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#501 2021-09-13 18:47:29

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,728

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

Let's see if this post auto-magically synchronizes the post and topic tables.

Edit:

It worked.

Last edited by kbd512 (2021-09-13 18:47:47)

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#502 2021-09-17 17:29:55

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,721

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

Cave dwelling drill into mountain
https://youtu.be/fyfxB_SqWtc

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#503 2021-11-24 14:47:39

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
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Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

A key for the food we bring is a s simple as the labeling and dating to ensure we use what is the oldest first.

8 Pantry Organization DIY Ideas for Every Storage Struggle61731f2b01dda.png

Sure the product will most likely be in a different packaging but for the remaining the content will mean we still need a system to ensure we do eat properly.

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#504 2021-12-23 12:51:37

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
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Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

main-qimg-f1ba0c6204d75a2a4d12d61f604621ea-lq

The image just does go to show that even when all we have are a few resources that man can adapt to a Mars under ground living with near to no issues.
Man's requirements to sustain life are simple
Air, Water, food, shelter and even the smallest amount of power all while salvaging materials from the ship we came in.

Calliban wrote:

If colonists are prepared to live on dried foods, that are rehydrated using Martian water, then an adult consuming enough calories to maintain a stable healthy weight, can survive off of a few hundred grams of food per day.  A single Starship payload of dried food, delivered every 2.5 years, could sustain about 400 people.

Our first colony could therefore be almost completely underground.  We can produce oxygen by electrolysis of water, using the hydrogen liberated to reduce iron oxides to make steel.  We can recycle most water and convert human wastes into feedstock for plastics and fuels.  We don't actually need to start growing stuff for quite some time.  But I imagine that agriculture will begin scaling up from day one.

An actual underground city can be built by pushing Martian regolith over a steel frame that is constructed on flat ground.  The nuclear powered vehicles that Kbd512 introduced in another thread would be perfect for the task of pushing huge volumes of soil, continuously, 24/7/365.  Building in this way would not be practical on Earth, because precipitation and ground water would make the underground space damp and uncomfortable.  Rain would run through the dirt roof.  Water would seep through the piled earth walls.  But Mars has not precipitation and ground water is frozen.  So a simple arrangement of heaping soil over a braced frame is adequate to produce a pressurised space.  It would work even better if the frames could be assembled in a natural depression, as you wouldn't then need huge soil dams at the edges, to keep pressure in.

Such underground spaces need not be dark and cramped.  Supporting columns can be made from thin steel or cast iron, with dampened regolith heaped into them and compressed to provide a concrete like filling.  Columns like this could support a high ceiling, maybe 100m or more off of the ground, especially if the columns are braced against each other.  The roof can be sprayed with plaster made from wet, fine regolith.  After this dries, it can be painted with blue pigment to simulate a sky.  Buildings can be constructed from simple, unfired, mud based brick within the pressurised enclosure.  To introduce light, aluminium plated tubes would pass through the regolith roof.  These would be capped on the inside with thick glass domes, which would transfer pressure load into the regolith overburden.  The top of the tubes would be covered by thin glass, to prevent dust from entering the tube.

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#505 2021-12-25 19:43:33

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

Here is a neat website of many topics
Permaculture and homesteading goofballs
Most folks that come here are interested in our permaculture and homesteading community.
https://permies.com/

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#506 2021-12-25 23:39:06

kbd512
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Posts: 5,728

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

As Calliban stated, simple coloration of the walls and ceiling has a psychological effect on those living within.  Light colors, especially those associated with Earth, will improve the mental health of those being protected by the huge mass of regolith piled on top.  Sometimes the very things that are keeping you alive can seem like a prison without appropriate tweaks to account for humans being human.

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#507 2021-12-26 07:44:04

tahanson43206
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Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

The suggestion of Calliban, to put ceilings 100 meters up in an underground living space, inspired the thought of a ceiling supporting LED lights that produce near Earth normal spectrum.  It is possible that more than one LED would be needed in a configuration that delivers Earth normal "sky" illumination, but the effect would be to provide Earth equivalent illumination in a forest of pillars.

I'm picking up on Calliban's suggestions of tall iron pillars in imagining the interior space as cathedral-like, with sky-equivalent illumination, to provide a psychologically appealing living space.

Earlier in the forum Archive, and again more recently, RobertDyck showed illustrations of proposals for living spaces that might be imagined on Mars. I am remembering in particular the high ceilings that were shown in some of those images.

The ideas of Calliban (100 meter tall ceiling) carry that idea even further than the illustrations of the Mars Homestead study.

Those pillars need not be featureless.  They could easily support vines if a way could be found to deliver water to the vines without causing injury to the pillars.  The pillars could become ivy covered in a Mars year, if a way can be found to enlist the vines to protect the iron of the pillars.  I'm wondering here about a planned excretion by the plants as they set their "hooks/tendrils" into the prepared surface of the pillars.

(th)

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#508 2021-12-26 09:36:25

SpaceNut
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Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

With a large cavern and high ceilings one could lay out the lighting to produce an number of seasonal effects including stars, should we chose to go that far.

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#509 2021-12-26 13:50:12

RobertDyck
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Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

I don't think you need to simulate sky. And Mars won't need illumination equivalent to Earth. Illumination equivalent to Mars during daylight will appear bright because humans adapt.

The following is from the Mars Homestead project, phase 1, the hillside settlement. This is the atrium buried deep within the hill. A 2 story atrium with vaulted ceiling. Outside on the hill a parabolic mirror for each vault tracks the Sun. Light is reflected into a light pipe which directs light to the apex of the vault. A diffuser inside vault spreads out the light. Somewhere a filter blocks UV light. Click image for larger view.
thumb_MHP-4FC-Image029.jpg
Living spaces will need LED lights but the atrium with plants can use sunlight.

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#510 2021-12-26 14:38:17

tahanson43206
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Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

For RobertDyck re 509

You might be right, or you might be wrong.

Customers will decide.

If I were a customer in that situation, and I had a choice between a dim cavern and a brightly lit Earth equivalent cavern to visit, I'd choose the bright one every time, except for those occasions when a dimly lit location is preferable.

There are dark taverns on Earth, and they do quite well, but the grocery stores next door tend to be brightly lit.

There are standards for illumination for reading, and those aren't going to change because readers are on Mars.  They are going to remain exactly the same regardless of where humans may go in the Solar system.

So!  if your dim tavern does well, it will because of your excellent food, quality beverages and friendly staff. 

(th)

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#511 2021-12-26 15:22:59

RobertDyck
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Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

Engineering Toolbox: Illuminance - Recommended Light Level
Outdoor Light Levels
Condition lux
Sunlight 107527
Full Daylight 10752
Overcast Day 1075
Very Dark Day 107
Twilight 10.8
Deep Twilight 1.08
Full Moon 0.108
Quarter Moon 0.0108
Starlight 0.0011
Overcast Night 0.0001

Indoor Light Levels
Activity lux
Public areas with dark surroundings     20 - 50
Simple orientation for short visits     50 - 100
Areas with traffic and corridors - stairways, escalators and travelators - lifts - storage spaces     100
Working areas where visual tasks are only occasionally performed     100 - 150
Warehouses, homes, theaters, archives, loading bays     150
Coffee break room, technical facilities, ball-mill areas, pulp plants, waiting rooms,      200
Easy office work     250
Class rooms     300
Normal office work, PC work, study library, groceries, show rooms, laboratories, check-out areas, kitchens, auditoriums     500
Supermarkets, mechanical workshops, office landscapes     750
Normal drawing work, detailed mechanical workshops, operation theaters     1000
Detailed drawing work, very detailed mechanical works, electronic workshops, testing and adjustments     1500 - 2000
Performance of visual tasks of low contrast  and very small size for prolonged periods of time     2000 - 5000
Performance of very prolonged and exacting visual tasks      5000 - 10000
Performance of very special visual tasks of extremely low contrast and small size     10000 - 20000

If Full Daylight on Mars is 53% that of Earth, then that's still much brighter that indoor on Earth right now. So I think indoor activities will have the same illumination as the same activity on Earth.

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#512 2021-12-26 17:22:57

tahanson43206
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Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

For RobertDyck re post #511

SearchTerm:Illumination standards for
SearchTerm:lighting measurement of for a wide variety of conditions
SearchTerm:LUX technical term used in measurement of lighting

Something to consider is the effect of aging on human beings.  The need for lighting varies by individual, and over the lifetime of an individual.

The answer would seem (to me at least) to simply plan for interior spaces to have adjustable capabilities.

Variables would surely include:

Lighting
Temperature
Air movement
Noise level
Spacing of furniture
Nature of furniture
Type of wall hangings
Nature of wall hangings

There may well be other aspects of interior space management that an architect or interior designer might consider.

(th)

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#513 2021-12-26 19:24:14

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,920

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

There is relatively little cloud cover on Mars.  So it will be sunny most of the time (during day of course).  If Mars surface illumination is about half that of Earth at the equivalent latitude on a sunny day, then light tubes would only need to cover a few percent of the roof area to produce light levels equivalent to an overcast day on Earth in our subterranean environment.  This is sufficient to support plant growth, if we want green spaces in our underground city.

On the topic of high column supports - one of the limitations in this case is buckling instability.  If a load bearing column is 100m high, then it will need a certain minimum width (actually, 2nd moment of area) to avoid buckling.  This can be calculated using the Euler buckling equation.  This doesn't prevent us from building ceilings 100m high.  It just imposes minimum width requirements on columns.

My initial idea was to use steel or cast iron form work to build columns and fill them with compressed Martian regolith.  In this case, most of the compressive strength comes from the regolith.  The iron can be relatively thin and is there to provide a framework for moulding and to prevent surface damage.  We could put buildings inside of hollow columns.  In compressive structures made from brittle materials with little or no tensile strength, it is important to design all elements to avoid tensile or shearing stresses.  Concrete members can only take tensile loads when they contain prestressing tendons.  In this case, tensile forces are carried by the steel not the concrete.  For purely compressive structures, the roof between the columns would need to be a parabola of some kind.  We could build the columns in either square or triangular arrangement, with parabolic roof sections between the columns.  Assuming this can be done, the entire structure can be formed from compressed, damped regolith.  This will be poured into formwork and then tampered to compress it into a brick like ceramic.

This may require more effort than simply pushing untreated regolith into place.  Ideally, we would sieve out any large stones and produce a fine powder prior to pouring the regolith into formwork.  We want the power to be as fine as possible, because the strength of the resulting compressed ceramic will increase as the surface area of grains increases.  Large rocks within the mix present discontinuities that may lead to cracking.  We would keep the separated rocks and mix them with untreated regolith to provide overburden for the whole structure.  Sunlight pipes can be put at the apex of the parabola.

In some ways, the economics of the concept would improve if we could reuse the steel or iron formwork.  Reusing formwork allows us to economise on steel, which is a highly energy intensive material.  But in terms of speed, it works better to simply lift the formwork into place using a crane, weld it together, fill it with regolith and then move on.  The thing this has in its favour, is that attempting to dismantle and reassemble formwork is likely to be labour intensive.  The formwork itself is a repeatable structure that can exploit economies of scale.  The other option is to do away with formwork altogether and lift in place the compressed regolith columns and parabolic roof sections by crane.  But the problem here is weight.  The regolith sections easily weigh hundreds of tonnes each.  The columns could be lifted into place piece by piece as rings.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-26 20:19:08)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#514 2021-12-26 20:13:09

SpaceNut
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Registered: 2004-07-22
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Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

The light from a ceiling arch is meant to fall like this
BeamSpread.jpg

the typical lighting
FootcandleLuxTable2.jpg

of course some like it a little brighter
FootcandleLuxTable-1024x690.jpg

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#515 2021-12-26 20:13:42

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,433

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

For Calliban re #513

It may be a mistake on my part, but I am reminded once again of cathedrals, as I review your post ....

The vaulted ceilings in European cathedrals may well be parabolas .... I've not studied the designs, and so don't know one way or the other, but I would guess that early architects would have built structures to reflect natural force flows, even if they didn't know the mathematics or the terminology.

(th)

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#516 2021-12-26 21:07:29

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,920

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Calliban re #513

It may be a mistake on my part, but I am reminded once again of cathedrals, as I review your post ....

The vaulted ceilings in European cathedrals may well be parabolas .... I've not studied the designs, and so don't know one way or the other, but I would guess that early architects would have built structures to reflect natural force flows, even if they didn't know the mathematics or the terminology.

(th)

Quite so.  The link below gives some examples.
https://www.architecturelab.net/what-ar … -ceilings/

The barrel vault may be the easiest structure for us the engineer from repeatable units.  We could arrange the columns in rows and run steel I-beams along the tops of the columns.  The barrel vault edges could then site on top of the I-beams.   The barrel vault blocks can be lifted into place individually, with a supporting curved steel arch moving along as the key stone is lifted in place for each row.

Another idea is to assemble a barrel vault on level ground, without using columns and then cover it with regolith.  That way the whole structure can be made from a single repeatable unit, made entirely from Martian regolith.  The only steel needed is in the moulds that produce the bricks.

The groin vault sections are something we might be able to make from regolith as single pieces, which can then the lifted onto the tops of square arranged columns.  I like the idea of assembling premade regolith blocks in a way that avoids the need for any steelwork.  A barrel vault would need at least some, but it can be moved and reused.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-26 21:17:58)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#517 2021-12-26 22:26:34

RobertDyck
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Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

If you compare illumination tables that SpaceNut posted, they're consistent with the numbers I got from Engineering Toolbox. Illumination for the atrium I described as an example could be that for "Normal office work, PC work, study library, groceries, show rooms, laboratories, check-out areas, kitchens, auditoriums", which is 500 Lux. Or it could be that for "Supermarkets, mechanical workshops, office landscapes", which is slightly brighter at 750 Lux. However, compare that to outdoor illumination. Full daylight on Earth is 10,752 Lux. Full daylight on Mars is 53% that of full daylight in Earth, assuming that term means a cloudless day with no haze and low humidity. 53% of 10,752 Lux so "full daylight" on Mars is still 5,698.56 Lux. That's still 10 times as bright as "normal office work, PC work, study library, etc". And much brighter than "Supermarkets ... office landscapes". If you want the atrium to have "office landscape" illumination, due to indoor plants, then illumination will be 13.16% that of Mars surface during daylight. That means surface area of collector mirror on the surface must be 13.16% that of floor area beneath one vault of the atrium. One collector mirror will illuminate each vault. Surface area of the mirror is calculated as the flat disk of the open end of the parabolic mirror. The collector mirror is a 3D parabolic dish, but for the purpose of calculating size the "flat disk" is open air, but calculated as pi x radius squared for the radius of the open end of the parabolic mirror.

By the way, ceiling height does not affect illumination. Light produced per unit area of ceiling will equal light per unit area on the floor. Our Sun is a point source illuminating 3D space of our solar system, so illumination is surface if a sphere surrounding our Sun at a given distance. That means illumination decreases as the inverse square of distance. But in a 3D rectangle of a modern room, surface area of the ceiling is exactly the same as surface area of the floor. Illumination from a light bulb is a point source, but as you increase distance from the ceiling you are illuminated by more light bulbs. Very close to the ceiling you are illuminated effectively by one light bulb, at greater distance by light bulbs across the ceiling. If you obsess, the detail math can get complicated, but it reduces to 1:1. As long as illumination from light sources on the ceiling is consistent at regular intervals, then illumination near the ceiling is the same as illumination on the floor, regardless of ceiling height. This also assumes nothing but air between ceiling and floor, so there is no attenuation. For any room I've seen, whether classroom or house living room or supermarket, that assumption holds. Office spaces use fluorescent tubes instead of bulbs, and uses a transparent diffuser panel that has multiple small lenses to spread the light. This changes the light source to a surface instead of a line segment; so again illumination from the ceiling spreads to the floor with a 1:1 ratio. A table lamp or floor lamp typically has a "shade" which diffuses light, so you don't have "harsh" illumination from a light bulb. A bright point source with crisp shadows produces variation in lighting that adds difficulty to reading or any sort of work. But homes don't have ceilings covered in panels. A diffuser equivalent to a household ceiling light fixture is enough. You don't want the light pipe to produce a bright spotlight shining onto the floor surrounded by dark, but again a diffuser equivalent to a ceiling light fixture is enough.

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#518 2021-12-27 14:57:24

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

I am thinking that the floor will be cold so a radiant system to warm them is in order.
How to Install Electric Radiant-Floor Heat, If you want a cozy feeling during the cold season, this is a great solution for your home.

61538c387eb8b.png

Article contains the how to do.

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#519 2022-02-25 11:52:53

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 2,715

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

Microbes convert industrial waste gases into commodity chemicals
https://www.science.org/content/article … -chemicals

SpaceX Director Teases Moon Base Staffed by “Hundreds or Thousands”
https://futurism.com/the-byte/spacex-director-moon-base

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#520 2022-03-05 19:34:08

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

Seems that this topic needs a nudge to get numbers for use with 1000 people give or take for the large ship and even for any other plans.
First we need the raw number for per person for each day with no recycling so that we can give a recycling to energy requirement for the mass change.


The growing of food requires many aspects to make a mass change as we need to understand the method of growing, food types that we are replacing, energy demand by the system, need for water and fertilizers ect.
To survive on Mars, we need a 'technology that replaces what the Earth does.' This tube might be NASA's best hope.

5af1cf926598e02b008b45a2?width=1000&format=jpeg&auto=webp

The Mars Lunar Greenhouse is designed to supply 100% of the air and 50% of the food an astronaut needs for 2 years.

Article indicates that its sized for 1 person...


Of course the goals of a greenhouse will vary in location, duration of growing and more so its important to not confuse how and when its used.

https://www.esi.utexas.edu/files/089-Le … n-Mars.pdf

https://view.ceros.com/business-insider … ktop-2/p/1

page-thumbnail-crop.jpg

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#521 2022-03-09 21:52:34

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,721

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

The prototype involves an inflatable, deploy-able greenhouse to support plant and crop production for nutrition, air revitalization, water recycling and waste recycling. The process is called a bio-regenerative life support system. The design is based on underground use with no natural lighting which comes collapse as small as possible and needs erecting to make the structure.

Mars-Lunar Greenhouse (M-LGH). Funded by NASA Ralph Steckler Program, our team has designed and constructed a set of four cylindrical innovative 5.5 m (18 ft) long by 1.8 m (7 ft) diameter membrane M-LGHs with a cable-based hydroponic crop production system in a controlled environment that exhibits a high degree of future Lunar and/or Mars mission fidelity.

https://ag.arizona.edu/lunargreenhouse/

https://cals.arizona.edu/lunargreenhouse/MidReviews.htm

https://cals.arizona.edu/lunargreenhous … omelli.pdf

Bioregenerative Life Support
• Per Person Basis
 0.84 kg/day O2
 3.9 kg/day H2O
 50% of 11.8 MJ/day [BVAD Values, 2006]
•2000 Cal/day diet
•Buried habitat
•Six month crew change duration
•Solar for energy supply
•Autonomous deployment

Average daily water consumption 25.7 L day-1
Average daily CO2 consumption 0.22 kg day-1
Average daily elec. power consumption 100.3 kWh day-1 (361 MJ)

24 ± 4 g biomass (ww) per kWh, or
(83 g biomass (ww) per MJ)
edible + non-edible biomass

35.9 min day-1 labor use for operations

8 cable culture rows.
Plant within row spacing is 15 cm for lettuce, 20 cm for strawberry and cowpea, 20 cm for sweet potato, and 30 cm for tomato or cucumber.
Row-to-row spacing is 20 cm, for all rows, and a 45 cm walkway.
Tomato/cucumber crop on perimeter up to the overhead lamps.
Sweet potato vines grow at the cable level and downward beneath rows of cable culture.
Strawberry or cowpea, and lettuce at cable level (1 m above floor).

Photoperiod/darkperiod air temperature and relative humidity average 20.5 oC / 65% and 18.5 oC / 70%, respectively.
Atmospheric CO2 is elevated to 1000 ppm during 17 h photo-period at 300 Mol m-2 s-1 at the cable level.

6, SMC water-jacketed, 1000W high pressure sodium (HPS) lamps.

Nutrient solution (modified one-half strength Hoaglands solution)
6.0 pH and 1.8 mS cm-1 EC for the lettuce and strawberry,
6.5 pH and 1.8 EC for the sweet potato and tomato.
In situ plant biomass continually monitored and evaluated for intervals of 7 or 14 days of growth,

Wow still was using the sodium lights for heating of chamber and for light to grow with.

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#522 2022-04-25 14:57:46

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 2,715

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

This robot could turn Martian ice into drinking water for future astronauts

https://news.northeastern.edu/2022/04/2 … stronauts/

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#523 2022-04-25 18:46:56

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,433

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

This is a follow up to #522 by Mars_B4_Moon

The story at the link provided by Mars_B4_Moon is quite interesting (to me for sure).

https://news.northeastern.edu/2022/04/2 … stronauts/

The students used a combination of pounding and spinning their drill head to overcome the challenges of the NASA created test environment.

This work can be compared to the first (I'm sure embarrassing) failure of a Mars on site lander to drill a hole using a pound-only technique.

(th)

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#524 2022-04-25 20:07:00

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,721

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

The drill is the same as from the company that we would and had lined up, the heat probe to melt the ice in the core tube that the drill makes and it is hoped to be able to do so with a minimum mass and power which is where we were for the design.

ff8bbc3502ee458602469f1ecf8db68e-700x0-c-default.jpg

As GW has along with the probe from insight shown that we need to have a variety of tools in the box that we deliver to mars to allow for the greatest chance for success.

Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

LITA-drill.jpg

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