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#51 2021-05-11 18:56:39

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Got thinking about the crews safety and a critical piece of gear is a simple smoke, carbon monoxide detector nut I want to not only have them networked back to a central console but to also have a displayable readings at the units alarm is that is being detected.

We talked about energy, supplemental water & oxygen as well as food growth but in addition to these is storage.

Storage is at a premium in the early missions but we also must do energy management as well in that phase of setting up to stay on mars.

First up will be using all storage that we can from the ship we came in and that we will return home in.

Next is using every inch of the cargo ship as we make use of all of the items we brought to stage the base with.

Storage will also be used to keep anything we would normally vent as its got energy value for being able to use it once more.

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#52 2021-05-11 19:32:04

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For SpaceNut re #51

The idea that all supplies must be inside the pressure shell of an expedition vessel is certainly traditional.

I see no reason at all for supplies that can be stored in vacuum to be inside the pressure vessel.  The ISS has storage outside the pressure vessel for supplies of various kinds. 

Can you think of a reason why an expedition vessel going to Mars would be prohibited from having huge volumes of supplies attached to the exterior?

The only reason I can think of is that someone might be thinking of trying to slow a vessel full of passengers by passing through the atmosphere of Mars.

The concept seems somewhat quaint to me, since it is completely unnecessary.

The vessel sent to Mars does NOT need to use ANY of the fuel and oxidizer it can load up to leave Earth.

All of the momentum needed to launch a vessel from LEO toward Mars can be provided by orbital tugs, just as the Super Heavy is going to provide the impulse the Starships are going to need to reach orbit.

The traditional limited thinking of how an expedition can go to Mars keeps reappearing in the posts of this forum.

***
However, your post #51 was about the wise practice of including safety detectors inside the pressure vessel, and I hope you will receive enthusiastic support, or at least support for that idea.

(th)

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#53 2021-05-11 19:41:22

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

exterior? would burn up on atmospheric entry to mars surface....

Storage is on the surface of mars that must be obtained to go home....

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#54 2021-05-11 20:36:28

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For SpaceNut ... Thanks for picking up on the idea of storing supplies on the exterior of the space craft....

There is no need for a vehicle carrying humans to take the risk of passing through the atmosphere.

The sensible way to accelerate to match the velocity at Mars is to carry fuel and oxidizer for the purpose. And the way to do ** that ** is NOT to expend ANY of the fuel and oxidizer to leave Earth. That is an antiquated (although certainly traditional) way to leave Earth.

The sensible way to leave LEO is with the service of a pusher.

If you think about it, Starship is going to use a pusher (Super Heavy) to reach orbit.

Falcon 9 first stages provide a push to give the second stage the velocity needed so it can reach orbit.

For departure from LEO, the services of a pusher vehicle will allow Mars bound vessels to carry fuel and oxidizer sufficient to accelerate to match the velocity of Mars when they get their.

There is no need to take the enormous risk of slowing in the atmosphere.

That is very traditional, but (to the best of my recollection) the recent expeditions to Mars included at least two that did NOT use passage through the atmosphere to slow.

(th)

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#55 2021-05-11 21:10:31

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

The starship arrives to orbit with 100 mt of fuel to land back on earth which is a far cry from the launch which it had 1200 mt to start with  and must be refilled as thats all it can do by estimates to make it full on the order of 6 to 8 starship tankers. You need this fuel for earth departure 1100 mt of fuel to push the starships structure mass of 120mt plus payload 100 to 150 mt to mars..

The starship is not a dock able design to have a pusher ship arrive from earth and the size of the ship for pushing needs to be on the order of the bfr first stage....

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#56 2021-05-12 06:33:40

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For SpaceNut ....  re #55

Thanks for continuing to think about the problem of design for giving vessels headed for Mars a shove from LEO, so they don't have to use any of their replenished stock of fuel and oxidizer to head out to Mars. 

The Starship is certainly designed to be pushed, since it is designed to be pushed by the Super Heavy.

I suspect that a person who knows more about computing thrust needed for the departure from Earth will be able to show that the fuel needed for the LEO departure is less than what was required to lift the vessel from Earth in the first place.

Using the famous quote "If you've reached LEO you're half way to anywhere" as a rough guide, I'd see an equivalent quantity of propellant as an upper bound.

If someone decides to perform the calculation, please set a tag in the post so the information is easy to find in future, since this discussion is sure to occur over and over again.

I am recommending that the starship headed for Mars be fully restocked with fuel and oxidizer before it is pushed out to Mars, so it has plenty of propellant to be able to accelerate at Mars to reach orbit before it attempts a landing.  The supplies carried on the outside of the vessel can be cached in orbit.

I think we've had this discussion before ... The idea of carrying food and water needed for a return to Earth all the way down to Mars, and then carrying it back up to Mars orbit after a visit to the surface is a waste of propellant.  All such supplies should be left in orbit for retrieval when the expedition leaves Mars.

To the point about the size of the vehicle needed for a push ... I'd be quite interested in seeing an analysis of the requirements for this mission.  My guess is that a starship could be modified to carry out the pusher mission.

It needs to give a fully refueled starship a push sufficient to send it on its way to Mars, and then it needs enough propellant left over to return to LEO for its next pusher mission.

Since there are no air resistance issues to contend with, there is no reason (that I can think of right now) why more than one starship could not be secured to each other to make as much propulsive force as needed for the pusher mission.

SearchTerm:Pusher from LEO for Starship headed to Mars

(th)

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#57 2021-05-12 09:04:50

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For Oldfart1939 as you work on the Primary topic ...

The story of the antarctic expedition of 1898 related in the article at the link below is one I'd not encountered before ... the "hero" is a gent whose magnetic personality helped him to insure the lives of the crew in his care, but also led to his conviction for fraud when he returned to civilian life.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/antarctic-ex … 28211.html

The polar expeditions of the heroic age serve as case studies for future manned missions to Mars—a destination as distant, hostile, and forbidding as Antarctica may have seemed in the 1890s. Jack Stuster, an anthropologist who has conducted numerous studies for NASA, says that the success of any such voyage would require finding a doctor who could make the best of the limited resources at his or her disposal, someone who could emulate Cook’s combination of ingenuity, empathy, and infectious optimism. “When I think of the physician role,” Stuster tells me, “I think of Frederick Cook.”

If humans do reach the red planet, we may in part have one of the greatest impostors of the world to thank.

I thought the closing of the article was interesting .... the conditions of a visit to the Red Planet will be similar to those encountered by the seamen locked in ice ... there won't be any hot roaring fire to boost morale, but perhaps modern knowledge of lighting for psychological purposes will substitute.

(th)

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#58 2021-05-12 09:08:25

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For Oldfart1939 .... the objective of this topic pair (whatever you decide it should be) can be achieved by steady, regular updates to the primary topic.

Please consider setting up a weekly posting schedule for the next year ... It will take you (and your supporters in Companion) at least that long to work out the details of the expedition, down to the last bar of soap, and sip of orange juice.

For Oldfart1939 re Post #59

Thanks for your update on your thinking about the many details/options ahead in designing the expedition.

I am replying here to avoid placing my ID in the flow and obscuring your post.

***
I'd like to invite other forum members to search the historical record for any examples of 17 person teams that have undertaken expeditions of two years or more.  There are several I know of that are above that number, and several below it.

(th)

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#59 2021-05-12 09:58:54

Oldfart1939
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

TH-
Thanks for the reminder; lots happening in the field and trying to keep focused is difficult at times.
I've been giving a lot of thought to the final composition and duties of the "labor force" in the 2 construction triads. It appears that Sierra Nevada Aerospace has been working on some new habs that I want to consider including in the mission. The amount of "construction" is a variable that we don't have any control over at this juncture,

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#60 2021-05-12 18:11:32

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

tahanson43206 wrote:

Thanks for continuing to think about the problem of design for giving vessels headed for Mars a shove from LEO, so they don't have to use any of their replenished stock of fuel and oxidizer to head out to Mars.

Thats a worth while test to see if a fully loaded starship can actually abort land back to the launch site after booster seperation not bursting to flames or buckling under the much greater mass of landing with all that fuel onboard still...I doubt they it can without the landing leg modifications as the little stubs will not take it for sure as they can not do so with the tanks nearly empty.


That abort test would make it deemed safe for human use as thats what needed to be done with the crewed dragon.

This would make a no fuel insitu mission possible if one had the earth departure stage sent to orbit with the fully fueled up starship waiting to dock up with the pusher stage.

tahanson43206 wrote:

I am recommending that the starship headed for Mars be fully restocked with fuel and oxidizer before it is pushed out to Mars, so it has plenty of propellant to be able to accelerate at Mars to reach orbit before it attempts a landing.  The supplies carried on the outside of the vessel can be cached in orbit.

I think we've had this discussion before ... The idea of carrying food and water needed for a return to Earth all the way down to Mars, and then carrying it back up to Mars orbit after a visit to the surface is a waste of propellant.  All such supplies should be left in orbit for retrieval when the expedition leaves Mars.

This is mission architecture of the parts and pieces needed to do certain functions.

ERV is the topology term used for the ship sitting in mars orbit until its needed to go home as you put it fully stocked but this leaves a power issue for mars as the boiloff of fuels being used will need active cooling of which solar panels would need to be quite large and would eat up the mass needed to have for the return trip...Nuclear would require large radiators and cooling fluid which once activated could not be approach for its return home goods due to radioactivity.

So we land with a cargo ship on mars thats human capable equipped just the same as the crewed ships to make each ship the same or we have problems with each for its use.

Any food leaving the surface of mars is to have fresh goods for the start of the return home flight from mars, one would not count on a ship waiting on orbit for water unless its a three part mission design where the ship you landed in is expended after launch to orbit and not used after docking with the ERV..

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#61 2021-05-16 10:51:07

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For Oldfart1939 re topic ...

2021-05-03 02:06:38 by Oldfart1939 is the most recent post in the Primary topic.  Today is the 16th of May.

More than a week has gone by since your most recent post.

As long as you remain interested in investing time (and thought) in the Primary Topic, I am (and hope to remain) interested in providing such support as I may be able.

If you try for a weekly post, a year will go by lickety-split, and you'll have publishable article in hand.

In addition, the references you accumulate for the article will be foundation blocks for a full fledged book designed for US Naval Academy students to read in preparation for a related career in the US Space Force.

As you know, GW Johnson has a more than nodding acquaintance with Annapolis.

(th)

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#62 2021-05-16 10:53:59

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For all ...

This Companion topic is a good place for you to post references that Oldfart1939 might wish to include in his publication.

Please do not just provide a link ...

The format needed is standard academic format, which you can see in any peer reviewed paper or an most scientific or engineering publications.

Should Oldfart1939 find your suggestion/contribution useful, he can simply copy and paste from the Companion into the Primary, and your contribution will become a part of the finished product.

(th)

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#63 2021-05-17 13:19:44

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For Oldfart1939 re (to me encouraging) additions to the Primary topic!

For all ... please evaluate the new posts and comment upon them here.

Praise is good, because this project is intended for publication in a venue where educated, open minded people with a highly tuned sense of BS reside.

On the other hand, addition of missing items or constructive criticism are valuable as well.

I've read about "writer's workshops", but never had the opportunity to participate in one.

My hope is that this experiment we are conducting will be beneficial for everyone involved during the creation phase, and for future readers (if/when)_ Oldfart1939 gets that far.

In particular, I'd appreciate someone thinking about how this material will be presented.

I've started posting about Science Fact articles in the Analog topic but have been distracted.  I hope to get back to that soon.

In the meantime, if someone knows of an example of an article that Oldfart1939 might not have seen, and which would be useful as a model, please post about it here.  Please do NOT post a link without an explanation of why a reader should take precious time to look at it.

(th)

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#64 2021-05-17 16:46:58

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Thanks for the continued use of time which was in post 24 and 39 as the mission dynamics change phases.

We have started to define some equipment that is used but not any of the small hand items or of the zero g loading devices that would enhance the ability to do work and that includes the use of exoskeletons as well to modify what we could do.

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#65 2021-05-18 16:53:03

Oldfart1939
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

(th)-

I was hoping for some commentary and input on my latest post of the 17 astronaut crew thread.

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#66 2021-05-18 18:50:20

louis
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From: UK
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Posts: 6,858

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

I am a bit confused as to why there are two threads. Doesn't seem necessary to me.


Oldfart1939 wrote:

(th)-

I was hoping for some commentary and input on my latest post of the 17 astronaut crew thread.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#67 2021-05-18 19:24:27

SpaceNut
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Posts: 23,078

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

One is for the wiki creator of which its and experiment and the other is for the conversation of what is created in the wiki....

I did agree with post #9 for the specialties overlap for mission legs and transition from one phase to the next as post #10 indicates as we need trade skills as the engineering is already done before hand with the supply list generations for the use in the actual building.

Its not until much later that we need the design skills to build from scratch what we want or to tear it out of a no useable item in recycling that we need to think as an engineer would need to.

One of the major areas of high traffic use is in the communications and computer systems which will be used to guide each session of the build plan. These should also have a new location to increase the abilities of the items which are in other cargo vehicles as these can be turned into useful new equipment since these will be idle once things have been delivered.

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#68 2021-05-19 06:37:57

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For Oldfart1939 re team building ....

Terraformer recruited me to join this forum.  He found me at Dr. Lewis Dartnell's Knowledge forum, where I'd been in residence for several years.

I spent a couple of years following the Magellan expedition in "real" time ... The expedition sailed in late 1519, and 18 of the original 300+ members returned to Spain three years later.  A record of my tracking of the expedition is available at [20160920 Magellan Space City Designer Planet Simulation].

I see a significant parallel between your planning for a 17 person landing party for Mars, and Magellan's planning for his venture.

By the time Magellan set to work writing the detailed plans for the venture, he had acquired significant experience in his field (sea navigation) and military activities on behalf of the Nation of Portugal.  You have gained the experience needed to design a scientific expedition, and seem temperamentally well suited for the marathon that lies ahead.   I see this as a one year undertaking.  Your energy is a concern, so I trust you will keep in motion at a pace that is comfortable.

Now to the matter at hand .... you have requested feedback from registered members of the forum.

Unfortunately, at the present time, in the absence of GW Johnson due to hardware difficulties, we appear to have no one able to provide the assistance you need.  The situation seems to me quite similar to Magellan needing crewman to pull the oars on the longboats he procured for each of the five vessels in his fleet.  He interviewed each and every one of the prospective crew members, or delegated that responsibility to trusted subordinates.

In the end, he gathered seamen who had the combination of skills, attitudes and capabilities needed for an ambitious undertaking on the scale of global exploration.  Among the skills sought and found were those of oarsmen for the longboats.

Seamen of the day would have been able to perform a wide variety of tasks required to keep sailing vessels in motion, and pulling on oars together would have been a basic skill.

In your situation, I expect you'll be recruiting scientists/engineers/tradespeople to fill the expedition roster.  But long before that, you'll need a support staff which could easily number in the hundreds over time. 

A skill set needed immediately is outlined in your post #65.  It seems clear we presently have no one able and willing to perform the tasks needed to assist you at this stage of the venture.

We have two ways of approaching this ... we can enlist from the existing registered membership, and I am counting on GW Johnson to be a strong supporter when he is back with us.  However, there may be others who have been away for a while, and who might be willing to provide the specific assistance you have requested.

However, I think the situation that arises from the attack by spammers over many years, and SpaceNut's critical decision to block the incessant attacks is favorable for your enterprise.  We are now able to recruit and interview candidates to assist with the work that needs doing.

Our success in finding someone to help RobertDyck with design of the Large Ship is illustrative of the problem.  Because we have been casting a line instead of a net, we have attracted no one (that I am aware of) to help with meal planning for the Large Ship, or any other aspect of a promising design, for that matter.

In order to find people to help you at this stage of the project, and for later states, we need to greatly improve our recruiting operation.

In the mean time, if there is anyone who happens across this post, who is a registered member already but perhaps forgot the password, the system will help you recover access if you remember your email address.  If you were registered previously and forgot your email, write me at NewMarsMember * gmail.com, and I will forward your request to SpaceNut.  He has the tools needed to assist you.

If you are **not** already registered, and think you have the skills that would assist Oldfart1939 with expedition planning, please write NewMarsMember * gmail.com and let me know that is your specific interest.

Otherwise, read Post #2 of the recruiting topic and contact NewMarsMember * gmail.com to apply for membership.

We do NOT need more members to assist with general conversation.  We have an ample supply of members who are able and willing to keep a conversation going.  What we need at THIS time are members who are willing to assist the project leaders who are already present.

(th)

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#69 2021-05-19 18:00:13

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

I was reminded today that we already have working model to make other construction equipment from and that is the Battery operated Hydraulic Forklifts (Hyster) which are used in many a storage area that requires a exhaust free zone.

Battery power construction equipment of course the equipment will need a Charging system Business opportunity topics that would do nicely as an anchor to making mars construction possible

edit repost

Mars_B4_Moon wrote:

Robo Diggers, autonomous versions for Moons and Planets? https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/23/caterpi … -moon.html

Catapillar has been working with Nasa for some time now with the telerobotic conversion...

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#70 2021-05-19 21:00:24

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

repost for the future crew use

RobertDyck wrote:

In the Crops discussion thread, I estimated greenhouse area required for each food crop. Calculated for 12 crew. As mentioned, this thread could be speculation for some science fiction story. Or could be used for the Large scale colonization ship. The latter was designed for 1,000 passengers, but could carry a maximum of 1,600 passengers if crowded into maximum number of passengers per cabin. So multiply greenhouse area by 100 (1,200 passengers and crew instead of 12). Potatoes were estimated as 145 m² for 12 people, so 14,500 m². That's way too big for the ship. So scale back: carry potatoes in food storage. That could be some fresh potatoes in refrigeration, but also frozen french fries, powdered mashed potatoes, and dried scalloped potatoes. Dehydrated means lower mass.

Food tissue culture? Just no. Stored meat (frozen, canned) and stored entrées.

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#71 2021-05-20 07:43:06

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For Oldfart1939 ...

Noah checked in at NewMarsMember today ... He's been busy with studies as we would expect, and had not been following the forum since his last visit.

I suggested (if he can find the time) that he read the 17 person expedition topics (Primary and Companion) from the top.

I'm hoping he will be able to help to review the work you are doing in the primary, but we really do not yet have an idea of how he might be able to help.

I am encouraged that he is interested in at least ** looking ** at the situation.

Meanwhile, I will continue trying to think of ways to increase the reach of the Recruiting campaign for NewMars forum project support.

RobertDyck and you now have active projects, and the scope of each is so large that a number of highly educated, experienced people are needed to start to fill in details as delegates for the two of you.

***
On another branch of the 17 person expedition topic ... would you be interested in delegating responsibility for delivering your team and its supplies to Mars to someone else?  It seems to me that would take a large burden off your shoulders.

RobertDyck **might** be willing to take on that part of the job, but he might not, so I'll keep looking until we hear back from him.

(th)

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#72 2021-05-20 18:13:50

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Something that we have talked about for mars Two consortia of companies will be supported by ESA to devise detailed definitions of how to provide telecommunications and navigation services for missions to the Moon, under the agency’s Moonlight initiative.

Yes, GPS....-

Something else for a first starship mission since we know fuel amount and power are closely coupled we might want a small return ship to orbit if we are using a return ship to earth that has been parked in mars low orbit.

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#73 2021-05-21 05:32:54

tahanson43206
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For SpaceNut .... Oldfart1939 will need to plan for navigation without GPS, because such a system is not currently available, nor is one planned.

I saw a report recently that the US Navy has quietly taken modern battlefield reality into account, and begun to require all deck officers to regain proficiency in celestial navigation.  Celestial navigation would seem reliable enough to use on Mars, if the tables of movements of celestial bodies can be translated from Earth to Mars.  That would seem to be a useful capability in any case.

I notice that NASA refers to locations on Mars by their latitude and longitude, and am pretty sure I saw that China is using the same coordinate system for their rover.

(th)

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#74 2021-05-21 11:55:16

Oldfart1939
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Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,221

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Thomas-
Check through my previous posts for GPS system for Mars. I have strongly suggested that one is needed for exact landing efficiency, along with prepositioned transponders near projected landing sites.

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#75 2021-05-21 17:21:16

SpaceNut
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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Oldfart1939 wrote:

All major airports have elements of what is called the WAAS system, which is the acronym for Wide Area Augmentation System. This is composed of several strategically placed transponders on the ground to aid and assist the onboard GPS navigation system. My airplane had a Garmin 550 on board and was "WAAS enabled." This system is essential for landing aircraft to know their altitude with a high degree of accuracy. The transponders are surveyed in place with exact altitude included. GPS is great for position in map coordinates, but not good enough to land an airliner.

basically a beacon but here is the topic
GPS system for Mars?

edit

another topic for communications and advance notice of incoming as well as ongoing work in the air
Traffic Control at Mars

it also goes with the topic by louis Coms on Mars

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