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#76 2020-09-23 14:09:51

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

Here is another email from Mr. Rau ... he is offering links to web pages that relate to space ...

You may also find the below MineARC articles relating to space interesting.

https://minearc.com/blog/the-future-of-safe-refuge/

https://minearc.com/blog/oxygen-candles … gency-air/ 

Cheers

(th)

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#77 2020-09-23 17:27:59

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,099

Re: California Wildfires

20 hours of breathable air for four people from the burning of the candle producing 2600L of oxygen.
2600 / 80 = 32.5 liter per person

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#78 2020-09-25 19:17:06

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,099

Re: California Wildfires

The state wants to do away with fossil fueled vehicles starting with hybrids followed be all electric vehicles with a grid that has rolling brown outs and sparked wild fires.
For that to work well a solar panel charging station to the vehicle buyer to lesson the draw on the grid.

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#79 2020-10-10 07:09:21

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,099

Re: California Wildfires

kbd512 wrote:

5. Replant more trees to replace those burnt in fires or consumed by industry.

5 The wild fires are an example of not grooming the large areas to control the chances of fires by logging and replanting so as to make it less likely for fires to occur.

kbd512 wrote:

SpaceNut,

The trees are gone now.  That's an objective fact.  So, if you want more trees, then it's time to plant more trees.  Simple logic says that's the correct course of action.  Complaining about the problem or instituting a government program to fix what government screwed up won't get the job done.  Government is not the solution to most problems.  If it was, then most problems would be solved by now.  They are not, and arguably many of our problems have been made worse by government, ergo more government won't solve anything.

You need ownership control to manage the forests... "The federal government through the U.S. Forest Service (USFS), Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and National Park Service owns about 19 million acres of the total 33 million acres of forestlands in the state of California representing about 57% of the forest areas. Private nonindustrial entities own about one‑quarter (8 million acres) acres of forestland. These include families, individuals, conservation and natural resource organizations, and Native American tribes. Industrial owners—primarily timber companies—own 14 percent (4.5 million acres) of forestland. State and local governments own about a 3 percent (1 million acres) combined. In total these non-federal entities represent about 43% of the states forest areas."

California, U.S. Forest Service Establish Shared Long-Term Strategy to Manage Forests and Rangelands

So state and federal government agencies are to blame and are the parties that need to manage the forests.....

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#80 2020-10-10 07:29:22

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,099

Re: California Wildfires

So lets delve into how much each has land what each is responsible by law to do.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/

https://www.forestunlimited.org/resourc … tatistics/

There are 33 million acres of forest(ed) lands in California.

Federal ownership is 19 million acres = 57%

State and local agencies (including land trusts) own 3%

Privately owned forest lands are 13.3 million acres = 40%
1. Industrial private owners are 4.7 million acres = 14%
2. Non-industrial privately owned forest lands are 9 million acres = 26%
Approx. 80% of wood product produced in California comes from private lands

https://www.library.ucdavis.edu/news/na … pt-7-2018/

ca-map.gif
https://www.fs.fed.us/sopa/state-level.php?ca

https://www.latimes.com/wildfires-map/

https://www.politico.com/news/agenda/20 … and-415431

https://ucanr.edu/sites/fire/Safety/Current/

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#81 2020-10-10 09:03:50

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut re topic ...

First of all .... the natural order of the Universe calls for forests to burn periodically.

Trees and plants have evolved to refresh their growing environment by clearing the undergrowth.

Humans have upset the natural order in this, as they have so many things.

Second, Nature delivers ocean water randomly throughout the planet, using NOTHING but Solar Power to accomplish it.

If humans are determined to interfere with the natural order, they had better be prepared to replace the services in which they have interfered.

The forests need fresh water to maintain good health, and if humans want to enjoy the benefits of forests in future, they would do well to think about replacing the random distribution of fresh water with a managed flow. 

Assuming they don't kill themselves off, humans on Earth are (presumably) headed toward being a Type I civilization.

That means they (we, hopefully) will be able to manage the flow of fresh water from the oceans to where it is needed on land, under ** direction ** and NOT at random, as is the case today.

Kardashev scale - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Kardashev_scale
The scale has three designated categories: A Type I civilization, also called a planetary civilization—can use and store all of the energy available on its planet. A Type II civilization, also called a stellar civilization—can use and control energy at the scale of its planetary system.
Dyson sphere · Nikolai Kardashev · Star lifting · Album

We have members of this forum who demonstrate the ability to think on a grand scale, and we have other members who demonstrate the ability to think on a very small scale.  There is room in the forum for both extremes, and for everyone in the middle.

I would like to invite forum readers to start thinking about what it would take to capture water molecules after they are liberated from the ocean and before they are wafted away in winds to take up residence in clouds, and from there to wander aimlessly over the planet until they descend at some random location.

(th)

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#82 2020-10-10 10:14:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,099

Re: California Wildfires

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#83 2020-10-10 15:03:15

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut re #84

Thanks for a nice follow up!    The challenge for humans is to expand that concept to provide fresh water where it is needed anywhere on Earth, using nothing but solar power.  Nature provides that service, but the service is uneven.  Some areas receive no fresh water at all, and other areas receive too much.

(th)

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#84 2020-10-10 15:20:33

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,099

Re: California Wildfires

One is issue is the controlling of the excess that falls and moving it not to the sea but inland to holding reservoirs for pumping to other locals. That means changing the road side system that funnels that water to streams as well as getting those areas seeing flooding the adequate pumping units to move the water to other locations.

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#85 2020-10-10 17:21:47

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut re #86

Your post here is thought provoking!  I'm hoping others will find inspiration to try to imagine how the Kardashevian thinkers of years to come will follow through on the worthy suggestion.  In past decades and centuries, humans have devised storage systems for large quantities of water, and (in fact) large dams are under construction in the Middle East and in China.

However, those measures are ** still ** AFTER the fact ... they are dealing with the random distribution of water we get as Nature's default.  That water is totally free, but it comes in random amounts at random times.

The place to address fresh water supplies (in my opinion) is at the source ....

Your wording caught my eye .... you've hinted at capturing fresh water as it falls on the ocean. Fresh water dumped on the ocean contributes absolutely nothing to the needs of the creatures on land.  It doesn't even benefit sea creatures.   It is a total waste of perfectly good solar energy.

(th)

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#86 2021-06-20 11:32:06

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,099

Re: California Wildfires

It seems that the continuing heat wave and draught have started to spawn fires in many western states

https://www.fireweatheravalanche.org/fire/state/

map of US indicates 1256 fires currently

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#87 2021-07-02 19:12:39

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,099

Re: California Wildfires

The season for the burning of the US forest has started early...
b270f64424fbcbeb2edc2e7c31c64866

https://www.latimes.com/wildfires-map/

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#88 2021-07-03 10:50:42

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,615

Re: California Wildfires

SpaceNut,

Humans can either manage the forest or the forest will manage the humans.  Beyond that, we can see how running power lines through the forest without trimming the trees back a little wasn't the brightest idea.

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#89 2021-07-03 11:52:12

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,099

Re: California Wildfires

ya it means no power when those trees are felled by the powerful storms that roll through....

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#90 2021-07-03 12:46:45

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 6,743
Website

Re: California Wildfires

If you live in a forest, expect fires. Why do people build houses that can burn down? In areas prone to forest fire, houses should be built as concrete. There's a construction technique developed several years ago now: Insulating Concrete Forms (ICF). That's styrofoam blocks that can be assembled by hand, with a gap for cement to be poured to form the concrete wall. The styrofoam is not removed when the concrete sets, it stays in place as wall insulation. The two sides of the form are held together by galvanized steel sheet metal, which remains as part of the wall. Steel rebar for the concrete can snap into the ICF sheet metal.

I suggest silicone resin instead of styrofoam; that's similar to silicone rubber but more firm. It's not as firm a styrofoam, but silicone is non-flammable. Silicone can be reinforced with fibreglass fibres.

For siding, you could use stucco, or brick, or field stone, or limestone; the theme here is non-flammable, don't use wooden clapboards or vinyl siding. There's also fibre cement siding and stone veneer siding, but ensure it's actual stone, not some polymer shaped to look like stone. Polymer is flammable, stone is not. For roofing you could use steel, clay or concrete tiles, or slate, but don't use asphalt shingles. And certainly don't use wooden shakes or shingles, and don't use rubber or plastic polymer roofing. Again, use non-flammable material; asphalt burns so could catch fire when embers from the forest fire land on your roof. Use aluminum gutters, not plastic. Aluminum framed windows, not wood or vinyl. With aluminum, you can purchase anodized aluminum, which has the colour applied in such a way that you won't have to paint... well, ever. Use steel exterior door with steel exterior door frame. Steel can also be anodized, so you never have to paint the exterior of your house. Also, anodized coating is non-flammable, oil or latex paint is flammable. Paint on steel won't cause much damage, but it's one more thing you don't have to repair after the fire.

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#91 2021-07-03 13:05:40

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For RobertDyck re #92

As a follow up to your excellent advice in this post (and many others) ....

Last night's video news featured a visit with a community that was burned out in California last year ... In total astonishment, the resident conducting the tour showed the camera crew that the replacement housing was being made entirely of wood .... I'm guessing this was a FEMA funded reconstruction, but that's just a guess and it could be wrong ... ** someone ** is responsible for building all-wooden housing in a fire zone.

I wish the film crew had had the support they would have needed to follow up, but perhaps the news organization will fund a follow up ....

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-07-03 13:05:59)

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#92 2021-07-03 13:42:19

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 6,743
Website

Re: California Wildfires

With ICF construction, you can support the floors, ceiling and roof entirely from exterior walls. That means only exterior concrete walls are weight bearing. That allows galvanized steel wall studs for interior walls. Office buildings use these walls studs, they're available at any home improvement store, or anywhere else you buy construction material. They cost the same price as wooden wall studs. But they're non-flammable. roll

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#93 2021-07-03 14:25:12

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 6,743
Website

Re: California Wildfires

I just sent an email to the Office of the State Fire Marshal, for California. They set building standards. We'll see if it gets anywhere.

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#94 2021-07-03 14:35:22

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For RobertDyck re #85

With an organization of that caliber, I expect you'll get a reply.

They may well be burdened by thousands of communications, so the reply may be a form letter of some kind.

On the ** other ** hand, they might not be the first organization that folks think of when trying to offer suggestions.

In any case, your suggestion will (** should **) get a fair hearing in this setting.

(th)

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#95 2021-07-03 14:57:56

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,099

Re: California Wildfires

The building codes changed in the flood zones to create structures on stilts. So fire prone areas should do the same.

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#96 2021-07-06 04:35:11

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 885

Re: California Wildfires

Heatwave in Canada and the North Pole

Canada heatwave: Military called in to help battle wildfires
https://www.yahoo.com/news/canada-heatw … 11865.html

Record breaking temperatures recorded in Arctic Russia
https://www.rcinet.ca/eye-on-the-arctic … ic-russia/

Wildfires bring train service to and from Canada’s Port of Vancouver to a stop
https://splash247.com/wildfires-bring-t … to-a-stop/

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#97 2021-07-06 06:13:43

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut re #97

Your idea of putting houses on stilts in firezones is interesting.

Such buildings still need to be made of non-combustible materials, as RobertDyck suggested recently.

I suspect the temperature of the atmosphere in the vicinity of fires is on the order of 800 C (1,472 F)

An average surface fire on the forest floor might have flames reaching 1 meter in height and can reach temperatures of 800°C (1,472° F) or more. Under extreme conditions a fire can give off 10,000 kilowatts or more per meter of fire front.

Winds feeding a fire would be cooler, but after the fire passes a given home, I would expect the atmosphere temperature to be on the order of 800 C for an extended period.  The home needs to be able to withstand such temperatures for an extended period, on stilts on otherwise.

I would think that digging well into the mountain side or valley floor would provide some protection, but anything above ground should either be non-combustible or easily replaced.  We've discussed an underground bunker concept in this forum before.  A supply of oxygen and fresh water is needed for those taking shelter, and power needs to be available in sufficient quantity to pump heat into the ground for hours.

(th)

For Mars_B4_Moon ... thanks for picking up that item about Vancouver ... I watch the ocean from an IT site in Vancouver every day....

katkam.ca

The view is toward the West, so any fires to the East are not visible.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-07-06 06:18:30)

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#98 2021-07-06 16:21:32

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,615

Re: California Wildfires

Robert,

That sounds like good advice for building in fire-prone areas.  Fire resistant materials cost a little more upfront, but it's guaranteed to be cheaper than completely rebuilding the house from the foundation up.  There's that whole "burning alive in your own home" issue to consider as well.  Becoming a human version of a charcoal briquette doesn't appeal to me.  Zero cosmetic maintenance should also be appealing.

I don't think anodizing of steel is practical, as it will flake off, but a nitriding process can leave a natural metal finish on all types of steel and cast iron.  I would think a light gray Portland cement mixture combined with stainless steel or nitrided mild steel would reflect summer heat and be highly preferable to living in a matchbox in the middle of the woods.

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#99 2021-07-07 06:14:52

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut ... this article could go into more than one topic ...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/climate-cris … 30529.html

How bad will it get? I don’t know because I don’t know how long our politicians will dither before finally dealing with the climate crisis. I don’t know because there are natural factors that could slightly slow or, more likely, massively speed up, the rate of change, causing cascading and accelerating disasters faster than we can adapt. But we know enough now to invest in reducing the emissions of climate-changing gases and to begin to adapt to those impacts we can no longer avoid. These changes are coming and the costs, especially to those left behind, will be beyond anything our disaster management systems have had to deal with in the past.

Peter Gleick is co-founder of the Pacific Institute, a hydrologist and climatologist, and a member of the US National Academy of Sciences. He lives about 30 meters above sea level, but only 900 meters away from an extremely dangerous earthquake fault

This article/essay appears (as I read it) to be fairly balanced in it's attempt to foresee the future.

The line about certain changes "baked in" is sobering (to me for sure).

(th)

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#100 2021-07-07 19:32:38

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,099

Re: California Wildfires

Some believe that the sea's will rise quickly but all said and done we have seen them higher in the past as well as much lower so its a timed event that we can not judge the scale of up or down progress with any certainty.

We do know that unless we change something that we will be in for a much harder time in the future as the temperature does rise.

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