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#126 2021-06-02 16:43:57

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

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#127 2021-06-02 17:26:12

louis
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Amazing technology!

On Mars you might need some sort of construction cover so that the water you apply doesn't freeze but otherwise it does seem a real contender. It might also be a cheap way of making air locks on Mars without having to produce large steel structures. Maybe even for air lock doors you could use this material within a steel frame?

This technology could prove of exceptional value on Mars.




Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#128 2021-06-02 17:52:15

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For SpaceNut re concrete fabric "construction" ...

I was glad to see Louis' support for your post, and agree that it sure does look interesting.

The water would (presumably) be carried down to the landing site on one or more cargo delivery craft.

Louis' point about freezing seems well worth considering for the Mars environment.

The concept could be tested on Earth, at the Mount Everest base station Mars Simulation site.  As a reminder for anyone who might chance upon this topic without seeing other material in the NewMars archive, the Mount Everest base station has an atmospheric pressure almost exactly equal to that proposed by RobertDyck for the Large Ship, and for human habitats on Mars.  There is plenty of explanation available if a reader is interested and willing to give the Search tool a chance to find the earlier work.

Louis suggested making the concrete fabric operation inside a temporary (presumably fabric) shelter.  Such a temporary shelter could be pressurized and heated to whatever pressure and temperature is needed so the water can combine chemically with the fabric.

The temporary fabric shelter could (presumably) be used over and over again to make more shelters of this type.

(th)

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#129 2021-06-08 13:07:15

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For OF re protection for researchers ...

This item is from current Earth exploration .... it is thought that the evidence suggests "indefinite" survival is a possibility for this creature ...

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/bd … 18938.html


Radiocarbon dating aged the bdelloid rotifer specimen at between 23,960 and 24,485 years old.

Bdelloid rotifers are a class of rotifer found in freshwater environments around the world. The name rotifer comes from the Latin meaning "wheel bearer".

The creatures are known for their ability to withstand extremes. They are one of the Earth's most radioactive-resistant animals, according to the New York Times, which reports they can also withstand low oxygen, starvation, high acidity and years of dehydration.

There are reports of other multi-celled organisms coming back to life after thousands of years, including a nematode worm, as well as some plants and mosses.

(th)

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#130 2021-06-08 19:20:26

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

The first full day in which we get to use the days light is the most time compressed for activities that must be completed as they lay the ground work of mans survival outside of the can (starship) that we came in....

1 unloading equipment
2 unloading nuclear reactor
3 move and bury or create a berm for the reactor
4 connecting reactor and turning it on

5 unload equipment shelter and temporary chamber
6 move to site location
7 unload water supply for creating the shelter or running of hoses to make setting up shelter possible

8 check shelter readiness for equipment before its to cold
9 store water supply hoses hopefully in the shelter

some where in this is a break for a meal

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#131 2021-06-08 20:17:38

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

The only post made but its why Mars...

artursk wrote:

Hi all.

I'm new to this forum, was great to find it - looks like I'll have a lot of reading to do over the next week, so much good stuff here.

I have recently co-authored a simple educational book on space exploration that looks at the key pros and cons of manned missions to Mars, and thought it would be great to hear some thoughts from the community here on the topic.

Some of the key arguments mentioned in the book are:

PROS:
1) Scientific value
-Finding life
-Development of cutting edge technology
-Increasing efficiency 
-A Step Towards commoditized interplanetary travel and deep space exploration
2) Economic value 
-Developing cutting edge Technology
-Mining for valuable natural resources 
-Boost for global cooperation
3) Inspirational value
-Inspiring children   
-Restoring the 'Can Do' spirit in society
4) Growing as a species
-'Safety' planet 
-Drive to expand beyond the solar system

CONS:
1) Unsustainable costs 
-There are bigger problems that we need to solve 
-Creation of huge budget deficit
2) Limited scientific value 
-Poor value for money (could send many more unmanned missions for the same cost)
-Planetary Protection issues
3) Health and safety risks
-Risks on the way 
-Risks after landing 
-Limited possibility of a rescue mission 
4) Incentive to carelessness on Earth

Would be really eager to know where most of you stand. smile

Oh and in case any of you are interested in the book itself, you can find it on Amazon by searching:
"The Two Sides of a Manned Mission to Mars"

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#132 2021-06-18 07:50:25

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Month 5 of 24 - Quarter 1 of 4 [Month 1-6] Mars Sol Today on Mars: 0036/05/15  Sunday and we  are stuck at day 1 of landing deployment construction with at least one preloaded cargo ship that has been on mars for a cycle.

The cargo ship has extra food, extra water and "Sabatier Reaction system, either a moxie or electrolysis plant or both, including tankage for storage of these cryogenic fuel components.

Plus hopefully construction materials and equipment depending on tonnage manifest. With the first key nuclear reactor onboard operational with safety shielding so that man can unload the vehicles contents as we need them.

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#133 2021-06-19 20:34:49

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Trying to pin down the enrgy and space area requirements for people to build to.
The massive amounts of solar panels on the ISS are collecting 215 kws of power and yet we are not growing any food and need to supplement both water, air for the crew of typically less than 7...
ISS has an internal pressurized volume of 32,333 cubic feet

Each of the eight solar arrays is 112 feet long by 39 feet wide.
The four sets of arrays can generate 84 to 120 kilowatts of electricity
They get hit with 1300 watts for each meter square.
https://mobile.arc.nasa.gov/public/iexp … m/iss.html
traveling at a speed of five miles per second, orbiting Earth every 90 minutes.

So to get to the same levels of power is quite a large solar array on the surface of mars and thats not covering the making of food.

https://www.smallfootprintfamily.com/ho … sufficient

https://www.primalsurvivor.net/much-lan … ufficient/

https://www.growveg.com/guides/growing- … -a-family/

Research in the 1970s by John Jeavons and the Ecology Action Organization found that 4000 square feet (about 370 square metres) of growing space was enough land to sustain one person on a vegetarian diet for a year, with about another 4000 square feet (370 square meters) for access paths and storage – so that’s a plot around 80 feet x 100 feet (24m x 30m).

How much you can grow in this space will depend on your climate, weather and soil and, crucially, how much time you have. Tending to 4000 square feet, particularly at the height of the growing season, will take many hours a week.

So approximate 400 square meters per person required...needing water, warmth and simulated sun light....

https://www.growveg.com/guides/growing- … -a-family/

What you want to eat versus time to growth gives planting area required for each food that you would want in the menu. Of course staggered crops so that timing gets different foods for the menu.

each person at a min needs 400 m^2 of food growing area for on earth is 1kwm^2 x 400 = 400 kw x 9 plus hrs a day 3,600 kwhrs per crew member

of course to get help for life support we will need to get more real estate to use for the gardens of mars

RobertDyck wrote:

Life support for the Large Ship has been discussed in the thread Advanced food production.


Here is how to defeat the dust and gain 30% solar for each sol plus by moving to track the sun.

smartflower-POP_private-home_rgb_MR.jpg

During daylight hours, the solar panel petals track the sun’s movement in the same way that it’s inspirational yellow flowers do. During the night, the petals simply spiral in on top of each other and fold down to minimize space. If it’s rainy or windy, the solar system is smart enough to keep its petals hidden to protect itself.


smartflower-edf-2.jpg

I would add an enclosure to the petals so as to make a means to keep dust from collecting during the night. I would also use a small tank of collected mars air to blow across the panels once in the enclosure venting the dust once they are collapse for the night.

The oscillating face of the flower allows it to create 40 percent more energy than comparable panels. Stationary panels are, by their nature, unable to soak up the same amount of sun and can’t compete with the SmartFlower. Additionally, every time Smartflower unfurls, tiny brushes clean the surface of each panel, diminishing residue and further increasing efficiency.

problem solved and fixed for mars use.....


I think we keep forgetting that here on earth we have the natural power of the suns contribution of that 1Kwatts for a all surfaces for the most part unobstructed and that we still as individuals consume on an order some where about the same every hour of the day when counting all energy needs from the car to getting the groceries.

Mars day is 25hrs x 2 kw = 50 kwhrs to meet minimal daily allowance per crewmen.

The catch 22 is we need more than that to do an EVA or build let alone do science exploration….then to top that off we need even more to make fuel and oxygen let alone find and keep our water for use.

Sure due to activities that are shared we get a lower number but we need to plan as if we were doing this for each person.

That said the KRUSTY units power test at 2 kw would be a minimal power source for just 1 or 2 people....

So if we need 50 kw hrs for a crewman and we have a 3 hour window to collect in winter and store that value we need an array that produces 17 kws while at the summer we might get 6 hrs for an array of 8.5 kws. so design says you go with the larger array size to be able to make the winter covering the array in summer to reduce what needs to be stored. If thats surplus then power other storage method during the summer period of the year..

If we can get 30% efficient panels then we will need 56.666 meters of panels, which rounding up gets more power or about 240 x 240 meters to make a sustainable life condition on mars.

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#134 2021-06-22 12:27:45

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For OF1939 .... re Primary Topic ...

The most recent post in the primary topic occurred 2021-05-23 11:39:24

Today is June 22nd ... Any chance you can post something before a full month elapses?

The pace to reach the destination (whatever it turns out to be) doesn't have to be fast or furious, but it ** does ** need to have steps occasionally.

(th)

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#135 2021-06-22 15:54:07

Oldfart1939
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

OK, but I've been preoccupied with other things...

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#136 2021-06-22 17:26:00

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

I have tried to give some food for thought since we need to create so fast from what we bring and what we can build... Its a very tight schedule on day one to do meaning full work but to protect the assets that we need for a long period of time.
It will be our first walks on a planet not the moon so we will need to adjust very quickly to the new found feelings and still do what some would say is impossible.
So how can we prepare for the new levels of gravity in training....

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#137 2021-06-23 06:54:20

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For SpaceNut re #136

There are several items in your post, but I would like to concentrate on the last one ... RobertDyck's Large Ship is an excellent solution to the question you hae posed.  The passengers and crew are going to need a physical training regimen in any case, so it could be designed to prepare those who will be landing for the planetary surface.

While OF1939 has (so far) indicated preference for travel to Mars in more primitive vehicles, it is entirely possible the personnel he recruits may insist upon having a minimal gravity on the voyage, and if RobertDyck can find backing, his concept could be ready for trial flights in time for the 17 person expedition.

(th)

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#138 2021-06-23 11:09:56

Oldfart1939
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Thomas-
I just made a small addition to the original thread.
I specifically request some input from all chemists, biologists, and geologists for their input here and I'll consider their suggestions and make necessary modifications.

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#139 2021-06-23 18:17:25

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

well two out of the three will have supportive rover and orbital imagery to go with maps of the site to aid in the scientific confirmation of the resource we are seeking to gain for use or to satisfy the science aspects of the mission.
The only detectible signs of biologic is the out gassing of methane and we are still searching for the point where its coming from. Maybe by then we will have the x marks the spot....

The real question then is bring the laboratory with each mission or bring the samples to the lab after tagging, mapping of the items to determine the value in life detection or for insitu use.

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#140 2021-07-01 09:46:39

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For Oldfart1939 ....

Noah is a college student who is demonstrating some competence in thinking about the requirements of an expedition.

Because Noah is a member of the new class (created by SpaceNut after blocking spammers) we have an opportunity to guide his development.

I've had the privilege of working with / assisting PhD level individuals (academic setting) for a number of years.

Noah has created a document that I ** think ** has potential value, but I am concerned that he has not yet mastered the technique of writing that would qualify his paper for peer review.

If you have the energy and time (and I recognize both may be spoken for already) I would appreciate your giving Noah's draft a glance.

I expect Noah to show ** every ** source from which he draws material.  His creativity at this point shows up in the selections and their arrangement.

In order for a student not yet able to do original work to pass muster, it must pass muster with someone with your background.

Please let me know if you are willing to take on this burden.  The paper is about 7 pages long. It includes diagrams copied from sources.

It's a gamble, I recognize, but my interactions with Noah to this point suggest he may be worth the investment of time and thought.

(th)

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#141 2021-07-01 17:48:41

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For Mars we all are responsible for a buildings use and getting things fixed as any cracks would be bad in that air would be leaking out....

Mars does have quakes but nothing that would bring a well built building down.

The seasonal changes to the ground show be quite noticable for crack forming and air leaking from them.

Depending on how deep the building is we may see the frost line or even water table levels change causing ingress or damage to our building that we occupy.

Assuming each building has a safe heaven location or temporary vehicle to get away from the sturcture you can make use of these but for limited time as you must get it fixed.

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#142 2021-07-03 07:20:59

NewMarsMember
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Registered: 2019-02-17
Posts: 231

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

In post #140, (th) asked if you would be willing to review a paper by Noah ...

Please hold off on that ... I had a chance to look more closely at the paper this morning, and have informed Noah that it needs some adjustment before it is ready for your review.

While the content itself might have value, the problem to be addressed is potential confusion about authorship. 

(th)


Recruiting High Value members for NewMars.com/forums, in association with the Mars Society

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#143 2021-07-14 06:12:38

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For OF1939 re latest post in Expedition 17 ...

In the midst of posts in other topics, it is good to see another addition to the Primary Expedition topic!

This companion topic is available for anyone with posting privileges to comment.

OF1939 has requested input from his peers.  If anyone is interested in helping, please read Post #2 of the Recruiting topic.

(th)

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#144 2021-07-14 18:58:18

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Oldfart1939 wrote:

Vehicles:
Large rover, capable of carrying a driver and up to 6 passengers. Either a 6 wheel or even 8 wheel drive vehicle. Could serve as an ambulance with an injured explorer.
2 small rovers, capable of carrying 3 persons, with a "pickup truck" style bed in the back for equipment and samples retrieved.
2 smaller Bobcat tracked front loaders.
2 larger Bobcat style tracked front loaders with a backhoe attachment
Trailers for all vehicles. Capable of carrying mined ice to a purification facility.

I've included wheeled vehicles where possible because tracked vehicles require considerably more maintenance than wheeled vehicles.


The list of vehicles is a good start but with them we need to consider getting in an out of them with space suits dawned which then means an airlock to minimize the chances of the suits going bad from being put on an off so often. This also means that we do need a building capable of being pressurized to aid in that not being need so often as well since we will want to work on them without a suit as well.

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#145 2021-07-30 15:14:19

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For OF1939...

Considering you're still recovering from a bout with Covid, the invitation I'll quote here is (most likely) not an option for this year. However, it does suggest a direction you might look for next year.  Your concept would surely be of interest to the Mars Society audience, if you can find the support you need to fill in the details for a presentation of about 30 minutes (20 plus questions).

Call for Papers

Presentations for the 2021 Virtual Mars Society Convention are invited dealing with all matters (science, technology, engineering, politics, economics, public policy, etc.) associated with the exploration and human settlement of the planet Mars.  Abstracts between 100-300 words can be uploaded at the Mars Society convention registration site (https://lnkd.in/e-XKGGR). Please note that the abstract submission deadline is August 31, 2021.

(th)

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#146 2021-08-09 09:03:58

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For OF1939 re Expedition 17 topic

As you recover from a serious bout with Covid, I hope you will be allowing a thought or two about the expedition to cross your mind.

This post is intended as a reminder that when you ** do ** find energy to continue, any additions to the primary topic will be read with close attention by at least ** one ** other member of the nearly 8 billion people who clutter up the Earth these days.

I would like to think more than one person will pay close attention, but there is no way to know other than posting to the Companion.

As a reminder, anyone not already a forum member wishing to assist with development of the Expedition 17 concept is welcome to read Post #2 of Recruiting.

(th)

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#147 2021-08-09 09:55:24

Oldfart1939
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

(th)-

I am slowly getting better after a relapse with a viral pneumonia. I commented elsewhere to kbd512 what was involved in my approach.

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#148 2021-08-09 11:14:21

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For OF1939 re #147

Thanks for the encouraging update.  The 17 Person Expedition might happen if you recover fully and even discover energy long thought to have been lost.  This is a long shot at this point, but persistence and posting at least once a week in the ** primary ** topic is the key to attracting the kinds of assistants you have called for. 

While this forum is doing what it can to enlist help, there is a strong possibility that your own connections to suitable people will have a greater chance of success.

If you are still a member of professional societies, an email request to the editor of their online sites might be honored with exposure.

Edit after a moment's thought ...

A letter to the Editor of a hard copy newspaper in a college town might reach one or two people of the caliber you are looking for.

If you write a model for such a letter, I am willing to submit it on your behalf.  This is a location with a decent college population, although I would be surprised if anyone in that cohort actually looks at the local paper, let alone the Letters to the Editor section.

It's definitely a long shot, I admit. But then, so is your entire project!

(th)

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#149 2021-08-09 19:56:38

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Just a reminder for where the authors copy is for the topics draft
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9865

review and bring back suggestions and or points which need to be made in this discusion topic area

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#150 2021-08-09 20:12:54

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

This is a problem area even if the tank count is off as its taking a ship to be ready for flight more than a month.

I indicated there will be at least 2 to 4 supply vessels already landed or accompanying the first crewed lander. If we bring in a second crewed vessel in the same Hohmann transfer window, additional supplies will be needed for support.

This means at least another 2-3 cargo ships with additional food and building supplies/heavy equipment. Musk has indicated that many of these cargo vessels would be making one-way flights to Mars and could be disassembled for building materials.

This is the only issue for use of starship to over come and that is the refueling operation
blue-origin-hls-national-team-lunar-starship-infographic-2x.jpg

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