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#126 2021-12-26 10:07:34

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 9,905

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

For Void re #125

Thank you for a ** really ** interesting response to my inquiry!

The idea of lowering albedo by capturing incident light with

Heliostats, and thermal power towers.

seems quite reasonable to me.

I am looking forward to your further development of this idea as you might be inspired along the way.

In the not-too-distant past, a NewMars contributor suggested covering the planet with aerogel of some kind.

If that material were designed according to your specifications (whatever they may be) it could keep radiation arriving from above, and prevent radiation from below from escape.  In addition, such a layer of material could put a stop to sand storms, by giving winds nothing to work with.

It will be fun to see how you develop this topic in the times ahead.

(th)

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#127 2021-12-26 11:35:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Lets start with this simplified notion of handling sunlight on Mars, where like hockey, for instance sunlight like a puck is pushed by Heliostats, into a net, (Thermal Collector/Liquid Greenhouse).

rVacEjX.png

Surface 'A' is a transparency.
Surface 'B' is "Anti-Solar Cells".
Surfaces 'C', 'D', and 'E' are pond retaining walls/floor.

Volume '1' is air, not necessarily pressurized.
Volume '2' is a water/ice cover, likely contained in a "Pancake shaped plastic film bubble".
Volume '3' is liquid water pressurized by Volume '1' and especially '2' above it.

Surface 'A' is vertical, so that dust will be less likely to settle on it.  It may be composed of "Glass Scales", hooked by some method to that Surface 'A', and easily removed and replaced or to clean.

Surface 'B' will still produce electricity at night, and perhaps even better, and during dust storms, but it may need to be swept off from time to time.

https://scitechdaily.com/anti-solar-cel … %20current.

Volume '1' may be pressurized to some extent, provided that Surface 'A' can be made capable of holding a pressure, which might involve a film of plastic, by itself, or on the inside of the glass scales wall of 'A'.

Volume '2' could be a bare slab of ice, but more likely is a pancake shaped bubble of water/ice, which will be degassed, to prevent the growth of microbes that might block the light to pass to Volume '3'.  Poison might even be used in Volume '2'.

This example is crafted for the Temperate Northern Zone of Mars.  Some modifications  would be needed for other areas.  Included would be Heliostats, that can walk on feet or roll on wheels, or be moved by a mover robot(s).

In the case of a partial dome, that could rotate, using air pressure temporarily built up on the inside relative to the outside to levitate and allow rotation.

So, a path, really interesting.  Higher temperatures could be tolerated in this scheme(s), if done properly.

smile

Don't have much for Aerogel yet.

Done.

Oh, I left out treatment of U.V. light.  That has many possibilities.  One would be to simply block it in the glass scales surface 'A' or more complex would allow some through but block it with a second inner surface 'A'.  Or other.

So the plastic films used in the interior will have an extended work life as to not so quickly be damaged by U.V.

Perhaps we can consider turning both polar ice caps into thermally retaining reservoirs, where the heat of summer, leaks out producing electricity with anti-solar cells, and helps to prevent CO2 from condensing.  (Other methods likely also would be used such as greenhouse gasses, orbital mirrors......, Other).  There should be plenty of solar energy to do this even at the poles.  But it will have to be done in clever ways.


Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-26 12:00:45)


Done.

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#128 2021-12-26 21:12:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I find that now and then it can pay to take a look at what others are doing on the internet, relative to what we are doing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Mars

I find this one of some use: (Orbital Mirrors)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraform … al_mirrors
Quote:

Use of orbital mirrors
Mirrors made of thin aluminized PET film could be placed in orbit around Mars to increase the total insolation it receives.[18] This would direct the sunlight onto the surface and could increase Mars's surface temperature directly. The 125 km radius mirror could be positioned as a statite, using its effectiveness as a solar sail to orbit in a stationary position relative to Mars, near the poles, to sublimate the CO
2 ice sheet and contribute to the warming greenhouse effect.[18]

I think that Statites will be a ways off in mastery, but it really seems to me that Martians will want them.

I am actually thinking that with them, the South Polar Dry Ice could be vaporized, and perhaps at the foot of the North Polar water ice cap, there could even be some open water.  That is, if the pressure of Mars becomes X2+ of what it is now.

While a lot of that water would evaporate, that could be a very good thing, as if might be possible to make it form high altitude clouds, that some think did in the past, and would warm up Mars now.

-------
This may have some relationship to some incidents where in the far past it might have rained in torrents on Mars, I think:
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/20 … ns-on-mars
Quote:
[quoteNASA Confirms Thousands of Massive, Ancient Volcanic Eruptions on Mars/quote]

Possibly that and some impactors might have been able to trigger decades where the high upper clouds might have been stimulated,
and if so, then maybe:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucedormi … d93b8671aa
Quote:

High-Altitude Clouds Likely Enabled Early Lakes And Rivers On Mars

So, as I must guess for now, I would anticipate that those variables along with the wander of the polar tilt, caused Mars to move between cold glacial and maybe something as warm as Iceland????

So, then we might get an idea of how we might toggle it to something more similar to Iceland.

I am among those who think that the regolith of Mars may contain lots of gasses that could enter the atmosphere, if it is warmed.

So, maybe significantly more than 2X the current atmospheric pressure after a while.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-26 21:26:20)


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#129 2021-12-26 21:31:01

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I want to have another look at this:
https://www.space.com/esa-oxygen-from-l … ation.html
Quote:

European startup builds oxygen-making machine for 2025 moon mission
By Tereza Pultarova published May 17, 2021

An oxygen-making machine could be processing regolith on the moon by 2025.

Picture Quote:
https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/NoNqL … 0.jpg.webp
In the picture, the Lunar simulant on the right has some Oxygen removed from it.

While we may usually think that we want to extract Oxygen from Water or CO2 in the atmosphere, I am thinking that this process may be great for Mars.  The reduced materials might be dropped into an ice-covered body of water, which is Anoxic, and the PH, and temperature,
might be controlled.  In the presence of this situation rust should happen.  Also, soluble iron, perhaps.

Anyway, this could be a path to generate salts, and dissolved metals in the water that it may be possible to extract.  Also, microbes may assist.  Also, this process might generate Methane, provided you injected CO2 from the atmosphere into the water.

Having the metals and salts and such, may provide some needed materials.

Done.

One possible input could be Martian Sand dunes, but maybe sifted regolith would be fine as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-26 21:40:43)


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#130 2021-12-27 15:37:57

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

One reason I am wandering about, is a lot of "potential" opportunities seem to be apparent.  Of course, initial observations will need confirmations.

A member has recently pondered Olympus Mons, mars_b4_moon, I believe.

I have found this, poking around about the Tharsis and Valles Marinaris regions.
Pavonis Mons:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavonis_Mons
Quote:

Pavonis Mons /pəˈvoʊnɪs ˈmɒnz/[2] (Latin for "peacock mountain") is a large shield volcano located in the Tharsis region of the planet Mars. It is the middle member of a chain of three volcanic mountains (collectively known as the Tharsis Montes) that straddle the Martian equator between longitudes 235°E and 259°E. The volcano was discovered by the Mariner 9 spacecraft in 1971, and was originally called Middle Spot.[3] Its name formally became Pavonis Mons in 1973.[4] The equatorial location of its peak and its height make it the ideal terminus for a space elevator,[5][6] and it has often been proposed as a space elevator location, especially in science fiction. It is also an ideal location for a Sky Ramp.

Sky Ramp:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_sled_launch

A thing that also catches my attention, is that it is possible that there are lava tubes that lead into the feeder canyons at the west of the "Rift? Valley".

Some opinions seem to have it that the valley may have been in part carved by lava flows.  Presumably water flows, and maybe winds as well.

This is all very curious.  I have an article that seems to claim that Olympus Mons is relatively recent.  Of course, these days, you really have to be careful about what you read.

https://lowell.edu/olympus-mons-the-big … ar-system/
Quote:

Scientists posit that Olympus Mons is still a fairly young volcano from a geologic standpoint, estimating it to be only a few million years old. That being said, there’s a good chance that it’s still active and could erupt at some point in the future. This means that Olympus Mons, which is already the size of France, could get even bigger as fresh lava flows to the surface and cools.

As I said, I am not sure I believe it, but if at all true, we might want to think geothermal energy.

From the standpoint of settlements, I think we should think about examining these potentials much more.

It is now in my mind that for certain areas of the valley judged as stable, it might make a lot of sense to have cities embedded in the cliff faces, with elevators and horizontal pathways.  Provided that the just indicated water does exist in a form usable.  There should be plenty of room for any peoples who want in, if they are not too predatory on other peoples.  If the verticals went up and down all the way, more solar power equipment could eventually be on the regions adjacent to the canyon.

And so, could there be an East<>West corridor, through the valley and up to the peaks of some of the volcanos?

While they have spoken of Space Elevators, and sky ramps, I wonder about lesser mass drivers, skyhooks, and just hopping spaceships.

So, on the way down from orbit, I guess you want a thicker layer of atmosphere, and it may be that the central valley will be sufficient.  But, on the way back up, can it make sense to jump a few times.  First jump out of the Canyon, and get refueled, then maybe jump to a mountain peak, and get refueled, then maybe get refueled in orbit, in part from the moons of Mars?

I am not really qualified to evaluate these things, but it does almost seem as if the Tharsis + Canyon are made for interactions between Martian orbit and the Martian surface.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-27 15:56:45)


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#131 2021-12-28 12:41:33

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I am increasingly seeing how human presence on Mars should also do as much as is possible and profitable to work in Martian orbits, and with its moons.

We have the option to send materials to Martian orbit Earth/Moon>Mars-Orbit, per:
-Hohmann Transfer, Mars direct, with a launch to orbit.
-Ballistic Capture Earth/Moon>Mars-Orbit.

If it proves true, that the Tharsis Region + Valles Marineris can be a good ground game to start, then it is also probably true that it will help to support orbital actions.

And then so, perhaps methods of orbital power, including mirrors.

While those would eventually take on the task of the Martian poles, most likely, at first, they may assist other activities, and perhaps then to Korolev Crater.

I was reluctant about the ice deposits in that crater, as they are so deep, but now, I am thinking that that water if liquified, could be pumped outside of the crater, to hydrate an enormous amount of covered farmland.  Mirrors in orbit will make that location more habitable, and also the use of Ice Armor, and Albedo control, could augment the value of that location.

Albedo control can include collections of heliostats, and also targets for their reflected light.

So, in effect, it may be possible to make Korolev more attractive to moisture than the polar ice caps, or at least more competitive.  Also though by using mirrors, the penalty of a long dark winter can be mitigated to some significant degree.  So, if done correctly Korolev will continue to be a collector of moisture, even while added sunlight would be used to melt its underneath, and to pump water out of it to farms.

So, the Equator, and the Korolev.

I also am wondering if this method could turn Hellas Depressio into a moisture attractor.

And what of some other craters?  What about where our probes are?

I am into unions of collections of devices to achieve these things.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-28 12:53:26)


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#132 2021-12-28 13:13:57

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

OK, I don't want to be just about mirrors:

feXgqBY.png

On surface 'A' may be mounted solar panels.
'D' may have a poly film under it to hold vapor pressure with the assistance of the weight of the device as a whole single part of a collection of such, unified into a method of ice protection.

Between 'B' and 'C' may be connecting supports of similar materials, to maintain the structure and also to provide more radiator space.

Properly used, surface 'D' should stay well below the triple point of water, in temperature and pressure.

So, this might be used in Korolev, or other ice bodies.

------

The brown structure may be regolith glued by a Urea microbial process.  I intend that fibers, of some sort be included in the mass to provide
needed strength.

Areas covered in this way, may be cool enough to allow Korolev to continue to be a moisture trap.  A method will be needed to collect the moisture further, as it might deposit on the solar panels.  I don't have that total figured yet.  Maybe compressing saturated air will do.

In some cases, Heliostats with recievers would be used, and they might be in conflict with solar panels.

Done.

We might also ask the question what to do about atmospheric dust?

Would it collect in these baffles, and would we then collect it to make more of these, eventually depleting the amount of dust on Mars?
I am not sure what is desirable in that regard.

Done

Last edited by Void (2021-12-28 13:24:24)


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#133 2021-12-28 13:32:55

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Shingles, Scales, Feathers........Volume, outer shell.

JVHcpA9.png

This is only a simple diagram, not a construction plan.

For the window, I specify "Feathers" of glass or Alon, or whatever.

Nature has used scales, and then for the Penguin, feathers, I believe.  And that is very close to as harsh as the Earth can get.

We use shingles, and glass panes.  Not to dissimilar.

My reason for a shingled outer shell, is that harsh environments call for "Layering", which I am afraid I believe many people do not think of immediately for dealing with harsh environments, as most people do not live in harsh environments.

My reason for the feathered windows, is thermal shock.  Likely it will be a vertical window, to discourage the collection of dust in the Martian environment.  You could use panes in a frame, and it might work out.  I do not intend to hold a pressure with this shingled shell.  It is for dealing with other factors such as heat, intensely focused light, and perhaps some mitigation of dust.

Alon:
https://pure.tue.nl/ws/files/2314188/621498.pdf

I may be doing overkill thinking of Alon Feathers, but what I want is something that will have high thermal shock tolerances but allow a concentration of light in though a relatively small window.  This is a bit like a cross between a light pipe and a greenhouse.

It is possible that there could be several rows of "Feathers", and that some of them could defuse light and some might block U.V. light.

The intention is to create a warm chamber, where you may have additional layers that also provide for other needs of organisms.

So, using such we might use a lot of Heliostats, to gather light into collectors, and to effectively alter the Albedo of Mars where they may be in use.

Extra heat could be stored in ice covered water, tunnels, underground chambers, etc.

There is no law against fusing the "Feathers" together into a shell, but then you need to cope with thermal shock over a broad surface.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-28 13:45:39)


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#134 2021-12-30 11:59:01

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

A request.
Mars_B4_Moon, I reviewed a post of yours about life under an Antarctic ice shelf.  This stimulated a lot of thoughts to gel together.  I will report on my thinking, but I would not mind having your post that I have spoken of.

There is the question of chemical foods.  Hydrogen, Methane, Carbon Monoxide, and for Carbon where life has energy, either solar or chemical, then CO2.

Several things are becoming obvious.  The sun may pump Hydrogen into various environments.  Earth?  Europa? Enceladus?  Other?

But I understand from various sources, that Hydrogen has methods to migrate thorough what we might consider solid, and I also suggest atmospheric and liquid mediums.

We may also have sources of Hydrogen from the rusting of "Metals", and also radiolysis.

We may have deep core sources of Hydrogen.

I intend to present articles which do suggest that these may be real things, and that there may be a stronger biology driven by chemosynthesis even on Earth, than what is presumed in the understood reality.

We must always be care full of the "Hive Mind".  The collections of people of words.  They typically instinctively seek to get plunder from the masses with words.  And for any new notion of understanding they will strongly try to circle back to what they already have constructed as reality with their structure of words.

But they are not invincible.  It is just important to understand that they are comfortable with the structure of reality that they can milk with words.  It is a necessary requirement that we endure their behaviors.

This is going to be a very interesting thing I feel.

I have also found errors in some of my long-presented materials.  For instance, having forgot that the ice slabs of Mars may somehow have regolith embedded in them, I presumed that they would float over liquid water.  This could be wrong.  Purified ice would, but native ice might not.  And that actually could present opportunities of another kind.

So, I am quite interested in getting truth, even if I have to modify what I believe.

Im taking a break; indeed, I will show some stuff that matters I think but sort of a weird mood just now.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-30 12:17:15)


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#135 2021-12-31 11:42:37

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

The concerns about social matters, annoyance.... well, that could just be me whining.  That is not a good thing to do.

Many of you don't believe in a sentient reality.  That that knows what we do.  And that is Ok, it knows, and then perhaps you suppose that what you suppose is real.  I think it takes a whole lot to become of interest to such a power, if it does exist smile It seems proper most of the time that we don't need to care.  Unless we do something very not OK.  I try not to be in any such situations.

-------

About Hydrogen, Methane, CO, other......

There are some articles that suggest that microbes in Antarctica, can eat what is in air.  It appears that this is true.  They also can get water by this.  That is quite fantastic.

This will take a while, I think.....

The baud time for what might watch us is really short relative to our ability to be aware.  Don't even try.  You cannot outsmart it.
But is scarry nice ever?  I think it is, but it is still scarry.

Trust me, i do not have the ability to understand this, but I looked for a pretty song.  I guess this is what was offered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0yc8jMjbrI

A bit later....

Actually, quite a bit.  This seems the longest post per time of beginning and end I think I have ever done.

I will stray into dangerous thinking, in the sense that I may very well make a set of incorrect suppositions.  But the danger of seeming foolish is worth the possibility of expansion of understanding.

I have been puzzling over the apparent fact that in Antarctica, microbes appear to live on the gasses of the Earth's atmosphere.  They even get their water by consuming Hydrogen in our atmosphere.  So, here is an article about that:
https://theconversation.com/antarctic-b … uel-171808
Quote:

Antarctic bacteria live on air and make their own water using hydrogen as fuel
November 14, 2021 8.31pm EST

How do microbial communities survive in such punishing surroundings?

A dependable alternative to photosynthesis
We discovered more than a quarter of these Antarctic soil bacteria create an enzyme called RuBisCO, which is what lets plants use sunlight to capture carbon dioxide from air and convert it into biomass. This process, photosynthesis, generates most of the organic carbon on Earth.

However, we found more than 99% of the RuBisCO-containing bacteria were unable to capture sunlight. Instead, they perform a process called chemosynthesis.

Rather than relying on sunlight to power the conversion of carbon dioxide into biomass, they use inorganic compounds such as the gases hydrogen, methane, and carbon monoxide.

Read more: Extremophiles: resilient microorganisms that help us understand our past - and future

Living on air
Where do the bacteria find these energy-rich compounds? Believe it or not, the most reliable source is the air!

Air contains high levels of nitrogen, oxygen and carbon dioxide, but also trace amounts of the energy sources hydrogen, methane, and carbon monoxide.

They are only present in air in very low concentrations, but there is so much air it provides a virtually unlimited supply of these molecules for organisms that can use them.

And many can. Around 1% of Antarctic soil bacteria can use methane, and some 30% can use carbon monoxide.

More remarkably, our research suggests that 90% of Antarctic soil bacteria may scavenge hydrogen from the air.

So please take note that Methane is also consumed.  It makes sense that if an organism could "Eat" Methane rather than CO2, that should be very preferred, as the microbe will get both Carbon and a fuel.  So, it probable that our Hydrocarbon activities are feeding these organisms.   I have some notion that as a greenhouse gas, Methane will have a problem existing as the more there would be the more the microbes, (Perhaps), and the faster it would be consumed.  We might think also that some process on Mars may consume Methane, maybe living or not.  How would I know?

And I see a very interesting possibility, that perhaps we could create vascular plants that would not use sunlight, but consume atmospheric fuels, and also perhaps the same thing in water.  If you read the above, then it appears that the process is quite similar to Photosynthesis.

In fact, I would be amused about experimentation to see if any creatures which are multicellular could live at least in part from atmospheric chemistry.  It should not be any mystery at all to understand that there may be ways to grow food that do not require sunshine.  Usually these are microbial "Yuck" slime, but Yogurt is slimy as well.  We should investigate.  We being any interested and capable humans and their AI.

But what of bodies of water?  Can Hydrogen, Methane, and CO feed a part of biosphere(s)?

And of course, this is something new to me, so I have some learning to do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydronium

Anyway, it makes sense that there could be some sort of proton flow in water, and probably other things similar going on.

Where can Hydrogen for this come from?

Well, this one could be true for both Earth and Mars, historically and likely even now.  If I am to understand Hydrogen, particularly if it is existing as a proton, if might slip through any containment eventually.   Likely early microbes used it long before Photosynthesis became a thing to do.

Radiolysis is another possibility.
https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2021/07 … iospheres/
Recently it is reported that the ocean sediments seem to make radiolysis more effective than just water would.

We also have U.V. hitting the ocean's surface.  It may not be very efficient, but the Ocean surface is quite large.

And then the Clouds......Three planets come to mind.  Venus, Earth, and Mars.  A microbe on Venus might not involve itself in Photosynthesis.  Recent articles suggest that if such microbes, should actually exist, they might be able to use Ammonia to buffer the acid in the clouds.   But I certainly don't know.

But we have the solar wind, which is in great part some forms of Hydrogen, and may well help the creation of water on our Moon and Mercury.  But who is looking at what it does to the atmospheres of planets?

For Venus and Mars, it must be pumping in Hydrogen, or at least may at times do so, without much interference from planetary magnitism.
For Earth, doesn't the existence of the northern lights, suggest the input of Hydrogen into our atmosphere?


I will come back later but there may be a whole lot to think about in all of this.

Europa, can Hydrogen slip down into the waters, even while Oxidants are generated by radiation?  I really don't know.  What about Ceres???

I think my head is full and I need to excuse myself.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-01 10:45:04)


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#136 2022-01-01 11:21:36

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Building on the new materials I put into post #135, here and recalling work by a now absent member, I wish to ponder the atmosphere of Mars as a resource.

I believe it was Antonius, and perhaps in the "Atmospheric Separations" area of topic(s).

He indicated that he thought that it might be possible to liquify the Martian atmosphere, and then use a centrifuge process to extract O2 and CO.  He felt there could be enough energy gain to justify such a process.

I am looking at it differently.  While it might be nice to use the cold of Mars, to quiet the molecules, I would avoid the liquid phase at least before centrifuging.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Mars
Quote:

The atmosphere of Mars is the layer of gases surrounding Mars. It is primarily composed of carbon dioxide (95%), molecular nitrogen (2.8%) and argon (2%). It also contains trace levels of water vapor, oxygen, carbon monoxide, hydrogen and noble gases. The atmosphere of Mars is much thinner ...See more

We might want any of the trace gasses, but of course everything other than CO2 and H20, are to real targets.  So an intention could be to beneficiate a gas mixture out of the atmosphere of Mars, by some method, rejecting much of the CO2, and likely not caring much about the H2O.

I can think of perhaps two energy sources for this. 
-Nuclear Fission at high latitudes in the Martian winter.
-Using Heliostats in the day to heat up a block of rock(s), during the day, and using anti-solar cells/panels, to generate a continuous amount of electricity, and then centrifuging Martian atmosphere in the cold of the night perhaps.  You could also involve a closed cycle Heat engine as well.  In fact, I am wondering if it would be possible to do a Jet like expansion of the rejected cold CO2 portion.  Push it into a hot chamber with an injection process, and then run an engine of some type with the expansion of that gas.



Other processes might be used such as membranes, I suppose.  But Mars seems to be a chemical reactor, and it does not appear that there is sufficient consumption by any process to deplete the CO and Hydrogen and indeed Oxygen in the atmosphere.

And eventually a good place to put the beneficiated gasses would be into a growth chamber, likely filled with water.  The consumable gasses to be consumed, and Nitrogen generally less so, and then the Noble gasses,

I think that this can be reasonable.  Maybe......

Quote:

General information[2]
Average surface pressure    610 Pa (0.088 psi; 4.6 mmHg; 0.0060 atm)
Mass    2.5 1016 kg[1]
Composition[3][4]
Carbon dioxide    95%
Nitrogen    2.8%
Argon    2%
Oxygen    0.174%
Carbon monoxide    0.0747%
Water vapor    0.03% (variable)

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-01 11:36:27)


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#137 2022-01-02 09:51:15

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I have been a little uncomfortable with the use of Hydrogen isotopes, to calculate, how much water has been lost from Mars.  My fear is that the sun has been adding Hydrogen all along, while indeed Hydrogen was being lost from water.  This could have produced an false number on the amount of Heavy Hydrogen, as it is after all heavy, and would be retained in the Martian gravitational field as is already supposed.

This is interesting:
https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/godd … ora-common
Quote:

Newfound Martian Aurora Actually the Most Common; Sheds Light on Mars’ Changing Climate

But now, I think I may see what we should be looking for for a planet with alien life.

If you have a planet with volcanism, CO2 and some Hydrogen are to be expected to be expelled into an atmosphere that may or may not be able to accumulate to produce a greenhouse effect.

Sources of "Food Gasses", seem to be many possible.  One might be the solar wind, and for the Earth the Aurora's.

Hydrogen may be the best food in such an environment, but CO and Methane would matter as well, and of course if they existed various other Hydrocarbons might matter.

The Germans conducted some Mars simulations to test the viability of some types of Earth life exposed to it.  They did, some types of Lichens, and also Cyanobacteria.  Both of these were tested as exposed to sunlight, as they we tested for photosynthesis.  The simulation probably did not include CO, O2, Methane, and Hydrogen, which I now presume are likely available in the Mars environment(s).

It now appears that an alternate proper "Viking" experiment should have tested for those.

If a solar wind could be a constant source of Hydrogen for planets with significant CO2 in their atmospheres, then it may be reasonable to look for those as where to find life.   It appears the -20 C is about the limits of life functions for these air eating microbes in Antarctica.  This is also very close to the activity levels in the tested Lichens as well, so that suggests that it may be as far as life can go to be active on a planet.  This seems to be well within reach in many places at times in the Martian environment.

There seems to be evidence that Lichen can suck moisture out of the Martian atmosphere, and the air breathing microbes, seem to be able to "Eat" Hydrogen, to produce energy and water.  Such organisms under grains of soil or in porous rocks heated by sunlight, may be well within their survival envelope.  And at times even very active.

It would be good to do another simulation to seek the survival of such microbes.  It seems to me that it is not that unlikely that life from Antarctica could have migrated to Mars, or vice versa.  I don't think that the challenge to do that would be that impossible.

This may also be interesting for star systems where the star is magnetically more active.  While it is feared that these situations would prevent the accumulation of atmospheres, it is also likely that Magma Oceans would be sustained by the magnetic flux.  And very likely very strong aurora's.  So there could be continuing volcanism, and an injection of Hydrogen, not to mention the production of ionized products.  Shattered molecules that might serve as food.  And an accumulation of liquid water would not be needed, so -20 C at times might be enough. 

So much for the "Habitable Zone".

I am not one of those with an insane fetish-like phobia about us interacting with such life.  I think that panspermia with such, is very likely to have happened, and likely could continue to happen.   Nonsense about moral issues, is possibly that.  We also have a moral responsibility to nurture the human race.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-02 10:12:01)


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#138 2022-01-03 10:34:45

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

This is left over from my previous post.
https://thehill.com/changing-america/su … thin%20air.
Quote:

The company, called Air Protein, says its process will be easier on the Earth than soy and other crops that supply plant-based proteins. Air Protein’s process requires 1,000 times less water and land than soybean cultivation, its CEO told the San Francisco Chronicle.

There have been related notions that have been around for a while.

Quote:

Air Protein isn’t alone. A Finnish company called Solar Foods is using a similar process with a different kind of microbe — one that produces a mixture of proteins, carbohydrates and fat. Another startup, called Calaysta, is working on a microbe-produced protein product that can be used to make feed for fish, livestock and pets.

I would expect that as stated, the synthetic foods will be crafted to resemble products already desired.

But, I anticipate that over time consumers will get used to products that do not resemble that closely.  As a child, you might have a food, and so as you would get older, that would seem natural, as long as it is not repulsive or toxic.

So, if I can believe the reports, food will be vastly plentiful, in space environments, where energy and a distribution of chemicals can be joined to an economy.

It might change the calculations about building synthetic gravity worlds.  Instead of building "Land" for agriculture in space, I think that the construction would be done to satisfy human psychological needs, rather than food.

I think that this could create a situation where a world, (Planet/Moon/Other), could be of better value as developed economically than what was visualized in let's say the 70's and so on.

And this is likely to develop alongside the very large expansion of a labor pool.  Robots, but also on the Moon and in the Earth/Moon system telepresence automation/robotics.

The various kinds of energy may have their uses.  I have a tendency to be impressed by the British/European innovation, that may produce Oxygen from the Lunar Regolith.  I have mentioned this several times.
https://www.newsbytesapp.com/news/scien … ygen/story
Quote:

European Space Agency plans to extract oxygen from Moon's surface

So, I think that this is one path to satisfaction of material needs.  The "Metals" by product, could be further processed to produce usable resources.  And also some of it might be "Rusted" in Water, to produce Hydrogen.

So, what the Moon may lack apparently may be water, Carbon, Nitrogen, and sufficient gravity.

Space Medicine may eventually conquer the gravity situation, otherwise the synthetic gravity machines, on the Moon, or near it.

So, then it may be possible that the Moon will be limited by the chemistry it lacks.  However, it is not sure that there is a "Bone Dry Moon".  It keeps being upgraded.

We have been thinking about creating a magnetosphere for Mars.  What about for the Moon?  I think that this next thing I might say, is sort of "Out There".  Could gas, ballistic capture of some substances be done to the Moon?  With a magnetic field, and a thin atmosphere, could it be possible to deliver the missing materials to the Moon?

I don't know if the solar wind can be better harvested using various methods.  And then can substances be delivered from Venus, Mars, Ceres, Callisto?  Other?

Just something to think about.  If so, then what might relative value be for the Moon as part of the Earth/Moon sub-system.  relative to other worlds, Mars in particular.

Just some stuff to contemplate, I guess.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-03 11:07:24)


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#139 2022-01-03 16:41:02

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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I could be wrong about Hydrogen from the sun penetrating atmospheres directly.....However, this suggests a way that much water would have arrived to the Earth, and perhaps Mars as well.

This is a more indirect method, but: https://www.space.com/earth-water-solar-wind-asteroids

I do not know how Hydrogen interacts with the Atmosphere of Venus, Earth, or Mars.  Maybe it just flows around, and in the case of Venus and Mars, pulls some atmosphere off into space.  However I am guessing that at times Hydrogen from the sun may mix with the Earth's atmosphere.  I could be totally wrong, of course.

But we are getting some interesting ideas about the Moon out of this which actually may be more important.

I believe that for the Moon, Protons, embed into regolith, and they think that small impactors create enough heat to cause OH and H20 to form.  Possibly some of that also comes from asteroid bits, but anyway some of this stuff gets frozen into the Lunar cold spots.  Even CO2 seems to be in the coldest places, or it is thought that it should be.

I guess I can make the suggestion that I can look deeper into the Moon, as it may be quite important for the movement of humans to other places, including Mars.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/money/na … vi-AASnPYo
https://hothardware.com/news/nasa-scien … -and-venus
Quote:

I think I have been stimulated by the two "Large SpaceShip" conversations, centering on Robert and Kbd512.  I am not putting in a bit for a third.  Rather I am thinking about the Moon.  There is some contribution from conversations by Terraformer, and Calliban.

I have been thinking about Terraforming Mars and Venus, along with out Moon.  In each case, I guess in a very distant stretch of time it cannot be said just how far each can be taken.  But I think you start with a little terraforming and then see if you can and want to do more.

You may consider that I made the title of this topic such that I can more easily argue that I can indeed discuss Mars and other worlds.  At least this is my argument.  I think that the Moon could function as a vast lever to get the human race multiplanetary in a larger scale.

The title of this topic: "Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos".

Anyway, for that envelope I am going to put some trial balloons here about the Moon.

It has been a disappointment for some intentions, that some orbits of the Moon are "Self-Cleaning".  If I understand it, orbits will decay in these paths.  In view of the trouble that space junk can create, this might be a good thing.

I guess instead of fooling around I will just describe what I think might be a possible future Moon setup:
-Created Magnetosphere, with major poles pointing down to the cold spots on the Moon if possible.  This in the hope that Hydrogen and water will be directed there.
-An atmosphere.  Just enough for micrometeors to burn up.  (This per conversation of Terraformer and Calliban).
-And of course, Heliostats that can heat up locations useful to hot temperatures so that water might be created in a manner similar to what is presumed for Mercury.  This could be a problem per retaining atmosphere.  I am not sure how compatible these notions can be.
-In my dream world, compound tethers, rotate around the Moon, and receive velocity boosts from surface magnets that may also be the source of a global magnetic field.  I am not too wild about space elevators, as I consider that they would have to be too long.  However, in this case, I am thinking of tethers that are at least of two parts, a hanging part and a back-spinning lower part.  I am hoping that the thin atmosphere could be compatible with this.  I am not assured that it can.  But in part the tethers might even be protected, as the orbits they have would be in decay "Orbits", so less space junk, and maybe the atmosphere might even burn up some impactors before they can damage the tether.  Probably there will be a need to repair these things in flight anyway, something we would have to create as a new invention(s). 

Where the tethers may put down loads and pick up loads, even so, they would receive magnetic boosts from magnetic ground stations.

There could be a higher ring of tethers that would work with the surface grazers, but maybe also some of the propulsion methods suggested in the Large ships topics.  Possibly working with plasma and the solar wind.

I have just sort of "Roughed This In", so commentary by others is very welcome.

Keep in mind that for the magnetic stations on the surface they would "Fire" in sequences, similar to electric motor coils, and that the compound tethers in orbit could also be motorized, to react magnetic field to magnetic field.

Done enough I guess.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-03 17:16:40)


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#140 2022-01-04 08:14:05

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I will admit that there can be lots of questions about the materials of my last post.

For a surface magnetic field, for the Moon, DC might be better than AC per inductive losses.

Still, with that, perhaps it would be possible to arrange orbital devices that can leverage off of an artificial magnetic field on the Moon.

I do have a greater interest in a very thin atmosphere for the Moon, as I think it might conserve gasses that are naturally input to the Moon, and gasses that may be the results of human activity.  Rocket Exhaust? Industrial activity?  Small impactors?  Solar Wind input?

Often on this site, we may ignore existing works on topics.  So, now an then I take a look.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospher … atmosphere
Quote:

Ancient atmosphere
In October 2017, NASA scientists at the Marshall Space Flight Center and the Lunar and Planetary Institute in Houston announced their finding, based on studies of Moon magma samples retrieved by the Apollo missions, that the Moon had once possessed a relatively thick atmosphere for a period of 70 million years between 3 and 4 billion years ago. This atmosphere, sourced from gases ejected from lunar volcanic eruptions, was twice the thickness of that of present-day Mars. It has been theorized, in fact, that this ancient atmosphere could have supported life, though no evidence of life has been found.[10] The ancient lunar atmosphere was eventually stripped away by solar winds and dissipated into space.[11]

That would be way more atmosphere than I would at this time think might be good.  That would imply terrible dust storms on the rather dry Moon.

I have seen articles that indicate that the Earth and Moon may have once shared a magnetic field.  Possibly atmosphere from the Earth traveled to the Moon, but it still would not have been very thick.

I have notions that the Moon may indeed have Nitrogen and Hydrogen and Carbon in its rocks in worthwhile but meager quantities.

One thing that I have thought about imparting a magnetic field and very thin but increased atmosphere to the Moon, is that it may be possible to send impactors to the Moon to add chemicals to the atmosphere.

Materials from the atmosphere of Venus?  If you could do that then you may also send atmosphere to Mars, but I expect it would be harder to do.

I have talked about sending "Tar-Ball" impactors to the Moon's cold spots as impactors, but what I am wondering about is sending a gas instead, maybe a particle beam.  Then it would be molecules and Ions, impacting the atmosphere of the Moon, but of course a magnetic field might be too effective at blocking their entrance to the Lunar Atmosphere.  But that is a thing to look into.

------

I think that the, (Pardon Me), Mars and not Moon, notion had a logic that existed but does not exist in the same way now.

The notion then was that there "Wasn't Enough" for both.  And with the SLS, that would appear to have been the correct assessment.  I really think it unlikely that the SLS will ever go as far with its work as to have humans permanently inhabit Mars.

I think the Moon must be re-assessed for what it's value might be.  I know that many will close their minds on the topic for various reasons.
I think our minds should be opened.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-04 08:34:57)


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#141 2022-01-04 11:19:28

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I guess I am on a sort of rant?

Well actually, just looking for truth.

I finally found something I like about Hydrogen and the Earth's magnetosphere:
https://www.scienceworld.ca/stories/aur … ht-proton/
Quote:

Finally, your own path sends you flying directly into a Nitrogen atom, slowing your descent and kicking off an electron. This time, you manage to grab the electron yourself, where it settles into a comfortable, stable orbit by emitting a single photon of light into the northern sky. You enjoy the rest of the Aurora Borealis light show as you drift on the gentle breeze. No longer a lone charged ion in the solar wind, you are now the nucleus of a Hydrogen atom, at home in the familiar terrestrial winds of Earth's atmosphere.

Your journey from the Sun to the Earth is complete but you, proton, have a very long life still to lead (you will outlive the Earth, the Sun and the all the stars in all the galaxies). Perhaps in the near future you will meet an Oxygen atom and combine to form a molecule of water. You might condense into a raindrop, fall into a lake and eventually be consumed by a thirsty person. Becoming part of the person’s body, you may find yourself in a cell of their retina where there is a possibility of helping that person to see another instance of the Aurora Borealis. If that person has studied a bit of science, they may even take a moment to appreciate the fact that some of the particles making up their own body almost certainly came to them by a solar wind and at one time a piece of themselves helped to create a majestic, magnetic shower of light in the northern night sky.

So, then indeed some of our water on Earth may be directly from the Solar Wind.  Not just from impactors drenched with Protons from the solar wind.

So, we think that the Moon and Mercury have some polar ices due to a similar process, and Venus has H2SO4, and some water which may come from it's interior, but I speculate that it also may come, in part from the solar wind.

Neither Venus or Mars are the same as Earth per the possibility of Proton injections to atmosphere from the Solar Wind, so I have to presume that it is anywhere from 0-100% as effective as it is to ride in on the Earth's Aurora's.  I simply don't have measurements for it, so the uncertainty is massive.

So, I think it is reasonable to say that by measuring heavy Hydrogen on Mars, we may have tainted data, as some of that could have come from the Solar wind, while light Hydrogen might have preferentially been taken away by the solar wind.

This also suggests to me that Mars may have been reasonably life friendly even in relatively recent times, as we know that there is traces of CO, O2, and Hydrogen, and also of course Nitrogen.  At times when the pressure is higher, temperatures in some soil locations should be above -20 C, which seems to be the known limits per temperature for microbe growth.

This again, about microbes that live off of gasses in the Earth's atmosphere:
https://theconversation.com/antarctic-b … uel-171808
Quote:

Antarctic bacteria live on air and make their own water using hydrogen as fuel

Our experiments showed the bacteria consume atmospheric hydrogen even at temperatures of -20°C, and they can consume enough to cover all their energy requirements.

What’s more, the hydrogen can power chemosynthesis, which may provide enough organic carbon to sustain the entire community. Other bacteria can access this carbon by “eating” their hydrogen-powered neighbours or the carbon-rich ooze they produce.

Water from thin air
When you burn hydrogen, or when the bacteria harvest energy from it, the only by-product is water.

Lichen and apparently some bacteria, seem to be able to get their water from atmosphere in Mars simulations, and I don't think that air pressure is that much of an issue.  I think that they use supercooled water, which they may have means to keep from freezing, perhaps down to -20 C.  (That is speculation on my part). 

I believe that Mars can have a much lower air pressure when the poles point "Up", but underground, and in ice I would think that remnants could survive to the next "Warm" season when the poles are not "UP and Down".

Revived frozen life:
https://www.livescience.com/63187-siber … evive.html

And Mars has had geothermal and probably still has some.

Here then is still another article:
https://time.com/5947142/water-on-mars/
Quote:

Mars Has Much More Water Than Previously Known—But There's a Catch

So, this "Oh, the solar wind took it away", thing is likely only partially true.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-04 11:47:01)


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#142 2022-01-04 11:47:35

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Referring in part to the just previous post, mostly about Mars, I would like to revisit the Moon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_mag … tial_state

In my view, the "Bone Dry Moon" story is hard to recon with.

We have views that say that the Moon may have shared a magnetic field with the Earth, and that for a time, It may have had an atmospheric pressure of Twice that of Mars now.

I have a problem with "After the impact, it was so hot that all the volatiles boiled off.
1) The Earth with dissolved volatiles.  Mostly under compression both from rock/lava, and atmosphere.  Why would the volatiles come out of solution?
2) Impact.  Enormous pressures, why would the volatiles boil out?
3) Orbital insertion/free fall in orbit.  Microgravity.  Why would the volatiles boil out without gravitation to differentiate them from heavier materials?
4) Cooling?  Geodes? More likely foam/pumice?
5) Collection into the Lunar mass.  Likely temporary atmosphere, magma ocean.  But most materials under high pressure in the magma ocean.  Henry's laws would apply.

I could be deeply wrong, and I expect that there would be losses to space, but not near total, by my guessing.

We do have recent international discovery, many American, that say water, and now maybe CO2 on the Moon as ice and ions.

And we have this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_mag … tial_state
Quote:

Though it's now widely accepted that water (in the form of ice) exists on the Moon, it took multiple missions over the course of the last two decades for scientists to reach this conclusion. A Columbia University astrophysicist, however, says that the Soviet space program had found evidence of lunar water as early as 1976. According to Professor Arlin Crotts, the unmanned Luna 24 mission brought back geological samples that contained about 0.1 percent water by mass, taken from the Mare Crisium region of the Moon. These results were published in the Soviet journal Geokhimiia in 1978, under the English title "Possible Water in Luna 24 Regolith from the Sea of Crises."

I reserve my thinking on this.  It needs to be confirmed.

But I believe that initially water found in Apollo samples which showed water were assumed to have been contaminated by Earth water when brought back to Earth in leaky containers.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-04 12:05:26)


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#143 2022-01-04 12:09:01

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

So, in my mind I am upgrading the notion of inhabiting the Moon, Mars, and Ceres.  I think it is likely that we can have what is needed on each.  But the Moon is closer and has the most solar energy.  That is not me attempting to make an executive binary Thums up for the Moon.

Rather, my opinion is that they will all be reachable, but that the Moon just might allow for the fastest space industrialization.

I am thinking that the case for synthetic gravity on all these worlds per centrifuges is likely to become better over time.  And it is not needed for agriculture on any of these worlds, most likely.

Done.


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#144 2022-01-04 12:11:38

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

A artificial magnetic field for the Moon, perhaps could be composed of distributed Cryogenic superconducting magnets on the Lunar surface.

So, the field would be lumpy, and yet could be sculpted in parts, and still compose together a global field.

As per propulsion of tethers, I have sort of suggested attraction and repulsion method against the various discrete fields, but really, if electrodynamic tethers can work for the Earth's magnetic field, then why not for an artificial Lunar field.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrody … spacecraft.
Quote:

Electrodynamic tether
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search

Medium close-up view, captured with a 70 mm camera, shows tethered satellite system deployment.
Electrodynamic tethers (EDTs) are long conducting wires, such as one deployed from a tether satellite, which can operate on electromagnetic principles as generators, by converting their kinetic energy to electrical energy, or as motors, converting electrical energy to kinetic energy.[1] Electric potential is generated across a conductive tether by its motion through a planet's magnetic field.

A number of missions have demonstrated electrodynamic tethers in space, most notably the TSS-1, TSS-1R, and Plasma Motor Generator (PMG) experiments.

So, rather than space elevators, have tethers that can hook loads either on the surface, or propelled to a sub-orbit by some method.  But I think that push/pull directly to a surface magnetic field should also be looked into.

Another reason to have multiple magnetic fields, is that you might open a "Door" to let the Solar Wind in on the sun facing side of the Moon, by reducing a field(s), and at the same time strengthen the other fields to trap the wind.

If materials could be propelled long distance to the Moon from Venus or the Outer solar system, then it might be possible to "Open a Door", at appropriate times to trap the sent gasses/plasma.

Done.



------

Last edited by Void (2022-01-04 12:17:03)


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#145 2022-01-06 09:24:43

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

This is likely of insterest per Starship as Moon/Mars bases.

Quote:

New update on how SpaceX will use Starships to build Moon and Mars bases.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ne … &FORM=VIRE

And this is sort of an update about the notion of a "Stretch Starship".
Quote:

SpaceX's crazy new Starship upgrade will change everything! Seriously, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YpcrY5gTkM

So, I am liking the drift of things per these articles.

It is probably good to start strong, not wimpy, as long as forward planning for what is likely to be possible to make come is done periodically.

Per the 2nd article, SSTO is mentioned for "Stretch", but I am even more interested in the Starship itself perhaps becoming a 1st stage, and perhaps not needing as much heat shielding.  A wish would be to not need tiles at all, but that may likely be unattainable.  I am not sure what the heating would be if it were to have a travel profile more like the Superheavy will.  In my thinking, a Superheavy/2nd stage
use would allow more launch sites to be used, which may reduce congestion.  I am not sure if this would have fairings attached to the Starship that would open up, or just to have a blunter point on the Starship and mount a 2nd stage on that.  Maybe none of the above, but I am interested.

Perhaps such a 2-stage device could work for the Moon and Mars as well.  Don't know.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-06 09:34:40)


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#146 2022-01-08 10:48:23

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Today, I seem to be interested in "Photon Boxes".  No, not as fantastic as it might seem.  Isaac Arthur has suggested that it would be possible to heat up a block of Basalt on the Moon, with solar concentrators, and then have that run a heat engine.

I will try to build on that, but also veer towards solar cells, anti-solar cells, greenhouses, radiation protection, and I suppose some other things.

To start off I will put some reference materials.

I seem to have been moving towards this at times as can be seen by my posts: #127 & #133.


Quote:

Concentrator photovoltaics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentra … tovoltaics

Here is a possible shape for a "receiver" for a collection of Heliostat "Transmitters".

Quote:

Quonset hut

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quonset_hut

Such a shape is not the only one that might be used, but it is a fair start.

With Starship, and space developments that are suggested by reading, I anticipate that we should not only be thinking of Mars, but of course Luna, Mercury, Ceres, and Callisto, to consider using these techniques at.

I would not rule out the used of an actual modified Quonset Hut but would divert in the direction or Roman Arches with brick-like materials.

Here are some images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ro … BasicHover

Of course, for different worlds and purposes, different profiles would be used.

Let's just start with one that is made of brick, and where it's ends point East and West.  As I have said, by no means is this the only option.

If this structure is mostly for energy, then I can suggest the following.

For the Moon, thick brick to hold heat, and "Feather Windows" at each end.  See my previous posts #127 and #133.
Solar Cells on the inside surfaces.
Anti-Solar Cells on the outside surface.
Heliostats in abundance to shine light into the windows at each end, during the Lunar Day.

For Mars it could be the same, but perhaps not as thick for the walls, because solar is ~24+ hours a "Day" except for dust storms.

So, then this thing is an electric source, and is its own battery.

Oh, I left out the Earth.  Well sure.....Canada, Alaska, (Boris Badin off) smile, Greenland?  and so on.

Lots of other places such as 49 other states, USA and whatever.

Now the windows are at this time described by me as being discrete feathers, or scales, if you like, as I fear thermal shock.  But I am guessing that eventually if desired proper windows can be created that can cope with size changes in the glass/Alon, with temperature.

If we were to try to grow plants inside of this structure, for Earth, it might be OK as is, but of course that will limit the energy production.

For high latitudes, maybe as a greenhouse in the warmer months, and energy only during colder months.

For the Moon and Mars, to make those windows pressure retaining, might be quite a task.  It might be better to put jars to grow plants in inside the structure.  Use a forklift to bring them in and out of a airlock, with people with SpaceX flight suits.  That is a possibility.

Or you could have one very big jar.  I am not sure how much pressure retention by way of gravitational counter pressure you might get from the brick arch.

It would certainly be nice if people could walk around in "Shirt Sleeves" inside of these.

I think that it should be stated that for the Moon we have almost absolute certainty of when the sun will shine, and how it will shine.

For Mars not so much.

I think this is a good start.  I hope I have not left much out.

For U.V. filtering, I suggest that the "Outer Feathers" let as much spectrum in as possible.  The inner ones then tinted to block U.V. and convert it to Infrared photons.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-08 11:19:51)


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#147 2022-01-11 09:06:54

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I have searched for the topic where Dr. Robert Zubrin might answer questions but did not find it.   But did not find it.

I guess I will put this here, and the moderators can do whatever it is they may want to do.

Quote: "Are We Martians?  With Dr. Robert Zubrin"......Event Horizon.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ar … &FORM=VIRE

One thing I really like is the talk about aircraft for Mars.

Helicopters

Rockets that entrain Martian atmosphere to assist in propulsion.

Done.


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#148 2022-01-11 20:04:09

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Well, I have a compulsion to hope to do something good, quite often.

I confess that I get rather puzzled and frustrated these days, as it seems possible to me that not nice people are actually feeding on the populace.  I don't like that.  To seek to take servants/slaves, to get into their heads and try to extract juices, so to speak like some sort of blood sucking insects???  Well, I think that there is some of that.  Patience though is required.  It is so easy to think oneself to be the victim, when in reality someone like me has had also fortune of some small value.  I will not go tilting towards windmills, with my old eyes going bad.

I was working on some other members efforts, when I got scared, that I had not thought correctly, but then had an insight, which very possibly others had already achieved.  In any case, there can be a chance for good.  The chance should be taken, I think.

I am thinking about Urea bricks.  Here there can be a problem as the shark minds may think that they have a verbal in.  Well, they don't.
Urea on Mars is a thing that we may want to manufacture, if the notion of we include the virtual "Me" who will likely be dead by that time.

These people are just weird, even though they pose to be the "Normal".  I feel that in time this will be understood, in the viewing of the past.
No big thing though.

The insight I feel I had was that Perchlorates on Mars seem to be reported to have Calcium in them.  So, when processed, they might emit Oxygen, perhaps with biology used, not sure.

So, I am not sure that Urea would be the only chemical that the microbes might enjoy, but in the Urea Bricks, Calcium is a need apparently.
I don't feel that the sensational articles have stressed that enough, but we might be lucky as what we might need for Mars may be quite available.

I have thought about putting fiber into 3D molded polygons of bio-bricks.  In this case, my interest is that these bricks will not have high heat and so organic fibers may be included into them.

I am currently thinking of some sort of "Roman Arch" where a square outer perimeter, had an arch or a circle "Vold" in it smile

Perhaps I will make some primitive drawings.  Anyway, there certainly could be other forms.  But I see these large "Blocks" to be pressed together to form pressurized spaces perhaps.

I will criticize some of the members as I think that they may not well enough understand the economics of production.  To find raw materials and turn them into a resource, and to use repetitive formations to solve needs.  Perhaps I am too harsh.

Still curse me or not, I hope I have touched on something useful.

smile

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-11 20:16:42)


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#149 2022-01-12 09:26:36

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I guess this morning I am thinking on glaciation, and also it seems to comment on a video about "Climate Change".  I just want to make some points, not engage in a war.


Quote:

Antarctica: 'What happens if the 'doomsday' glacier collapses?  Just have a think.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=An … &FORM=VIRE

I actually was going to deal with a video about rupturing glacial lakes.  They can be dammed by ice or moraines of stony rubble.
They can easily break and cause floods.

My interest in the lakes as you might suspect would be that on Mars if it is terraformed, then glaciers are pretty much going to be a common thing.  Good to know how to handle these things.

But.....Back to the "Just have a think" video.

I have had three things pop up in my mind on these issues this morning:

1) The global loops of currents he mentions are a system that could easily oscillate over time on their own.  However, I am not proposing that they are not at this time being affected by current events including human activities.

2) I am aware of feedback for Lake Superior in the seasonal cycle.  If the lake freezes over, then there is less evaporation, and the water levels tend to rise.  So, I am going to suppose that if more open water develops in Antarctica, then I expect more evaporation from exposed sea water, and so then likely more snow inland, which may tend to balance the sea level out. If warmer water emerges to the top, then there will be even more evaporations and snows.

3) Finally, it has occurred to me that for both Lake Superior, and Antarctica, the more exposed water vs. ice cover over water, the more photosynthesis, so this curiously should suck CO2 out of the atmosphere, and even perhaps Methane, both said to be greenhouse gasses.

I worked on production lines, and so feedback, and instrumentation at times in my life, and I like to be complete, and I am of the opinion that I can usually comprehend complexity in such systems.  I don't like to be incomplete.

Done

OK, so I had the wrong link for the "Just have a think" video.  I have corrected it now.


Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-12 09:36:42)


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#150 2022-01-13 21:23:28

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I am also thinking that a greater mobile ice of parts of Antarctica, and also very likely rivers of water and lakes under the ice will lead to a greater distribution of nutrients to the sea waters adjacent to Antarctica, and this should then promote the growth of Algae-Ect, and so sequester more CO2.

So, this feedback relationship would to a degree buffer the warming/melting of Antarctica.

It's likely a good thing.

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