mRNA vaccines like the Pfizer shot have repeatedly been shown to offer strong protection against COVID-19 variants.

The initial Israeli report was also challenged by a Public Health England study released Wednesday in the New England Journal of Medicine that found that the two-dose Pfizer vaccine was 88 percent effective against the delta variant.

In comparison, the U.K. health agency said that the AstraZeneca vaccine was 67 percent effective at preventing infection from the delta strain.

Ran Balicer, chairman of Israel's national expert advisory team on the COVID-19 response, said in a statement along with the Thursday report that their data could have been skewed, citing the ways in which vaccinated groups of people were tested versus those who had not been vaccinated.

"The heavily skewed exposure patterns in the recent outbreak in Israel, which are limited to specific population sectors and localities," mean that some factors may not be accounted for, he said, according to Bloomberg.

"We are trying to complement this research approach with additional ones, taking additional personal characteristics into account," Balicer added before noting that "this takes time and larger case numbers."

Pfizer said in a Friday statement that it was confident in the protection offered by its two-dose vaccine, with BioNTech telling Bloomberg that it was reviewing the Israeli government's data.

Israeli studies on the vaccine's effectiveness against the delta variant were previously used by Pfizer earlier this month to suggest that people may eventually need a booster shot, though U.S. health officials have said it is not necessary at this time.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#29 2021-07-25 18:44:10

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,614

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

Louis,

Prior to COVID-19, humanity has never seen another virus that was so perfectly adapted for airborne transmission between humans from the word "go".  In all probability, since to this day there is still no actual evidence for a zoonotic origin for the COVID-19 virus, that the virus was a genetically engineered strain of SARS-CoV that escaped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) while it was conducting gain-of-function research.  Years ago, according to WIV's own website, that's exactly what they were working on.  Later full-on denials that that's what they were doing there were subsequently proven to be lies.  China's (the world's actually) foremost corona virus researcher (Shi Zhengli) stated that they routinely tested the animal populations around WIV for new strains of corona viruses and found nothing whatsoever.  For someone with her background to completely miss something as significant as COVID-19 beggars belief.

I don't believe that SARS-CoV-2 was a deliberately designed bio weapon, but that has no actual effect on the end result.  If you design something that's more contagious than influenza, more lethal than the plague, more genetically complex and prone to mutation than HIV, and then you accidentally release something like that into the wild, then whatever good intentions you may have had (which nobody else could ever ascertain while you operate behind a wall of government-enforced and sponsored secrecy) behind what you did, doesn't matter in the slightest to humanity.

Here's what most conservatives / Republicans get wrong about science:

The mere fact that there are always data points providing contra-indications to a given rule or principle does not negate the general applicability of the rule or principle.  There are a few indications that the laws of thermodynamics breaks down under incredibly unique circumstances, but that does not mean that the observed behaviors of thermodynamics are not in full effect at all times.  The takeaway should be that even if someone outright hates you or is your sworn enemy, that still doesn't mean that from time to time they're trying to convey information that, due to mutual shared interest, may be incredibly important to take heed of.  While the US and Russia have nuclear weapons pointed at each other, that doesn't mean both countries can't share information about everyone's impending doom, in the form of an inbound planet-killer asteroid headed to Earth, that we should try to knock out with nuclear weapons.

Here's what most liberals / Democrats get wrong about science:

The mere fact that available data seems to fit a general hypothesis does not mean that there are other possible or even probable explanations.  Beyond that, worshiping science as a substitute for some other human brain construct deity confers no morality to the activities undertaken by scientists.  Scientists have researched how to kill or maim people with specific ethnicity, how to murder an entire city full of people using a nuclear weapon, and how to design chemicals or poisons that kill everyone after exposure to incredibly minute quantities of the substance.  As such, while you're busy "following the science", you might want to ask yourself what "the science" has led you into.  While science gave you a vaccine against COVID, in all probability that vaccine wouldn't be needed if human activity had not exposed all of us to COVID through eating wild animals or tinkering with something we had no foolproof mechanism to contain.  The development of nuclear weapons, for example, was a Faustian Bargain.  It solved no existing problems and arguably created an entirely new problem of humanity-ending proportions.

Here's what most conservatives / Republicans get wrong about authority:

Rebellion against authority for lack of trust can work against you when authority has mutual shared interest with you.  Democrat or Republican, everyone is still human.  Disease doesn't care about politics, even if some people try to politicize every issue imaginable.  Nobody I know of wants to drown in their own blood, but that's exactly what COVID causes in the people it kills.  While there's a pattern to the people it kills, that's not a guarantee that it won't come after you after it mutates.  Nature is also a very harsh and unforgiving mother.  She does not care if you failed to protect yourself because you distrust the "other people" who provided the protection.  Beyond that, there's nothing in medicine that is foolproof or 100% effective.  We utterly lack for that level of knowledge of medicine.  That does not mean that we can't use what little we do know to our benefit, despite all of our other human failings (lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, pride).  Even someone who wishes you dead would not normally be willing to kill themselves to accomplish that.  It would be to your benefit to consider that when dealing with what political and ideological opponents are telling you.

Here's what most liberals / Democrats get wrong about authority:

Conformity to the desires of authority figures is not universally a point of virtue.  We need look no further than to ISIS or Nazi Germany or Communist Russia and China to see how frequently blind obedience leads to mass murder and misery.  It would be foolish beyond belief to discount that very real possibility, as so many others have done, and paid the ultimate price in so doing.  It is an indisputable point of fact that those who give blind obedience to authority are frequently brutalized and murdered by those in positions of authority at alarming rates, because those in authority don't feel that they must earn the trust and respect of those they have been elected or appointed over.  Stalin, for example, murdered some of his childhood friends, people who never had any intention or any demonstrated behavior that was the slightest bit disloyal to either him or the Russian Communist Party, merely on the word of some random person who did not know them.  That strikes me as a society living in real fear and misery due to an inability to freely express opinions contrary to popular opinion, without reprisals.  Questioning authority takes real courage and personal integrity, but it's preferable to the alternatives.  Beyond that, in a multi-cultural / multi-religious / multi-national society, the only natural result over obsessing about our differences will be Civil War.  You can always choose to believe in principles versus dogma.  The utility range of dogmatic beliefs is very narrow, and no different than religion, which is definitely not science.

Politics for everyone:

Unless you are the dictator, you will never achieve a dictatorial society whereupon everything is done according to your personal preferences, so advocating for or otherwise helping to create a dictatorship of any variety is very counter-productive.  Even dictators are frequently murdered by the people enforcing their will, so merely becoming a dictator is no guarantee that your grip on power will last, nor that after you eventually die from old age, society doesn't simply reverse every policy you put in place.  I've spoken to an alarming number of both Republicans and Democrats who think society would be "just dandy" if they or someone who agreed with everything they thought was made dictator.  Again, nothing good will ever come from this type of thinking.

Offline

#30 2021-07-25 19:10:09

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,862

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

It's not very tranmissable. When someone gets Covid in a household in the UK only about 11% of other household members catch it as well. Not to say it couldn't be a product of gain of function research, for sure. If only it were a lot more transmissable, this whole sorry saga would be over.


kbd512 wrote:

Louis,

Prior to COVID-19, humanity has never seen another virus that was so perfectly adapted for airborne transmission between humans from the word "go".  In all probability, since to this day there is still no actual evidence for a zoonotic origin for the COVID-19 virus, that the virus was a genetically engineered strain of SARS-CoV that escaped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) while it was conducting gain-of-function research.  Years ago, according to WIV's own website, that's exactly what they were working on.  Later full-on denials that that's what they were doing there were subsequently proven to be lies.  China's (the world's actually) foremost corona virus researcher (Shi Zhengli) stated that they routinely tested the animal populations around WIV for new strains of corona viruses and found nothing whatsoever.  For someone with her background to completely miss something as significant as COVID-19 beggars belief.

I don't believe that SARS-CoV-2 was a deliberately designed bio weapon, but that has no actual effect on the end result.  If you design something that's more contagious than influenza, more lethal than the plague, more genetically complex and prone to mutation than HIV, and then you accidentally release something like that into the wild, then whatever good intentions you may have had (which nobody else could ever ascertain while you operate behind a wall of government-enforced and sponsored secrecy) behind what you did, doesn't matter in the slightest to humanity.

Here's what most conservatives / Republicans get wrong about science:

The mere fact that there are always data points providing contra-indications to a given rule or principle does not negate the general applicability of the rule or principle.  There are a few indications that the laws of thermodynamics breaks down under incredibly unique circumstances, but that does not mean that the observed behaviors of thermodynamics are not in full effect at all times.  The takeaway should be that even if someone outright hates you or is your sworn enemy, that still doesn't mean that from time to time they're trying to convey information that, due to mutual shared interest, may be incredibly important to take heed of.  While the US and Russia have nuclear weapons pointed at each other, that doesn't mean both countries can't share information about everyone's impending doom, in the form of an inbound planet-killer asteroid headed to Earth, that we should try to knock out with nuclear weapons.

Here's what most liberals / Democrats get wrong about science:

The mere fact that available data seems to fit a general hypothesis does not mean that there are other possible or even probable explanations.  Beyond that, worshiping science as a substitute for some other human brain construct deity confers no morality to the activities undertaken by scientists.  Scientists have researched how to kill or maim people with specific ethnicity, how to murder an entire city full of people using a nuclear weapon, and how to design chemicals or poisons that kill everyone after exposure to incredibly minute quantities of the substance.  As such, while you're busy "following the science", you might want to ask yourself what "the science" has led you into.  While science gave you a vaccine against COVID, in all probability that vaccine wouldn't be needed if human activity had not exposed all of us to COVID through eating wild animals or tinkering with something we had no foolproof mechanism to contain.  The development of nuclear weapons, for example, was a Faustian Bargain.  It solved no existing problems and arguably created an entirely new problem of humanity-ending proportions.

Here's what most conservatives / Republicans get wrong about authority:

Rebellion against authority for lack of trust can work against you when authority has mutual shared interest with you.  Democrat or Republican, everyone is still human.  Disease doesn't care about politics, even if some people try to politicize every issue imaginable.  Nobody I know of wants to drown in their own blood, but that's exactly what COVID causes in the people it kills.  While there's a pattern to the people it kills, that's not a guarantee that it won't come after you after it mutates.  Nature is also a very harsh and unforgiving mother.  She does not care if you failed to protect yourself because you distrust the "other people" who provided the protection.  Beyond that, there's nothing in medicine that is foolproof or 100% effective.  We utterly lack for that level of knowledge of medicine.  That does not mean that we can't use what little we do know to our benefit, despite all of our other human failings (lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, pride).  Even someone who wishes you dead would not normally be willing to kill themselves to accomplish that.  It would be to your benefit to consider that when dealing with what political and ideological opponents are telling you.

Here's what most liberals / Democrats get wrong about authority:

Conformity to the desires of authority figures is not universally a point of virtue.  We need look no further than to ISIS or Nazi Germany or Communist Russia and China to see how frequently blind obedience leads to mass murder and misery.  It would be foolish beyond belief to discount that very real possibility, as so many others have done, and paid the ultimate price in so doing.  It is an indisputable point of fact that those who give blind obedience to authority are frequently brutalized and murdered by those in positions of authority at alarming rates, because those in authority don't feel that they must earn the trust and respect of those they have been elected or appointed over.  Stalin, for example, murdered some of his childhood friends, people who never had any intention or any demonstrated behavior that was the slightest bit disloyal to either him or the Russian Communist Party, merely on the word of some random person who did not know them.  That strikes me as a society living in real fear and misery due to an inability to freely express opinions contrary to popular opinion, without reprisals.  Questioning authority takes real courage and personal integrity, but it's preferable to the alternatives.  Beyond that, in a multi-cultural / multi-religious / multi-national society, the only natural result over obsessing about our differences will be Civil War.  You can always choose to believe in principles versus dogma.  The utility range of dogmatic beliefs is very narrow, and no different than religion, which is definitely not science.

Politics for everyone:

Unless you are the dictator, you will never achieve a dictatorial society whereupon everything is done according to your personal preferences, so advocating for or otherwise helping to create a dictatorship of any variety is very counter-productive.  Even dictators are frequently murdered by the people enforcing their will, so merely becoming a dictator is no guarantee that your grip on power will last, nor that after you eventually die from old age, society doesn't simply reverse every policy you put in place.  I've spoken to an alarming number of both Republicans and Democrats who think society would be "just dandy" if they or someone who agreed with everything they thought was made dictator.  Again, nothing good will ever come from this type of thinking.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#31 2021-07-25 19:28:48

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

Its been greater in the households being wiped out for some families in the US from when it came around the first time.

Offline

#32 2021-07-26 06:53:20

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,862

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

You'll often find a family household where all the members have the same vulnerability - e.g. obesity. So that will tend to explain those cases.

Four members of my extended family living in the same household all got Covid within days of each other (and all recovered very well or had hardly any symptoms). So I am not denying whole households can get the virus but if it was really highly transmissible you would expect higher rates than 11% for onward transmission. 

SpaceNut wrote:

Its been greater in the households being wiped out for some families in the US from when it came around the first time.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#33 2021-07-26 17:22:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

The death rate for families in America is well hidden in the collected data of the cdc at this point and is hard to corelate to what is happening now.
All we are getting from the media is blame the unvaccinated, that the number dieing is all from that one action ect....begging and dieing asking for the vaccines which are not a cure....

Since the one shot did not work and another with 2 shots did not as well to stave off covid why not try A mixed vaccination of first AstraZeneca and then a Pfizer COVID-19 shot boosted neutralizing antibody levels by six times compared with two dozes of either

Offline

#34 2021-07-31 17:50:30

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,862

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

Just remember by “unvaccinated but infected with Covid” they mean “with Covid before two weeks have elapsed after receiving a second shot of the vaccine or having remained unvaccinated”  NOT “with Covid after having received no vaccine shot”



SpaceNut wrote:

The death rate for families in America is well hidden in the collected data of the cdc at this point and is hard to corelate to what is happening now.
All we are getting from the media is blame the unvaccinated, that the number dieing is all from that one action ect....begging and dieing asking for the vaccines which are not a cure....

Since the one shot did not work and another with 2 shots did not as well to stave off covid why not try A mixed vaccination of first AstraZeneca and then a Pfizer COVID-19 shot boosted neutralizing antibody levels by six times compared with two dozes of either


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#35 2021-07-31 18:48:14

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,614

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

Louis,

My second family member, Tracie, Uncle Larry’s daughter, has died from COVID.  Tracie’s own daughter is now in the hospital from COVID and her husband is in the ICU.  My mother and father are now taking care of their kids (Tracie's grandchildren) and Uncle Pat is making funeral arrangements.  Uncle Larry died before vaccines were available.  Tracie had the vaccine, but already had health problems and this new “not very contagious” (your words, not mine) Delta variant seemed to do the trick.  Tracie’s daughter and her husband may not have had the vaccine, but I'm not 100% on that.  This disease is about to erase three generations of the family of my father’s brother (Larry).  I’m amazed that you still don’t think it’s a problem worth getting vaccinated against.  I'm starting to wonder if any of us will be left, because the virus keeps killing a few more, then killing a few more the next day, and the same after that, endlessly.  The population of Austin is already gone, and Austin is NOT a minor city in America.

Offline

#36 2021-07-31 19:10:06

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

That is saddening to hear kbd512 of your losses and hope that they stop soon with those in the ICU recovering as it can happen...

Today was a day to celebrate my own family coming together for the first time since my brother coming home after near death 2 months ago and it was good to see the progress. We sat outside in the warm summer day on the back porch and had a cook out since my sister had traveled from the Carolina's to spend a week up here. It was a good day for family to stay close to each other as siblings and with our parents in attendance.

Offline

#37 2021-07-31 19:49:49

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,614

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

SpaceNut,

That's good to hear.  I'm glad your brother recovered.  He's very fortunate.  We're both at an age where things start getting taken away from us more often than given to us.  Watching my children grow up still makes me happy, though.  I've learned to accept the things that I cannot change, so it does not trouble me.  Unfortunately for all of us, death is a part of life, and there is no avoiding it, as much as we might try.  What's important is every part of life between the beginning and the end.  When it's your time, it's your time.  It's best not to dwell on it.

Offline

#38 2021-08-01 04:08:04

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,

My second family member, Tracie, Uncle Larry’s daughter, has died from COVID.  Tracie’s own daughter is now in the hospital from COVID and her husband is in the ICU.  My mother and father are now taking care of their kids (Tracie's grandchildren) and Uncle Pat is making funeral arrangements.  Uncle Larry died before vaccines were available.  Tracie had the vaccine, but already had health problems and this new “not very contagious” (your words, not mine) Delta variant seemed to do the trick.  Tracie’s daughter and her husband may not have had the vaccine, but I'm not 100% on that.  This disease is about to erase three generations of the family of my father’s brother (Larry).  I’m amazed that you still don’t think it’s a problem worth getting vaccinated against.  I'm starting to wonder if any of us will be left, because the virus keeps killing a few more, then killing a few more the next day, and the same after that, endlessly.  The population of Austin is already gone, and Austin is NOT a minor city in America.

Louis, I have shared in your scepticism regarding the fuss made and restrictions on freedom imposed in the name of controlling Corona virus.

But given the first hand accounts provided by so many members of this forum, I am beginning to question that I may have underestimated the danger presented by this virus.  I do not trust the media or any western government.  But the first hand reports that I am receiving from members of this forum, who have either lost family members or have seen them maimed and permanently damaged, are what they are.  And the numbers now suggest to me the risk is significant, that this is now comparable to heart disease or cancer as one of the leading disease vectors of society.

It looks more and more likely that the Corona virus is a half completed Chinese bioweapon that got away from them before it was perfected.  I think it says a lot that the results of the Corona Origins investigation have been hidden from the public by a US administration that has links to the Chinese communist party.

Of course, the fact that the virus is dangerous does not justify everything that has been done in the name of controlling it.  But the vaccine is looking like a more attractive prospect from where I sit.  I have been wary of the vaccine due to the severe side effects suffered by my wife.  She still has trouble walking on her own.  But I am now edging towards getting vaccinated, as the balance of benefit-risk appears to be in favour of vaccination, if not for me, than for those around me.

What are your thoughts?

Last edited by Calliban (2021-08-01 06:28:15)


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

Offline

#39 2021-08-01 08:37:05

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

The news of now shut downs or mandates for masks or vaccines  going in the wrong direction if we are to stops this virus from mutating and killing.

Here is the latest reason to wear a mask...NIH director acknowledges new mask mandates for vaccinated people are 'mostly about protecting the unvaccinated'

really...last i checked the wearing of a mask is a two way street of protection and prevention...

Then the sense of requiring a booster after x months from the last shot seems to be another issue for many. Then the experimentation of taking another round but with a different vaccine to one you have taken is another one of those things being tried to slow and lessen the occurrence of those getting sick from it.

Makers of the vaccines are also looking to up the cost to the nations which are buying there product as well.

Offline

#40 2021-08-01 09:19:00

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

Lockdowns that reduce personal mobility and activity will aggrevate the American obesity problem, which is probably the biggest factor contributing towards the US mortality rate from Corona virus.  The UK had one of the highest mortality rates in Europe for the same reason: terrible metabolic health.

Swedish mortality from the Corona virus was pretty average in Europe and I would point out that there were no mandatory restrictions, lockdowns or mask policies in Sweden.  It is therefore a good control group to assess how effective Western policies were in controlling the problem.  Mask and lock down policies were put in place in most western countries without a good understanding of how effective they would be.  Fear allows politicians a great deal of licence in putting in place restrictive policies that they would never get away with in normal times.  Politicians on the left simply do not value human freedom.  It is something that they view as being in their way.  So they will not be concerned with removing it if they can and can sell to the public as something pushing in the right direction.

Which is why I am of the opinion that control measures should be substantiated by cost-benefit analysis.  There needs to be a quantitative assessment of benefits against costs.  I would like to know that what I am being asked to do is well considered and that the costs (to freedom as well as income) have been weighed against the risks that we are trying to mitigate.  I want to know that these people have analysed the problem and are putting in place a solution that is well considered, with all concerns properly weighed.  I don't think that is too much to ask.  And it is not what I see happening with buffoons like Biden, Johnson, Trudeau and Macron, running the show and making snap judgements with controls over people's lives that are highly burdensome and imposing.  Autocratic fools, who care more about being in control than in reaching a good solution.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-08-01 09:27:45)


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

Offline

#41 2021-08-01 14:55:58

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

One only needs to look at the world case location not just what was or was not done.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

Offline

#42 2021-08-01 15:48:17

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,862

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

You're making a lot of uncited claims here.

We've never attempted a 100% whole population vaccination programme for a respiratory disease. Never. Why does this one pathogen require 100% coverage?

Comparing "Covid deaths" between vaccinated and unvaccinated is a stupid approach. You need to compare deaths.

You also need to see what's happening to the rest of your health services (crumbling) thanks to Covid obsession/hysteria and the mortality rates associated with Covid lockdowns and masking.

If you are saying elderly people should not expect to die, then you are living in rejection of reality. Of course they are going to die in a few years and we certainly shouldn't destroy the health of young people in order to give them a few months of life. 


kbd512 wrote:

Louis,

Data from one country DOES NOT make vaccines a failure!  Vaccines work, but only when you use them.  The entire point of vaccinating everyone was to cut off COVID's host reservoir, so it didn't have time to mutate again and resume killing people.  Well, guess what?  Too late for that now!  There is no such thing as a 100% effective 100% safe silver bullet that you can fire backwards at an angle and still hit the target.  Medicine can't make anything like that, because even though I'm more genetically similar to a random man I've never met from Africa than a puppy is to its own mother, genetic variation ensures that no vaccine can EVER be 100% effective.

Here's something they won't tell you when you arrive in the hospital with a gunshot wound (but it's still true):

You can inject simple saline solution into some people and kill them.  The number of people that applies to is vanishingly small and 999,999 times out of 1,000,000 (it's actually way, way less than that, but go with the example), people die because they don't get the fluids pumped into them by an IV, but yeah, that one person out there would die if we injected them with replacement fluids following blood loss, so that must mean that we let the other 999,999 die because of that one person out there that we can't save.

We have vaccinated 159 million Americans.  5,492 were hospitalized with COVID afterwards and 791 of those died.  What we will never know is if they already had COVID-19 BEFORE they were fully vaccinated.

Can you guess why we would never know that?

Here's a tiny hint:
When my family went to get our COVID vaccines, nobody from the military bothered to test any of us for COVID first.

The number of deaths from anything but COVID, that are related to the vaccine, are vanishingly small.  Now that we know what those risk factors are, we've started testing for them and reviewing medical history.  That is a major reason why we DO NOT dispense medical advice on this forum, and instead tell people to TALK TO THEIR DOCTOR.  A doctor can order tests for the types of diseases or disorders that would disqualify someone from taking a COVID vaccine.

Now let's do a little math (yes, that icky stuff):

I use 400,000,000 as the total American population figure, which includes all the illegals (they're living here, so they count)

0.000004974842767 <- This is the fraction of Americans who died who were vaccinated.
0.0000019775 <- This is COVID vaccine deaths as a fraction of the total American population.
0.001525 <- This is the fraction of Americans who died who were not vaccinated.

0.001525 (unvaccinated COVID deaths) / 0.0000019775 (vaccine COVID deaths) = 771.175726927939317

771 * 792 (number of vaccinated people who died from COVID) = 610,632 <- Ta-Da! (we checked our work)

THAT MEANS YOU'RE 771 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO DIE WITHOUT A COVID VACCINE!

MORE PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN AMERICA FROM COVID IN THE PAST 2 DAYS THAN FROM 159,000,000 VACCINES GIVEN!

AND YES, I'M AWARE THAT MOST DEATHS ARE ELDERLY.

SO WHAT?

SCREW THEM FOR BEING OLD?

GUESS WHAT ELSE, THOUGH?

THE PEOPLE WHO DIED AFTER BEING VACCINATED ARE THE SAME ONES THAT WOULD HAVE DIED WITHOUT THE VACCINE.

DOES THAT MEAN WE SHOULD ALLOW 771 TIMES MORE OF THAT SAME VULNERABLE GROUP TO DIE ANYWAY?

HOW DO YOU EXPECT ME TO IGNORE NUMBERS LIKE THAT?

Last edited by louis (2021-08-01 15:49:39)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#43 2021-08-01 16:44:04

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: 99% of COVID deaths in the U.S. are now of unvaccinated people

The confusion to getting as shot comes from a desire not to as you hear stories like this

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-d … lines-cdc/

In Provincetown, CDC researchers — as well as local, state and university scientists and investigators — had turned up 469 cases of COVID-19 among Massachusetts residents who traveled to the Cape Cod destination starting on the Fourth of July weekend.

A total of 346 of those cases, or around three in four patients, were in fully vaccinated people. A majority of those had symptoms and nearly all had the delta variant. However, no deaths were reported and only five were hospitalized, suggesting the vaccine's goal of reducing the severity of the disease remained successful.

The thought that the vaccines were to prevent one from catching covid so why get them if I am going to catch it any ways....

This has lead to the cdc indicating we need to wear masks again even if we got the shots....

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB