CDC director warns of a ‘pandemic of the unvaccinated.’

Calliban · 2021-08-01 07:36:04

clark wrote:

None of you know better than the scientists that study this. none of you know better than the physicians that live this. none of you know better than the infectious disease experts who have spent a lifetime in population health policy. You cretins with your poor education, your limited intellect, and your haphazard approach to basic logic, you represent everything that shows the Mars Society is a mistake.
A colony on Mars with just one of you is enough reason to point out why the idea is untenable. You are jokes. Sad, sad jokes.
Those with Covid vaccination die at a lower, statistically significant , rate than those that are unvaccinated. Those with covid vaccination, are hospitalized less than those without. Those with covid vaccination are less infectious, based on statistically significant results, than those that are not vaccinated. You have to be a god dam moron to not see any of this with clarity.
Oh, hey mars, where we can all live in an enclosed space, but everyone can kind of just feel themselves out on if they want to get the vaccine for a highly contagious disease. Pathetic are the replies that decide to argue with me.

Clark, your answer brims with arrogance and contempt and ignores the complexity of the situation.

The virus is dangerous, yes. But various political actors have used the fear generated by this crisis to push restrictive and unconstitutional actions that stamp all over human freedom. There is a lot of justified distrust of these people. And it leads people to question the efficacy of their solutions. The absence of proper cost-benefit assessments informed by risk assessment, also makes it difficult to understand which of them are justified and which are not. Amidst this distrust, there will inevitably be mistakes and wrong decisions by individuals that do not know which way to jump. Calling them idiots and insulting them will not win you any respect. And it will not help the situation.

Only by cooly presenting the facts do you have any hope of positively influencing the situation.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-08-01 07:38:49)

SpaceNut · 2021-08-01 07:55:21

The issue is those doctors have said it will prevent you from catching it, that there are no medical issues for taking it ect...
Then there is the latest smear of those getting it are just the unvaccinated when that is about as true as its only the ones which have gotten the vaccination which are ...just more falsehoods.

The spreading of false information is one thing but when it comes back to bite you then you got carma but no one wants it to happen to anyone
A conservative radio host who downplayed vaccines on his show is on an oxygen machine after a severe COVID-19 infection

This may become part of the norm as You're going to be asked to prove your vaccination status. Here's how to do it.

sure the paper shot record or a medical passport ect just morre stuff for the forgers to create....

We all would want to know is the virus man made, altered genetically to becoming a weapon, an escaped experiment ect but early samples were missing and have now been found

Those Virus Sequences That Were Suddenly Deleted? They're Back as the early genetic material from virus samples taken from 34 patients at a Wuhan hospital.
now we can answer the conspiracy...

kbd512 · 2021-08-01 10:00:18

clark wrote:

None of you know better than the scientists that study this. none of you know better than the physicians that live this. none of you know better than the infectious disease experts who have spent a lifetime in population health policy. You cretins with your poor education, your limited intellect, and your haphazard approach to basic logic, you represent everything that shows the Mars Society is a mistake.
A colony on Mars with just one of you is enough reason to point out why the idea is untenable. You are jokes. Sad, sad jokes.
Those with Covid vaccination die at a lower, statistically significant , rate than those that are unvaccinated. Those with covid vaccination, are hospitalized less than those without. Those with covid vaccination are less infectious, based on statistically significant results, than those that are not vaccinated. You have to be a god dam moron to not see any of this with clarity.
Oh, hey mars, where we can all live in an enclosed space, but everyone can kind of just feel themselves out on if they want to get the vaccine for a highly contagious disease. Pathetic are the replies that decide to argue with me.

clark,

First, it’s great to hear from you again. I figured you were still around and I'm glad I was correct on that point. I hope all is going as well as it can, given the circumstances. If not, then I hope tomorrow is a better day for you.

Second, this pandemic clearly weighs very heavily on your mind. You’re not the only one. Whatever you think of the rest of us, I can assure you of that. If you want to talk to someone, then you can message me and I’ll send my phone number back to you. I obviously won't understand everything going on in your life, but I will listen anyway. If you don't want to talk to me, then I think you should talk to somebody if you haven't already. Based on your work, that constant reminder of how fragile life is can't be easy to deal with. If you're permitted to and it won't harm anyone, you should spend some time in the nursery, away from the COVID wards. Life is filled with problems and it always will be, but a small reminder that it carries on can help to put everything into perspective.

Third, all that pent-up vitriol you’re harboring towards other people isn’t doing you or anyone else any good. It may seem temporarily cathartic, but ultimately it’ll only hurt you as well as others, and I don’t believe that that’s what you truly intended.

Finally, you need to stop insulting other forum members merely because they posted something you disagree with. Everyone has their buttons, and I get that, but your posts need to be a little more constructive in nature. From personal experience, watching people die that you've known your entire life is incredibly painful, and there's been quite a bit of that lately, but becoming embittered by it is a choice, even if it doesn't seem that way at the time.

Anyway, I'm off to do more yard work, but I'll check back a bit later.

Thanks for stopping by and letting us know that you're still hanging in there.

louis · 2021-08-01 17:05:00

You are peddling complete nonsense. There is no single "science" on any of these controversial matters: lockdown efficacy, mask efficacy, Covid transmission, vaccine efficacy (as opposed to natural herd immunity), or efficacy of test and trace. You may be able to find scientific papers that support your prejudices and liking for totalitarianism but I would be able to find plenty of peer reviewed scientific papers that directly contradict your ideological certainties.

That you have to resort to personal insult ("cretins" - actually it was originally a French word, ie "Christian" applied to people with what we would now call special needs, by religious orders to emphasise their moral worth as Christian souls) shows the paucity of your argument.

Do you really think that because we vaccinate against one pathogen, all pathogens are going to give up trying to invade old people's diseased and poorly functioning lungs? If you do, then you must have poor education, limited intellect and an absence of basic logic.

And even if an old person somehow avoids death by respiratory disease (pneumonia used to be called the "old man's friend" because it was a relatively peaceful and dignified path to death) what awaits them? Septicemia, leading to amputation of limbs? Dementia, so that they forget who their loved ones are? Parkinson's disease leading to a non-functioning frozen state with no control over bodily functions? Or maybe they can just look forward to dying in agony from any number of cancers gnawing away at their innards, their lungs, their bones their brain?

Your thoughtless virtue signalling is vomit-inducing.

clark wrote:

None of you know better than the scientists that study this. none of you know better than the physicians that live this. none of you know better than the infectious disease experts who have spent a lifetime in population health policy. You cretins with your poor education, your limited intellect, and your haphazard approach to basic logic, you represent everything that shows the Mars Society is a mistake.
A colony on Mars with just one of you is enough reason to point out why the idea is untenable. You are jokes. Sad, sad jokes.
Those with Covid vaccination die at a lower, statistically significant , rate than those that are unvaccinated. Those with covid vaccination, are hospitalized less than those without. Those with covid vaccination are less infectious, based on statistically significant results, than those that are not vaccinated. You have to be a god dam moron to not see any of this with clarity.
Oh, hey mars, where we can all live in an enclosed space, but everyone can kind of just feel themselves out on if they want to get the vaccine for a highly contagious disease. Pathetic are the replies that decide to argue with me.

Last edited by louis (2021-08-01 17:05:55)

SpaceNut · 2021-08-01 17:10:37

Lungs damaged and riddled by the untreated exposures to disease is why we have trouble with aging...

The Anti-vaccine Con Job Is Becoming Untenable Please, please, please don’t let anybody know that I got this vaccine.’ AAMOc3W.img?h=450&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

Mask mandates by states: As COVID cases spike, see what the rules are where you live

kbd512 · 2021-08-02 00:09:11

Louis,

I am going to give the same warning to you that I gave to clark. Stop insulting each other.

I understand your reasoning behind not getting vaccinated and your family history with adverse reactions to vaccines, but I also think it's a substantial risk at your age. What recommendation on vaccination has your doctor given to you?

I hope everyone's decision works out for them, but the simple math on this issue only runs in one direction.

kbd512 · 2021-08-02 00:43:58

SpaceNut,

Posting more partisan rhetoric from the Democrats isn't helping matters. All the name calling and partisan rhetoric in the world won't help anyone get their way. If that's not clear by now, then we're all in a much greater predicament. The more insults and threats you hurl at the people who are not vaccinated, the more you harden their resolve. They're willing to die for their beliefs, whereas I'm guessing that you are not. That means they're ultimately going to have their way, like it or not, and all of us get to deal with the consequences. All of that tribalism and vitriol and divisiveness has finally come home to roost. I hope it was worth it.

louis · 2021-08-02 06:19:01

So you're essentially saying we can replace natural immunity (our legacy from billions of years of evolution) with hundreds of vaccines (that's the plan, in case you don't realise) without any negative consequences. I seriously doubt that.

You won't take my word but how about the word of the inventor of the mRNA technology that is the basis for these new vaccines? I think he's qualified to speak on the subject, don't you?

Dr. Robert Malone invented the mRNA technology, which has been used to create the Pfizer and Moderna COVID vaccines. He has been speaking out about the dangers of the COVID shot, such as the damages the Coronavirus spike protein causes in the body. In this interview with Del Bigtree, Dr. Robert Malone calls for a stop of COVID vaccines. He explains that the COVID vaccine can cause enhanced immune response, which creates a worse reaction when exposed to the natural coronavirus. He says that it can create autoimmunities in the the body. Dr. Robert Malone also said that the spike protein is the most dangerous part of the virus (which is in the COVID vaccine) is similar to spike proteins in our bodies, and can open up (not just pass through) the blood brain barrier. This has very dangerous implications for the human body, and why there have been so many adverse reactions to the COVID vaccine.

https://vaccinefreedom.wordpress.com/20 … ovid-shot/

Everyone who has now been vaccinated has billiions of these spike proteins which the inventor of mRNA technology says are dangerous.

Maintaining good health throughout life is a marathon event, not a sprint. We might not see the full negative consequences of these vaccines for several years.

Of course Dr Malone might be wrong...but it begs the question of why the health authorities completely ignore these health concerns and always, but always, side with Big Pharma.

It's perfectly possible a "big mistake" has been made:

https://www.theburningplatform.com/2021 … an-damage/

“We made a big mistake. We didn’t realize it until now,” said Byram Bridle, a viral immunologist and associate professor at University of Guelph, Ontario. “We thought the spike protein was a great target antigen, we never knew the spike protein itself was a toxin and was a pathogenic protein. So by vaccinating people we are inadvertently inoculating them with a toxin.”

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,
I am going to give the same warning to you that I gave to clark. Stop insulting each other.
I understand your reasoning behind not getting vaccinated and your family history with adverse reactions to vaccines, but I also think it's a substantial risk at your age. What recommendation on vaccination has your doctor given to you?
I hope everyone's decision works out for them, but the simple math on this issue only runs in one direction.

louis · 2021-08-02 10:50:19

And further to the previous post, here's some real science as opposed to hysterical propaganda:

https://twitter.com/AlexBerenson/status … 35/photo/1

A double blind trial of the Pfizer vaccine showed 15 vaccinated people died and 14 unvaccinated people died during the trial period.

The alleged "efficacy" of the vaccine is a chimera.

You have to remember that in national figures the "unvaccinated" part of the population will include people with chaotic lifestyles and serious addiction problems. They will clearly be vulnerable to Covid disease. The unvaccinated also includes many people near the end of life who cannot be vaccinated. Again they are very vulnerable to Covid infection and dying from the disease.

The real comparison should be between unvaccinated healthy people at all ages and (a) their vaccinated counterparts and (b) their healthy vaccinated counterparts.

kbd512 · 2021-08-02 18:22:41

Louis,

I listened to what Dr. Malone had to say. He spoke about what could happen and the problems they had back in the 1990s. He also spoke about the steps that the vaccine developers took to mitigate those problems. His points of contention seemed related to the potential for the spike proteins to provoke a disproportionate autoimmune response (they're using a synthetic delivery protein not found in humans, which doesn't necessarily make it good or bad), long term reproductive studies (this is admittedly a complete unknown, but there doesn't seem to be any blatantly obvious indicator of reproductive harm, as of yet), which obviously could not be completed inside of a year, and also determining whether or not the vaccines could potentially cause some of the problems that he and his fellow researchers encountered, specifically the fact that the unbound spike proteins can pass through the blood-brain barrier. However, the vaccine developers bound the spike proteins specifically because they were aware of that potential problem, based upon the research that Dr. Malone and his colleagues conducted. Dr. Malone even stated that he was aware that they did that during the course of his interview.

If you had a bad batch of the vaccine (unbound spike protein), could it potentially help COVID along and/or breach the blood-brain barrier?

Yes.

Are there long term reproductive studies that determine the effects from that synthetic protein ending up in the ovaries?

No.

Do we have any clear evidence that either of those two problems are significantly worse than what the virus will do to someone without the vaccine?

Not that I'm aware of.

It's a list of concerns, not something based upon concrete evidence, and Dr. Malone was pretty clear about that.

Is it always good to have an independent body double check and produce greatly detailed studies? Of course it is.

Regarding your "tweeter", Mr Alex Berenson, I'm very curious if either you or him actually read the supplemental information that goes along with that study, detailing the breakdown of comorbidities. Some of them, from both the control group and experimental group, died from maladies that would not seem to be related to COVID at all. There were also reactions to being injected with placebos. Maybe you should take some time to read that material. Since you posted the tweet here, I presume you can find it. If you can't, then let me know and I'll post it. If you're that worried about it, then why don't you ask your doctor about these things, where there's at least a chance of receiving some carefully considered professional medical advice?

You're, what, in your 60s?

I think we can safely rule out having more children, so that concern is a moot point for you.

You already know the COVID death rate associated with people who didn't have the vaccine onboard since we have a year of data on that. We've already vaccinated at least a couple hundred million people around the world. We know what the death rate is for those people as it relates to COVID, if only because the media sensationalizes it, so do the math on what your odds are with or without the vaccine, and for goodness sake, talk to your doctor about it. Anyway, do some more leg work and if you still don't understand what you're reading, then talk to a doctor.

SpaceNut · 2021-08-02 19:12:55

I agree KBD512 listen to the Doctors and not the politicians....

The protein spike is the part of the virus that is mutating in characteristic.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41401-020-0485-4
Structural and functional properties of SARS-CoV-2 spike protein: potential antivirus drug development for COVID-19

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02039-y
How the coronavirus infects cells — and why Delta is so dangerous

Seems china has started to see the virus as well....

louis · 2021-08-02 19:45:26

"this is admittedly a complete unknown, but there doesn't seem to be any blatantly obvious indicator of reproductive harm, as of yet)"

There are many objectionable things in your post but I find that particularly repugnant when you know the authorities are encouraging young women generally and pregnant women in particular to be vaccinated.

I think I previously posted the study that showed 82% of vaccinated women were losing their babies in the first trimester compared with 10-26% being the average quoted in the literature.

You don't seem to get the point of that study I quoted. The vast majority of deaths "from Covid" happen in people who are already quite close to death. That's why it's irrelevant between the two control groups who dies of what.

You also don't seem to understand how social factors affect who gets vaccinated when.

We know for instance in the UK at least that African and South Asian groups tend to be less vaccinated but they are also proportionally far more likely to get Covid because of obesity and diabetes.

But you assume every death in those ethnic groups is a "win" for vaccination. It's nothing of the sort.

This is why I say you should only compare the healthy unvaccinated popular with relevant people in the vaccinated group.

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,
I listened to what Dr. Malone had to say. He spoke about what could happen and the problems they had back in the 1990s. He also spoke about the steps that the vaccine developers took to mitigate those problems. His points of contention seemed related to the potential for the spike proteins to provoke a disproportionate autoimmune response (they're using a synthetic delivery protein not found in humans, which doesn't necessarily make it good or bad), long term reproductive studies (this is admittedly a complete unknown, but there doesn't seem to be any blatantly obvious indicator of reproductive harm, as of yet), which obviously could not be completed inside of a year, and also determining whether or not the vaccines could potentially cause some of the problems that he and his fellow researchers encountered, specifically the fact that the unbound spike proteins can pass through the blood-brain barrier. However, the vaccine developers bound the spike proteins specifically because they were aware of that potential problem, based upon the research that Dr. Malone and his colleagues conducted. Dr. Malone even stated that he was aware that they did that during the course of his interview.
If you had a bad batch of the vaccine (unbound spike protein), could it potentially help COVID along and/or breach the blood-brain barrier?
Yes.
Are there long term reproductive studies that determine the effects from that synthetic protein ending up in the ovaries?
No.
Do we have any clear evidence that either of those two problems are significantly worse than what the virus will do to someone without the vaccine?
Not that I'm aware of.
It's a list of concerns, not something based upon concrete evidence, and Dr. Malone was pretty clear about that.
Is it always good to have an independent body double check and produce greatly detailed studies? Of course it is.
Regarding your "tweeter", Mr Alex Berenson, I'm very curious if either you or him actually read the supplemental information that goes along with that study, detailing the breakdown of comorbidities. Some of them, from both the control group and experimental group, died from maladies that would not seem to be related to COVID at all. There were also reactions to being injected with placebos. Maybe you should take some time to read that material. Since you posted the tweet here, I presume you can find it. If you can't, then let me know and I'll post it. If you're that worried about it, then why don't you ask your doctor about these things, where there's at least a chance of receiving some carefully considered professional medical advice?
You're, what, in your 60s?
I think we can safely rule out having more children, so that concern is a moot point for you.
You already know the COVID death rate associated with people who didn't have the vaccine onboard since we have a year of data on that. We've already vaccinated at least a couple hundred million people around the world. We know what the death rate is for those people as it relates to COVID, if only because the media sensationalizes it, so do the math on what your odds are with or without the vaccine, and for goodness sake, talk to your doctor about it. Anyway, do some more leg work and if you still don't understand what you're reading, then talk to a doctor.

kbd512 · 2021-08-03 04:36:10

Louis,

Is there any amount of data that would satisfy you that these vaccines are safe for use?

There are other COVID vaccines besides the mRNA-based vaccines.

Are you arguing from a point of "this thing scares me", or are you arguing from a "I don't want to take my medicine" point of view?

If the former, we have over a billion people fully vaccinated at this point, around 1.15 billion in total. Someone would notice if there were a disproportionate number of vaccinated women having miscarriages 80% of the time. The available data is rapidly overwhelming whatever arguments you have over the exceptions that exist, and we're not seeing a concurrent epidemic of miscarriages. People didn't stop having sex because there was a global pandemic. I hope you know that.

If the latter, then it's not a good faith argument.

You have a very odd way of looking at exceptions as if they somehow prove some kind of general rule. At some point, every vaccine is new and untested. If we find statistically significant adverse reactions, then we stop using it.

A 3% death rate without the vaccine amounts to 210,000,000 dead people. You may be perfectly willing to sacrifice them to satiate your fears, but other people are not.

Calliban · 2021-08-03 05:12:07

The vaccine will never be safe, if your definition of safety is 'no adverse effects'. Seatbelts and airbags are not safe by that definition either. They may well kill a few people who otherwise may not have died. But they will save a lot more than they kill. Safety measures of all kinds are a way of reducing overall risks. Kind of like hedging bets.

I personally, feel more comfortable when I can see an analysis with numbers in it. My mental arithmetic would go some like this:

Risk from taking vaccine = risk adverse reaction (causing death) + k x risk adverse reaction (damaged fertility) + C x risk adverse reaction (long term physical damage) + V x risk that the vaccine will fail or make me more vulnerable. (Those K, C and V values are weighting factors).

Risk from not taking vaccine = same as above (except resulting from virus not vaccine).

I would like to see an analysis that shows me that the number in the second equation is always bigger than the first and I would like them to be honest about uncertainties so that I can weigh them into the decision. That is what would convince me, I don't know what would convince Louis.

Have our illustrious leaders provided us with this sort of quality information? No they have not. And I doubt that they have it to give. These are people that have admitted that mass immigration is a deliberately executed strategy to breed out the white population of the UK. That is how much regard the British government has for its own people. I don't trust them and I do not trust that they have my best interests at heart, because they have plainly told me as much. Why would I trust an experimental drug that they want to give me? Given what these people have done in the past, their reassurances mean nothing to me. If someone does not care about your wellbeing, they won't care about pushing risks on you. When you have lived under an oppressive overclass for generations, who have made no secret of the fact that they want to destroy you, their reassurances aren't likely to mean much to you. Does that explain the problem a little better?

Last edited by Calliban (2021-08-03 05:44:08)

louis · 2021-08-03 07:28:30

Your attempt to tone down Malone's comments is not very convincing, but, well, you seem to be learning...maybe beginning to realise that it is the co-morbidities which are far more important than Covid or the vaccine. I never denied the importance of co-morbidities. Healthy people recover from Covid and are then immune to it and by becoming immune they contribute to herd immunity, which helps everyone. Trying to stigmatise the unvaccinated as irresponsible is despicable.

You faux encouragement of debate is not reflected online where Big Tech are busy erasing Dr Malone's statements.

As for having children I have a daughter of child bearing age and that is enough for me to be interested in whether doctors, scientists and govenrment ministers are recommending or even cajoling young women to have the vaccine when they have no idea what effect it might have on a woman's fertility. Could that really be the case? Well you seem to admit it is. The only scientific study I have seen suggests the vaccine has a devastating effect in terms of miscarriages. Why you, government, doctors, the media and all the rest have no interest in this is beyond me.

Mr Berenson is an investigative journalist with far more knowledge about these matters than most government ministers, epidemiologists or other propagandists.

Your condescending tone isn't appreciated. I know way more about the vaccine, Covid, virology and epidemiology than anyone I am acquainted with who has had the vaccine. I will very likely know far more than my GP so I won't be going to them to ask for advice. In any case, any GP that told most people not to have the vaccine would be struck off the register by the GMC, Big Pharma's friend. The aren't really able to give an honest view.

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,
I listened to what Dr. Malone had to say. He spoke about what could happen and the problems they had back in the 1990s. He also spoke about the steps that the vaccine developers took to mitigate those problems. His points of contention seemed related to the potential for the spike proteins to provoke a disproportionate autoimmune response (they're using a synthetic delivery protein not found in humans, which doesn't necessarily make it good or bad), long term reproductive studies (this is admittedly a complete unknown, but there doesn't seem to be any blatantly obvious indicator of reproductive harm, as of yet), which obviously could not be completed inside of a year, and also determining whether or not the vaccines could potentially cause some of the problems that he and his fellow researchers encountered, specifically the fact that the unbound spike proteins can pass through the blood-brain barrier. However, the vaccine developers bound the spike proteins specifically because they were aware of that potential problem, based upon the research that Dr. Malone and his colleagues conducted. Dr. Malone even stated that he was aware that they did that during the course of his interview.
If you had a bad batch of the vaccine (unbound spike protein), could it potentially help COVID along and/or breach the blood-brain barrier?
Yes.
Are there long term reproductive studies that determine the effects from that synthetic protein ending up in the ovaries?
No.
Do we have any clear evidence that either of those two problems are significantly worse than what the virus will do to someone without the vaccine?
Not that I'm aware of.
It's a list of concerns, not something based upon concrete evidence, and Dr. Malone was pretty clear about that.
Is it always good to have an independent body double check and produce greatly detailed studies? Of course it is.
Regarding your "tweeter", Mr Alex Berenson, I'm very curious if either you or him actually read the supplemental information that goes along with that study, detailing the breakdown of comorbidities. Some of them, from both the control group and experimental group, died from maladies that would not seem to be related to COVID at all. There were also reactions to being injected with placebos. Maybe you should take some time to read that material. Since you posted the tweet here, I presume you can find it. If you can't, then let me know and I'll post it. If you're that worried about it, then why don't you ask your doctor about these things, where there's at least a chance of receiving some carefully considered professional medical advice?
You're, what, in your 60s?
I think we can safely rule out having more children, so that concern is a moot point for you.
You already know the COVID death rate associated with people who didn't have the vaccine onboard since we have a year of data on that. We've already vaccinated at least a couple hundred million people around the world. We know what the death rate is for those people as it relates to COVID, if only because the media sensationalizes it, so do the math on what your odds are with or without the vaccine, and for goodness sake, talk to your doctor about it. Anyway, do some more leg work and if you still don't understand what you're reading, then talk to a doctor.

louis · 2021-08-03 07:39:15

As Calliban points out the use of the word "safe" in this context is meaningless unless defined. Even the makers of the vaccine accept it can have negative health consequences, so it is definitely not "safe" in that sense.

I would not wish to have the vaccine because I am relatively healthy and I have seen what it can do to healthy people. Why take the risk? In any cases I am pretty sure I had Covid in Spring 2020. It had only a very mild effect on me. I am not going to huge expense and effort to discover for sure if I have had it, but the NHS could usefully divert some of the billions spent on pointless test and trace to find out. If I had severe co-morbidities I might have a different view. To think of vaccines as "medicine" is childish.

How many vaccines would you personally be prepared to ingest each year at the behest of Big Pharma? 3, 10, 50, 200? Because that's the plan...they are developing oral vaccines. Once they can get you to ingest vaccines orally, the sky's the limit now they have managed to get mRNA vaccines past the regulator (it being possible to develop mRNA vaccines very quickly).

Jettisoning our natural immunity after billions of years of evolutionary development is an insane and dangerous project.

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,
Is there any amount of data that would satisfy you that these vaccines are safe for use?
There are other COVID vaccines besides the mRNA-based vaccines.
Are you arguing from a point of "this thing scares me", or are you arguing from a "I don't want to take my medicine" point of view?
If the former, we have over a billion people fully vaccinated at this point, around 1.15 billion in total. Someone would notice if there were a disproportionate number of vaccinated women having miscarriages 80% of the time. The available data is rapidly overwhelming whatever arguments you have over the exceptions that exist, and we're not seeing a concurrent epidemic of miscarriages. People didn't stop having sex because there was a global pandemic. I hope you know that.
If the latter, then it's not a good faith argument.
You have a very odd way of looking at exceptions as if they somehow prove some kind of general rule. At some point, every vaccine is new and untested. If we find statistically significant adverse reactions, then we stop using it.
A 3% death rate without the vaccine amounts to 210,000,000 dead people. You may be perfectly willing to sacrifice them to satiate your fears, but other people are not.

louis · 2021-08-03 07:55:42

Take a look at this paper.

https://americasfrontlinedoctors.org/fi … ccination/

I particularly like the following:

It is essential to account for adverse vaccine effects during the period of vaccination. Most publications on COVID19-vaccination in Israel only refer to the period after full vaccination. This is misleading and tantamount to only tell cancer patients their survival rates after they survived a successful treatment. Standard estimations of treatment success include risks during the treatment, which is often a period of increased risks, as suggested below.

The paper shows that vaccination for the over 60s is particularly dangerous.

louis · 2021-08-03 12:16:20

And this is a great graph showing you exactly how bad these Covid vaccines are:

https://imgur.com/a/wg1mtdE

louis · 2021-08-03 15:17:48

More good news - from Sweden which avoided a damaging lockdown, never made masks mandatory and followed sensible precautions without annihilating their economy. Covid deaths almost at zero.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … eaths.html

Read and absorb and don't be taken in by the BS.

SpaceNut · 2021-08-03 18:38:41

If you looked at the map I posted of the world you would see that a wide swath saw next to no virus which is an indicator of environment and not what was done...

kbd512 · 2021-08-03 19:32:24

Louis,

Re: Your posts #40, #41, #42, #43, #44

#40:
I’m not trying to do anything other than reiterate what Dr. Malone actually said during the interview. His interviewer from Del Bigtree summarized what he said near the end and that’s what I attempted to reproduce in my response to you. I don’t recall trying to stigmatize anyone over anything. Since we’re still going back-and-forth on this issue, I’m pretty sure it’s not a “faux debate”, either. With respect to the vaccine, I was talking about you, not your daughter. With respect to Mr. Berenson’s tweets, they don’t seem to mesh very well with the substance of the studies he linked to. I don’t recall trying to “talk down to you” or anyone else regarding this matter, either.

#41:
Yeah, seat belts aren’t “safe” by that definition, and never will be, but we sure as hell were stacking up the bodies from car wrecks like nobody’s business, every single year, until they were mandated by law. My mother’s sister is a nurse who refused to wear a seat belt for probably 20 years. She’s lost count of the number of people she’s treated in the ER from car wrecks who weren’t wearing their seat belts. Talk about things that make you go “hmm…”. The only reason I’m not a greasy red smear on the dash of a couple of the vehicles I’ve driven is that “unsafe” piece of nylon wrapped around my chest.

I took 1 vaccine for COVID over 1 year. I’ve had a lot more vaccines than that for everything from Anthrax to Malaria to Tetanus. I collect as many as I can. Oddly enough, I’m still here, getting older and fatter as the years go by. For someone who thinks equating vaccines to medicine is childish, how do you view basic math? While I enjoy a lively academic debate, the stench of all those dead bodies makes it tough to focus on the subject matter.

If “Little Pharma” was in the vaccine business, I’d be more than willing to try one of their products. I see no reason why “Big Pharma” should get all of the action.

We already have oral vaccines. The only mandated vaccines are to prevent diseases that frequently kill or cripple for life. COVID can and has done both of those things to far more people than the vaccines have. My tax money already went to fund it and I had no say in that, not that I was ever against our government spending public money to prevent tens of millions of people from dying, so I redeemed my coupon at the store to get what was promised to me. It was delivered by one of my fellow military service personnel.

Taking a vaccine is not “jettisoning our natural immunity”. Vaccines use the machinery of our immune system to intentionally provoke immune responses. The alternative is that you roll the dice and hope your immune system suffers no deficiencies. I like my chances better with the vaccine. You like your chances better without them. If all goes well, we both win. If the math showed my chances were no better than a coin toss, then I probably wouldn’t take any vaccines, either. However, all human experience with mass vaccination programs shows the exact opposite of what you’re claiming, with results for both “ways of doing things” measured in terms of body bags, even with the COVID vaccines.

#42:
How many cancer patients survive without treatment?

#43:
If you know so much about virology and epidemiology, then could you please produce either an anti-viral drug or vaccine that is to your liking, so that other people’s only protection isn’t predicated on a course of action that’s already killed 100 times more people (129,881 COVID deaths vs 1,403 vaccine deaths) in the UK alone?

Any general officer worthy of that title, who was losing 100 of his men for every enemy killed, would stop to reevaluate his attack strategy. Not even the Chinese Army can afford to take losses like that for very long. We’ve had immune systems alone trying to fight COVID for over a year now. The results are 4.24 million dead people and counting. Over enough time that figure will be relatively meaningless, but during the span of a year it’s pretty significant when attributable to a single root cause. And yes, I’m well aware that some of those people would’ve died from something else, if not COVID. However, in point of fact they did die from COVID. Their lungs look like bloody Swiss cheese when they perform autopsies on them.

#44:
I can’t seem to recall ever suggesting that lockdowns were a particularly good idea. As a matter of fact, I’m reasonably certain if you do a search, you’ll see that I told clark the exact same thing- we need to identify and protect the vulnerable people so they’re not killed or maimed for life. However, I took the vaccine to protect myself, to drastically reduce the chances of me falling into that vulnerable population, not out of some sense of “saving the planet” or “protecting everyone else” (as if I could ever do such a thing) or any other similar nonsense that lots of people like saying, but vanishingly few of them actually believe (or maybe they do believe that and that’s why they fly off the handle).

I carry a gun to protect my family and myself, not the entire planet. If by chance I happen to be wherever someone else is when they get attacked by a violent criminal, then to provide for the common defense, I will also do my best to protect them. I carry a first aid kit for the same reason. I have a fire extinguisher in my kitchen for the same reason. I don’t look down on people who don’t, but I recognize the general utility of having and using tools. The use of tools is why humans can kill virtually anything on the planet and everything else can only do the same to us if we allow it to. A lot of us died to get to where we are today and I’m not willing to go backwards in time.

The one thing I will never figure out, probably because I’m truly an atheist, is religion. Both sides seem to imbibe a bit too much in their religion of choice. We have people on one side who think scientists can do no wrong and people on the other side who only think scientists are trying to screw them over somehow. I simply can’t get that wrapped around the axle either way.

I’ll say it one more time here, and maybe it’ll get through, but if you like your chances without the vaccine better, then do what you think is right. If you know more than the doctors do, then please help them treat the sick an dying, because they need all the help they can get. I’ve read everything you’ve posted and discounted nothing. However, the dead bodies don’t care about what any of us think about them. They’re an objective fact of life. I like math-based arguments, because counting bodies in different piles is reasonably easy to do. If both piles were reasonably equal in size, then I would have a different opinion, but they're not remotely equal and we both know that.

SpaceNut · 2021-08-04 19:18:27

The most damage to you by covid is to the lungs
X-rays Show Difference in COVID-19 Cases Between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated Patients side-by-side-covid-lung-white-background.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

SpaceNut · 2021-08-08 08:03:50

Vaccine Mandates Are Lawful, Effective and Based on Rock-Solid Science by EdwardHeisler

EdwardHeisler wrote:

From Scientific American August 5, 2021
Vaccine Mandates Are Lawful, Effective and Based on Rock-Solid Science
Clear legal pathways exist to move the U.S. closer to herd immunity
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … s1EAc3TucI

We really do not need new topics to be continually generated for existing area of discusion

SpaceNut · 2021-08-08 08:09:11

Mandates have come out before under wearing of masks and for getting the shots to stay working at where you are employed by the employer since they foot the bill for your time away from work and the recovery time for getting covid in a positive test is at minimum 10 days but is much longer when you before hospitalized for months. Its that insurance expense that the employer is contributing to which becomes the second burden for those which catch the virus.
Its about the bottom line for the business....
Here is another reason to not believe the anti vax campaign since it can hit closer to home
Neighbors' Deaths From Covid-19 Have Arkansas Town Reassessing Vaccines

A Florida radio host who railed against Dr. Fauci and vaccines has died from COVID-19

Of course then you get others that are making wild claims
joe-rogan-says-having-vaccine-passports-would-move-the-country-one-step-closer-to-a-dictatorship First off we already have passports for the control leaving and reentry into our nation so under your words we are already in a dictatorship. not....

I see the medical passport as another layer of indication that you are responsible to not bring or return with a contagious disease from your travels.

EdwardHeisler · 2021-08-08 14:06:58

HARD FACTS

Arkansas Trend in Confirmed Covid-19 Cases

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-ca … s/arkansas

Florida doctors are exhausted and angry as the state's COVID-19 surge unleashes pandemonium inside hospitals: 'Humanly, you just break at some point'

Florida Trend in Confirmed Covid-19 Cases

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-ca … es/florida

Last edited by EdwardHeisler (2021-08-08 14:18:33)

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