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#101 2021-12-17 13:42:18

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I have started to think that both Earth and Mars have 3 poles.

For Earth, sometimes Tibet+ is considered a 3 (Alpine) pole.  Water from ice does feed big rivers.

For Mars, the Tharsis Uplift might seem to be a potential 3rd pole, but it is very unlikely to foster rivers of melt water.
How I now think of the Tharsis Uplift, is that it is a part of the Southern Hemisphere of Mars functionally.

And now, I am tending to think of the Valles Marineris as part of the Northern Hemisphere functionally, and yet perhaps along with
the surrounding higher terrain, a 3rd pole of Mars.

Here is the Wiki on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Marineris
A picture "Quote" from that is wonderful:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Ma … oom_64.jpg

So, that is beautiful!

I think I can see that indeed the whole thing resembles a drainage system.  If we could imagine cold air accumulating at night on the
high regions, and falling into the tributary canyons, I think it would be possible that updrafts from stored heat in the early night, and
early morning air warming on the northern plains, may draw air through the system.  Humidified air.  As the air pressurized, and then
further cooled, it might dump moisture into salty soil at some point.  And from that map, it looks like it could be just where they
found it.

So, I am thinking some things about terraforming.
It may be possible to draw moisture into the high atmosphere to try to create a high-altitude cloud layer.
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news … arly-mars/

So, then this could solve a problem.  Drawing moisture up from the polar caps to accomplish this with orbital mirrors, would be hard as
the orbits of the mirrors would be inconvenient for doing it.

But, if you had geosynchronous mirrors at locations where reflected sunlight could draw moisture into the high sky, this might work very well.  And you might be able to aim the light at solar power devices, and just rely on the heat that leaked of solar panels for instance, to create a major updraft which could suck moisture upwards.

Also what might be done is to concentrate heat from the sun/geo-mirrors, and boil water directly into the Martian atmosphere, to run turbines, with the intention of having the updraft pull the water vapors up to condense into high clouds.

And if it does happen that CO2 is prohibited from condensing into a solid in the Martian ice caps, then we might expect a mean pressure of 11 mb and a pressure in the rift valley of > 18 mBar in places.  Snowfalls are expected to be possible under those conditions.  And temporary streems.

The planet at that point would probably have a binary behavior.  The "South" being elevated, less pressure.  The "North" being at lower altitudes, more pressure and higher temperatures.  It may be that snow clouds will indeed find their way into the rift valley, and that at times, cold air currents will sink into the rift valley from the south.

I am liking it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-17 14:10:56)


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#102 2021-12-17 14:49:58

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Drying Laundry before a gym visit, so, I will continue.

So, this seems to be required due to certain stimulations today:
Li2Pavx.png

This above one, could easily be a swimming pool for humans, and by the way much of their bodies protected from radiation, perhaps even wet hair helping a bit.

Or it could be a duckweed farm.  In that case pressure could be lower for the "Air Pocket".
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 9318302295
Quote:

Highlights

Consumers were generally positive towards duckweed as human food.


Duckweed was considered a vegetable and seen as fitting in meals when consumers expect vegetables.


Acceptability of duckweed was higher in fitting meals.


Positive nutrition and environmental information decreased acceptability of non-fitting meals.

So, perhaps a "Bulk/goop" food.  That is I think that on Mars indeed people will want enough calories, but might be partial to Earth
foods.  Although duck weed seems to be becoming one.

Ground up, duck weed might be an additive to other foods, maybe 3D printed foods.

It stands as true, I believe, that this type of farming could be highly automated, and access to the greenhouse/solar collector could be
through a liquid airlock.

Here are some other options:  http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7327

In there you will find various things.  Hydrilla, Algae, Cyanobacteria, and Nemo's gardens.

Hydrilla:
chPgwCp.png

You will notice that the "Dome" does not need to apply very much internal pressure at all.  The Hydrilla bag will be under pressure and due to that can have the needed dissolved gasses in it.

And again Nemo's gardens:
http://www.nemosgarden.com/
Quote:

Nemo's Garden: the first ever
underwater cultivation of
terrestrial plants.

All of these also could be accessed with a liquid airlock, and the covering dome would not need to hold a high differential pressure.

I do approve of Mirrors and Heliostats, as there are no law about it, and they can be beneficial to humans on Mars.

All of these "Gardens" can also double as thermal collectors, and also the Heliostats could be re-aimed at times to produce very high temperatures for some industrial process, not directly related to gardens.

Dryers done.

Done.

OOPS!  Yes a fully pressurized greenhouse without mirror or Heliostat assistance could be put on top of the ice-covered lake, and accessed through a liquid airlock.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-17 15:28:38)


Done.

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#103 2021-12-17 19:40:57

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Since I seem to be a skunk at a garden party, I guess I might as well enjoy myself.

Here is a nice picture:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

It seems to be a vison of a ancient "Blue Mars".   While it is inspiring, it does seem to show how there are two faces to Mars.  The low altitude mostly Northern Mars, and the high altitude mostly Southern Mars.

We are not well enough informed about the source and depth of the water in the Canyon, but if it turns out to be a settlement grade quantity,
then I change my mind about how to terraform Mars.

I have started to promote the use of Ballistic Capture: Earth/Moon>Mars, Hohmann Transfer Mars>Earth, as I think it can better support the dual habitation of both Mars and it's orbits.

If you look at the rift valley, it is obvious that with orbital mirrors in the equatorial plane not only can portions of the canyon system be warmed up, but also the mirrors might shine light on the two moons, if that were of benefit.  And it might be that they could be useful in powering spacecraft to some degree.

So, suppose the terraform method would be to elevate water vapor into the high sky to try to form greenhouse effect clouds.  Also some greenhouse gasses to be produced and released.

And Elon Musk's flash nukes might be used at the poles to speed things up.

The water to put into the high sky could actually come from mid latitude ice bodies to conserve what is in the rift valley.  The equatorial mirrors should be able to reach their focus to those places.

The flash bombs of course would as said before start dealing with the ice caps.

And solar collection equipment above the ground would protect the ground from warming up.  Instead it would intercept light from the sun and the orbital mirrors, and produce much energy.

The use of glass greenhouses might work out, although many plants want a night time.  Shades, I guess.

The point is parts of the rift valley could be eternally lighted, to receive lots of solar power.  Up to the point that it might disrupt the water supply.

The hope might be that indeed it will be possible to maintain artesian water resources.

Where I was afraid that an atmospheric pressure of 18 to 333 mBars would still allow deep killing frosts, if the rift valley could have a good water supply, and also continuous lighting, I think that it could have a highly accelerated industrial development, and agriculture under glass, with less trouble from cold winters and the cold of night.

Then eventually, it might be possible to bring polar water from the South Pole into the rift valley and make it very much even more Habitable.

Later on, perhaps Hellas could hold a controlled sea, but the rift valley would be much easier to master.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-17 20:04:36)


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#104 2021-12-19 11:10:28

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Sandstone on Mars:
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasas-cur … ab-on-mars

https://www.universetoday.com/144709/th … beautiful/

I guess it should be no surprise that the Rift Valley would have collected wind and water borne sediments.

Sandstone Caves:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=sa … BasicHover

Carved Sandstone Caves:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ca … BasicHover

So, modified Sandstone may represent a raw material to turn into the resource "Pressurized/Modified" volumes.

I think much of the Sandstone of Mars has been identified in low latitudes.  This may be due to a history of water, or also perhaps may be due to ice layers and other sediments hiding Sandstone deposits at higher latitudes.

There are various types of sandstone, some are soft and some harder.  They have a tendency to be porous, so in order to pressurize them, I expect that some kind of sealant will be needed.  That should not be an enormous problem.

However, it may be necessary to have methods of egress to safety, in case they might depressurize.  I think it will depend a lot on the nature of the sandstone formations.

There are those who are repelled by the idea of living in caves on Mars, but I would make the case that floorspace for industrial activities, and storage, would be great assets.  Also perhaps places where sports games could be played.

Some member(s) think that glass greenhouses are the best place to grow plant food.  I don't stand against that.  If anything turns out to work, then that is likely a thing to do.

But I will make a case for drilling from above to make caves in sandstone and using mirrors and light tubes to get light into those chambers.  It is very possible that that also could work.  I would think Alon would be the first thing to look at as windows for such constructions.

------

Well, not surprising, I came across an article that suggested that the standard extreme life protection protocol's must be enforced, for the "icy" areas of the Rift Valley.  Here we go again.  If it can possibly support life, it is too sensitive, so we may not send probes there.

Of course, I disagree totally.  I take Dr. Robert Zubrin's thinking on the matter as a reference.
-----

What follows here is my own thinking.  We have to be very careful in dealing with Rightest and Leftist thinkers, at apex positions.  We have them in the USA, but even more are outside of the USA historically.

We have examples of both of them having slave labor camps.  We should be careful to resist being their "Food".

They are in love with their positions of power over the "Commoners".  To them a Glorius reality is where they can command the commoners to be their servants.  So, they really don't want free thinking people escaping from their grasp.  They want to "Eat" us.

------

Having spoken rebellion, so that my ancestors will be pleased, I will suggest a possible compromise.  I would not intentionally spit on a possible place where life might be found on Mars.  I would be tolerant of a reasonable progression of exploration.

In order to go beyond LEO, then the Tanker Starships must exist, and have entry and landing methods that work, in order to be reused, in a way that lowers flight costs.  Of course, Elon Musk and SpaceX also want to support LEO activities to get money to stay solvent.

Many people are now getting interested in Starship as a space probe method.  Also Telescopes.

I would suggest sending a stripped-down Starship with instrumentation to Mars.  No Heat Shield, no Landing Legs.

Lots of solar panels, as they could be attached to it in LEO.

To do this a Ballistic Capture method would be needed, if indeed that can work.

It could indeed have radar, to study places on Mars, and also the moons Phobos and Deimos.

I would also hope for "Harpoon Probes" for Phobos and Deimos, that can detect and perhaps also produce sound waves, maybe measure electrical potentials.  Sonar?  But the tidal forces of orbiting around Mars and the gravity of the Sun may produce sound waves in the materials.

And then, possibly clones of space probes that have already been sent to the Martian surface, reasonably sterilized, but also with more propellant so as to make a more active entry and landing, so then to have better precision, and to possibly land in the Valles Marineras.
https://science.nasa.gov/valles-mariner … anyon-mars

Note:  If Ballistic Capture is possible, this could be sent to Mars earlier than then next window for Hohmann transfer methods, does not need a heat shield, and as it is not to land does not need legs.

Done.

Oh! I forgot to mention, not sky diver flaps, or motors for them so that lightens it up a bit as well and leaves more room for instruments.
And those do not have to be inside the ship, as it would not use aerobraking.  They could simply be attached to its outside.

Done. Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-19 12:04:13)


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#105 2021-12-19 13:08:32

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,770

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Casey Handmer makes the case that for factory units on Mars, as on Earth, the most practical geometry is large 2D surfaces, with area running into acres.  This implies large ETFE sheets, reinforced with kevlar and regularly anchored to the ground with load bearing cables.  The same arrangement would work for agriculture as well.

https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019 … ver-rated/

In the first decades, we will be building up industrial capacity as quickly as possible to reduce dependency on imports from Earth.

I and others have made the case in the past that extruded basalt fibres provide more strength per unit energy than steel.  Also, plastics are vulnerable to scratching from Martian dust grains, which would gradually degrade their transparency.  So glass panels in a steel frame, with basalt fibre reinforcement and anchoring, would be the best option for transparent structures.  But transparency is only of value if we intend to grow stuff.  For housing and factory areas, a simple steel frame, covered with loose rocks and then soil would counteract internal pressure.  Kind of like a homemade cave.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-19 13:26:33)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#106 2021-12-19 18:29:29

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Good stuff Calliban.

Of course I am going to try to both cozy up to the notions, interpret them my way, and also I will offer concerns, which may or may not be justified.  But I do like it.  If it can be done, at a good cost, then of course that will be about as Earth normal as we could hope to get.

But, let me assert, that I don't like binary analysis.  Sort of when two groups of thugs slug it out, and decide thumbs up for one and thumbs down for the other.  I don't think that is what you intended.

Fire, Wind, Water, Earth.

So, he wants to capture the power of the wind in a large bag.  OK.  Not against it at all.  If can do, then I want a plot of land also, at least in my imagination.

Things I think about PTFE:
-Life about 30+ years.
-Can be recycled apparently.
-If in salts(Water), as the edges might be, metal ions can cause it to deteriorate.

But still, if it were available and I was on Mars, I would want to use it myself.
I think a guy named "Fogg" had a notion of glassing over large portions of Mars, a true brain I believe.  I think he has moved to other things now though.

The author of the article, indicated the PTFE could be manufactured on Mars along with Steel, from the raw materials found there.  That sounds like a reach at this time.  Of course it would require a method before the method to get enough infrastructure built to make things like PTFE, and the quality of Steel needed.  Not knocking it.  I wish to be proven wrong.

It does look like it could make more sense than most locations to put synthetic gravity machines at, provided the human can be healthy at .38 g.  Eventually, I expect that space medicine will make that possible.  But not necessarily soon.

If Musk and Bezos somehow had a stupid kid together, (Bad picture), it might be persons like me.  I am in favor of synthetic gravity machines in orbit of Mars and in association with the moons of Mars.

But I am also supportive of any and all ways to pressurize a volume and also improve it per human needs, on Mars.
If this turns out to be the thing, then don't expect me to weep.

PTFE does not block U.V. particularly well, which apparently is good on Earth, but perhaps not so good on Mars.  So, that might be an issue.

He makes a case for radiation protection that seems rather good.  I would like to try to add to it.  For bedtime, have a waterbed.  This might reduce secondary radiation.  Also have an aquarium above your bed.  That is sort of a Spacenut notion, from a bit of time back.  Of course the tank above your bed should not collapse on you, but also perhaps something green could grown in it.  It would help a bit, and maybe if there is a solar flare could that help?

-----

I believe that there may be a difference between Western and China thinking.  Western tends to buck the trend and China as I recall reading tries to Harmonize with it.

Putting the wind in a bag, sort of opposes what Mars wants.
Putting liquid water under ice, and then useful devices in that, is bucking what Mars wants, but comes closer, perhaps to a harmony.

I guess the reason that people don't build so much in caves and underwater, is that they do not live on Mars.

PTFE, could be used in and on the ice of a body of water.

I will make the case that a PTFE bubble would not have to be very thick to cover an area of ice in pressure that was enough to keep it from sublimating.  Where in Antarctica, ice covered lakes only get a small percentage of light though the ice, the ice often has diffusing air bubbles in it and is quite thick.  In the situation of low pressure in a bubble, air bubbles can be quite limited, I think, and also the ice thickness can be considerably less.

More light can be sent by way of Heliostat mirrors and mirrors.

And it may bell be possible to have thin bubbles of ETFE under the ice containing water or maybe even air.

So, some types of agriculture that way.

Although not as nice as the wonderful notions that you have made available, it might be effective/efficient, useful.

But I am open minded on all this.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-19 18:59:24)


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#107 2021-12-20 12:27:53

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I have been wondering about unfolding landing legs, that could be either in the engine bell, or more likely like a backpack on the leeward side of a Starship.  Probably will need a metal container, to protect the legs from heat.  I am thinking that the legs will preferentially be made of ETFE, and will be one time use, along with the metal protective shell.

The reason would be as ETFE is likely to be very useful on Mars in the early days, and it seems unlikely that it can be effectively manufactured in those early days on Mars.

I realize there will be heat issues with the landing rocket plumes, that needs figuring out.  However, this way we don't need to care that much is the legs are partially deformed on landing as they will be recycled on Mars for their material.

For return to Earth, we are anticipating a catcher tower, so the Starship may not need to legs, so why pay to lift the legs to orbit and then to Earth?

In my view, if Ballistic Capture were used to deliver most hardware, then it makes sense to fly a Starship up and down in the gravity well, many times, as the stress to enter from Low Martian Orbit is less than to enter from interplanetary space.  So, perhaps such a starship might make 10??? flights before heading back to Earth?

And such delivery methods could indeed involve alternate propulsive methods, Earth/Moon>Mars, such as electric propulsion.  The whole delivery ship could be taken apart, for the solar panels, and cargo, and flown down to the surface of Mars, and each Starship trip down to the surface would see the use of a fresh instance of the ETFE legs, to leave behind.

I am of course looking for shortcuts.

Starship will be wonderful, but I guess I don't think that Earth/Moon>Mars>Earth, is the most effective use of a Starship for most of the cases.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-20 12:36:04)


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#108 2021-12-21 13:34:16

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I have been thinking about the ETFE, and will likely comment some more about it.

For now though, I want to view this, see what it's slant is:
Canyon Water:
https://www.microsoftnewskids.com/en-us … hp&pc=U531

Might be for Kids.  That's OK.

Done.


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#109 2021-12-21 17:07:58

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I am increasingly pleased that Callibban brought in the materials of his post #105.

While the materials needed sort of leave me wanting for confirmed method to get, what they could do, is a great prize to wish to have.  And it would be good to seek that prize.

From the description of the Hydrogen deposits in the Rift Valley, it seems possible that it will be permafrost with dry dirt above it.

If true, then perhaps water and permafrost ice might be better to seal the bubble into the ground on it's edges.

Where to get the Fluorine?  Don't know.  Maybe salts in an aquifer?

But I will presume that that problem will be solved.  The Steel?  Maybe new tech?  I think it might be possible.
Vacuum deposition.  The European Oxygen generator does also, it thought, create alloys.

The question of quality.  I guess low quality gives low results, typically.

A bubble covering a lake with ice on it, would need only small pressure.

To go to a full Earth sea level pressure seems overkill on the other end of a curve.

In that case, drop the pressure to the minimal N2/O2 mix that will serve human comfort.

For the icy pond, I have offered notions.  Further chambers under the water, in which greater productivity might
be possible.

As for U.V. penetrating the bubbles, that is not all bad.  I would help keep things sterile.  So, you would then need some
U.V. blocker for your gardens.

70 mBar is of course too low for human to not boil, but of course might allow gardens.

An interesting option would be to have waterways in it, so that a "Boat" with robot arms, or human in protective suit.

That could allow protected movements.  Crops could be of shallow water, or ditches with elevated soil for gardens of
dry land plants.

It is not so surprising that I would think that some habitat would be of lower pressure and some higher.  But, that would  be tested by reality.

I think I can let this go for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-21 17:58:40)


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#110 2021-12-22 03:18:13

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,770

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I believe that the second image in post #102 is close to being an optimised arrangement.  The purpose of the bubble is to prevent Martian fines from contaminating the ice (which would block sunlight) and also prevent sublimed water from the top of the ice from escaping.  For much of the day in the location you are intending, the atmospheric pressure is above vapour pressure for ice at any temperature beneath freezing.  What we are trying to do is prevent evaporation, by keeping a layer of saturated air above the ice.

Problems with this arrangement are: (1) Abrasive damage to the polymer, gradually turning it translucent; (2) Static charge accumulation, resulting in sticking of Martian fines, again degrading transparency; (3) UV damage to the polymer; (4) Water vapour condensing as ice on the inside of the polymer, weighing down the bubble and eventually bursting it.

The solutions in this case aren't easy.  One option would to use a low cost polyethylene material for the bubble and simply accept finite life as a limitation.  The cover doesn't need to be heavily pressurised, so this may be an acceptable compromise.  Could we get 1 year out of it before it needed replacement?  To remove static accumulated fines, we could wash the exterior with water droplets.  That would work.  The water would evaporate rapidly and freeze, but that may take enough seconds for the water to do its work.  Any ice stuck to the outer surfaces would sublime.  Another possible solution is a glass cover in a steel frame.  Again, this doesn't need to be pressurised.  It needs to be abrasion resistant and UV resistant.  It also needs enough strength to tolerate some degree of ice accumulation on the inside.  We could deal with this problem by adding heating elements to the glass, much like car windscreens, but doing that adds cost.

Additional: Can we devise a mobile heating arrangement, whereby once a week say, an attendant visits with a heating blanket and the ice is removed by 10 minutes of heating?  This is really about finding a cost optimum solution, I think.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-22 03:30:55)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#111 2021-12-22 08:08:04

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

That's all of interest Calliban.

For my part I like diagram #1, of post #102, as a swimming pool/Duck Weed farm.

When the duckweed was harvested, then a remainder could be temporarily put into a container, for reseeding, and so then a swimming pool.  A "Natural" level of cleaning for the people, and some exposure to sunlight, some radiation
protection for the body by the water of the swimming pool.  Perhaps a couple of times a week.  Else a quick shower draining into the duckweed pond.  Condensation, from the walls of the bubble, collected as "Fresh".

But, as to the second drawing of #102, it is schematic in nature more so than for complete structural description.
We could have a pancake bubble, filled with a fluid or clear ice, and lay that on top of transparent ice/water.  Sealing the edges, into the permafrost, and also further methods of protection to keep the ice outside the bubble at the edges, from evaporating.  Perhaps a bit like cuticle for a fingernail?  So, not really an air filled dome, rather a "Pancake" bubble, lying flat.  We may then melt the pancake, provided that we can protect the outside permafrost from evaporation.  We may degas the fluid inside the pancake bubble, to reduce the opacity which might be produced by air bubbles.

I like the Imperial unit, Foot, as for Mars it ~Relates to 10 mBar of pressure.  So, if your pancake were 2 feet thick, that adds 20 mBar of pressure.  It works for "Dirty" approximate thinking.  The strengths of this are that you can melt the pancake bubble periodically, if that helps to clarify the "Ice Window".  You might also melt the pond ice under the pancake bubble "Window", but of course have to be very careful about that around the edges of the window.  In this proposed method, I think some of the problems you defined are partially solved. 

But more will be needed to adapt to the Martian environments that might offer some mercy.

We want films that can endure, and we want methods, to even protect the films in the harsh Martian environment.

We might go back is try to find Seadragons, comments on the matter.  I don't remember if that is the members proper name spelling.  He proposed some sort of film/polymer, which did not involve Fluorine, and yet he felt it might endure rather well.  We might see if we can find it.  I am about to ramp up for Christmas, so not now for me.

For harsh situations "Layering" is a method of adaptation.  We have:
-Fish with a skin covered by scales, and also slime.
-Lizards, skin, then scales.
-Penguin, skin, feathers.

So, we may want a "Frame of scales", to protect the ice window.  We could easily say "Glass Dome", and would be very  well within the needs of the concept.  But for the sake of "Seeing" what we are trying to accomplish, lets consider a wire mesh "Dome" or "Cylinder", or "Cube", or "Tetrahedron" if you like.  And lets hang glass "Scales" on it to form an enclosure of scales above the "Pancake Ice Window".  The "Scales" will be abrasion protective, for the ice window's skin, and also could include U.V. sunscreen of some type.  If hung by hooks from a "Chicken Wire" frame, then you might visualize this.  Easy replacement of each "Scale".  Possibly cleanable by blasts of air, possibly you might actually take them off and "Wash" them periodically, by some means.  Some sort of "Dish Washing Robot" wanted for that.

But dirt would accumulate on top of the ice window, so a cleaning method for that also needed.

So, sort of "Getting there", but, a frame with glass windows (Scales) might keep dust out better.  I am thinking possibly of "Glass Scales" that will be easy to remove and wash, once in a while, but a frame with windows that might keep quite a lot of dust out of the enclosure, and off of the skin of the "Ice Window".

And that is to my thinking, "Almost There", "Sort of Have It".

But having done all that work we face the fact that Mars sunlight is attenuated by distance from the sun, and probability that the apparatus will also not be completely transparent.  So a lot of work done for a little bit of light.

Lets add more light with Heliostats.  Mirrored surfaces in the enclosure situated to receive and reflect light from Heliostats.  Intensity?  Well, up to the point of tolerance of the structure(s), and projection of the maximum amount that the plant life can use.

Here again we might have an enclosure for living things, inside of a transparent bag, under the water, under the ice window, under the "Scaled Frame".

I hope you like the above.  Now, I think you may understand that I think there may be real loopholes that could allow agricultural productivity, and yet systems adapted to the harsh reality of even the more merciful places on Mars.

I hope to see some feedback about this.  Very willing for suggestions from members.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-22 08:47:42)


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#112 2021-12-22 10:17:17

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

OK, I found something from SeaDragon: "Index» Human missions» Construction technology for Mars?" Post #167.
Quote:

louis,

Casey Handmer is amazing but I'd like to add a technical fix to that fluorine access problem for ETFE.

The call for ETFE is based on the impression that UV damage would destroy other types of plastic which is not necessarily true - it's mostly the production of oxygen based free radicals that causes the issue (for quick reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photo-oxi … f_polymers ). If you can stop oxygen from inside diffusing into the plastic then UV degradation is greatly reduced and the inclusion of hindered amine light stabilisers (HALS) as copolymers, even making up as little as 0.25% of the total plastic, this can be greatly reduced yet further.

So:
- With a thin layer of something like poly(ethyl vinyl alcohol), usually written EVOH, the majority of oxygen transmission into a plastic habitat skin can be stopped
- A small amount of HALS copolymers stops initial free radical compounds made just after UV absorption in the plastic from propagating and leads to spectacular decreases in corrosion rates before any oxygen that does get through can make things worse.

With these fixes we can just use PET or a similarly cheap and easily produced plastic with no crazy elements like fluorine needed at all.
If we reinforce with basalt fibre (very nearly as good as Keflar but far far cheaper than Keflar) instead of Keflar or equivalent we'd be able to build this sort of thing at an industrial scale using only the resources we have on hand + a few low mass imported extras like HALS copolymers, accounting for perhaps 400 tonnes of plastic per 1 tonne of HALS or something.

Last edited by SeaDragon (2020-08-01 09:14:35)

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I will go to a new post here, to continue back to a broader vision about Mars, and Ice Armor/Ice Cover/Water/Soil bottom notions for Mars.

I for one would not mind seeing SeaDragon return here.

To the next post>>>>

Last edited by Void (2021-12-22 10:25:42)


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#113 2021-12-22 10:26:15

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Why my obsession with Ice Covered Water?

Well, the places on Earth where we go to get many Mars analog situations are polar.  And there are ice covered bodies of water in many cases.  That can give a clue.  If we are ever to get to a "Green" Mars, which has to come before a "Blue" Mars, then we need to master a polar glacial environment(s).

Early Mars very likely generated ice covered "Solar/geothermal" lakes and seas, as some of the last habitable areas on, (Actually Near), the surface areas.  In those days, it is likely there were solar snow melts to fill up the lakes, and salts to keep very cold water from freezing to the bottom, and also geothermal heat under ice sheets would create under ice "Rivers" to fill up ice covered bodies of water.  Under some circumstances, it would be possible to have had such ice covered lakes prior to a more dead surface where habitability would have been strongly reduced.

At this time geothermal is strongly reduced in magnitude, and also greenhouse effect is strongly reduced.

Typical current schemes to terraform Mars involve warming the atmosphere.  But the Universe wants to suck heat out of the atmosphere, so to a large degree that is futile.  Not without value but not the best method, in my opinion.

Elon Musk's flash bombs, would do that, but might also even melt ice inside the polar caps, and so roll back to a more young Mars.  So, it may have merit.  However the heat given to the atmosphere would soon disperse into the universe.
However melted water under ice would retain heat longer, and so temperatures life can dwell in, longer.  So, the trick, in part, is to tuck heat under ice in the form of liquid water, either fresh or salty.

So, the more recent posts, here, and also other posts, suggest that we might build "Light Portholes" that could endure, the Martian environment, if reasonable maintenance were applied by humans and their machines.  It seems reasonable that Visible and U.V. light could be, "Ported into ice covered bodies of water", by these means, or methods similar.

Of course the U.V. is lethal to life to a large degree, but it is a heat source.  Means to give protections to living things have been already considered as options.

Additionally, I have wanted to associate industry with ice covered bodies of water, as the waste heat can be rejected into them to some degree.   Solar power towers with heat engines may do this as well, where the conservation of water resources are a priority, which would be a case in low latitudes.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-22 10:43:45)


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#114 2021-12-22 10:43:25

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,770

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I would agree with Sea Dragon's assessment.  I wasn't aware that it was actually oxygen radicals that do most of the damage to PE when exposed to UV.  If this is true, and I've no reason to doubt it, then we may not have too many problems with PE degradation on Mars.  Again, no structure lasts forever.  We make polytunnels for agriculture here on Earth.  When they fail due to storms and sun damage, we replace them.  It is a cost, but a tolerable one.  Farmers wouldn't keep doing it otherwise.

Ice covered ponds are attractive because they allow us to grow food and biomass without heavily engineered, pressurised structures.  One problem is that water itself is quite an energy intensive substance on Mars, because of the sheer amount of energy needed to melt it out of the regolith and carry out desalination in the first place.  But that energy is for the most part, low grade heat.  On Earth we often treat that heat as a waste product and dump it into cooling towers.  Apparently, it will have a use on Mars.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#115 2021-12-22 10:50:37

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

All agreed.  If we get to the poles we can vent water vapor to the atmosphere from heat engines, but lower latitudes suggest that we will use ice covered bodies of water as radiators.  In many cases some minimal "Ice Armor" will be required to inhibit evaporation of the ice.

So, in my little world, I think we find a plot of land, where more mercy is available, to start up, and then all the way to control the water ice of the polar ice caps, as they are, after all giant "Heat Sinks".

And we do likely have the option of orbital power distributions to the "Surface/Under Ice".

And for ice covered water solar is not the only possible source of energy, we may do Chemicals, and life, using solar and Nuclear.

We might even choose to liquify Korolev crater, with Hydrogen bombs.  Then it might generate greenhouse gasses.  I think that if that were done, most of the "Fallout" would sink to the bottom and not circulate to the broader Martian environment.  However, that needs lots of looking into.

I gotta go for a while.

Done.


Done.

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#116 2021-12-22 10:59:16

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,770

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Louis introduced the possibility of using thin layers of translucent silica aerogel to warm patches of ground and promote outgassing.  That was in support of terraforming.  We could use silica aerogel covers for the top of the ponds.  On the outside, temperatures average -60°C.  Under the cover, you have a layer of accumulated gases and then liquid water.  At low temperatures, the vapour pressure of water isn't much higher than Mars ambient.  If you want the water warmer, then use the aerogel as a sandwiched layer between the ice above and water beneath.  That way, the ice provides overpressure.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-22 11:00:01)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#117 2021-12-22 13:30:36

SpaceNut
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Allowing the barrier to move upward from the ground but still maintain a seal is the key to transforming Mars for more plants and eventual man plus animals. We only need that magical height to be 3 meters at most in the occupied areas with anything above that being a bonus. Once we have achieved partial pressure we compress any increase of artificial atmosphere for later expansion of Mars atmosphere later.

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#118 2021-12-22 14:17:22

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Well not wrong depending on the results desired, and the additional support to achieve such visions, Calliban and Spacenut.

Aerogel will collapse in the presence of moisture and is fragile.  But I absolutely don't want to rule out a component.  If I did, then it is sure, that someone will find a way they would like to use it effectively, and it could even be "Future Me".  smile

Spacenut.  If I understand, Calliban's current thinking we are thinking of facilities both above and below permafrost.  So, what you indicated is correct for the "Above Permafrost".

Permafrost can be dry or icy and may or may not be salty.  Pretty much all ground on Mars that we are aware of is permafrost.

I believe that these various components and the various ways to combine and use them are becoming a body of method which most closely relates to Optics.

Done for a bit.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-22 14:20:26)


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#119 2021-12-22 14:31:59

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I feel like I want to point out that Mars being different from Earth is not always a bad thing.

While it might be reasonable to have ice windows to inject reflected light into a liquid domain, we may also inject a heated fluid.  I think in your case Calliban, if you were to deal with solar thermal, you would like to use CO2.  Perhaps even supercritical, from a solar power tower.
Then to dump the heat into a lake covered by ice and ice armor.

So, it is very easy to push heat into a body of water on Mars, harder to get light in, and even harder to get light in and also handle the U.V. spectrum.

But now, if a like is to be a radiator for the solar power tower, first you quench the heat into the water to generate power, either electrical or mechanical (I have been paying attention), then you rely on natural leakage to dissipate the heat either into the sky or into the ground.

So, where aerogel might heat up the ground and release greenhouse gasses, using imperial, I can say that 39 degF is easily achievable for the bottom of a lake, and the water will conduct heat into the ground much faster.

If it is a lake with salt gradients, we can have room temperature or even close to 180 degF on the bottom if we like.  And that is a form of energy storage as well.

For dissipation into the sky, we wonder about the ice cover and ice armor?

How about a snow maker and some reflective foil if you want to hold heat in?  I am pretty sure this would work OK at higher latitudes not so sure about the Rift Valley, but maybe.

So, then you may protect the ice, and retain heat better, if that is your desire.  At higher latitudes where ice is abundant, then you might vent steam of water to the atmosphere as a heat sink.  It only goes to the high atmosphere or back to the poles.

I think it could be possible as well that some time far to the future, sun synchronous power satellites or mirrors, may melt the ice caps, with the result that the North cap turns into an ice-covered sea, and the south cap makes rivers, and the rivers/aqueducts/tunnels, gush water into the Rift Valley and Hellas, generating Hydro-electric power, and making them fertile.

I have mentioned that I think we could ward off night frosts in the Rift Valley, by using mirrors to not allow night.  With a higher air pressure, perhaps vascular plants, specially genetically altered, to adapt might be farmed there, or at least under a glaze of glass or plastic film.

I think those goals are not too bad.

A thing I like about mirrors is, that they can swing about.  Point them at a power tower.  Point them at a greenhouse.  Point them at Kiln.
Point them at a solar pannel.

It is like an electrical switch yard for energy.

Done.

Oh, the thing about foil covered snow, is that it is somewhat a "Vacuum Snow", should hold heat very well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-22 14:47:06)


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#120 2021-12-24 10:01:37

Void
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Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Calliban, could you help me out?

I know you recently posted some materials about the use of a water based hydraulic power system(s) that used to be used.  At the time, I did not know that I would be more interested.  I have searched and not found it.

I am becoming interested in that and drive shafts, and other older technologies, which may have been replaced with "Modern" methods, because in entering a new frontier, methods strait out of the 21st century may not be the best options for Mars, as booting up a new technological economy might not be best served by methods currently in use in the so called 1st world.   Sometimes yes, sometimes no, is my guess.

As I am obsessed with water filled lakes anyway, and those being ice covered, non-electric methods may serve well in some circumstances. 

I have previously been interested in "Drive Shafts", and "Pneumatics" in addition to "Electrical".  However, of course water hydraulic seems like it might fit in rather well.

Thanks in advance.

Done.

Somewhat connectable to that would be the possibility of: https://www.energy.gov/eere/water/pumpe … hydropower

I see that as having real potential in the Rift Valley, as it has altitude variations of a much greater magnitude than other locations.  It also may have sedimentary rock layers, that could be carved.  I am thinking of pumped water, but also could there eventually be steam up to a carved system as a condenser, and water down from the carved cave system.

In such a case, then power storage, and also using the caves to grow food, either chemosynthetic or by LED's, or both.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-24 10:14:46)


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#121 2021-12-24 12:35:41

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,770

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Void, here is the link.
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2016/03 … works.html

Hydraulic and Pneumatic systems both transfer power via pressurised fluids moving through pipework.  Pneumatics tend to be used for hand tools, where a lot of power-weight is needed.  They obviously don't need return lines, as the fluid is vented directly into air.  Pneumatic tools are also simpler to make than electric tools, requiring only a turbine on a single bearing.  On the down side, they are relatively inefficient in their use of energy.  Most of the energy is wasted as heat in the compressor.

Hydraulics are a good way of transferring energy, where power requirements are high, but total energy requirements more modest, I.e huge power, maintained for a short time.  In principle, you could supply steady loads using hydraulics, provided your power supply adjusts to demand.  Hydraulics can balance unmatched time constants.  For example, it might take time to ramp up power output from a nuclear reactor.  But you need to activate a machine that draws several MW of power instantaneously.  Hydraulic systems require return lines for fluid, but that isn't a problem for stationary machines.  Hydraulic power could certainly simplify a lot of machinery built on Mars.  Many purely mechanical functions can be powered in this way.  Things like cranes can be entirely hydraulic in their energy supply, though being able to use solenoid actuated valves would probably be a better system overall.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-24 12:44:06)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#122 2021-12-24 19:43:34

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Thanks Calliban.  Seems like a piece of the puzzle that I did not realize might be missing.

By the way, have what ever happiness, is considered appropriate for your cultural background.  I am sort of a Christmas, sort myself.  So thanks to giving me what I requested.

I really think that combinations of these things may really work well for Mars.  With the Rift Valley, should it turn out that a settlement can be established, then the scale of the vertical is small and then very large.

I have had some curious thinking about energy and the atmosphere of Mars.  After all that which is high in the Martian atmosphere is suborbital, and yet has altitude.  So, it has three components of energy in my opinion.  You have 1) Altitude of the Molecule, 2) Motion of the Molecule.  (It either is bouncing off of the lower denser atmosphere, or coming back down and gathering speed for the next bounce), (Except if it jumps out of the Martian gravity well)., or 3) Has molecular vibration.  And of course all of these three interact.

So, I have imagined that it might be possible to force condense components of the high Martian atmosphere, at a high location, perhaps Olympus Mons, and run the fluid down a conduit, and generate electricity, and then use solar energy to heat the fluid, and expel it to the atmosphere at a lower location.  Or it might be flashed to the atmosphere to partially become vapor and solids, for instance if it were CO2.  In that case the dry ice produced might condense water from the atmosphere.

That might be set up some time a very long time from now.

But more practical might be a water cycle, in the Canyon, where you could size it to the level of development of the settlement(s).  But eventually, a vertical energy cycle, water boiled, vapor expelled into a vertical borehole in the canyon walls, caverns at the altitude practical at that stage of development, then accumulated condensed water then to be dropped down other vertical tubes. 

As I said in a previous post, that water can then perhaps be endowed with life supporting energy sources, chemicals, and perhaps also artificial lighting, after all, by the way energy of boiling, and also of water column.  Along the way, if you can run parts of your production from hydraulic water and also perhaps in appropriate cases, drive shafts, this seems sensible, rather than to do several magnetic/electric transitions as method.

I do in fact also visualize how to do the polar ice caps and the whole planet.

And I do have family, just they went away now.  Tomorrow more other family smile sad smile

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-24 20:00:22)


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#123 2021-12-25 11:42:45

Void
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Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Stumbled on this today, want to capture it.

CO2 "Permanent" ice cap......
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Mars+Thic … e23b686201
Picture quote:
https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/jvUoq … 0.jpg.webp

So, I guess the Valles Marineris (Rift Valley) may be indicating a place where we might hope to get shelter from the brutal nature of Mars, the South Polar CO2 deposits, are the thing which needs to be manipulated as a very important element in the quest to control the planet to Terraforming.

One interesting but very advanced thing I can think of is if somehow the CO2 could be heated to generate electricity, by expansion of gasses.  That would be very direct and hands on.  I know some members have speculated on it, I think for the seasonal caps.  However if it were possible to tunnel under the CO2 and to inject heat, maybe that way as well.  However that is half baked.  I don't think it would be the only thing done to the planet.  However one way to alter the Albedo of the ice deposits would be to collect the sun energy which would otherwise be reflected into space, and somehow generate power and heat up the CO2.

It needs a lot of work.

I really just want the picture and article so to simulate thinking.

The polar ice that is exposed above "Dirt" is really a small area, and then the area of the permanent CO2 deposits is smaller than that by far, so, just maybe some type of local heating might be a useful contribution.

X2 atmospheric pressure possible, with a potential cascade of CO2 coming out of the regolith of Mars, if it heats up from the atmosphere, or liquid water deposits over large areas.  Of course you know how I think by now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-25 11:54:21)


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#124 2021-12-25 12:58:14

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 9,905

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

For Void re #123

Rather than introduce a disturbance into the rich flow of your thinking, I would ask you to expand upon this line of thoughts:

However one way to alter the Albedo of the ice deposits would be to collect the sun energy which would otherwise be reflected into space, and somehow generate power and heat up the CO2.

Specifically, I am hoping you will allow your imagination to roam so that we can see how to alter the Albedo of Mars, and not just at the poles, but everywhere.

It is possible you were the author of ideas along those lines that I recall reading in the forum.

(th)

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#125 2021-12-26 09:12:23

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,424

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Quote (th):

However one way to alter the Albedo of the ice deposits would be to collect the sun energy which would otherwise be reflected into space, and somehow generate power and heat up the CO2.

I will work on a response.  That is quite a tall order.

To create a universal Albedo machine, for Mars or other planets, you might employ Heliostats, and thermal power towers.
While shiny mirrors could make Mars more reflective, if they redirect much of the suns energy to power tower focus's,
then the are moving towards making Mars very dark in visible light.  So, an albedo control.  Yes, I have touched on Albedo before. (Here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9563).

Albedo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo
Quote:

Albedo (/ælˈbiːdoʊ/; from Latin albedo 'whiteness') is the measure of the diffuse reflection of solar radiation out of the total solar radiation and measured on a scale from 0, corresponding to a black body that absorbs all incident radiation, to 1, corresponding to a body that reflects all incident radiation.

Heliostats are simply robots.  They could be mass produced to reduce cost.  Ideally native materials could be used in innovative ways, to produce the parts for them, at a reasonable cost.  They might use clockwork drive, and have a robot to wind them up periodically.

As for getting power from the CO2 ice, other members have gotten further with that than I have.  I am still trying.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-26 09:23:18)


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