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#101 2021-05-24 11:14:41

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: GPS system for Mars?

For Oldfart1939 re #100

This is the GPS system for Mars topic (I'm reminding myself) ...

A set of ground stations already exist, and they can certainly be extended.

The existing robots are not designed or intended for use as ground stations for navigation, but they certainly show what is possible.

I understand that NASA's space navigation systems are designed to pull data from the landscape and to navigate based upon matching images of the approaching landscape to the stored data in the navigation system.

External inputs would appear not to be needed at all.

That said, those near-AI systems are not run-of-the-mill commercial grade navigation equipment, so you might be able to win a contract to set up ground stations if you were so inclined and had the time and staff to pull it off.

For your Expedition topic, I would like to suggest just hiring someone take care of the details of landing where you want to go, and just not worry about it.

You (as expedition designer) have ** much ** more important things to worry about.

(th)

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#102 2021-05-24 15:50:01

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,221

Re: GPS system for Mars?

Part of getting there safely is the responsibility of the flight planner.

The current ground based assets aren't really that useful. They need to be transponders which can be interrogated by the radar of the landing spacecraft. Sufficiently powerful and fast response times.

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#103 2021-05-24 17:09:51

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: GPS system for Mars?

For Oldfart1939 re #102 and topic in general

Are you in general agreement that a ground based radio/optical navigation system would be helpful to all those planning to land on Mars?

A ground based system could look a lot like the landers already on site, except they would contain transponders and be designed to operate year round.

This is a different business activity from planning an expedition.

It would take the dedication of a single individual several years to concentrate on just this one feature of the Mars landscape.

You can dispose of the responsibility for this by recruiting a person with the appropriate skill set to organize a business around the concept.

Interesting as it may be, navigation for landing is ** not ** the primary responsibility of the expedition designer/leader.

That responsibility rightly belongs to the ship captain, who will most certainly be a SpaceX employee if your opening scenario holds.

(th)

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#104 2021-05-24 18:42:31

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: GPS system for Mars?

One of the things that was a great aid in the landing of persaverence was the Sensors Collect Crucial Data on Mars Landings With Arrival of Perseverance
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/201 … 008391.pdf

another landing feature was terrain recognition
imagesmars202020190701trn-16b.width-1280.gif
Terrain-Relative Navigation is actually two systems working together: the Lander Vision System and the Safe Target Selection system.

https://www-robotics.jpl.nasa.gov/publi … CD2002.pdf

Space x landings are no where near the same and most likely can not aid in avoidance.

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#105 2021-05-25 06:05:16

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: GPS system for Mars?

For SpaceNut ... thank you ** very ** much for showing OF what a modern "intelligent" landing system looks like. There is a video available showing the many months of testing of that system on Earth, so that (if he had time) OF (or anyone) could learn how it works.

I expect that NASA will make that technology available to SpaceX, and the Starships that land on Mars will be using it, in addition to any beacons that may be landed ahead of time.

In the mean time, that "intelligent" landing system will continue to develop, and it will become capable of even more impressive performance.

(th)

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#106 2021-07-14 18:04:01

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: GPS system for Mars?

SpaceNut ... this might be the start of a dedicated topic ...

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/mast … 56894.html

Masten Space Systems to develop a GPS-like network for the moon
Aria Alamalhodaei
Tue, July 13, 2021, 4:48 PM
Masten Space Systems, a startup that’s aiming to send a lander to the moon in 2023, will develop a lunar navigation and positioning system not unlike GPS here on Earth.

Masten’s prototype is being developed as part of a contract awarded through the Air Force Research Laboratory’s AFWERX program. Once deployed, it'll be a first-of-its-kind off-world navigational system.

Up until this point, spacecraft heading to the moon must carry equipment onboard to detect hazards and assist with navigation. To some extent, it makes sense that a shared navigation network has never been established: Humans have only landed on the moon a handful of times, and while there have been many more uncrewed landings, lunar missions still haven’t exactly been a regular occurrence.

(th)

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#107 2021-07-14 18:49:54

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: GPS system for Mars?

The article can be broken into existing topics as well as creating the moons use if you should chose.

Masten Space Systems has been working on rocket flight since the first prize contest for commercial space but also with its follow up contest for a lunar landing which it did not make the dead lines for any of the cash. They did land some contracts to lift off and land at another site location near by from what I remember.
They are a startup that’s aiming to send a lander to the moon in 2023 if they can get there.

I would suspect that the system would also work for mars but would just need more on orbit satellites since mars is larger than the moon.

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