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#26 2020-02-06 10:00:55

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

For Calliban re #25 and undisciplined thought in general

The articles you cited are published by a full-blown conspiracy theorist.  Your citation of this material will do significant damage to the "Calliban" brand you are building here, if you do not revise your post to reflect the questionable nature of the source.

You made a statement that is "almost certainly" unsupportable at present.

I will (however) follow up by notifying relevant local authorities of this conspiracy theory, so they can (hopefully) harness the resources to address it.

As far as I know, the actual origin of the new virus has not been identified by anyone outside of China.

(th)

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#27 2020-02-06 10:11:22

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Contact form input to National Institute of Health:

A web site I frequent includes a member who just published a link to a conspiracy theory I want to bring to your attention, in hopes you will act swiftly and decisively to combat it at the highest possible levels of the US government.

The conspiracy theory is promoting the idea that China developed the new corona virus as a weapon.  The evidence cited is flimsy as you would expect, but unfortunately it is likely to spread rapidly on the Internet.

The only "fact" that seems pertinent at all is that apparently China has a biological research facility in or near the city where the virus broke out. 

if the person who reads this is a first line contact worker, as seems most likely, please forward the report to superiors.

Thanks!
tahanson43206

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#28 2020-02-06 10:32:29

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Tahanson you do make me laugh :-)  You don't exactly come across as being 'open' to things that challenge your worldview.  Perhaps I was a bit too zealous in my assertion that it was 'almost certain'.  The problem is, I think that it is 'almost certain'.  Is it still a conspiracy theory if its true?

Here is more information on the 'conspiracy theory' as you call it.

https://www.theburningplatform.com/2020 … ponize-it/

We can never be absolutely sure of anything we read of course.  And the title is framed as a question.  But consider the facts.  A Chinese scientist apparently stole a sample of corona virus from a Canadian bioresearch lab in 2017.  I quote:

'Dr. Xiangguo Qiu made at least five trips over the school year 2017-18 to the above mentioned Wuhan National Biosafety Laboratory of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, which was certified for BSL4 in January 2017. Moreover, in August 2017, the National Health Commission of China approved research activities involving Ebola, Nipah, and Crimean-Congo hemorrhagic fever viruses at the Wuhan facility.'

It could be a coincidence that the coronavirus outbreak originated very close to a bioresearch lab that happened to be working on it, having stolen it from Canada.  But the odds are tall, I think.

Consider the other facts about this virus that make it the perfect bioweapon.  It is far more contagious than flu.  It is highly lethal, with conflicting reports about death rate, but comparable to SARS at around 10%.  It has a very long asymptomatic latency period of 11 days, during which any carrier is infectious.  There is also the difficult to explain fact that it contains genetic inserts from the HIV virus.  It is difficult to explain how these inserts could have been present naturally.

You form your own opinion of course.  Or are you going to 'tell on me'? :-)

Last edited by Calliban (2020-02-06 11:01:15)


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#29 2020-02-06 12:12:49

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

For Calliban re 28 and previous report on Chinese biological research facility ..

After questioning your original source, and your "certainty" about the origin of the virus, I asked Google.  It turns out that Google has been getting a LOT of questions along that line, because the suggested search string I wanted to use was high in the history stack.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 … ed-chines/

The deadly animal virus epidemic spreading globally may have originated in a Wuhan laboratory linked to China’s covert biological weapons program, according to an Israeli biological warfare expert.

Radio Free Asia this week rebroadcast a local Wuhan television report from 2015 showing China’s most advanced virus research laboratory known the Wuhan Institute of Virology, Radio Free Asia reported.

The laboratory is the only declared site in China capable of working with deadly viruses.

The report quoted above provides the original source for the conspiracy theory, and it shows that the theory has indeed been spreading rapidly.

I would point out that the key word in the report above is "may"

That is a much better term for the present state of knowledge about the origin of the virus.

I am NOT questioning that the virus COULD have come from the cited facility.  What I am questioning is the assignment of blame without supporting facts.

All the points you've presented here are supportive of the theory, but they are NOT in themselves sufficient to arrive at the level of certainty your earlier post suggested was appropriate.

If the theory originating with the Israeli is correct, I am (reasonably) confident persons with the needed education, experience and analytical skills will be able to establish the probability, in the absence of confirmation by the Chinese government.

The reason I am concerned about this is that the risks of mental contamination of the human population are far greater than the risks of biological contamination.

The day after the virus was announced in the context of China, I witnessed a panic reaction by an ordinary American who was suddenly afraid to visit a Chinese restaurant.  There was (and remains) no reason for anyone to avoid a Chinese restaurant in the United States, but the mental contamination revealed in this incident can easily lead to seriously depressed sales by restaurants across the country, for no good reason.

Edit: If it can be established that the Chinese Government ** was ** responsible for the virus, then it would follow that they would be liable for the deaths, and for the financial losses of millions if not billions of people across the world who may be impacted.

Edit#2: The following was submitted to the web site of a US Senator.

A rumor is running riot on the Internet that China created the Novel Coronavirus in a weapons lab located near the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated.

Please use whatever powers are available to you (I understand the limits) to try to find out the truth, and arrange for it to be published to the entire world as soon as possible.

Secondarily but (perhaps) just as importantly, this is a global opportunity to make a nation state responsible for its actions, by requiring that China (if it is guilty) must pay for death and financial losses by US Citizens and US commercial interests.

Thanks !!

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-02-06 12:49:43)

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#30 2020-02-06 14:16:42

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

It is unlikely that the Chinese would ever accept responsibility for the plague, assuming that they are the ones that created it.  It is unlikely that we will ever know for certain.  With 2/3rd of the Chinese economy shut down, they are also unlikely to be in a position to pay.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ … dont-worry

With the global economy already drowning in debt and advanced economies suffering declining prosperity, the virus could be the tipping point for another great depression.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#31 2020-02-06 17:10:52

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,097

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

The chinese would never admit that the military was in anyway connected. As for lab proticol acidents can happen when we start to play god in the name of science. Were we may be tinkering with how to vacinate against it to finding ways that cause it to be less contagious. The way to good intentions can be littered with just as many efforts to do harm. The fact that a virus hospital is springing up mean that china is doing what it needs to do to keep its peoples faith in there nations way of life.

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#32 2020-02-07 05:26:44

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Nature is a far more capable opponent than mere humans. 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pangolin-ide … 51204.html

The endangered pangolin may be the link that facilitated the spread of the novel coronavirus across China, Chinese scientists said Friday.

At least 31,000 people have been infected and 630 killed by the virus, which has spread to two dozen countries.

Researchers at the South China Agricultural University have identified the scaly mammal as a "potential intermediate host," the university said in a statement, without providing further details.

The new virus, which emerged at a live animal market in central China's Wuhan city late last year, is believed to have originated in bats, but researchers have suggested there could have been an "intermediate host" in the transmission to humans.

After testing more than 1,000 samples from wild animals, scientists from the university found the genome sequences of viruses found on pangolins to be 99 percent identical to those on coronavirus patients, the official Xinhua news agency reported Friday.

(th)

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#33 2020-02-07 16:50:31

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,097

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

It is my understanding that the virus was first identified in the 60's with 4 variants of the disease.
So of which are capable of jumping from mammal to mammal, mammal to retile, retile to reptile with this one capable of crossing to all..

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#34 2020-02-08 09:46:58

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,097

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

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#35 2020-02-08 12:32:04

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

White House Asks Scientists To Investigate Whether 2019-nCoV Was Bio-Engineered.

https://www.zerohedge.com/health/white- … engineered

The virus might be bio bioengineered?  Darn, I didn't see that coming!


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#36 2020-02-08 15:30:43

Terraformer
Member
From: Logres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,362
Website

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Well, we know that there have been bioengineered viruses in the past, since a laboratory hybridised bird flu and swine flu as an experiment. It's not inconceivable that they could have been doing something like that, perhaps hoping to get ahead of any future SARS outbreak, only for lax biosecurity to allow it to  escape into the city.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#37 2020-02-08 16:09:02

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,097

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

The scope of the contagious virus is starting to raise its head in the US with reports getting into the news of testing levels to those hospitalized from the desease. Monitoring of 4 confirmed indications that they are not native americans with dozens tested awaiting results. Offers from the CDC to aid China are still being met with no to entering and gaining knowledge of how to slow and stop its forward march accross the world.

Another indirect Coronavirus_could_close_European_factory_Fiat_Chrysler

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#38 2020-02-09 11:35:19

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Here is an announcement of test kits being prepared for health care facilities in the US ...

It appears that the kit can deliver results within four hours:

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020 … -kits.html

(th)

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#39 2020-02-10 21:04:20

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,097

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Coronavirus live updates: Cruise-ship infections surge as thousands remain quarantined
Japanese Health Ministry says 65 people on board the Diamond Princess have tested positive for the new coronavirus bringing to 135 the number of people who are known to have been infected. Pressure is mounting to test everyone on the ship. There trip is in suck mode and no way out....'Soon we will all be infected': Crew on quarantined Diamond Princess cruise ship pleads for help as coronavirus cases spike
Crew members have not been tested for the coronavirus, Sarkar said. The only people being screened are those whose temperature rises above 99.5 degrees Fahrenheit (37.5 degrees Celsius). It would appear that this is quarantee when you are not sick seems to becoming a death sentence.... Wuhan Evacuees Hunker Down for Weeks in Quarantine
The virus has sickened some 40,000 people, with nearly 30,000 cases just in Hubei province, where Wuhan is located, and killed more than 900. Twelve in the U.S. have been confirmed to have the novel coronavirus, all of them recent travelers to China or their immediate family members. The numbers are still climbing for deaths....

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#40 2020-02-12 17:18:18

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,097

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Coronavirus outbreak infections ease in China but death toll keeps climbing

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/ … d-in-china
Written February 12, 2020 with cases topping 45,000
As of this morning, there are 28,353 confirmed cases of coronavirus infection, with 1,382 recovered and 565 deaths, according to real-time data from Johns Hopkins University.

The ship that some were feeling to be a death trap is finally Cruise ship barred by 4 governments set to dock in Cambodia

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#41 2020-02-13 12:46:46

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

For Terraformer re topic ... here is an announcement of progress toward creating a vaccine ...

The first step reported is recreation of the virus itself from its DNA sequence ...

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/cali … 56925.html

(th)

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#42 2020-02-14 19:34:24

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,097

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Cases are still on the climb but are we close to a cure or are we now in the slow trial phases to find out if it works and is safe to use...
California lab says it discovered coronavirus vaccine in 3 hours

American biotech company says it created a coronavirus vaccine three hours after getting access to the virus' genetic sequence on Jan. 9, and now scientists are racing to get the vaccine on the market in record time. Inovio's vaccine for COVID-19, as health officials have named the virus, could be ready as early as this summer.

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#43 2020-02-15 03:42:26

Terraformer
Member
From: Logres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,362
Website

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Useful for stopping it from becoming endemic.

Not useful for stopping this pandemic.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#44 2020-02-15 07:54:46

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

For Terraformer re #43

Could you expand on your thought a bit?  It is a clever use of words, no doubt, but my impression is it lacks substance.

The whole point of developing a vaccine rapidly is catching people BEFORE they are exposed to the virus, and that would be MOST of the world outside China.

The new vaccine would help with the endemic problem, but that is long AFTER the current crisis.

(th)

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#45 2020-02-15 08:29:07

Terraformer
Member
From: Logres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,362
Website

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

That's my point. A vaccine in a years time doesn't help us in the next few months, by which point it will have done whatever damage it's going to do. It's no use vaccinating people after they've already caught it.

It's still worth pursuing, so we don't end up with another endemic virus. But it's not going to help this current issue.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#46 2020-02-15 08:46:30

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,097

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

If the succes is higher than the risk for lose of life many will take the cure even inspite of possible death as the virus is death in the end.
The panders box is slowed by quarantines and vacination that stops it in its tracks so long as we keep vacinating. Its when claims of birth defects and other such things that keep it from being effective long term.
See other arguement on vacination.
Vaccinate Your Children!

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#47 2020-02-15 18:54:28

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,097

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

The Diamond Princess cruise ship with US people on board are being off loaded to different locations for care for those that have tested positive and for those that can go they will be going to a quarantine location.

Pentagon to extend availability of 4 military bases to help with coronavirus efforts

To curb the chances of spreading from mans best friends Cats are wearing coronavirus masks in China

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#48 2020-02-18 10:04:17

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

For Terraformer re topic ...

This item is from an industry newsletter that normally deals in technology other than health related.  I presume this item was included because it might be of general interest:

Portable lab can diagnose coronavirus on the go

The device could be used for smart point of care testing for chronic and infectious diseases of all kinds. It can even measure stress hormones for anxiety and depression.

I am mildly skeptical of the claims, but since I have found the newsletter to be generally reliable, I am assuming the announcement should not be dismissed out of hand.

(th)

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#49 2020-02-18 18:44:36

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,097

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Testing for it is only step 1 of a multiple plan to limit its spread, gain needed time to save people that still show no signs of deaths door and to hope a vacine can be made in time.

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#50 2020-02-20 19:27:14

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,097

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Those brought home to the US were brought home against the wishes of the cdc.
Coronavirus-infected Americans flown home against CDC’s advice

Those quarantined aboard the Diamond Princess, the luxury liner showed with new tests that 14 passengers were infected with the virus. Japan released 443 people from the ship, saying they had completed their 14-day quarantines but is that really enough with this unknown out break.

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