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#26 2016-01-06 12:39:02

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Conflict between Christianity and Going to Mars?

louis wrote:

Most atheists believe in social progress. If they contribute to social progress, they feel they share in that progress and so their ideas at least live on.

An interesting question is, how do I know the Universe continues after my death? From my point of view, my own death might as well be the end of the Universe and nothing exists after that moment, because I cannot experience it. Also how many universes are there? There are some theories about multiple universes, the one I experience could be just one, There might be a universe for every possible action, for example. Its possible that I could exist in another universe, after my death. Whatever my brain was doing at the moment of my death, another brain could continue doing in some other universe.

louis wrote:

What do we do in everyday life? We put ideas into action (I think I'll pop to the local store is followed by walking to the store). So this is no different - If you act on "I wish to see child labour ended around the globe" is followed by no children having their labour exploited, then you have put your idea into action, albeit you might be dead.

Another question you could put is: "Why do so many people who profess to believe in a happy afterlife fear death?"

A religious person substitutes a fear of Hell for the fear of death, he is uncertain whether he is going to Heaven or Hell, and is thus in no hurry to find out.

Because they don't know what comes after death.
An Atheists believes there is nothing after death.
A devote religious person believes there is life after death.
Most people fall in between and they don't know, and most aren't in any hurry to find out.

I myself don't know, and am quite willing to accept that I don't know, rather than to profess a belief certain that there is or there isn't. Most people don't want to die, but are willing to hold out hope that there is life after death, but they are by no means certain about that.

For an atheist who professes certainly that there is nothing after death, despite the fact that you can't prove a negative. (That is there is no way to prove that there isn't life after death. One can always come up with a scenario that makes it seem there is not life after death but there actually is, call this the "hidden afterlife hypothesis".)

Funny thing about ending child labor, before ending it, an 18-year old can start with job experience after an apprenticeship in  trade, but without such apprenticeships, young adults start out at 18 with no job experience, so its a two-sided coin.

louis wrote:
Tom Kalbfus wrote:
louis wrote:

You might wish (for some reason best known to yourself) to maintain atheists are incapable of self-sacrifice but the record shows you are wrong. In fact I would say philosophical atheists, particularly those who believe in history as progress, are strongly motivated towards self-sacrifice.  You need to read some history.

A silly argument. There were plenty of atheists who died in support of the Soviet State in the Civil War and WW2 or in the Spanish Civil War. They could have hung back, but they were keen to be in the forefront of the action.

Why would they be willing to end their existence, knowing that their existence would not continue if they ended it? It does not seem logical that people would do away with themselves without a believe that they would continue after death. After all what good does winning or losing a war do if you are not around to see it?

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#27 2016-01-06 17:05:50

Terraformer
Member
From: Ceres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,800
Website

Re: Conflict between Christianity and Going to Mars?

A religious person substitutes a fear of Hell for the fear of death, he is uncertain whether he is going to Heaven or Hell, and is thus in no hurry to find out.

Some might do, but none of the Christians I know, myself included, believe that. Personally, I want to keep living because living is good. I don't fear death, I would just prefer to be alive than dead.


"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

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#28 2016-01-08 12:50:19

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Conflict between Christianity and Going to Mars?

Terraformer wrote:

A religious person substitutes a fear of Hell for the fear of death, he is uncertain whether he is going to Heaven or Hell, and is thus in no hurry to find out.

Some might do, but none of the Christians I know, myself included, believe that. Personally, I want to keep living because living is good. I don't fear death, I would just prefer to be alive than dead.

An honest person will admit that whatever he believes, it might be wrong. Since we don't know of any afterlife, no evidence of such existing, we have to take it on faith, but we also have to understand that such blind faith may be misplaced. There are a lot of people who believe many different things, many of which are not consistent with each other. I am more worried about what is really out there, rather than hold firm convictions of what is out their and pretend that is enough! There is a Powerball Lottery drawing scheduled for tomorrow, I wonder that if I have a firm enough conviction that I will have the winning lottery number on my ticket, that it will come to pass. Maybe if I don't win, that is because I lacked faith in my winning lottery number. What do you think? As you can see, I'm in no hurry to die, it is just that unfortunate fact that I cannot postpone my death indefinitely that I am forced to face it and must comfort myself with some belief of what happens to my eternal soul, when I face my inevitable demise. I don't like that fact, but there is nothing I can do. The limiting factor is the understanding of the biology that keeps me alive, doctors and scientists simply don't know enough of the cellular mechanics to keep the cells which keep me alive, alive forever, unlike a car, where you can just keep on replacing parts indefinitely so long as parts are available. We still are mystified by the human body, even though we know a lot about it, we don't know enough about it to defeat aging and the death that follows. So until we do, we have faith to comfort ourselves about this unfortunate situation.

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#29 2016-01-08 18:01:09

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Conflict between Christianity and Going to Mars?

"might as well be" ain't the same as "is".

You "might as well" argue that when you leave your beloved pet cat at home for a day or two, there's no point in leaving any food for him during your absence, because - since you can't see him - he might as well not exist.  What point could there be in willing something (the feeding of your cat) if you aren't there to witness it?  Well, obviously 99% of cat owners think there's plenty of evidence for it being a worthwhile exercise. Same goes for people who leave money to charities to do good works after their death. Same goes for people who sacrifice their own lives to make the world better (or at least they hope so, and will be able to give reasons for why they have that hope).



Tom Kalbfus wrote:
louis wrote:

Most atheists believe in social progress. If they contribute to social progress, they feel they share in that progress and so their ideas at least live on.

An interesting question is, how do I know the Universe continues after my death? From my point of view, my own death might as well be the end of the Universe and nothing exists after that moment, because I cannot experience it. Also how many universes are there? There are some theories about multiple universes, the one I experience could be just one, There might be a universe for every possible action, for example. Its possible that I could exist in another universe, after my death. Whatever my brain was doing at the moment of my death, another brain could continue doing in some other universe.

louis wrote:

What do we do in everyday life? We put ideas into action (I think I'll pop to the local store is followed by walking to the store). So this is no different - If you act on "I wish to see child labour ended around the globe" is followed by no children having their labour exploited, then you have put your idea into action, albeit you might be dead.

Another question you could put is: "Why do so many people who profess to believe in a happy afterlife fear death?"

A religious person substitutes a fear of Hell for the fear of death, he is uncertain whether he is going to Heaven or Hell, and is thus in no hurry to find out.

Because they don't know what comes after death.
An Atheists believes there is nothing after death.
A devote religious person believes there is life after death.
Most people fall in between and they don't know, and most aren't in any hurry to find out.

I myself don't know, and am quite willing to accept that I don't know, rather than to profess a belief certain that there is or there isn't. Most people don't want to die, but are willing to hold out hope that there is life after death, but they are by no means certain about that.

For an atheist who professes certainly that there is nothing after death, despite the fact that you can't prove a negative. (That is there is no way to prove that there isn't life after death. One can always come up with a scenario that makes it seem there is not life after death but there actually is, call this the "hidden afterlife hypothesis".)

Funny thing about ending child labor, before ending it, an 18-year old can start with job experience after an apprenticeship in  trade, but without such apprenticeships, young adults start out at 18 with no job experience, so its a two-sided coin.

louis wrote:
Tom Kalbfus wrote:

Why would they be willing to end their existence, knowing that their existence would not continue if they ended it? It does not seem logical that people would do away with themselves without a believe that they would continue after death. After all what good does winning or losing a war do if you are not around to see it?


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#30 2016-01-10 13:14:14

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Conflict between Christianity and Going to Mars?

louis wrote:

"might as well be" ain't the same as "is".

You "might as well" argue that when you leave your beloved pet cat at home for a day or two, there's no point in leaving any food for him during your absence, because - since you can't see him - he might as well not exist.  What point could there be in willing something (the feeding of your cat) if you aren't there to witness it?  Well, obviously 99% of cat owners think there's plenty of evidence for it being a worthwhile exercise. Same goes for people who leave money to charities to do good works after their death. Same goes for people who sacrifice their own lives to make the world better (or at least they hope so, and will be able to give reasons for why they have that hope).

No way to tell whether your wishes would be carried out after you die, and there is no way to get back to that world after your death. As a mathematical model, you mind might exist in some other universe, after a googleplex number of years perhaps, the information that is your might, memories and personality might be replicated by pure chance. No way to tell in that other Universe what happened in the Universe you died in. It is speculation whether your consciousness would continue by mathematical probabilities. In the case of a cat, if you are just leaving him temporarily, you expect to come back at some point.

One thing that is interesting is why more Athiests don't use Cryonics services in a planned death, because that is the only possible afterlife they could have, if they don't believe in any others. Other than the one many universes away after an eternity of nothingness.

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#31 2016-01-10 19:18:29

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Conflict between Christianity and Going to Mars?

"No way to tell whether your wishes would be carried out after you die".   There is no way to tell whether your wishes will be carried out in this life! Have you never heard of the phrase "Be careful what you wish for." Politicians are forever wishing things which never come to fruition. Alternatively, they wish things that then come to fruition after they die.  Why are you hung up on this idea of being able to know what happens? 

To take the example of feeding the cat while you are away, there is no guarantee a burglar won't come and whisk away your automatic cat feeder or that a flood will wash away the cat food. How does that differ from  your wishes not being fulfilled after you are dead?  You will claim because in life you come back and find out what happened. To which I respond: (a) yes, but you may find your wishes have not been fulfilled - so what? - they were still good wishes you could defend rationally (I like my cat and want to keep him healthy), in the same way one can defend one's wishes for things to happen after your death and (b) why do you assume you can come back and observe the outcome? - you could get killed in a car crash on the way back, in which case you never discover the outcome (just like wishing for something after your death).

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
louis wrote:

"might as well be" ain't the same as "is".

You "might as well" argue that when you leave your beloved pet cat at home for a day or two, there's no point in leaving any food for him during your absence, because - since you can't see him - he might as well not exist.  What point could there be in willing something (the feeding of your cat) if you aren't there to witness it?  Well, obviously 99% of cat owners think there's plenty of evidence for it being a worthwhile exercise. Same goes for people who leave money to charities to do good works after their death. Same goes for people who sacrifice their own lives to make the world better (or at least they hope so, and will be able to give reasons for why they have that hope).

No way to tell whether your wishes would be carried out after you die, and there is no way to get back to that world after your death. As a mathematical model, you mind might exist in some other universe, after a googleplex number of years perhaps, the information that is your might, memories and personality might be replicated by pure chance. No way to tell in that other Universe what happened in the Universe you died in. It is speculation whether your consciousness would continue by mathematical probabilities. In the case of a cat, if you are just leaving him temporarily, you expect to come back at some point.

One thing that is interesting is why more Athiests don't use Cryonics services in a planned death, because that is the only possible afterlife they could have, if they don't believe in any others. Other than the one many universes away after an eternity of nothingness.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#32 2016-01-11 10:06:30

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Conflict between Christianity and Going to Mars?

Why would you be concerned about what happens in the hypothetical Universe after you are dead. People can talk about what can be done on Mars in the year 2100 AD, but for me, that is just an academic exercise, since I will likely not be around, as I would have to be 133 years old to live in such a time. Likewise, why are many people in NASA planning for Mars missions in 2043 when many of them would likely be dead? Doesn't the human lifespan put some urgency in projects like that, so people will try to accomplish something within their own lifetime, rather than someone else's? Also, I am not terribly concerned about global warming, because the result would occur in someone else's lifetime if at all. I don't believe in making sacrifices for some result which is unknowable because it doesn't occur within my expected lifespan. When I'm dead, I'm done with this World, the World is someone else's problem then. Why should I pay the cost for someone else, a distant descendent perhaps, to benefit? There is no way to tell whether what I am doing now will have its intended effect, beyond my lifetime, it might just as easily be a wasted effort based on bad information, I just don't know. I like to see results of my own actions, so I'm not a tremendous fan of multi-generational projects, that I will never live to see the end of.

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#33 2021-05-15 16:20:46

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Conflict between Christianity and Going to Mars?

I don't really have a problem with the idea of Christians and Mars, I've grown up around or in Christian culture but I'm not sure what I believe. Maybe Mars should have some form of Moral or Social value, wrote by what people I'm not sure. For me modern Christianity has been warped, you have so many breeds and sects of it and it has a lot of appeasement in it, it is rare you ever hear a Preacher talk real and its rare you hear a Priest fully quote a bible of God’s Power and Might they won't talk about Jesus throwing money people from the temples or the time he said 'Sell your Cloak and buy a Sword' an instruction, an instruction by a Sword by Jesus to his disciples...its like Christianity in its current form has been warped into this global Woodstock open borders brand. There many corrupted churches, many corrupt Temples out there and are Christians out there that are full of bad ideas, the Westboro Baptist Church going to soldiers funerals and screaming in people's faces is a bad idea. I don't really care for any big religion, they more they push the more Anti Religion or Atheist I become and having Mohammedanism, the Moslem faiths, the Islamism, on a place like Mars would be a really really bad idea, if you read their so called holy texts you can discover the founder of islam mohammed was a guy who attacked and raped and killed, a thief who hijacked camels, he tortured people, he was a pedophile who married a 6 yr old named Aisha. I'm disappointed US companies, American Universities and the Japanese who helped UAE Emirates an Islamist Monarchy with Sharia Law and Blasphemy Law that supports the murders of writers and cartoonists,  where Apostasy is a crime punishable by death the USA and Kamikaze Japan helped these Jihadist idiots to Mars. I don't think Communism is a good idea either, Mao was terrible and Joe Stalin another tyrant who killed as many as Hitler if not more. I'm not sure what the answer is or what a Mars constitution would be like.
What's interesting recently is how Musk is posting online, maybe he's messing around and pranking and doing comedy but his profile recently changed, it is now referring to himself as 'Imperator', like something out of a Cartoon, going from Howard Hughes to Lex Luthor or a Japanese video game villainas Elon Musk says he is Now the “Imperator of Mars” https://futurism.com/the-byte/elon-musk-imperator-mars

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-05-15 16:41:40)

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#34 2022-09-03 09:38:15

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Conflict between Christianity and Going to Mars?

NASA James Webb Scientist on How We'll Know if TRAPPIST-1 Is Home to Aliens
https://www.newsweek.com/nasa-james-web … fe-1731379

Which Religion Is Friendliest to the Idea of Aliens?
https://gizmodo.com/which-religion-is-f … 1841241730

book by David Weintraub, an astronomy professor at Vanderbilt University, takes a closer look at what the world’s major religions have to say about extraterrestrial life.
https://www.futurity.org/extraterrestri … on-773862/

old article 2011

Could Extraterrestrial Intelligence Sway Religious Beliefs?
https://www.space.com/10670-extraterres … liefs.html

Pope Francis: ‘Evolution … is not inconsistent with the notion of creation’
https://religionnews.com/2014/10/27/pop … -creation/
VATICAN CITY (RNS) “God is not a divine being or a magician, but the Creator who brought everything to life,” Pope Francis said.

What Do We Do If They Are Already Here? With Avi Loeb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dlytdDIkBQ

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