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#51 2020-09-16 03:28:02

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Re: California Wildfires

You ain't exactly a people person are you Clark? :-)

Last edited by Calliban (2020-09-16 03:28:49)


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#52 2020-09-16 07:17:18

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut re recent visit by a member in a bad mood ...

Do you have a policy regarding disruptive content?

It seems to me that it should be obvious that this forum is open to the entire world, and to every age group.

Recent content posted to several topics is (in my opinion) incompatible with the open-to-all nature of this forum.

(th)

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#53 2020-09-16 12:36:00

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Re: California Wildfires

Tahanson, I would be wary of speech censorship based on what you perceive the political direction of this board to be.  The US is quite unique in having a constitution that protects freedom of expression.  The country I come from has nothing like it, you can literally be jailed for saying something that offends someone.  Freedom is something you don't appreciate until you no longer have it.

None the less, I would agree that Clark is rude; his comments appear irrelevant to the discussion and appear to indicate emotional problems.  It is up to Spacenut what he does about that.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#54 2020-09-16 14:02:43

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,615

Re: California Wildfires

clark,

I gather that you're upset over what some other people choose to do, as I'm sure many others are, but next time please try to express that using a little less vulgarity.

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#55 2020-09-16 17:29:04

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For Calliban re #55

Thanks for your reminder of the importance of maintaining free speech rights.

I'd like to point out that there are potentially persons "out there" in the world who might be interested in making a contribution to this forum, but if the members of the forum are unable or unwilling to uphold some minimal level of "civilization", then a significant part of the population will steer clear.

If this were a private forum, with membership carefully limited, and visibility to the outside world set to zero, then it would seem to me gutter language would be fine if that's what the members want to use.

This is ** NOT ** a private forum, and it is available for viewing to everyone on Earth who has Internet access.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-16 17:29:28)

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#56 2020-09-16 17:41:50

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,096

Re: California Wildfires

Society and law must take a stance to correct when we put others in jeopardy for life and death period.
We can ask the why later, after we have this person in custody so that they can do no more harm to others or property...

The Latest: Downed power lines sparked 13 Oregon fires

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#57 2020-09-18 05:56:55

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut re shelter for fires ...

We left the shelter concept at a fairly high level ...

Today's news feed included details about a couple who died due to a misleading news bulletin.   They had packed their car and were ready to go, but a news bulletin arrived indicating that the fire in their area was 51% contained.   That couple could have used an inexpensive, no frills fire shelter.

What I'm thinking about should be possible for about $1,000 (US) .... It would be underground with a hatch that itself would have insulating capabilities. Under that hatch would be an air gap, and then the hatch to the shelter.  The shelter itself would be equipped with a battery to support LED lights for reading for 24 hours, and a supply of oxygen.  The shelter would NOT be equipped to refurbish the air ... instead, the atmosphere inside the shelter would be periodically vented to the outside as new oxygen is admitted from the canister.

I'd appreciate feedback on whether such a concept seems reasonable.   Simple shelters like that could become standard along the entire West coast of the US, because fires are not going away this century.

Some simple sensing capability would be needed to help the survivors to know when it is safe to open the hatches.

Edit#1: A small supply of bottled water would make sense, along with candy bars or similar long term storable food.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-18 05:58:12)

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#58 2020-09-18 15:44:23

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,096

Re: California Wildfires

A prefabbed concrete room sized would be about as cheap as one might get.

Concrete Safe Rooms & Storm Shelters

WHAT IS THE COST OF INSTALLING A SAFE ROOM?

Costs for safe room construction vary across the United States. The cost for constructing an 8- by 8-foot safe room that can double as a closet, bathroom, or utility room inside a new home ranges from approximately $6,600 to $8,700 (in 2011 dollars), according to FEMA. A larger 14- by 14-foot safe room runs from about $12,000 to $14,300.

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#59 2020-09-18 19:21:17

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,865

Re: California Wildfires

While wildfires have always been a natural part of life on the West Coast,  so we shouldn't seek 100%:eradication, I am surprised that no one seems to be deploying drone technology.  Why can't you have thousands of solar powered "thermometer drones" monitoring ground temperatures backed up by a few hundred fire fighter drones - carrying water or other fire suppressants -  that zero in on starter fires? Imagine 100 fire fighter drones carrying 10 kgs of water each and dropping a ton of  water on the fire target.  And once the target is identified you can call in more heavy duty fire suppressant loads from aircraft.

Last edited by louis (2020-09-18 19:21:57)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#60 2020-09-18 19:30:39

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut re #60

Thank you for this impressive (to me for sure) follow up to the "affordable fire shelter" concept!

An 8 x 8 x 6 foot volume should be enough for a couple and a pet or two for 24 hours.  The use of the space for normal living when there is no emergency makes sense, with the proviso that whatever is in the space needs to be movable when the emergency is at hand.

Insurance policies might help by giving home owners a benefit if they invest in such a room.

Survival would be a benefit in and of itself.

It occurs to me (as  I reread and reread the quote in #60) that the most interesting suggestion is to make the safe room a bathroom. That would solve a pesky problem for the sheltering family.  LED lighting from well maintained batteries would be important, and a supply of oxygen which would NOT be a part of a tornado safe room.

The supply of water would presumably continue without interruption since that service would be under ground, but the power to provide pressure for the service might well be gone.  Planning ahead for ** that ** contingency would seem advisable.

We've covered wall thickness, fire proof doors, electricity for lighting, a supply of water and a way to deal with waste. 

If a community is designed with underground electricity and Internet service, power might continue for some time, but local emergency backup seems appropriate.

Since California and Oregon (and even some Washington communities will be rebuilding, this would be a good time for them to think through how to improve survivability at a community planning level.

(th)

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#61 2020-09-18 19:40:40

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,096

Re: California Wildfires

Waters not a problem when the power is go and city supply no longer runs...

1200px-Hand_pump-en.svg.png
Old fashion well pump...

As for the power we could have a pedal powered generator with permanent magnet design simular to those in the bicycle and quadracycle topics to server for what is needed. A power inverter to create AC for low power application should be possible as well as to keep the batteries charged up.

Oxygen scuba tanks come to mind as they are capable of containing under high pressure air for the small room. Several full tanks might be enough to last it out.

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#62 2020-09-18 20:38:00

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut re #63

Your suggestion of scuba tanks is interesting.  It should be possible to find research on how long a couple could survive in a safe room with a supply of scuba oxygen.

Your suggestion of pumping well water is (to me at least) surprising.  We are talking about mountainous regions of California, Oregon and Washington.  I asked Google for help, and found nothing specific, so while your expectation that water is available to be pumped in those locations seems possible, my guess is that it is unlikely to be safe to drink, even if there is water available.

These are areas where (I am guessing) septic tanks would be the common waste water treatment method.

Planning ahead for a supply of packaged drinking water seems like a safe way to go. 

The bicycle power supply would take up some room in that 8x8x6 space.  Perhaps it could be kept collapsed somehow, until it is needed.

An atmosphere measuring device would seem advisable ... unlike a tornado shelter, which is (normally) only needed for a short time, a fire shelter might be needed for a day or more, depending upon the nature of the fire.  CO2 is going to build up, so some of the atmosphere needs to be vented to make room for fresh oxygen from the tanks.

Perhaps a small CO2 scrubber would be worth considering ...

I asked Google for help and it came up with a substantial list of CO2 scrubbers ...

Alfaintek Carbon Dioxide Scrubbers have as well special charcoal filters that purify the indoor air from dust, smells, particles and VOC. With the Alfaintek Carbon Dioxide Scrubber people do not have to suffer from CO2 high level and poor air quality inside bomb shelters and underground bunkers at all!

Bomb Shelters and Underground Bunkers Carbon Dioxide ...

The units I found in the search results appeared to require electric power.

That could be a concern.

Edit#1: Here is a product (apparently) designed for small bomb shelters ... 

https://minearc.com/blog/airgen-provide … c-shelter/

A single AirGEN provides the capacity to survive in isolation from the outside atmosphere for up to a week without electrical power or indefinitely using any 6-34V DC power supply. With radioactive fallout decaying rapidly, with time, using the AirGEN to isolate the outside atmosphere ensures a better chance of safeguarding shelter occupants until the outside air clears or rescue can be achieved.

The unit has a built-in battery ...

Battery Backup & Charger
Digital
Gas Monitoring
Manual
• Minimum 36-140 hour battery backup system should mains electrical
supply fail (longer durations can be attained with carbon dioxide
scrubbing only, multiple units, and/or by cycling the power).
• UL/CSA or CE listed 12 Volt battery charger
• 90-135 Volt or 185-265V AC with retractable power cord
• LCD battery monitoring display
• Recessed handles for ease of handling
• Mounts directly to AirGEN Scrubber
• Additional height: 254mm (10”)
• Additional weight: 32kgs (70lbs)

Edit#2: The company provides on online pdf with coverage of multiple kinds of applications (bomb shelter, etc etc)

https://minearc.com/wp-content/uploads/ … V4-Web.pdf

Edit#3: I sent an inquiry to the company: https://minearc.com/sent/

Edit#4: Some time ago (when tornadoes had devastated Norman, Oklahoma (in the US), I worked up a design for a 3D Printed dome house.

That house was designed to safely withstand a tornado, but it could withstand a hurricane as well.  With properly designed doors and windows, it could withstand a fire of the severity of those witnessed in the US West coast recently. 

SearchTerm:AnchorDomeHouse

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-19 06:51:24)

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#63 2020-09-19 08:24:05

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,096

Re: California Wildfires

People don't live where there is no source of water...
Groundwater Wells plus all of the other types which can be done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_in_California

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_California

How To Make Well Water Drinkable And Keep It Safe To Drink

There are distance requirements for septic and wells to adhere too.

I worked for a company that made composite tanks for an air pack for use by the fire, bomb squads, hazmat clean up and more which had 2 bottles at 5,000 psi.
wilcox-life-support-systems-patroit-5510.png

https://www.liveabout.com/how-long-does … st-2963212
http://airconsumptionscuba.com/how-long … tank-last/
http://www.divebuddy.com/blog/11216/how … ba-diving/

One of the most common tanks in recreational diving is the aluminum 80, which holds 80 cubic feet of air compressed to 3000 pounds per-square-inch (PSI). Tanks are usually filled at 200 bar/3000 psi (pounds per square inch). Sometimes you may see 300 bar/4350 psi or even more, but this is rare.

Tank air time at surface: 120 mins
Tank air time at 33 feet: 60 mins
Tank air time at 66 feet: 40 mins

Of course more tanks, higher psi pressures, Larger tank bottles and not diving increases the hours to which they can supply.

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#64 2020-09-19 08:47:40

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut re design of shelter from fire storms ....

The subtopic is availability of water

Your statement about water is similar to the statement that people need water to live.    However, it is a stretch to say that people do not live where there is no source of water.   The statement may be modified slightly to "people do not live long where there is no source of water".  People certainly live for extended periods in locations where there is no source of water.  Desert dwellers have been living with widely separated sources of water for thousands of years.

In the community where I live, drawing water from a well is prohibited.  A few communities in outlying areas still draw water from wells, but the trend is to accept municipal water as soon as political and economic circumstances allow.

In any case, if a person has not installed a well before a fire, and confirmed that the water is safe to drink, it would seem (to me at least) prudent to stock a supply of water that can supply the expected needs of the occupants.

***
Thanks for your research of air supply options.

In the pdf file provided by the mining supply company in a recent post, I saw air measuring devices to help to determine fitness of the air in a closed space.

(th)

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#65 2020-09-19 08:50:59

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut .... several years ago (2014) I worked up a 3D Printer design for a house that would be strong enough to withstand a tornado.  The devastating tornadoes in Norman, Oklahoma had just occurred, and I was active with a 3D Printer group at the time.

The design should be able to handle fire storms, as well as hurricanes and floods, in addition to the primary purpose of withstanding tornadoes.

625x465_9895839_2690667_1459336674.jpg

A 3D presentation of the design should be available at the link below:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/SLYXS … 7&li=shops

(th)

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#66 2020-09-20 06:00:52

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut (primarily - input from other forum members is welcome) ...

In thinking about the designs for tornado "safe rooms" inside existing homes and business buildings, I realized that such rooms are NOT going to work as fire shelters.  I do a lot of oven cooking, so i am uncomfortably aware of how rapidly heat from even an oven at modest temperature soaks through the walls of a thick cooking container.

A fire storm shelter is going to ** have ** to be installed underground, with as small exposure to the surface as possible, and with an air gap between the surface opening and the opening to the shelter.

I'd like to invite forum members who may be interested in this design challenge to look for examples of existing designs that may have the capability needed for this use case.

Eons ago, small burrowing animals have figured out how to deal with the problem of annual forest fires.  If humans are to succeed at this, the example from Nature would seem instructive.

(th)

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#67 2020-09-20 06:56:31

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,096

Re: California Wildfires

The 3D work is quite nice tahanson43206 and serves as a good model to build with insitu materials on Mars.
If just the dome is clear and above the ground line this makes for a doable build that takes care of the underground need from radiation and leaves the natural lighting for a greenhouse above in the domed area.
Time to copy your post into a habitat topic....

For a fire on earth if the property is open then an above ground concrete of the design would be huge in comparison to just a temporary use but making the safe room from an over sized bathroom might go well either if its more than a day and nights use.

If its just for Huricane / Tornado use that is just a few hours but if your regular home is destroyed then the shelter becomes not just a temporary use but more permanent.

So the question becomes more complex when looking at the needed uses and for funds to do either.

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#68 2020-09-20 08:15:01

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut re #69

First, thank you for the kind words about the 2014 sturdy home design.  At the time I was working on that, the local 3D group was quite active, and one of the members offered a suggestion for a self-baking ceramic material from which to make the structure.  That person is no longer with us, so I am the only one left to try to carry his idea forward.  I don't recall the details, but the material would be similar to a compound often used in the past, and still used today, to make emergency welds on railroad lines out in the vast spaces between cities.

That material ... stretching now for the word/name ... consisted of a compound including iron particles .... thermite ? .... at any rate, the compound was to be mixed with clay so that, when ignited, the structure would bake itself into a strong ceramic able to withstand earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes or hurricanes, or any combination of those natural forces.

I logged on to post an update regarding design of fire shelters, so I'll add that in a separate post.

(th)

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#69 2020-09-20 08:18:48

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

For SpaceNut re #69

Second, thank you for following up on the challenge of creating a shelter that could survive a prolonged fire, at an intensity that can melt glass.

Here is a company that appears to be offering products that include protection against fire ... I note that the "fire" shelter is ** not ** for people!

https://www.atlassurvivalshelters.com/fire-shelters/

GarNado is the most versatile of all the Nado Series because it’s the one shelter that strategically goes in the most desirable locations that customers have available for installation. The shelter’s primary location is to install under the driveway with the hatch inside the garage door hidden from view. The second primary location that it can be installed is in the backyard with relative ease. GarNado is classified as water tight and will install fine in high water table installations like in Florida.

Fire Shelter
Gun Storage
Wine Cellar
FireNado is a secret underground storage space with a solid steel hatch for individuals to protect their valuables from natural disasters or theives. This shelter is not designed for human use, so it will not include an NBC Air Filtration system or beds.  It comes in five sizes and prices start at only $6,999. You can upgrade to a 2 or 3 hour rated fire hatch at an additional cost to protect the valuables from wildfires.

I'll attempt to contact this company to see if they would be willing to work on an upgrade to their product line that would be capable of surviving a week-long fire event such as we are seeing along the West Coast of America, and such as was seen in Australia not long ago.

(th)

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#70 2020-09-20 08:37:49

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

Copy of message of inquiry to Atlas Survival Shelters (located in Texas, USA)

This message/inquiry comes your way because the NewMars.com/forums (an activity of the Mars Society) is discussing the similarity between the needs of Mars settlers for shelter, and the needs of humans on Earth facing a firestorm such as seen currently along the West Coast of the United States, and not long ago in vast regions of Australia.

Your product line includes a fire shelter for property, showing that your design team have taken a look at that particular problem.  The fire shelter for property is specifically ** not ** authorized for human use.

If someone in your design team were interested in a discussion with members of the NewMars.com/forums, they would be welcome to register (free to all) and pitch in.

On Mars, there are a couple of complications not faced by citizens on Earth, and (of course) there are some complications on Earth that would not be faced by pioneers on Mars.

Never-the-less, I am confident a shelter can be designed to meet both sets of requirements.

Challenges that are shared in common include:

1) Protection from the outside environment (heat/radiation/other)

2) Heat management (shelter must be located in a heat sink)

3) Water, air, food, waste management, communication, entertainment, lighting

There may well be considerations I have not thought of.

(th)

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#71 2020-09-20 10:00:22

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

Here is another company whose focus comes pretty close to what is needed for a fire storm shelter or a Mars habitat.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/custom-sleep … 00157.html

ARI Legacy Sleepers builds custom sleeper cabs for long-haul truckers.

The sleepers offer amenities truckers don't always have access to, like toilets, showers, kitchens, and full-sized beds.

ARI can build in cool features like motorcycle garages, pull-out grills, upscale kitchens, and gaming stations.

While a basic sleeper might run you $55,000, a large, customized build could cost upward of $150,000.

There must be a market for equipment like this ... one customer type I can think of is a husband/wife team able to operate 24 hours at a stretch for extended periods.

(th)

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#72 2020-09-20 10:13:50

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

Tunnels are a time-honored refuge for humans.

The history goes back thousands of years, when natural caves were enlisted as temporary shelter from all manner of calamity.

in subsequent times, tunnels have been created for utilitarian reasons, and then adapted as shelter when necessary.

Tunnels carved into the mountain terrain would seem reasonable as a community shelter for a community of sufficient size to justify the investment.

Tunnels have already been proposed for Mars on numerous occasions, including multiple times in this forum.

I asked FluxBB how many posts contain the word "tunnel" and the result set extended over 500 posts

***
For SpaceNut .... I tried to go back to the beginning of the result set, and found a damaged post ...

Re: Human missions » Problems with Domes » 2002-06-20 04:50:32

(th)

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#73 2020-09-21 07:15:13

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

The forum has three ongoing and very similar discussions underway ...

RobertDyck is thinking (and writing) about the needs for comfortable living for up to 1000 people on a space going vessel which must be able to support that complement for up to two years, if a connection at Mars fails and return to Earth is necessary.

Simultaneously, multiple forum members have thought (and written) about the challenges of supporting life (let alone comfort) on Mars for multiple years.

Now we have an opportunity to think about design of accommodations for persons caught by wildfire who must find a way to live at all, let alone live in comfort, when the outside temperatures are measured in hundreds of degrees, and the atmosphere is not breathable.  Except for pressure, that is a situation reminiscent of Venus.

While the fire survival use case is (hopefully) of shorter duration, ** all ** of the features of the living space needed are closely matched (as far as I can see) to those of the Large Ship and Mars Habitat use cases.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-21 07:17:30)

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#74 2020-09-21 16:17:56

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,096

Re: California Wildfires

Since duration of use and possibility are for the not so low cost for making a structure for these natural disaster it seems to be the real reason that they are not done. Its not until hind sight is used that we wish that we had, had one to make use of.
So a lower cost version seems to be what people are wanting for earth.
This is not the case for mars sheltering's...
I think these sort of structures are another possible business opportunity for Mars Society in look into along with the many others that they are not doing as of yet.

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#75 2020-09-22 18:09:26

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: California Wildfires

This is a follow up to Post #64

I had written to Minearc to ask about their fire shelter product line.  As a reminder, since a reader of this post may not have read the earlier one, the Minearc company specifically ** does NOT ** offer a shelter for human safety.  Their offering in this category is intended to offer some protection to lawn equipment or other non-living valuable items in the event of a fire such as a brush fire.

Today a reply arrived, and I would like to share it with the forum:

James Rau <james.rau@minearc.com>
To: tahanson43206

Tue, Sep 22 at 2:17 PM

<snip>

Thank you for your interest in MineARC. MineARC has built fire shelters previously for industrial customers. Scaling it to an affordable product for the consumer market is much more difficult due to the cost of fire rated materials.

We submitted information to a royal commission following bush fires in Australia around ten years ago where there was a high loss of life (some of the fatalities were from home built fire shelters). If I can find it I will send it across.

Best regards,

James Rau
General Manager

MineARC Systems America

<snip>

Tue, Sep 22 at 7:58 PM

Dear Mr. Rau,

Thank you very much for your helpful reply!

I will report your response to the forum.  While this is a discussion group without decision making capability, we do have a global readership (albeit a small one).   I will forward any inquiry that may come in from a member.

tahanson43206
NewMars.com/forums

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-22 18:10:27)

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