Converting Slabs of ice into seas. Brine Resouces.

Void · 2020-08-14 11:28:45

I am going to copy a post from "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Technology Updates" post #231, as I know that there are other posters there, and I want to be politely out of their way.

Storing energy in "red bricks":
https://techxplore.com/news/2020-08-ene … ricks.html
Quotes:
Red bricks—some of the world's cheapest and most familiar building materials—can be converted into energy storage units that can be charged to hold electricity, like a battery, according to new research from Washington University in St. Louis.
"Our method works with regular brick or recycled bricks, and we can make our own bricks as well," said Julio D'Arcy, assistant professor of chemistry. "As a matter of fact, the work that we have published in Nature Communications stems from bricks that we bought at Home Depot right here in Brentwood (Missouri); each brick was 65 cents."
"In this work, we have developed a coating of the conducting polymer PEDOT, which is comprised of nanofibers that penetrate the inner porous network of a brick; a polymer coating remains trapped in a brick and serves as an ion sponge that stores and conducts electricity," D'Arcy said.
The red pigment in bricks—iron oxide, or rust—is essential for triggering the polymerisation reaction. The authors' calculations suggest that walls made of these energy-storing bricks could store a substantial amount of energy.
"PEDOT-coated bricks are ideal building blocks that can provide power to emergency lighting," D'Arcy said. "We envision that this could be a reality when you connect our bricks with solar cells—this could take 50 bricks in close proximity to the load. These 50 bricks would enable powering emergency lighting for five hours.
"Advantageously, a brick wall serving as a supercapacitor can be recharged hundreds of thousands of times within an hour. If you connect a couple of bricks, microelectronics sensors would be easily powered."
Pressing Martian regolith into bricks:
https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/27/1543 … n-missions
Quote:
That made the researchers think there is some ingredient already in the Martian soil that helps it to stick together. They ultimately landed on iron oxide — a chemical compound that gives Martian soil its signature red color. When iron oxide is crushed, it can crack easily, forming fractures with very clean and flat surfaces, according to Qiao. And when these surfaces are firmly pressed together, they form super strong bonds.
Not only do you actually have a binder more than just iron oxide, but I expect the results would be very good in many ways.
It is hard to not think of this for Mars, in various locations, but I would also suggest that you could make air dams out of them in Mars lavatubes, to hold back air, not water, so partititioning off favored locations of a lavatube.
Probably just generating iron oxide on the Moon and other locations would allow for similar activities involving "Electric Storage Bricks".
Done.

So, red bricks then perhaps, but so what?

Continuing......

Last edited by Void (2020-08-14 11:30:32)

Void · 2020-08-14 11:31:33

If we did have various kinds of sea's at high latitudes, wouldn't it be nice to be able to follow the sun, on brick roads with the seasons?

They were just little boys it appears to me:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=song%2C+% … 1953aa0620

Taking a walk....

Last edited by Void (2020-08-14 11:40:42)

SpaceNut · 2020-08-14 15:31:06

Thanks for following the sun. It seems so long ago the British music invasion.

Void · 2020-08-14 15:33:50

Ya, sorry to say, it was that long ago. And so are we

So, I am thinking very long bricks. Very big bricks.
And a linear commutator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commutator_(electric)
Maybe a cybertruck? https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck
I suppose instead of carbon brushes, some type of wheels for electrical contact.
So, instead of loosing charge as you traveled, you might start with a low charge, and arrive with a full charge.
I am of course thinking solar and/or anti-solar power. The bricks will have significant thermal inertia, and the day and night temperature swings should contrast with that.
Maybe something down this path?
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-efficient … night.html
So, the "Roads" may or may not have coveings to keep out toxic dust, and may also have parallel power lines and water and gas lines.
Rails? Well whatever.
Done.

Void · 2020-08-18 08:25:44

I have be thinking about quite a few things the last few days.
-Martian Global Aquifer at about 750 meters or 2500 feet? And yet a fossil ice cap burried deeper than that. I am of the opinion that it could be possible that a salty water table in contact with burried ice bodies might supply moisture to the water table.
That might be a slow source of water input to it, where cold salty water was in direct contact with a burried ice body. An energy source would also help. I have seen speculation that the lake under the South polar ice cap cannot exist by salts and pressure alone. They think there should be a geological "Hot Spot" in order for the liquid to exist.
I am going to be bold and say that although that could be true, I would look at electric ground Electrical Currents as a way to alter the water cycle on Mars. A very interesting way.
Here is some support for that possibility:
http://www.geomag.us/info/Smaus/Doc/oce … 20Field%29.
https://phys.org/news/2016-10-magnetic- … earth.html
https://www.usgs.gov/special-topic/wate … er_objects
The Earth has its way to generate electric current flows, and I expect that Mars would as well.
Mars has it's own ways:
https://www.universetoday.com/405/elect … es%20apart.
https://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/so … _chem.html
http://people.ee.duke.edu/~cummer/repri … Storms.pdf
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … /98JA01954
https://phys.org/news/2020-05-maven-ele … e%20planet.
I will also argue that it may be possible that the solar wind creates electric flows, and also just the day night difference. I would expect that U.V. light could generate charges, by ionizing vapors from the soil.
So, we should at least consider if the magnitude of these possible effects can change how the water cycle(s) might work on Mars.
How electrically conductive may the Martian atmopshere?
https://phys.org/news/2020-05-maven-ele … e%20planet.
Quote:

However, since the density of the Martian atmosphere is much lower than Earth's, the near-surface electrical conductivity of the Martian atmosphere is expected to be 100 times higher. A Martian dust devil will therefore take longer to fully charge, since the increased atmospheric conductivity draws charge away from Martian dust grains.

So, I used to think that there could be lightning on Mars. Actually sort of. The atmosphere is so much more conductive, that instead you would have a lower voltage, higher current discharge which might not generate visible light.
So, with a water table that is actually releatively close the the surface 750 Meters, and various magnitudes of storms from Dust Devil to Global, I anticipate that discharges will travel into the global water table, and through it. This could add heat in certain locations which along with pressure, salts, and geothermal heat, might keep melting enough sub-surface ice to keep the water table hydrated.
I am interested in this, because it will affect how we should choose to work with Mars.
Done.

Void · 2020-08-18 08:29:44

I think I have better ideas now for ice covered seas.

I am also thinking that seasonal migration will eventually make a lot of sense for Mars. To facilitate that likely all that is needed is Elon Musk associated technologies.

-Transportation: Tesla vehicles. SpaceX derived short hopper rockets.
-Solar power and solar storage. Again associated with Tesla.
-A much smaller bore boring company drill to drill diagonal tubes down 750 Meters or 2,500 feet to the presumed water table.

Where I previously in a post suggested a linear commutator for mobile vehicles, I similarly think of something like that, but instead, "Islands", which can be spaced appropriately for the trusted range of a group of Tesla vehicles.

The Island should include a power supply to recharge cars.
Probably some kind of shelter for vehicles and humans.

It should be nice if it had a landing pad for short range rocket vehicles.

A well made by a Boring company device going down to the water table.

-Often my stuff involves underground or underwater, which I am not ashamed of. But it seems to me, that if you want to be in the Martian daylight, maybe cars are a good way.

And as I have previously said, I don't think it is that smart, to have the bulk of the Martian population spending half of their time in relatively dark Martian seasonal extreme cold.

Mars is small, so the distance is much less than the Earth. The seasons are about twice as long. Why not have 2 summers in your Martian year, rather than a summer and a winter.

Done

Last edited by Void (2020-08-18 08:36:12)

Void · 2020-08-18 08:39:57

Yes, we are going to need to come up with ways, to deal with global dust storms.

Just now, I am thinking that ice covered seas will help with that a lot.

This emerging technology:
https://techxplore.com/news/2020-01-ant … ep%20space.

And also I am not anti-nuclear. Just don't want important things like water tables poisoned. So, no stupid short sighted forms of nuclear.

Might be cool to have a small one for each "Island" base.

Done.

Void · 2020-08-18 11:25:09

OK, I feel like being a total jerk today, insead of doing what I should instead
I will of course abide by all rules required on this site, in order to be a "Sanitary" member.
Here it goes. We have ice volcanos on Ceres, which is a tiny world. We have pingo's on Earth in the Arctic. Why none active on Mars? Maybe they are there, but we just don't see what we would expect from our experiences.
Pingo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingo
There are some features that are suspected of being Pingo's on Mars. And so I would need to understand why they have not yet done what I think a water eruption would do on Mars.
They don't know where Ceres gets the energy to have water eruptions, but still they are there in defiance of our notions of how things work. I might say, look at electromagnitism, but fine, it could be an excessive amount of radioactive materials in the object. Not worth the argument until we might discover more about it.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ic … &FORM=VIRE
I am going to subscribe to the notion that many ice slabs are formed by precipitation, likely snow. But I am going to ask what a briny water eruption would look like on Mars.
On Earth, Pingo's form mounds, because there is very little to remove the ice.
The same is likely for Ceres. It must be cold enough that sublimation does not overcome the rate of eruption deposits, except over a very long period of time.
If you had a water eruption on Mars, the greater gravity of Mars relative to Ceres, in the first place would suggest that it should spread, like a thin magma.
The difference between a magma of rock and a magma of briny water however is that when it solidifies, it will float on any still existing water.
So, obviously I am suggesting that water eruptions of brine on Mars might suggest a horizontal eruption, rather than a vertical one. The brine likely being cold and very briny, may find it easier to flow sideways rather than upwards.
But on Mars, even if an eruption were to go partially upwards, we have a special kind of erosion existing. The temperatures are warm enough and the atmosphere dry enough that any part of ice poking through the soil deposits should erode rather quickly, leaving a flatening root of the orginial eruption. The eroded water would then most likely end up at the poles.
The shifting soil, may protect ice that lays flat, but would be less protective for any elevated ice projections.
There may be such ice deposits near the equator.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08 … %20equator.
Quote:

Scientists have discovered substantial deposits of water ice buried in shallow soils near Mars’s equator.

The findings come from a reanalysis of data from NASA’s Odyssey spacecraft, which began orbiting Mars in 2001 and is the oldest functioning mission at the planet. One of Odyssey’s instruments measures the neutrons kicked up from the martian surface by cosmic rays striking the planet. From these neutron counts, scientists can infer the amount of hydrogen—and thus, presumably, the amount of water—present in the uppermost meter or so of soil. In small amounts, the water can take many forms—either in hydrated minerals or as small ice particles stuck between particles of sand or silt. But when the inferred abundances rise above 26%—as they do in some regions—scientists are pretty sure that bulk ice sits just below the surface, says Jack Wilson, a planetary scientist at Johns Hopkins University’s Applied Physics Laboratory in Laurel, Maryland.

OK, if it was from snow deposits, then it is apparently hard to understand how it persisted to today. (If it is really there and not hydrated minerals).
Marsquakes:
https://www.businessinsider.com/mars-qu … kes-2019-7
Auto Fracking:
https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-hea … -1.7417762
Quote:

Mars-quakes May Be Caused by Auto-fracking, Scientists Suggest

So, OK, if you subscribe to the Dying to Dead Mars, notion, then this could just be Mars shrinking while it cools off. That might push briny water to the surface.
But then again, how does Ceres have such large eruptions? Why would Mars have less energy than Ceres? Well maybe as it moved from the outer solar system it was tidally disrupted. I would not know.
We also have the possibility of seasonal thermal changes. Maybe that can penetrate down far enough, I have some trouble being very sure of that. When the heating was done, then the freezing would return, possibly causing a water eruption.
And if there were another intermittant energy source, then we might have underground thermal disruptions at certain locations. Lets say electrical discharge from a global dust storm?? Long shot I will agree, but I generally don't do binary wars, methods to think things through. I would prefer to list possibilities and then try to think how evidence might be found to define better what may be real.

Done for now.

Void · 2020-08-18 12:51:06

This is a copy of post #99, about clear wood. I am putting it here again because I am going to work with it:

I have had my eyes on this item for the last few days, for Mars. Clear wood.
https://phys.org/news/2019-11-transpare … uture.html
I think it will be hard to have actually wood on Mars, other than perhaps bamboo, which I am not sure would be what is wanted. But I am thinking of something like wood simulant, pressed particle board???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpare … 0in%201992.
Some of the features of actual wood may not be present, such as waveguide for light, unless somehow 3D printing could arrange for that.
While this could be used for many things on Mars, I am particularly fond of thinking of it for two particular instances.
1) Covering for ice covered Seas/Lakes.
2) Very large cylinders on the surface, very long tubes, I hope could be 3D printed. The end caps might be the same or different. These pressurized items might indeed be large enough to grow crops like bamboo??? Portals in the bottoms could link to other subsurface/sub ice pressurized spaces.
I will do an individual post for #1 and #2.
Done.

I am rather excited for it, although I don't expect we would have significant amounts of real wood from trees any time soon on Mars.
But I am thinking things as thin as a sheet of paper,
Cardboard like materials,
and yes something like particle board.

I am also looking at this technology, to use with it:
https://www.sciencealert.com/an-off-gri … n-at-night

The stuff is supposed to be rather shatter-proof, unlike glass, resistant to U.V. light, and thermally insulating.
I can hope that this could be the exterior skin of a covering for an ice covered lake.
Possibly a sheet of poly under it if needed.

I am hoping they can be made transparent or translucent to sunlight.

I am looking at this to use in conjunction with ice covered lakes/seas.
https://www.reporter.am/this-anti-solar … -at-night/

In this way, you could turn vast areas of Mars into "Wet" solar collectors, and dump excess heat to the Martian sky, at night, during global dust storms, and very likely even in the day.

And nuclear power would fit in just fine. You would dump the heat from that into the water, and then generate electricity by the anti-solar cells.

To be sure the technology needs perfecting, it looks like, but we will see.

-------

In my last version of ice covered bodies of water, I was not focused on direct collection of the energy of photons. I was instead interested it getting at minerals on the bottoms of these ice bodies. But both items may be compatible.

My assumptions are that fiber could be extracted from plants that could live in the water. But also perhaps if someone can grow bamboo, as many here have suggested before, from that as well. I am also supposing that the resins and other chemical processes could be implemented for a reasonable price.

The feedback for this would be "The more "Wet" solar collectors you can make, then the more vegetation you could grow. And so make more of the transparent pseudo wood.

One thing I have neglected so far, is if you melt these ice slabs, do you eventually melt the permafrost, and then does the water go down the drain, into an aquifer? Sometimes it might be desired to do so. But I would think, usually not.

So, I am thinking of a piping grid somewhat under the soil of the lake/sea bottom. A piping grid on top of the "Wood" cover of the ice of the lake. They would be connected, and would have a fluid which would conduct cold into the permafrost, and also conduct heat to the surface grid. The surface grid might involve anti-solar panels to generate electricity.

The fluid conducting the heat could be a gas or liquid, and might involve a phase change gas<>liquid.
It might be a pumped circulation or just thermal convection process.

If anti-solar panels don't suit, then of course some kind of process involving a turbine(s).

It can be noted, that it would be preferred to keep the ice layer rather thin, but within structural soundness.

That way during winters and global dust storms, you could extract energy stored in the water, by letting the ice layer get thicker. A phase change.

------

In post #106 I suggested creating "Island/Oasis" bases of a certain distance from each other where a fleet of Tesla vehicles could recharge, and the people perhaps take a rest. I have suggested that most humans on Mars, perhaps should enjoy summer on Mars twice in a Martian year.

I also mentioned that it is thought by some that Mars has a global aquifer, about 750 meters deep (2500 feet).

So, I think each Island/Oasis could be adjacent and connected to a crater that could be filled with water, and it's permafrost protected by the methods I spoke of previously in this post.

And yes someday perhaps railroads and hyperloops connecting them. But I would start with the Island/Oasis system.

------

Where I do like solar ponds, where you might generate water with a warm temperature at the bottom, that requires salts. Where would you get that on Mars?

But I am thinking the transparent pseudo wood, might make very good enclosures to have under water, where even if surrounded by ice water, they could be warm in their interiors. And pretty much frost free of course.

And I am thinking that if the pseudo wood does work out then long sausage shaped tubes could be put on the surface, and indeed perhaps bamboo or other things.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-08-18 13:26:24)

Void · 2020-08-19 19:28:15

The Angry Ast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H749RINK1OI

I like other perspectives.

Robert Zubrin and Elon Musk are all about space travel, can you even get it done. Although I have to say I see much evidence that various companies supported by Elon Musk, are making useful tools for when you are there.

If I were to respond it is the Morlocks and the Eloy. Ya, we want pretty and nice things, but it takes a lot of productivity to pay for them.

I have played Morlock more than Eloy. The issue is not really real.

I have had many trainings. Electrical/Electronic are among them. I recognize that on a circuit board, you want various components.
I suppose really smart people will laugh at me, but P=I*V. You need current and voltage to have power. But if you don't handle it well you wil burn up your nice circuit board.

Alright then tomorrow....

It's tomorrow, and I seem to be doing just fine. Had a very lengthy computer update that is suppose to protect me online. Seems nice for now. We will see.

Continuing from yesterday....

I am perfectly happy if various entities figure out how to make nice habitats from local Martian material. I am not satisfied that such will have a high agricultural output. It does not hurt to think about what and when you might want to import objects to Mars also to help satisfy needs to boost up productivity.
------
"LESS"
https://hackaday.com/2018/01/19/space-e … nar-orbit/
I was actually searching for an item from "The Martian", but the above might amuse someone. I was totally unaware of the ~50 year old concept. I could not pass it up for a mentioning here.
------
I guess this stuff might set up my explanation of some deviant hardware space thoughts I have had.
(G rated)
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=sp … BasicHover
https://www.cnn.com/videos/business/202 … n-business
So I several things really.
My awareness is this:
-It is best to have a nose/fairing for a Starship if it is to travel up to orbit from Earth. It can contain payload, and it is streamlined.
-Mark Watney was allowed to pop the top off of his ship and put a tarp or whatever to asend from the surface of Mars in that movie, "The Martian". As the Martian atmosphere is so thin.
I will not be suggesting the use of a tarp, just a much less pronounced nose cone on the section of the ship, that is jokingly now called the flying grain silo. This thing can fly at least a bit, and includes most or all of what you might want to get back up to Martian orbit to take down another load. If you could get away with that, then you would not be bringing the fairing back up with it to Low Martian Orbit. You might pay a bit of air drag penalty, but of course you gain by not bringing the fairing back up with it.
And of course I am imagining that another fairing will be in orbit for it to connect to in orbit, to bring down with a cargo. This will present some challenges. The heat shielding will be made more complicated.
Also I am thinking that the flaps and canards should be only attached to the "Grain Silo", not to the fairing. How to balance that may be a problem. One method would be to make the fairing wider, so that when coming down, the flaps and canards do not have to work as hard.
Part of a solution would be to have the same weight cargo inside the fairing every time. That way this version of ship could be designed for a very specific task, and so will not have to be a "Jack of all trades". Smaller flaps and canards perhaps possible maybe then.
Although another cargo might work, I am thinking of something that Spacenut mentioned recently. A bigelo inflatable. Put that inside of the fairing. Always the same weight and balance load.
So this version would land, and some type of lifting device would need to remove the fairing and Biggelo type expandable shelter.
The grain silo would be refilled and would launch back to orbit for another one.
------
How they would get there would be a "Grain Silo" would put them to Earth orbit. The hard part though is can you land a "Grain Silo" on the Earth's surface with a very much reduced nose cone? You left the fairing and load in Earth orbit.
So, I guess you have to come in sideways with a belly flop as is already established as the method. But it will look a bit silly with a stubby on it's front end. But and advantage, you have greatly reduced it's weight, and so need less propelants to land. Perhaps also because it is lighter, your flaps and canards can be smaller. So, hopefully this could be done.
------
How to get a collection of fairings and loads, (Expandable Shelters), to Martian orbit?
Well, you use a starship(s) and expend the fuel. I would hope that you could leave it with a small propulsion system, to make it to Martian orbit some time in transit to Mars.
I am speculating that your propulsive Starship could land itself on Mars with whatever, and you would leave the collection of fairings and loads to find it's own way to Mars. I might mention Ballistic Capture for a component for that method. It would need some kind of minor self propulsion in addition to get to Martian orbit.
Or you use another method. I will pick a plausible one. And electric propulsion system. I know that there is a large dislike for such in some circles, but you could spiral the load to Martian orbit.
If solar pannels were used in the electric propulsion for this, they would not be returning to Earth. They would be put to service for the Mars effort.
There may be other tricks.
------
Now about the loads:
If you land one load with the "Grain Silo", you have a half of a shelter, "The fairing", and a Biggelo type inflatable shelter. A single fairing might serve as a "Diving Bell" in a body of water.
If you land two of the loads with the grain silo's, you may join the two fairings together, and have a metal shell for a possible use as a shelter. You also have two Biggelo type inflatable shelters.
------
Today, it came to me that if you put a Biggelo type shelter into a body of water, you should not need a thickness of ~18 inches. ? How low could you go for thickness? How much of a load reduction could you achieve, and still have the same living space?
You are not going to have space rocks and junk colliding with it, so you can reduce for that.
You are going to be under a layer(s) of atmosphere, ice, and perhaps also water, so you can reduce for that.
How much differential pressure the inflated device must deal with would be determined by how much pressure is outside of the device from atmosphere, ice and maybe water, and what pressure you intended to impose inside of the structure.
Heat would be an issue either way. But rather than putting the inflatable(S) the surface with it's thermal challenges, if you have it submerged in water, you have a much more constant outside temperature, and if it is too cold, then you add heat and/or more thermal insulation, if it overheats, you have a fluid heat sink to dump heat into.
This is not to say that you could not have inflatables for the surface, but they would need different "Specs".
-------
I am "Warming Up", to Kilopower reactors. I think they might be just fine in a ice covered pool of water. Just as long as they do not leak radiation. As for radiation hazards elsewise, I think that the water and ice will tend to make that easier to handle. And I think it would be quite an asset to have the waste heat from the nuclear process dumped into the water of the pool while generating power for the habitats.
But some solar and anti-solar panels might be a good plan as well. The anti-solar panels might be used to dump waste heat from the water into the Martian skies.
I am looking at a pseudo transparent wood, as part of a protective cover for the ice, so during sunshine, some sunshine would enter the pool through the ice.
I think that is plenty.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2020-08-20 14:04:36)

Void · 2020-08-24 19:16:16

In my spare time the last day or two, I have been looking at transparent wood, and things like it.
Transparent wood for Mars is probably going to be not quite the thing. To hard to get wood or wood simulants.
I also discovered that clear wood, is a tricky process that until now uses several not appealing chemical processes. However the Chinese have modified that to use Hydrogen Peroxide to do the bleaching.
Making clear wood appears to be somewhat similar to making paper. To be able to make paper on Mars, and Cardboard could be very important.
I did look into clear paper as a substitute. Unless 3D paper printing of a very fine sort were used, then the wave guide effect for wood would be absent. I am not at all sure if it has sifficient merit to chase after anyway.
Down this line I found quite a lot of support.
Clear Paper:
A childs method, but useful for illustration: https://www.ehow.com/how_6376408_make-p … arent.html
This was a bit too good to pass up. Aparently solar power involved:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41528-019-0048-2
Back to basic transparent paper, this could help:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs … .200803174
My previous research on the internet last night indicated to me that a way to make paper transparent/translucent, is to get rid of the air bubbles in it.
However, I am thinking that paper that is white could have it's transparency level enhanced, by infusing it with a resin as is done to make bleached wood transparent.
So, it is doable.
I then discovered articles saying that you can get cellulose from aquatic plants.
The phrase "A new approach for the isolation of cellulose from aquatic plant".
From a query : www.fao.org, "HANDBOOK OF UTILIZATION OF AQUATIC PLANTS".
http://www.fao.org/3/X6862E/X6862E12.htm#ch11.1
Quote:

2. Paper and Building Materials
Bakshi, T.S., 1964 Control of Vossia cuspidata. An aquatic weed of growing importance. Span, 7(1):37–9
Discussing the control and uses of the aquatic grass Vossia cuspidata in Sierra Leone, the author cites literature suggesting that the plant gives a low yield of short-fibred pulp of poor strength. Therefore paper made from it would be suitable for purposes for which high mechanical strength would be required (e.g. wrapping paper), but it could be used in the manufacture of printing and writing papers.

So, that might be close enough for now.
Here is a bit more:
http://www.fao.org/3/X6862E/X6862E04.htm
Anyway, to avoid seeing the forests for the trees (Weeds), I am going to presume that there is a chance to utlilze aquatic weeds for both animal feed, and paper making on Mars. It may also fit into the human diet in some cases.
So, if paper can be made on Mars and it can be made fairly transparent, of course being me, I am going to want to incorporate it into a covering for ice covered lakes and seas.
------
So, I think it is important to explore all possibilities where we may have pressurized volumes on Mars, and especially if those pressurized volumes might have lighting from sunlight.
So, this is yet another transparancy possibility. I cannot gaurantee that it will stand up to exposure to the Martian surface. But it is worth a look, I think.
The transparent wood is supposed to block U.V. This may not. I may not want it to anyway. Ice below may do, and if more U.V. protection is needed that can be added to the lower surface of the ice somewhere.
I am thinking "Ice Pillows" for the surface. That is I would want a top surface of a pillow to be of the transparent paper. I am believing at this point it could be made vapor tight. But if not then added methods will be needed. The top surface might be bonded to a completion of the pillow with a U.V. resistant polly film, (Which SeaDragon) mentioned, I believe. So then you have inflatable pillows to place on top of the ice surface of a lake or sea.
They will be filled with a fluid. That could be distilled water, which has also been degassed to prevent the formation of air bubbles. The pillows would then be frozen in the case of water. Making "Tile-Blocks". Those will be laid down to form a patio like structure. For Americans that could be a foot thick, just a guess number, so Metric is not a big deal. Experimentation discovery would indicate how thick and big the "Tile-Blocks" should be.
Any cracks between the tiles will be protected. It is natural that wind borne dust will fill the cracks, and that may be sufficient protection. However, although it may attenuate the light a little more, a poly film could be laid under the cracks.
It is intended that the ice below the tiles will never attain a temperature to generate a water vapor pressure to allow sublimation. The tiles will protect the ice surface from the passage of drying Martian winds.
Should the temperature witin a pillow rise, still the envelope will prevent significant evaporation within the pillows.
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I have often talked about ice over melted water. However, that is not the only thing to do with a setup like this.
You may simply have crystal clear ice all the way down in some places.
Some members in the past have pondered a air filled void carved into such ice. I think it could be done. It would be cold, unless you built an insulated chamber inside of the void. This should be possible. It too could have transparancies. I don't think this would be much good for agriculture, without artificial lighting, but it would be a lighted space that the human eye could work with in the daytime. If you had a lava tube submerged under an ice slab, this could be a nice "Upstairs" to have.
A curious thing could be done with an ice block solar collector, (Which is what this would be).
You could run piping through it to extract collected heat. Then that sent to the Skies, to generate electric power, at times of greater need for it.
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And then on to the seas and lakes. Of course you can manufacture them with an ice layer above, and tiles on top of that. For this too, you may store waste heat, and then release it at night and during dust storms, to generate electricity.
I think that Kilopower units inside of sectioned of "Polders" would be a good thing. Where a Kilopower unit sends it's waste heat directly to the Martian skies, it could use cooling water, and that heat dumped to the polders, could then be vented to the Martian skies, for more electricity.
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We have plants that can grow at 1% Earth light. It is discussed in another topic. "Crops, Aquatic". Also Phytoplankton should be able to grow. However the light levels should be a lot better than that during Martian days inside of the lakes and seas so set up.
We start with ~.47 Earth light on Mars, and probably have only at best 90% of that through the pillows. And then if you are careful to treat the ice slabs to remove dirt, and gasses and then refreeze them, a fair amount should get through. It is unkown how thin the slabs could be melted to, to be structurally stable, so that is a thing to discover. I might think that just a few feet might work. In that case more light gets in.
Plants grown in this environment could provide the Cellulose for paper, and also animal feed, and perhaps some materials to make resins out of.
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So, a bunch of self growing, (With human help and guidance to machines), solar collectors covering perhaps 1/3rd to 2/3rds of the Martian surface ultimately, if that is desired.
Done.

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#101 2020-08-14 11:28:45

Re: Converting Slabs of ice into seas. Brine Resouces.

#102 2020-08-14 11:31:33

Re: Converting Slabs of ice into seas. Brine Resouces.

#103 2020-08-14 15:31:06

Re: Converting Slabs of ice into seas. Brine Resouces.

#104 2020-08-14 15:33:50

Re: Converting Slabs of ice into seas. Brine Resouces.

#105 2020-08-18 08:25:44

Re: Converting Slabs of ice into seas. Brine Resouces.

#106 2020-08-18 08:29:44

Re: Converting Slabs of ice into seas. Brine Resouces.

#107 2020-08-18 08:39:57

Re: Converting Slabs of ice into seas. Brine Resouces.

#108 2020-08-18 11:25:09

Re: Converting Slabs of ice into seas. Brine Resouces.

#109 2020-08-18 12:51:06

Re: Converting Slabs of ice into seas. Brine Resouces.

#110 2020-08-19 19:28:15

Re: Converting Slabs of ice into seas. Brine Resouces.

#111 2020-08-24 19:16:16

Re: Converting Slabs of ice into seas. Brine Resouces.

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