Converting Slabs of ice into seas. Brine Resouces.

Void · 2020-07-10 11:04:27

I think I will vastly expand on post #73.

We could so far more.

I think we will have "Flying saucer submarines", Mushrooms and other things. And we will take the polar waters and all waters on Mars.

To collect light from under ice, perhaps a flying saucer submarine would make sense. Perhaps it would be in part made of concrete.

Probably we want it to be nuclear of some type. Not retarded nuclear. The kind that can poison your habitats. Send those people back to Earth, or out of the solar system if possible.

So, what if you had a diving bell shaped like a flying saucer? Put a transparent diving bell over it. Now you don't need a cable lift to get to the plants you are growing. And to the degree that your transparent plastic bell has tensile strength, you may move up in the water column higher to get more sunlight. Should your transparent bell rupture, you may "Dive, Dive, Dive".

Your saucer could have screw propulsion, or also legs like a sea creature to crawl on the bottom. Think of a sand dollar with legs and propellers.

You could section off the transparent diving bell to become multiple bubbles. So, the the damage a rupture could cause would be limited. The people for an apartment with a private bubble, would have methods along with robotic automation, to insure that a fault would not cascade through the entire disk.

Such a disk could be made to resemble a Mushroom, if it had a stem to land on. So the stem would be connected to the undergrounds, and for cultural exchange, you could exchange Mushroom tops. This could be useful to keep tribal urges modified so that reptilian insanity could be kept at a low burn, not an explosion.

While you want the intellectual movement, that can facilitate creativity, you don't want to allow explosive cultural force to build up. We are trying to build, not destroy.

I feel that there is no reason to not turn just about every ice body, into a sea, if it is possible, on Mars.

The polar ice caps are much too high to be of optimal use. Therefore, methods must be devised to spread the water/ice out, pancake it.

And I think that with powerful infrastructure on Mars, we may be able to approach magical domes over water, that will allow open water for our Flying Saucer/Mushroom habitats, or at least thin very clear ice.

I like.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-07-10 11:33:00)

Void · 2020-07-10 11:50:33

So, then we will have to fly over tall Mushrooms in a single swim.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Jo … &FORM=VIRE
Now that's peacocking, sort of:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Jo … &FORM=VIRE
Yes, there are unfortunately jerks on Mars:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxhist=0

Anyway think of the Zodanga as the male cultural factor, movement, in longer circles, and the Helium as the female cultural factor, moving in shorter circles.

Flying saucer mobile, Stem roots, relatively stationary. Then make the whole work together culturally. Never let the differences become explosive.

And kiss me if you think I am politically incorrect. Figure it out.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-07-10 12:00:29)

Calliban · 2020-07-11 05:24:47

A flying saucer shaped habitat could certainly be made to work. Buoyant forces and the pressure gradient will tend to pull it into a tear drop shape. So you will need to include tensile and compressing elements within its structure if you want it to maintain its shape.

You would probably want to anchor the habitat to base of the lake to maintain stability and to ensure that it does not drift away from shore side cable connections. I assume that the nuclear power station will be built onshore.

Calliban · 2020-07-11 05:50:48

Void wrote:

Probably we want it to be nuclear of some type. Not retarded nuclear. The kind that can poison your habitats. Send those people back to Earth, or out of the solar system if possible.

Not sure I know what you mean. Nuclear power is so crippled by regulation and red tape on Earth, that it has become impossibly expensive to even build a nuclear power reactor. It has gone from being the cheapest form of energy to the most expensive. But we need it to be cheap, because we are going to need a lot of energy if we are using electricity to grow food and waste heat to melt cubic kilometres of ice.

There are a lot of questions in my mind about this. Are we going to build nuclear power systems on Earth and ship them to Mars in their entirety? Or will that end up becoming impossibly complex and expensive, with miles of red tape that makes it impossible? Do we ship the primary systems to Mars and attempt to build secondary systems there? Or will we end up having to build the whole thing from scratch on Mars using native resources? If we can at least get enriched uranium from Earth it opens up a lot more options. If we have to use natural uranium from Mars, then our options are limited. We are basically limited to graphite moderated reactors, either gas cooled or RBMK. It need not be dangerous, but there are operating rules and trip settings that you have to respect. I wouldn't live in fear of a nuclear accident.

Molten salt breeder reactors are possible in principle, but these things have not been well developed even on Earth. They require a lot of enriched fissile material for startup and require very careful control of the composition and oxidation state of the salt, otherwise you get severe corrosion. And the reactor vessel needs to be made from high quality nickel alloys. Not something we could easily build on Mars. It would need to be shipped from Earth.

I initially favoured the RBMK reactor technology. The reason is that it allows very powerful reactors to be built very quickly and cheaply with limited resources. It is a direct cycle, pressure tube boiling water reactor. The graphite moderator stack is only lightly pressurized, so no big pressure vessel is needed. To scale up the power, you just add more pressure tubes and a bigger steam drum. And because it is a graphite moderated reactor with relatively little water in the core, it will run on natural non enriched uranium, which we can mine on Mars.

Because of the positive void coefficient problem, some special design precautions are needed to ensure safety. There need to be reliable trip settings if power surges are detected and also trip setting on feedwater temperature and pressure. We would avoid doing stupid things like putting graphite followers on control rods. And there need to be operating rules that are stuck to. If these precautions are followed, there is no reason why we cannot use this reactor safely. It is something we could build on Mars affordably and rated at high power levels.

Last edited by Calliban (2020-07-11 05:51:55)

tahanson43206 · 2020-07-11 07:36:25

For Calliban re #79

It is encouraging to see your thinking about nuclear fission power on Mars (and by extension anywhere away from Earth)

While nuclear power to achieve Void's visions of lakes on Mars is perfectly in line with the needs of this topic, I would like to offer the suggestion for a dedicated topic at an appropriate Index level to lay out as much accumulated knowledge and insight as the members can muster.

I had logged in just now to offer a post about maintenance of equipment on Mars (and anywhere away from Earth). Your notes about supervision of power generating equipment (in this case nuclear) are important to keep in mind. Humans (adult/responsible humans) will need to be able to maintain and replace ALL mechanical systems created on Mars.

For SpaceNut .... It is possible you know of an existing topic with a tight focus on nuclear fission power plants on Mars. If there is such a topic, this would be a good time to bump it back into view.

It is possible for the NewMars forum to slowly but steadily increase the respectability of a few of the topics constructed here, while at the same time maintaining plenty of open space for creative thinking including pure fantasy.

(th)

Void · 2020-07-11 08:30:07

OK, this is all rough work, but I think a Saucer with multiple transparent bubbles on its deck could be a pretty good thing. Maybe nuclear of some kind some day. OK Calaban, what I am thinking of for instance is where you store your spent fuel rods above a reactor, so that when there if their is an earthquake, they fall into an out of control reaction. So, where it was clever and efficient to bleed heat off from those, apparently nobody cared what the consequences could be. And then there is if your reactor can catch on fire.

But I do believe that there may be more controllable situations where such stupidity, is reduced.

When I say nuclear, to me for this topic Fission and Fusion are all possibilities, and if they can be implemented, they will be a good fit.

However we could do all of it with solar, should somehow nuclear options not be available.

I was really excited when I realized that if the polar ice caps were turned into seas over a long period of time, if the final sea was say 2 bars of pressure deep at the most, then the footprint for those seas would be 10-15 times as big as the area of the existing ice caps.

I realized at that point that in time the methods to allow light though protective coverings on ice can be much more than what is possible now.

So, I kind of got out of control, thinking what that could look like.

http://www.spacetoday.org/SolSys/Mars/M … n%20summer.
Quote:

The caps on Mars expand outward from the poles to cover up to 30 percent of the planet's surface area during the martian winter, but shrink to smaller caps covering only one percent of the planet's surface in summer.

So, the caps themselves could cover about 10-15 percent of Mars. But then it seems likely that other vast amounts of ice are buried at high latitudes, and a fair amount at mid latitudes. So, those would be rather large bodies of water, either big lakes or small seas, depending on how someone would like to define it.

I expect that over time, as technology would get better and better at protecting ice and open water from the atmosphere of Mars, and also as that atmosphere might double or triple in pressure, the population that Mars could support should grow and grow.

And that would be a highly habitable planet, where SSTO is reasonable to do. So the rest of the solar system in time.

Done.

Not Done.

If you only used 2 bars for where cities are, you could easily go down to 1/2 bar for farming areas. And greatly expand the surface of Mars where useful productivity could exist. It is very exciting.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-07-11 08:55:07)

Calliban · 2020-07-11 10:47:34

Yes. According to Wiki, some 21million cubic km of ice have been detected on the surface of near subsurface of Mars, enough to cover the entire planet to a depth of 35 metres.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_on_Mars

Long before Mars is terra formed, it will have been 'aquaformed'. Assuming that fusion can be made to work, Mars could support a population of billions beneath ice covered ponds and lakes, using artificial light to subsidise sunlight. I have often wondered, if terraforming was likely to be something that happens as a byproduct of human activity. As more and more humans move to Mars and generate nuclear waste heat, the planet warms up. Carbon dioxide then evaporates creating a thicker atmosphere.

Void · 2020-07-11 13:23:00

I do not subscribe entirely to the story, that the atmosphere of Mars all floated away.

There are thoughts that Mars had periods of gushing rivers off and on up to 1 billion years ago. This is the claim:
https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sc … -years-ago

So, with declining volcanism, I am quite sure you know what that might mean for the atmosphere.

------

I also don't trust the measurement of heavy Hydrogen on Mars.

In my opinion, with the solar wind impacting the Martian atmosphere, as it does because it is not protected by a magnetic field very well, I am inclined to think that Mars both generates water from that, and probably retains the heavy water easier. Yes we expect it to get sliced up repeatedly, but maybe also reform to water again, and Maybe, percolate down to the surface.

Water is generated on the Moon, when protons impact into the regolith, and then micrometeorite impacts provide enough heat to generate water. It could be that while the summer side of the planet will rip up the molecules generated, the winter side, will let them enter the atmosphere. So, I don't trust the heavy water calculation as saying how much water left the planet. Or, I am just a tiny bit suspicious that it has been skewed by heavy hydrogen from the sun's solar wind.

------

As you have indicated, relatively warm bodies of water created to 'aquaform' the planet will eventually warm up the regolith, and it might release materials from Clathrates.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-07-11 13:34:01)

Void · 2020-07-11 13:53:00

I thought perhaps the members may be amused by this potential option. I do realize I am posting too much, will try to modify that.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4794207/
Quote(s):

Abstract
Salt flats (sabkha) are a recognized habitat for microbial life in desert environments and as analogs of habitats for possible life on Mars. Here we report on the physical setting and microbiology of interdune sabkhas among the large dunes in the Rub' al Khali (the Empty Quarter) in Liwa Oasis, United Arab Emirates. The salt flats, composed of gypsum and halite, are moistened by relatively fresh ground water. The result is a salinity gradient that is inverted compared to most salt flat communities with the hypersaline layer at the top and freshwater layers below. We describe and characterize a rich photosynthetically-based microbial ecosystem that is protected from the arid outside environment by a translucent salt crust. Gases collected from sediments under shallow ponds in the sabkha contain methane in concentrations as high as 3400 ppm. The salt crust could preserve biomarkers and other evidence for life in the salt after it dries out. Chloride-filled depressions have been identified on Mars and although surface flow of water is unlikely on Mars today, ground water is possible. Such a near surface system with modern groundwater flowing under ancient salt deposits could be present on Mars and could be accessed by surface rovers.

Introduction
Hypersaline environments are often found in deserts where intense evaporation and low levels of water input create concentrations of salt. Such environments are of interest as examples of life in extremes and are also relevant to the question of life on Mars–a cold desert world. Salt flats are relevant analogs for habitats for life on Mars both because salt can stabilize water as liquid at low temperature and pressure and because a salt crust can preserve evidence of past life. Accordingly, there has been considerable discussion of the relevance of coastal salt flats of marine origin as possible environments for life on Mars and as sites of preservation of biomarkers [1–4]. Desert salt flats have been studied as well. Davila et al. [5] reported on hydroscopic salts trapping atmospheric water to supply photosynthetic microbes in salt domes in the driest regions of the Atacama Desert [6]. Douglas and coworkers [7–9] conducted a series of studies in the mineralogical and microbiological properties of the Badwater salt flat in Death Valley, California. Barbieri et al. [10] considered organic preservation and biosignatures in dry salt flats of gypsum from Upper Pleistocene evaporite deposits of the Chott el Gharsa, a wide continental “sabkha” (a transliteration of the Arabic word for a salt flat) in southern Tunisia. Coastal sabkha are present along the Arabian Gulf (a.k.a. the Persian Gulf) along the northern coastline of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) [11,12] as subtidal flats, intertidal flats, and in particular as extensive supratidal flats [13]. There are also sabkhas deep inland in the UAE in the Liwa Oasis within the dunes of the Rub' al Khali (the Empty Quarter) which is an extensive area of aeolian dunes covering much of the Arabian Peninsula, including part of the UAE and eastern Saudi Arabia [14]. Small basins between the dunes connect to the water table, creating a flat level below which aeolian deflation cannot readily occur [14]. The interdune flats may be sites of erosion or deposition, and may be classified according to moisture content as dry, damp, wet, or evaporitic [14] and can contain salt crusts [14–16]. These inland sabkha are an interesting analog for salt deposits on Mars and are the focus of this study.
Salt deposits are important targets in the search for life on Mars. Recent orbital data have indicated brine deposits associated with the seasonal dark streaks on Mars known as recurring slope lineae [17]. The indicated salts are calcium perchlorate and magnesium perchlorate. However chloride salts are expected on Mars as well. Orbital spectral data indicates that there are chloride-bearing deposits, likely formed in an evaporitic environment in the ancient geologic regions of Mars [18–20]. The surface conditions at these locations are currently too dry to support life and the pressure is too low to allow liquid water. The deposits on Mars are at the low levels in the basin but the elevation of the deposits is high, 1260 m above the average Martian surface [18]. The inland sabkhas of the Liwa Oasis may be an analog for how these Martian salt flats could support life just below the surface in the present climate of Mars.
The hydrology of the Liwa Oasis has been well-studied because the shallow aquifer is an important source of fresh water for human use. Thus, the age and structure of the aquifer, the flow and composition of the groundwater, and the nature of the salt flats, are well-described [16,21–26] and summarized briefly here. The location of the Liwa Oasis is shown in Fig 1 [27]. The landscape is dominated by large sand dunes with interdune spaces [14,15,28]. The sand is deposited on a flat layer of middle Miocene-age carbonates, which is essentially at sea level [16]. The aquifer contains water that is held in the sand dunes bounded below by the impermeable carbonate layer [16]. This is shown schematically in Fig 2. The water table crests in the interior of the dune field and slopes downward following the topography of the dunes. In the interdune areas, particularly near the edge of the dune field, the level of the ground water can reach the surface and wet surfaces are produced. Over time these wet areas accumulate solutes from evaporation and a salt flat (sabkha) is formed.

So, where I have previously thought about moving water from where it naturally condenses, to locations desired, I will suggest getting the water from the atmophere.

If we forget about having transparent methods to let photons into water, there may be another way.

Build a "Tin Shed". In truth we would build it out of whatever materials might work. Put solar panels on top of it for electricity.

Put a "Floor over the ice layer", put salts on it. Blow early morning air into the "Shed", that has a salt layer.

In the day the tin shed will heat up naturally, and you can then suck the water vapor that comes out of the heated salts, into your lake/sea.

And then if you want to impose life supporting methods into the lake waters from electricity, you can. That would be artificial lights, and perhaps chemosynthesis, probably both.

And you could use poisonous perchlorate salts for this if you wanted to.

I am thinking the Hellas basin on Mars, and also the rift valley, and pretty much anywhere else you want to do it.

Southern Hellas attracts me, but I believe it lacks ground ice.

Should we succeed in doubling the Martian air pressure, I expect that Hellas will be well above 22 mbar, due to atmospheric compression.

Wild guess, 30 mbar???? Again I don't have the mental ability or the ambition to calculate that out well.

Still, it will actually be getting towards better ice stability, and just maybe even instances of temporary open water pools, should it snow.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-07-11 14:04:55)

Void · 2020-07-11 18:28:21

Spacenut provided this in another topic: "Index» Human missions» Going Solar...the best solution for Mars.". Post#338
Quote:

https://www.solartronenergy.com/hcpv-solar/
HCPV Solar Parabolic Solar Concentrator Technology
We have talked about high temperature PV cells in a few topics and this companies seems to be where we need solar to be.
Concentrating photovoltaic (CPV) technology uses optics such as lenses or curved mirrors to concentrate a large amount of sunlight onto a small area of solar photovoltaic (PV) cells to generate electricity. CPV multi-junction solar cell efficiencies of 46% are being reached compared to conventional solar power tower steam engine efficiency of 14% and average PV panel efficiency of 15%. Solartron works with CPV manufacturers and solar power plant project developers and provides a state-of-the-art parabolic solar concentrator for use with CPV multi-junction solar cell modules.

Very good material Spacenut, Thanks.

Last edited by Void (2020-07-11 18:34:59)

Void · 2020-07-11 18:36:05

So, I see this as a very good device for maintaining ice covered dominantly liquid habitats.

I think that due to low Martian gravity, and winds that are far less of a problem, it can be made from lighter materials. This Spacenut also suggested.

But for the parabolic mirror, I am thinking Styrofoam, with a reflective coating. The other surfaces may need a protective coating as well.
If Styrofoam, is not strong enough, then embed a wire mesh in it.

This then being lighter, the supporting structures can also be lighter. And of course that was obvious to the other members as well.

I am usually worried about the consumption of Copper and Aluminum, so I would like to avoid that when alternatives exist, or at least reduce the amount of consumption. We do have Chromium, Iron, and Titanium available in the sand dune materials, and of course from other sources.

One very good thing about these robots, is that they could be standardized, so that if for instance you had 3 needing repairs, and no parts on hand, you could perhaps get two out of 3 running, by taking parts from the 3rd.

As I see it, power grids are to be a problem.

Here, I suggest that a ice platform over a lake or sea, could allow the passage of at least 2 pipes, of a more common materials through the ice, to be the base of the machine, and to also allow communication of the surface resources into the liquid medium below. I am thinking of a diving bell being the other part of the machine, and it would be below the ice.

It would be preferred that the air content of the diving bell portion will be suitable for human breathing if necessary. To accomplish the needed minimum pressure, we have the weight of the ice above, plus the water column from the ice to the bottom lip of the bell. I would think we would want 1/3 bar. Therefore in this scheme, the ice could be rather thick, perhaps 2/3rds of the pressure needed?

Electricity in water is going to be a safety issue, but not impossible to handle.

In the the event that we do not wish to use Copper or Aluminum for this we will use the two or more pipes to transfer electrical power from the upside to the downside. We would have LED's in the bell, so it might resemble a lamp. And that is what it would be.

I would want a battery in each diving bell assembly. The battery would be in an environment more tolerable than topside.

The two pipes may also serve as conduits to transfer gasses. That might be a problem, unless handled so as to not poison humans. But Martian air could be input to the lake by this method. Perhaps some other gasses might be vented.

The LED's light up the lake. The battery may also be used to store energy, for multiple purposes. Life support for a human, maybe. Being able to modify the length of the "Day" in the lake.

Also, I am thinking that when the heliostats above were not following the sun, I am hoping that some way may be created where they could microwave beam energy to a central rectenna tower on the topside. Maybe at night. Drawing from the battery. I believe they would need to be synchronized in their efforts. A human habitat perhaps below the ice, would then take power from the rectenna.

That's about it. I think this scheme could work well in mid latitude ice bodies.

------

How to get the devices on Mars, where we would want them. At first up to LEO in a Starship. Then carried to Mars by a "Best Means".
You might know that my favorite involves using them in flight. Solar wind propulsion? Ion Drive?

Brought down to the surface with a Starship. Deployed.

Over time, to build the mirrors on Mars. I think that would be not all that hard, down the road.

Just one more thing. To manipulate these things in orbit(s), where now an EVA is out side the international space station, I believe it will be desirable to have a "Garage". It would modify the environment. A human would be inside of it, life support from Umbilicals. The thermal environment inside moderated, lighting suitable, protection from collision hazards reduced. Therefore less of a space suit needed.

I am hoping that these devices can be folded up or collectivized so as to take much less space when in a Starship. Diving bells stacked.
Mirrors stacked. Something like that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-07-11 19:08:23)

SpaceNut · 2020-07-11 19:54:23

I did snip of the construction of the dish for another topic as it applied to the use of solar and of concentrating that energy for use.

Then I happened upon this image one can dream of the day....

Calliban · 2020-07-12 15:00:22

Void, as GW pointed out in another thread, serious colonization of Mars with thousands of people, can only be attempted through the use of nuclear pulse propulsion. If we developed that sort of capability, are we really going to be messing about with solar panels in the far northern hemisphere of Mars? I think not. It is clear to me now, that the sort of culture prepared to do what it takes to colonize the solar system is not going to be interested in Green political idealism. If you want to reach other planets, then you need to learn to love the atom and take radiation in your stride, much as we take air pollution in our stride when we operate international airports. We all know that there are health consequences from burning diesel in jet engines. Yet we accept that price because we want to jet around the world to exotic places. If you want to colonize the solar system, then you must accept radioactive pollution as the price to be paid.

The next 50 years may enable this politically. The global economy is going tits up because of the declining EROI of fossil fuels. Very soon, people will face the choice between greater use of nuclear energy and a wealthy lifestyle, or a poor, third world lifestyle, based on wind power. I have a hunch about what choice they will ultimately make. Right now, they think there are other ways of getting what they want.

Last edited by Calliban (2020-07-12 15:10:59)

SpaceNut · 2020-07-12 15:28:25

Radiation is solved on earth so why can we not do so for trips beyond LEO has to do with cost to lift the materials or sufficient mass which work. That is why we design with the water we must take, the food that is frozen, and with a variety of materials to make it so that less of that fear gets through.
Nuclear on a planet is different and should be very tame able...

Void · 2020-07-12 18:35:22

Nuclear is not wrong, it is a contender.

SpaceX is possibly real. Much else is beyond my grave. SpaceX says solar, as it is unlikely that they will be given nuclear permissions for a time unless being able in the future to unlock some doors, by proving to be useful to the gatekeepers.

So, you go with what you know, until you discover more.

Done.

tahanson43206 · 2020-07-12 20:05:01

For Void re nuclear power for Mars (as it relates to this topic) ...

The hesitancy of the United States to work with nuclear fission is understandable (to me at least) considering the history.

However, Russia, China and India all have nuclear power, and all are space faring nations with expressed interest in Mars.

The ambitions of Americans are certainly interesting and they may happen.

The Americans can (presumably) trade something the Russians, Indians and Chinese might want for nuclear power, which (of course) they would control closely.

At this point I have no idea what the trade goods might be, but perhaps the Americans will prove useful in some minor way.

(th)

Void · 2020-07-12 20:50:12

I can only speak for myself. I am not a representative of anything but me.
What other nations will do, is their concern, and the concern of people who have authority in various places.
As for the me. We have tried to suggest to other peoples how thing might be done. They have refused, and even done just the opposite.
That they can do. The consequences of it are theirs to bear.

My authorities above me? I can only hope that they are very qualified, but I cannot properly analyze what those qualifications are.

I can calculate what is likely to be probably permitted, and so, I must think to work within those bounds.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-07-12 20:53:33)

SpaceNut · 2020-07-12 21:01:25

We as a small group that can and do have nuclear capability and can get to orbit must learn how to trust each other when it comes to space and not militarizing there in. The ISS has been just that experiment in trust and of not making the station for military high ground but for mankind instead. Trusting one and the others to help keep each other safe while onboard the station. This partnership right now is limited for the most part for the nations that do put people onboard but its up to the partners to grow the number of members doing so.

Void · 2020-07-23 12:22:52

So, I guess I will start up again, with emphasis on minerals and Oxygen to extract from objects that should have been impacting Mars from the beginning. For Earth, those get recycled, and to degree dropped lower, maybe even to the core, but I think that for the Moon and Mars this may not be so much true.

For Mars, I also wonder about early bodies of water and ice that could have influenced the process of impacting. And still we have many slabs of ice which we think have been deposited over time, to different places on Mars, and may have modified what happens to asteroid materials if they impact Mars. I guess the primary interest is mining, possibly in association with presumed asteroid fragments which may have survived impact in part by falling into ice and earlier even water.

Louis some time ago informed me of a large deposit of Hematite, which exists. However if it were under a slab of ice, I would think it would be hidden. I also think that valuable minerals may be hidden by wind born and water born processes, over time, especially in the Northern Hemisphere, and other low spots such as Hellas. It will have to be a discovery to find out in which cases, the asteroid materials may of a useful condition for mining. It seems harder to presume that material that dropped into a Northern sea billions of years ago would be chemically undisturbed, but I am guessing that we might hope to find stuff from say a billion years ago. I believe that that is the cutoff point for huge rivers which may have still existed intermittently.

I chose that primary time limit also for the report that the Moon and Earth apparently were bombarded by a huge series of impacts of asteroids, about 800 Million years ago. Mars being closer to the asteroid belt than Earth, I have to presume that it also participated. It would not have had significant bodies of water anymore but large ice slabs, perhaps more than even now. I am thinking how such ice slabs might have modified the consequences of impact, maybe leaving a more survivable deposit from them.

So, ~800 million years ago:
https://bgr.com/2020/07/22/asteroid-imp … years-ago/

So, it is likely that there has bean a lot of change in tilt for Mars over those years, so during that time ice slabs may have been in places other than where they are now, especially at lower latitudes. But still, there are good chances that materials will be found under existing slabs, as the process since then was likely not as intense, it still must have been ongoing into the now.

This suggests that the process is ongoing even now.
https://bgr.com/2020/07/22/asteroid-imp … years-ago/
https://mars.nasa.gov/news/372/mro-sees … r-impacts/

So, size likely matters. Some have said that these objects will vaporize on impact, but I think that the ice will modify that.
I am speculating that an ideal size would lead to a deposit of the materials at the bottom of the ice slab, or perhaps just a bit into the regolith.

My hope is that if these ice slabs were converted into ice covered seas, these deposits could be detected and turned into a resource.
Also it may be that other more conventional ore bodies could be discovered and made into a resource.

I think it will be easier to detect and reach any such, by melting the ice.

If any of this is true, and I think it should be, we can consider the resources represented by these deposits.
-Fossil heat sink. Take your pick of energy sources, solar or nuclear, probably both, it is likely to be an easy to access heat sink for an electrical power plant.
-It obviously offers greater radiation protection than the surface.
-Of course we are expecting minerals.
-But there should be an Abiotic/Biotic Chemosynthesis potential. I am guessing that if there are some impactor materials, of various types, we can expect chemical reactions that biology can use for energy and nutrition, if the waters are melted. Among those might be the corrosion of metals that should produce Hydrogen in the water, and also chemical traces that could be useful in detecting larger concentrations that might be mined.

For this, it might be acceptable to just melt a layer of water at the base of the ice, leaving a very thick ice raft above, covered by soil deposits. Much less fuss about getting photons directly into the water through ice. Much more thermal insulation.

Such does not stop you from having underwater lighting for photosynthesis at the same time. In fact that would contribute to melting more ice.

And I think that it should be quite easy to have chambers that are on the bottom, and perhaps also extend a bit upwards into the ice, where you could have an air environment, and dry land crops, or pond crops such as rice, if that is what you want. Again the waste heat only melts more ice. Having them a bit into the ice, is electrically useful, as it should be easier to prevent short circuits, and Galvanic corrosion, in the ice, rather than in water.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

Robotic submarines should be able to detect buried larger deposits by magnetism and contours among other things. For instance craters should be identifiable. And for these shaft mining might be a plan that would work.

So, in some cases we might hope for a relatively pure ore, presuming that these have been relatively protected from chemical reactions by the cold and ice.

So, in this version of ice covered seas, I am thinking of rather cold water. If fresh not warmer on the bottom than 39 degF / 3.88888889 degC. That should work for fresh water, but of course there are bound to be some salts. But for fresh water the slightly warmer bottom water would be under a transition from 0 degC water and 0 degC ice.

I don't think you would worry too much if the water layer were a bit "Thicker" in some areas, but I would think you might prefer a water layer of about 8 feet / 2.4384 meters in most places, exposing the bottom soil for chemical reactions and mineral extractions.

So, the water would be quite cold for the most part, but not to worry, no reason you cannot have an enclosure on the bottom, where you have a warm swimming pool.

I am thinking that it would be nice if you could leave the soil overburden as is. However if it is so thick that it deforms the ice in a manner unpleasant, then some robots could redistribute it.

As for Uranium, it is just possible that the salts in the water may contain some to extract. No promise there, just chances. After all there should be asteroid fragments including asteroid cores strewn about.

I have more, but I will inflict that on you later perhaps.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-07-23 13:27:19)

Void · 2020-07-23 14:07:17

So, building on the previous post #94, a thin liquid layer under a significant layer of dirt covered ice was considered.

If this were the preferred way to handle slabs of ice, then you do have a "Plenum" of sorts, of ice water you can move through and water and ice that you can run utility services through.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plenum_space

But I am having a great interest in mining associated with this. I have mentioned air and water filled chambers attached to the bottom, where more pleasant conditions can be imposed.

I also think that a tunnel system filled with air under the sea bottom is not a bad idea at all. Facilitating easier travel between points of interest, and also being associated with mining.

Obviously the Boring Company could be an import for that.

I also like this for Mars, even though they specify it for the Moon:
https://libertyhorn.com/what-europeans- … 0from%20it.
Quote:

What?! Europeans Have Developed a Way to Make Oxygen from Moon Dust

Ya, they be smarts sometimes.

It could likely process asteroid materials from the bottom of the sea, if such exists.

But, it occurs to me that if you can create a underground vault, you might create it by removing the Oxygen and Metals. Less tailings to dispose of. Might be a good source of Oxygen. If you really got good at it perhaps you could build an atmosphere for Mars, while making a very extensive underground system for Mars, throughout the planets subsurface. And all the Metals, of course there would be various uses for those. Some on the surface of Mars, and perhaps some to make habitats in orbit.

Long before you could breath the Martian air you would have whole worlds underground, under seas, in in the skies.

Usually though the really big vaults would likely be associated with an ore body.

Seems like the way to go to me. The waste heat for the most part would go into the waters.

------

I mentioned a sort of natural chemosynthesis which might be associated with the rusting of materials in the sea water. But of course as I have said before, you could pump a metered amount of Martian air into the water, and also manufactured Hydrogen, and get Methane.

Or you could put sufficient Oxygen into the waters and grow fish that would feed off of the chemosynthetic food chain. Cold water and possibly dark (You could furnish some light), but I am thinking it is likely that their could be some fish that might feed on chemosynthetic plankton. You also have the possibility of filter feeding creatures that might secrete calcium shells, which might be of value.

This of course does not outlaw air or water filled "Greenhouses". I guess it might always be nice to have some more direct association with sunlight.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-07-23 14:24:22)

Void · 2020-07-23 18:40:15

I suppose I should continue.

There has been something that I wanted to tap as a resource on Mars. It seems that it is a hard thing. I want to tap the Carbon Monoxide and the Oxygen traces generated in the Martian atmosphere.

I think I am close now. Not that I am sure that it will be very productive. Maybe in time with advancing technology.

If a ice slab were covered with elevated solar panels, then there could be an enclosure under it. Among uses, to shelter robots.

I would also like to ponder a primitive form of agriculture.

Testing Lichen in a Mars chamber indicates that the most significant impediment to it's growth would be full value Martian U.V. spectrum.

Under solar cells, it would not exist. However there would not be visible light in large quantities, unless you provided windows for it between solar panels. Lichen can grow in cracks in rocks, because of the attenuation of the solar flux in a crack in a rock. I am not sure what use farming lichen would be however. Or if the thermal fluctuations night/day would serve to offer sufficient relative humidity for it. It would in the open, night temperatures can give enough moisture. So, in theory, you could farm lichen under the solar panels.

This would almost certainly not be very productive, but it seems it might be a possibility of an actual form of agriculture. That is unless the Fungi portion of the Lichen could gain metabolic power from the Carbon Monoxide and Oxygen traces in the air of Mars. I don't know if that would be true, but it might. Fungi specialize in breaking down Hydrocarbons, and I guess Carbon Monoxide is related.

If air flow were possible in and out of the solar panel enclosure, then if also a relative humidity of 70% to 100% were achieved in some of the nights. The structure itself at night might collect frost on occasion on the inside.

So, struggling to better the case, I suggest that instead of Lichen, then perhaps microbes that indeed do consume CO and O2 in trace amounts. In a salt solution, perhaps at a value of -10 degC. I guess that would have to be in basins.

Ya, I am reaching, but it is on my fingertips.

For your amusement, maybe:
https://www.sciencealert.com/antarctica … osphere%3F
https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/ … -monoxide/

Something to work on. Other factors could be pressurizing the enclosure just a bit. Else look for a chance to collect moisture in the salts.

It needs work, but I think I am closer.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-07-23 19:03:41)

Void · 2020-07-24 09:01:14

Referencing "Index» Life support systems» Atmospheric Separations". Post #67, a Plasma source is thought by me to provide processing of various outputs to provide various potential outputs: Methane, H2, Higher Hydrocarbons, Nitrogen, Argon, Organic Detritus, and waste heat to be captured in ice covered reservoirs.

I have a better notion because of this, of possible construction practices for initially portions of the temperate zones of Mars, and eventually the potential to expand to higher latitudes, and even perhaps lower latitudes with the methods. So, these potential methods can be related to Atmospheric Separations, Terraforming Mars, and as a Terraforming sub-method, to cool and shrink the Martian atmosphere as per atmospheric column profile (Hoping to reduce atmospheric losses, not to seek to make the atmosphere disappear).

The above involves anoxic and partially anoxic agriculture as part of its processes.

As a companion to the above, it will be desired to have a source of Oxygen. This can be from plants, extracted from Water or CO2, or lately a favorite of mine extracted from rock, to also produce Metals and other solid substances of use.

While Oxygen producing agriculture methods are described by various members on this site and elsewhere, I want to focus on artificial lighting at this time.

I anticipate that solar power methods, and lighting methods will become more capable over time. They are already attractive now.

For the temperate latitudes of Mars, where significant ice deposits exist, a scheme of structure could be very useful, that I will describe. Of course it is strongly related to previous attempts.

I will mention one ice slab that we have mentioned before, as a potential place to do this.

Had to stop to clean up my software again.

Here it is:
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … ts%20added.
Quote:

A giant slab of ice as big as California and Texas combined lurks just beneath the surface of Mars between its equator and north pole, researchers say.
This ice may be the result of snowfall tens of millions of years ago on Mars, scientists added.

So that is the potential scale of it.

So, I am thinking "Tin Sheds to the extent of covering the entirety of this slab, and others if desired.

Not actually made of Tin of course. Rather a roofing where solar cells slanted towards the equator make part of the roof, and anti-solar cells and/or heat exchangers slanted towards the poles make most of the rest of it.

In this case these chambers could be slightly pressurized if that is a useful thing to do for other reasons.

I have in recent previous posts suggested just melting the bottom of the slab of ice, as a series of pools as desired, which can be partitioned by berms of relatively loose regolith.

The ice slab above should be about ~~~100 feet thick supplying plenty of ice column compression and thermal insulation to the waters below. So then ~~~30.48 Meters of ice.

So, then back to the sheds up above. The days, where there is not significant dust storm activity should see some radiant heat go to the top of the ice where presently there is a layer of relatively fine regolith with some rocks. That will absorb some radiant heat, as the solar panels should give off some on the underside of the panels from the sunlight's heating of the top sides.

In the absence of that heating, then that heat should be given off by the "Dirt", and power the anti-solar cells. But I think we could do better, by converting the soil to bricks for a radiant heat exchanger method instead of dirt.

There are claims that Martian regolith can be converted to bricks just by squeezing it.
https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/27/1543 … pull%20off.
Quote:

Simulated Mars soil can be packed together into a solid brick-like material — without needing any added ingredients to hold it together. That might mean real Martian soil could be easily used as a tool for building structures like habitats on the Red Planet’s surface, which could make human missions to Mars less complicated to pull off.

The above method while having many benefits, also may allow for regulation of the heat of the Martian atmospheric column. You take some of the heat of the day and inhibit the heating of the atmosphere, and then later release it to the Martian skies which should be quite cold. This possibly lowers the altitude of the exosphere of Mars, where it may be most likely to be lost to space, and puts it into a greater gravitational field than it otherwise would be in. It also reduces the amount of reflection and surface emissions that may help to excite the daytime exosphere molecules. So, along with artificial magnetic fields, it may help to cut down atmospheric losses from Mars.

So then clean off the ice surface, lay down some poly film as a vapor barrier, and weight that down with a sequence of brick and tile heat exchanger fins. So then even though your power output at night will be relatively meager, there will be some. And the combination of poly film weighted down by this "Brickwork" heat exchanger, will further serve to keep the ice under the poly, stable per pressure and serving to inhibit above thermal excursions, and also it serves as a vapor barrier.

Ice is generally a relatively good electrical and thermal insulator. This may serve well to get electricity through the ~100 feet of ice down to the water, while reducing the possibility of short circuits, and galvanic deterioration of metals. Corrosion.

So, putting in lighting fixtures that shine into the water, such as containing LED's may be made more practical. If you have particularly clear ice as part of the "Lens" of the lighting fixture, perhaps you could even have some ice layer between the fixtures "Window Lens", and the liquid water. But I expect that it should be possible with invention and good practices, to simply have a lens of some king directly touching the water.

If Copper and Aluminum are in short supply, I have the notion of simply using steel pipes as the electrical conductors, as they can also double to move fluids, (Liquid or Gas), to and from the water to the surface. Yes there would be some line loss, but it might not be a deal killer.

And of course these electrical inputs through the ice could feed other things, like air filled greenhouse chambers, and Plasma reformers, and also whatever equipment makes sense to have there. And of course then good chances to capture waste heat to the water, to melt more ice, or to be radiated off later into the night skies, to generate electrical power. This one may be very important for dealing with global dust storms and winters.

I think that is plenty for now.

But just because I described the above, it does not forbid the making of nice parks in "Domes" on the topside, and other practices that might be desired.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-07-24 10:08:12)

Void · 2020-08-03 10:57:53

OK, this is supportive I what I already suspected:
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-early-mar … ivers.html
Quote(s):

Early Mars was covered in ice sheets, not flowing rivers: study

A large number of the valley networks scarring Mars's surface were carved by water melting beneath glacial ice, not by free-flowing rivers as previously thought, according to new UBC research published today in Nature Geoscience. The findings effectively throw cold water on the dominant "warm and wet ancient Mars" hypothesis, which postulates that rivers, rainfall and oceans once existed on the red planet.

To reach this conclusion, lead author Anna Grau Galofre, former Ph.D. student in the department of earth, ocean and atmospheric sciences, developed and used new techniques to examine thousands of Martian valleys. She and her co-authors also compared the Martian valleys to the subglacial channels in the Canadian Arctic Archipelago and uncovered striking similarities.
"For the last 40 years, since Mars's valleys were first discovered, the assumption was that rivers once flowed on Mars, eroding and originating all of these valleys," says Grau Galofre. "But there are hundreds of valleys on Mars, and they look very different from each other. If you look at Earth from a satellite you see a lot of valleys: some of them made by rivers, some made by glaciers, some made by other processes, and each type has a distinctive shape. Mars is similar, in that valleys look very different from each other, suggesting that many processes were at play to carve them."
The similarity between many Martian valleys and the subglacial channels on Devon Island in the Canadian Arctic motivated the authors to conduct their comparative study. "Devon Island is one of the best analogues we have for Mars here on Earth—it is a cold, dry, polar desert, and the glaciation is largely cold-based," says co-author Gordon Osinski, professor in Western University's department of earth sciences and Institute for Earth and Space Exploration.
Collage showing Mars's Maumee valleys (top half) superimposed with channels on Devon Island in Nunavut (bottom half). The shape of the channels, as well as the overall network, appears almost identical. Credit: Anna Grau Galofre
In total, the researchers analyzed more than 10,000 Martian valleys, using a novel algorithm to infer their underlying erosion processes. "These results are the first evidence for extensive subglacial erosion driven by channelized meltwater drainage beneath an ancient ice sheet on Mars," says co-author Mark Jellinek, professor in UBC's department of earth, ocean and atmospheric sciences. "The findings demonstrate that only a fraction of valley networks match patterns typical of surface water erosion, which is in marked contrast to the conventional view. Using the geomorphology of Mars' surface to rigorously reconstruct the character and evolution of the planet in a statistically meaningful way is, frankly, revolutionary."

Grau Galofre's theory also helps explain how the valleys would have formed 3.8 billion years ago on a planet that is further away from the sun than Earth, during a time when the sun was less intense. "Climate modelling predicts that Mars' ancient climate was much cooler during the time of valley network formation," says Grau Galofre, currently a SESE Exploration Post-doctoral Fellow at Arizona State University. "We tried to put everything together and bring up a hypothesis that hadn't really been considered: that channels and valleys networks can form under ice sheets, as part of the drainage system that forms naturally under an ice sheet when there's water accumulated at the base."
These environments would also support better survival conditions for possible ancient life on Mars. A sheet of ice would lend more protection and stability of underlying water, as well as providing shelter from solar radiation in the absence of a magnetic field—something Mars once had, but which disappeared billions of years ago.
While Grau Galofre's research was focused on Mars, the analytical tools she developed for this work can be applied to uncover more about the early history of our own planet. Jellinek says he intends to use these new algorithms to analyze and explore erosion features left over from very early Earth history.
"Currently we can reconstruct rigorously the history of global glaciation on Earth going back about a million to five million years," says Jellinek. "Anna's work will enable us to explore the advance and retreat of ice sheets back to at least 35 million years ago—to the beginnings of Antarctica, or earlier—back in time well before the age of our oldest ice cores. These are very elegant analytical tools."
Explore further

OK, I understand that there are rocks discovered by our probes, that indicate formation in warm water. That could be explained by a very early higher pressure environment, when Mars was geothermally more active. Also periods that might follow special events, such as massive eruptions, or a comet impact of the correct nature.

However, I also suggest that the Mars they describe would have been very favorable for ice covered bodies of water, with accumulations of salts, where they become natural solar ponds. So the bottom water could be rather warm.

Mars, I have read is just on the border between being very dry, and being very wet. Of course we have dry now.

As I see it, just bringing up the pressure to double of what it is now, could bring the wet nature back. Snows and temporary melt streams would be possible, and so then with manipulations, ice covered bodies of water.

-------
Spacenut started a new topic recently, and this has caused me to see that it is plausible, with relatively light structure domes over the ice slabs, at higher latitudes.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9581

SeaDragon provided this recently, which encourages me. (Post #167):
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8116&p=7

louis,
Casey Handmer is amazing but I'd like to add a technical fix to that fluorine access problem for ETFE.
The call for ETFE is based on the impression that UV damage would destroy other types of plastic which is not necessarily true - it's mostly the production of oxygen based free radicals that causes the issue (for quick reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UV_degradation ). If you can stop oxygen from inside diffusing into the plastic then UV degradation is greatly reduced and the inclusion of hindered amine light stabilisers (HALS) as copolymers, even making up as little as 0.25% of the total plastic, this can be greatly reduced yet further.
So:
- With a thin layer of something like poly(ethyl vinyl alcohol), usually written EVOH, the majority of oxygen transmission into a plastic habitat skin can be stopped
- A small amount of HALS copolymers stops initial free radical compounds made just after UV absorption in the plastic from propagating and leads to spectacular decreases in corrosion rates before any oxygen that does get through can make things worse.
With these fixes we can just use PET or a similarly cheap and easily produced plastic with no crazy elements like fluorine needed at all.
If we reinforce with basalt fibre (very nearly as good as Keflar but far far cheaper than Keflar) instead of Keflar or equivalent we'd be able to build this sort of thing at an industrial scale using only the resources we have on hand + a few low mass imported extras like HALS copolymers, accounting for perhaps 400 tonnes of plastic per 1 tonne of HALS or something.

While Glass may also be a good thing per Robert's studies on this site, this plastic also encourages me.

Return to the Mammoth Steppe:

The grasses in the Mammoth Steppe remnent, may be able to grow on top of ice slabs, that have "Dome" coverings. If done correctly they may also provide solar energy by a number of methods.
The first being obvious, as a greenhouse, accumulating heat. Also it may be possible to add solar capabilities to the "Glaze", which at this time is an emerging thing.
One way to argument the thermal solar utility, is to compress mildly warm air inside of the greenhouse into warmer air and to store that someplace, perhaps in an under ice sea.
A member has previously mentioned an experiment where Spinach, could grow OK down to 70 mBar. So, the protected Mammoth Steppe, would need that at most I would think. However, I think those grasses are likely to do fairly well at lower temperatures, so perhaps that 70 mBar requirement is not mandatory. Maybe it could be dropped a bit. I have presumed that at the point of starting this agricultural method, the air pressures would have been moved up to >18 mBar for the Northern Plains, and >25 mBar for the bottom of Hellas.
I am thinking of these structures as being more like a tent anchored in the ice, with spikes, perhaps, with only permafrost as the floor. The weight of the domes would allow some pressurization, and the spikes as well, but weights of bricks perhaps could also weigh down the perimeter of the structures.
I am hoping that the grasses within will tolerate a maximum of ~50 degF / 10 degC. They, by nature, should be tolerant of some frost.
For the soil upon the ice slab, we might prefer that the soil only melt to a shallow depth over the summer, but perhaps deeper can be tolerated. You would just have to extend the "Tent's" bottom perimeter that much deeper into the seasonal permafrost.
I would think that these greenhouses should cover a significant area, as I want to have a water passage up into each one. This would be a thermally insulated tube filled with water in the summer, most of the way up. It would be a passage for utility lines of various sorts, to integrate the greenhouse into the "Sea" below the ice slab. It should have a lift as well, which could bring machines and even people up and down.
I have always wanted to have some low pressure facility where "Weeds" could be grown. This would be better, as these grasses would actually be crops. While wild, it is conceivable that genetic engineering might make them more domesticated, by adapting features from our existing grains on Earth. Harvesting and other activities would most likely be by robot.
However, it would not be wrong to have a cupala for people to sit in and gaze out of the glass at this scenery. How that would be connected is optional. Perhaps it could even hoist up through the water passage I already mentioned, and if a leak developed in the pressurization of it, perhaps the hoist could lower it down in the water fast enough to save the people.

Done

(th), thanks for your advice on my computer problem. It did help. But I composed most of this post without being logged on to NewMars, and was able to quickly get reference materials. This is what I will need to do in the future apparently.

However if I linger on this site for any amount of time my computer gets bogged down, and sometimes I cannot even save materials properly but have to clean my systems, and reboot. So, I say, "Pretty Fishy". I have other ideas I will begin to include to protect myself.

Thanks

Last edited by Void (2020-08-03 12:20:13)

Void · 2020-08-12 12:18:18

I have had my eyes on this item for the last few days, for Mars. Clear wood.
https://phys.org/news/2019-11-transpare … uture.html
I think it will be hard to have actually wood on Mars, other than perhaps bamboo, which I am not sure would be what is wanted. But I am thinking of something like wood simulant, pressed particle board???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpare … 0in%201992.
Some of the features of actual wood may not be present, such as waveguide for light, unless somehow 3D printing could arrange for that.
While this could be used for many things on Mars, I am particularly fond of thinking of it for two particular instances.
1) Covering for ice covered Seas/Lakes.
2) Very large cylinders on the surface, very long tubes, I hope could be 3D printed. The end caps might be the same or different. These pressurized items might indeed be large enough to grow crops like bamboo??? Portals in the bottoms could link to other subsurface/sub ice pressurized spaces.
I will do an individual post for #1 and #2.
Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-08-18 12:50:09)

Void · 2020-08-14 11:19:36

Bricks, love um....

I believe I have a good engineering plan for Mars now. I have been watching other peoples posts here and of course I spend some time every day at www.phys.org.
As I am able to, I will add a progression of posts here. This may seem unrelated to ice covered seas, but you will see that it can be linked to them.
Here is the first instruction in the series:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=fo … &FORM=VIRE
Be sure to keep your slippers on.
To continue......

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