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This thread is only about Mars in a cautionary way now!
But to keep it brief, the now well known saying "If you're getting Flak it means you're over the target" applies completely to Trump.
We all know Trump's character faults but in terms of politics he was flying over the targets and that's what triggered all the reactions: opiate epidemic, non functioning NATO, Pharma scams, Deep State, Clinton crime family, China, Green nonsense, bogus senators like McCain...you name it, he attacked the target.
Trump's great failure was to always see the solution in terms of people not ideology. His solution always was "I've got this great guy who's gonna sort it all out - he's doing a great job". Fatal. Half of his appointees were Deep State plants who used his major character flaw (vanity), showering him with false praise, to gain his trust and then totally abuse it.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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Louis,
Yes, every character has his or her fatal flaw, and vanity / narcissism has always been President Trump's fatal flaw.
President Biden's fatal flaw is being a senile dementia patient who doesn't know who he is, where he is, or who he's talking to.
We traded someone who was excessively interested in how he was perceived for someone utterly incapable of perceiving himself or anyone else, and always fearful of saying or doing the wrong thing, because he has no thoughts of his own, and is instead being led around by the nose by all the special interest groups like a small schoolboy in Wonderland.
With President Biden in office, we've suffered through a never-ending string of unforced errors that have real consequences for everyone.
With President Trump in office, the entire world fixated on him like a bunch of psychotic and malevolent groupies.
At this point, I'm not sure which was worse, although I'd welcome a new President who could actually tell us what he or she was actually thinking and why.
Either way, we're now living through "idiocracy". Welcome to Derpistan.
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This is getting frustrating. The point of Mars is to get the hell away from government. Earth has unreasonable excessive overbearing regulation. That is stifling our economy, destroying personal freedom.
I'm sorry I responded to Tom's reference to Trump. Obviously he doesn't understand basic fundamentals. I gave a basic framework here. Yes, it was based on "King Me", because this is what needs to be done. Rather than some long-winded complex government system, I just said this is what government has to do, period. If I were king, it would be done, period.
Yes, I could live under a dictatorship... under the strict condition that I'm the dictator. Sounds silly, but I'm half serious. I never did come up with what would replace me. Every king eventually dies of old age. There's a Discord group that discusses Mars government. I was introduced during the Mars Society virtual convention. I posted a short version of my ideas, let's see what they have to say.
This discussion started with a proposal to finance settlement of Mars. Government will never do it. EVER! As I pointed out in my presentation of St. John's Newfoundland, for roughly a century (1526-1610) government colonies failed causing settlers to die. The first 10 settlements failed completely, the 11th was Jamestown. With 500 original settlers, by the time the 3rd supply ship showed up there were only 60 left alive. That supply ship brought 120 more settlers, so the total became 180. When the next ship showed up with a new governor, only 90 were left alive. They had abandoned the settlement, the new governor found them 10 miles downstream, ordered them back. The problem was all these government settlements expected supplies of food across the Atlantic. At a time of wooden ships with canvas sails. Politics got involved every time, resulting in supply vessels either being delayed by months or years, or just cancelled altogether. St. John's succeeded because it was built by businessmen. They didn't expect government supplies, and they lived off in-situ resources. They brought tools with them. When they were hungry they ate fish that they themselves caught. Look carefully at various plans for government settlement on the Moon or Mars. They all plan on shipping supplies from Earth. Has no one learned anything? This will fail! The same problems will happen. We've already seen delays supplying ISS. This hasn't resulted in disaster because they stocked sufficient surplus that they could live on stores when a supply ship was delayed or cancelled. And if all else fails, ISS has capsules that can return to Earth in hours or tens of minutes. Mars will not be able to escape to Earth, it will be constrained by planetary alignment. So when delays or cancellation happens due to technical failure or just politics, people will die. The solution is to do it the St. John's way: plan to live off in-situ resources from day One! Sure, science missions can bring stored food, and bring propellant to return to Earth. But permanent settlement must be able to produce food on Mars, not eventually, but immediately. Expect the expedition will arrive with all the tools and supplies they will ever get. Don't count on later supplies. Ensure the settlement has everything it needs to be food independent starting with arrival of the first permanent settlers.
Brian,
Your hyper-partisanship is not productive. There's enough blame for both major parties. And your constant cry that "America must be fixed" before anything in space happens... that's just annoying. Many people with a lot more influence than anyone here have tried. America is determined to self-destruct. Perhaps when Mars declares independence that'll be a slap in the face to get America to wake up.
Last edited by RobertDyck (2021-10-24 20:10:28)
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Robert,
I'm not of the opinion that we're going to "fix America". Nobody seems interested in solving the underlying problems. They all seem to want to be anointed "dictator of the world", much like you do. People who think that way are a dime a dozen, though. Merely having the ability to exercise capricious and dictatorial power over other people never ends well. There's always a more devious and maniacal dictator waiting in the wings.
Anyway...
How well do you suppose these underlying problems will be resolved by running off to Mars?
It's a great mental escape, but right now you and I both live on Earth, and have no hope of ever going to Mars the way things are headed.
Mars is not yet a viable escape plan. We have no slight clue if people can live in 38% of Earth's gravity. None.
All of the rockets to actually get to Mars are coming from an American corporation subjected to the capricious nature of our federal government, in case you hadn't noticed. Everybody I've ever talked to in Texas, is A-OK with SpaceX lighting that candle, whenever they're ready to do so.
Did you see all those multi-billionaires from Europe, or Russia, or China, or even Canada, who are spending every last cent and every waking hour they have, to put humanity on another planet?
It's been 50+ years since someone walked on the moon. No government, not even our government, is the slightest bit interested in actually doing it again, which is why ZERO tangible progress towards that goal has been made since then.
Seriously, what's their excuse?
We just screwed around with billions of your tax dollars to satisfy our intellectual curiosity by watching the good health of our best men and women slowly deteriorate while spinning around Earth like a top?
The people in charge are either a bunch of cowards who lack the pair of brass balls to get the job done, or they're simply not interested.
Unless there's a fully functional second branch of human civilization living on Mars before America self-destructs, where does that leave everyone living on Mars?
Has any other country ever launched a crewed mission to any other planet?
Russia has the tech to send people into orbit for a year at a time, but can't make one lousy trip around the moon?
Seriously, boss, in what world does any of that make any sense to you?
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I am hoping that we can get this back onto topic soon..
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Brian,
None of that makes sense. I'm as upset as you. One point of my presentation of St. John's Newfoundland is to say only business can do it, all governments must stay out of the way.
I lived through the 1960s. I was a preschooler, but watched the last two missions of Mercury on TV live with my mother. All of Gemini, and the Apollo 11 Moon landing. After Apollo 11, NASA promised the next goal would be Mars, and that human mission to Mars would happen in 1981. Then it was pushed to 1983. Then it was postponed indefinitely. We got Space Shuttle in 1981 instead. That was nice, but doesn't hold a candle to a human mission to Mars.
SpaceX has not operated in vacuum. The "land on your tail" reusable rocket was first demonstrated with DC-X aka Delta Clipper eXperimental. SpaceX didn't invent it, they just took a good idea and perfected it. Using stainless steel for cryogenic propellants isn't new, Atlas A was the rocket that launched John Glenn into orbit, it used stainless steel. And SpaceX was moving along fine until Blue Origin challenged them. New Shepard was the first rocket since DC-X to land on it's tail, it worked the first time. SpaceX tried to land on a barge at sea but failed every time. They finally landed on land, their first success. Then refined it to land on a barge. Blue Origin built a facility at Cape Canaveral for the purpose of New Glenn, a large launch vehicle much larger than Falcon Heavy. So Elon got serious about Starship, switched from carbon fibre to stainless steel, and abandoned further work on Falcon Heavy. FH is still not man rated. Will Blue Origin get New Glenn to work? Or will they abandon that in favour of milking profit from New Shepard? If Blue Origin abandons New Glenn, will SpaceX slow work on Starship?
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In the initial post, I suggested the corporation form the federal government. Someone (louis?) suggested that what I describe is not a federal government, it's unitary because there are no states/provinces/counties. However, as one person from the Discord pointed out, I did suggest cities would have so much authority that they would be city-states. With separation of powers, that is still a federal government. So states are restricted in geographic size, city-states instead of states the size of colonies.
The title is "Corporate Government" because that is how I envision settlement getting funded. To cite a quote from the Mercury program: "No bucks, no Buck Rogers." As an alternative, we could separate the federal government from the corporation. The corporation would have to contribute funds to the federal government. I said no tax for individuals, and no tax for corporations with fewer than 1,000 employees. However, larger corporations would have to pay something to the federal government. And the government would sell land for more money.
Some people have objected to the idea that the corporation would run a city on Mars as a company town. My point is government is not able to accomplish anything. As Brian pointed out. Even when budgets are increased, they still can't get anything done. But we don't have to. Airbus A380 was launched with a budget of €9.5 billion ($10.7 billion). There were additional costs, by the time development was finished it cost €25 billion ($28 billion). This shows how much money is available in private funding. The catch is it has to be profitable. So make the Mars corporation profitable.
Yes, I said the corporation would own and operate the interplanetary passenger transport. Passengers would spend their entire life savings: sell your house, sell your car, sell everything you can't carry with you, liquidate your life insurance, liquidate your pension plan and retirement savings. All for a ticket for yourself, spouse, children, and some luggage. And you have to provide the luggage. Wealthy individuals could bring equipment and supplies to build a homestead, but tradesmen will arrive on Mars with basically the clothes on their back.
The corporation will build a city on Mars to mine, refine, and manufacture everything to supply the ship. Greenhouses to grow food for the ship for both Mars-Earth and Earth-Mars trips. Equipment for maintenance and repairs of the ship. Propellant would come from either Mars, one of its moons, or an asteroid. So operating expenses will come from space economy, but passenger tickets will be paid in Earth currency. So once everything is setup, the ship will recover investment, then it's pure profit.
All passengers will arrive on Mars at the company owned city. There will be recruitment advertising to work for the corporation. Free apartment, free utilities, free healthcare. Company cafeteria with free food. But the cafeteria will only have cafeteria food, and restricted to company employees only. If you want to prepare a meal at home, you will have to buy groceries. If you want to meet someone for lunch who isn't a company employee, then it'll have to be a restaurant that's privately owned and you have to pay for your meal. With all the free stuff, pay won't be all that good. Equipment and supplies to build a homestead in the outback will be available from the company store. Yup, very much a company town. But again, the company has to make a profit.
Don't like it? Then build a homestead where you don't have to deal with the company. Or if you have a group of people, establish your own town.
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Robert,
Agreed. Government is the problem, not the solution. If more government was going to solve any problem worth solving, then that would've happened by now. It hasn't, and it's not going to. Since it's not going to, we need people with real leadership and drive to solve real problems, otherwise it's not going to happen.
The underlying problem humanity is facing, that nobody wants to address, as Thomas Sowell so eloquently put it, is the constrained versus unconstrained view of humanity. Some people think that by placing artificial constraints on all of their solutions, they will somehow achieve a better tomorrow. There's no evidence of that in our entire history, and that's more than just an American problem.
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For RobertDyck re topic....
OK ... going with the flow here ...
You've proposed an autocracy as the optimum way of organizing a group of humans (on Mars or anywhere) and you've proposed yourself as the autocrat.
We have many examples of autocrats in human history to study, and we have lots of them to study right now.
If you were such an autocrat, almost no one would agree with any decision you make, so you would need a strong force of ruthless thugs to impose your will.
It's not just withholding of pay that you would need. You'd need total surveillance of the entire planet, much as Chairman Xi has implemented in China.
You'd need massive jails to house all those who disagree with you, because without physical restraint, they will most surely do the same to you at the first opportunity.
You'd need a way to detect antagonistic thinking in your subjects as it develops, so you can put ** those ** people in jail.
You'd need to have a way to keep track of every weapon, every possible bomb making chemical and of course, every possible biological agent that might be injected into a habitat by a simple drilled hole.
(th)
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Tom,
You argued in favour of Chinese rule in post #171. My proposal is the federal government of Mars has the primary role of ensuring no one else imposes rule. I'm constantly amazed by people who want to impose their will on others. My proposal is the federal government of Mars is there to say no. If you want some ridiculous government for your city, sure, go ahead. See if anyone wants to live there. But you will be restricted to one city. If you want to create a nation with large territory, the answer is no. If you want to create a military to attack other cities, then the national military will be there to stop you.
If you find this shocking, then I have to point out the large number of individuals who have proposed communist rule over Mars, or military structure with a commander who has autocratic rule.
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For RobertDyck re topic ...
In an earlier post you hinted you wanted to become the Dictator/Emperor of Mars.
In Post #185 you seem to be backing away from that idea but I'm not sure how far you've come.
How would you select the members of the "federal government" ???
A pure democracy is risky ... The US is struggling with that concept right now, and it is not at all clear how things will turn out.
The forces of White Supremacy are strong and persistent, and they have control of many rural States.
In an earlier post, you used the word "required" .... I'd have to go back to find the context, but the question that occurred to me at the time was how you were planning to "require" anything of anyone without a strong force of personnel to impose violence upon anyone who questions your rule.
(th)
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I'm not comfortable with the word "thugs". Declaring myself king of the world is a fantasy. Chances of that are slim. But to focus on "thugs", would you call city police "thugs"? Would you use that word for American military? What would happen if a group of states were to declare they are seceding from the union?
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For RobertDyck re #187
Thanks for the feedback .... I'll change the word.
The intention was to show (to the extent it is possible) that an authoritarian structure must be enforced with violence.
We have many examples right now on Earth. The military just took over in Sudan.
(th)
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One of my bullet points in post #170 was the federal government would maintain a military. The primary purpose of that military is to ensure cities don't go to war with eachother. And a city-state may be unsatisfied with being restricted to a city.
I envision police of the capital city doubling as federal police until population is large enough to justify a separate federal police service. But only federal laws will apply outside city limits. City bylaws of the capital city only apply within city limits. One task iof the federal police is if municipal police attempt to enforce town/city bylaws outside town/city limits, the federal police will stop them. If necessary federal police will arrest municipal police.
Last edited by RobertDyck (2021-10-25 14:08:38)
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Seems like you never learn from history Robert. The US military effectively split in two before they conducted the American Civil War. A federal military force can never be a guarantor of peace. The USSR fell apart when its supposedly free constituent parts started exerting their freedom. In the UK we had King v Parliament in the 1640s even though they were theoretically part of the same system.
You seem always to deny the reality of human nature. We are social primates with an inordinate interest in individual status and a strong bias towards using violence to settle disputes. Culture can direct some of our innate impulses but it can't eradicate them.
And Federal Police can only arrest Municipal Police if they are strong enough to do so.
One of my bullet points in post #170 was the federal government would maintain a military. The primary purpose of that military is to ensure cities don't go to war with eachother. And a city-state may be unsatisfied with being restricted to a city.
I envision police of the capital city doubling as federal police until population is large enough to justify a separate federal police service. But only federal laws will apply outside city limits. City bylaws of the capital city only apply within city limits. One task iof the federal police is if municipal police attempt to enforce town/city bylaws outside town/city limits, the federal police will stop them. If necessary federal police will arrest municipal police.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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Federal police can call the military to back them up, municipal police cannot.
Military will be accountable to the federal government only. Not to municipalities. And the military barracks will be in the capital city, not any city-state. If this grows to the point where military has to be spread out to avoid vulnerability, then bases will be isolated, no contact with city-states.
If you think it's safe to allow rich corporations or cities to operate without oversight, then you haven't learned from history.
Last edited by RobertDyck (2021-10-25 20:26:47)
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tahanson43206,
The forces of White Supremacy are strong and persistent, and they have control of many rural States.
Do you have any slight clue how arrogant and ignorant statements like that come off?
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Robert,
I think you're probably are on the right track, because that's how our federal government kept cities and states from fighting with each other.
That "benevolent dictatorship" thing won't last, though.
Military command structure is not the type of dictatorship most civilians imagine it to be. What we're allowed to do is very tightly controlled by national command authority, always initiated by a civilian employee of the executive branch. Any military commander worth their salt takes lawful orders from civil authority and then merely supervises tasking delegated to his or her subordinates. A young Lieutenant or Sergeant probably has more real command authority in an actual battle than most Generals, except as it relates to deciding to engage in or disengage from battle to begin with.
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For kbd512 re #192
Thank you for your feedback! It is helpful to have this issue on the table.
For RobertDyck ... as you plan to develop a society, it is helpful to study human history. It is observable that humans have lived in tribes, and acquired the thought patterns of tribe members and tribe leaders for thousands of years.
For kbd512, you are most certainly right ...
I was born ignorant, and despite the efforts of parents, teachers and countless authors, I remain ignorant.
It is (for me at least) a never ending struggle to try to overcome ignorance, and as you have pointed out, ignorance is winning.
I made the statement (based upon observation) that the forces of White Supremacy are strong in the United States.
In an effort to overcome my ignorance about how many White Supremacists there are, how well funded they are, how well armed they are, etc...
I asked Google how many White Supremacists there are in the United States...
White hate groups - List of U.S. Hate Groups
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Are there hate groups near you? Search our interactive map. Last year, we tracked over 800 hate groups across the U.S. Hate Groups by State. Anti-Muslim. Types: Exposing Extremists, Monitoring Hate Groups, Teaching Tolerance.Hate Groups Map
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Exposing Extremist Groups
But How Many White Supremacists Are There, Really? See on This ...www.thewrap.com › how-many-white-supremacists-splc-hate-map
In wake of the violence over the weekend in Charlottesville, where counter-protesters clashed with white supremacists at a white nationalist rally, ...
White Nationalist | Southern Poverty Law Centerwww.splcenter.org › fighting-hate › extremist-files › ideology › white-nati...
Groups listed in a variety of other categories—Ku Klux Klan, neo-Confederate, neo-Nazi, racist skinhead and Christian Identity—could also be fairly described as ...
Hate Map | Southern Poverty Law Center
www.splcenter.org › hate-map
Subscribe to the https://soundslikehate.org/">Sounds Like Hate podcast to learn more about hate groups like the Proud Boys.How White Supremacy Returned to Mainstream Politics - Center for ...
www.americanprogress.org › issues › security › reports › 2020/07/01 › wh...
Jul 1, 2020 · Neo-Nazis and white supremacists march through the University of Virginia campus in Charlottesville, Virginia, on August 11, 2017. OVERVIEW.A National Policy Blueprint To End White Supremacist Violence
www.americanprogress.org › issues › security › reports › 2021/04/21 › nat...
Apr 21, 2021 · This includes hate crimes and terrorism carried out by white supremacist extremists. Part of the political and social discussion regarding white ...white supremacist propaganda hits an all-time high - USA Today
www.usatoday.com › story › news › nation › 2021/03/17 › white-suprema...
Mar 17, 2021 · White supremacist propaganda hit an all-time high in 2020 with almost 5200 cases of racist, antisemitic and anti-LGBTQ+ posters, ...The Facts on White Nationalism - FactCheck.org
www.factcheck.org › 2019/03 › the-facts-on-white-nationalism
Mar 20, 2019 · In the wake of the attack on two New Zealand mosques, President Donald Trump said he did not see white nationalism as a rising threat around ...Category:White supremacist groups in the United States - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Category:White_supremacist_groups_in_the_Uni...
This category has the following 11 subcategories, out of 11 total. Neo-Nazi organizations in the United States (3 C, 37 P).CONFRONTING WHITE SUPREMACY (PART I) - Govinfo.gov
www.govinfo.gov › content › pkg › html
Despite all of the problems causing the undercount of white supremacist violence, the data still shows us that hate crimes are sharply on the rise.
American Extremism: White Supremacists - Homeland Security ...
www.hsdl.org › american-extremism
May 26, 2020 · The report identifies 199 known white supremacist groups, separated into two categories: National Socialists (or neo-Nazis), who believe that ...The Facts on White Nationalism - FactCheck.org
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Alas, I don't have time to read all that material. I wish I did. Then I might put a tiny dent in my ignorance of the dangers of White Supremacy.
(th)
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One observation is ever growing government overreach. Certain individuals think it's acceptable to impose their values on someone else. These individuals are a minority in society but very loud. Government keeps imposing more regulations to pander to these loudmouths. It's supposed to be the job of government to tell them to mind their own business, but too many politicians pander to those who give them attention. This has resulted in major problems with society.
Furthermore, government over time is becoming more dictatorial, less accountable to voters. I live in Winnipeg, it was surrounded by bedroom communities, in 1972 they merged into one large city. Number of councillors was increased, basically every councillor from absorbed communities got to keep their job. Councillors were expected to be part time and paid $10,000/year in 1972 dollars. Over time number of councillors was reduced, and remaining councillors paid a high salary. Some time between 1992-1998 the mayor created the "Executive Policy Committee". The mayor appointed councillors to this committee and usurped all authority of council. Now only members of that committee exercise any authority and if any councillor tries to do something the mayor doesn't like, he/she is kicked off. This gives the mayor dictatorial control, and councillors are not accountable to voters.
This year the provincial government introduced a bill to dissolve all school boards, give the Minister of Education complete control. Luckily it looks like that bill will die.
Last edited by RobertDyck (2021-10-26 21:21:39)
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The point of Mars is to be the next frontier. To start over. Dragging along the extreme government overreach that exists on Earth today would defeat the point.
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I started this thread with a way to fund settlement. I suggested the federal government would be established by the corporation and funded by it. To avoid junior corporate executives trying to prove themselves becoming a problem, the corporate CEO would be King. This would be temporary. A better form of government would have to follow. Instead of just the founding corporation funding the federal government, all large corporations would pay something. You could separate them from the beginning, but the greater the number of people involved the more they will want to ensure they have some sort of impact. The point of Mars is for the federal government to be minimal.
Financing: the corporation will get its money from tickets of passengers. As I said, ticket price will essentially be a person's life saving, paid in Earth currency. The corporation will quickly establish a single settlement to mine/refine/manufacture everything the ship needs. All maintenance, upgrades and repairs done in Mars orbit. Food grown in Mars greenhouses. So operating expenses from Mars but income on Earth.
For this to work, people have to want to move to Mars. Duplicating all the problems of Earth will not do that.
Last edited by RobertDyck (2021-10-26 11:41:17)
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For RobertDyck re topic ...
It is good to see your evolving thinking as you develop this topic.
The problems on Earth are due ** entirely ** to the presence of people on Earth.
Mars currently has NO problems! It is serene and content.
The minute people show up, there will be problems.
Whatever problems exist in the minds of people on Earth today will most ** definitely ** show up on Mars tomorrow.
Your idea of "starting over" implies that you can find people who want to leave all their existing beliefs, prejudices and preferences behind.
You had said (repeatedly) that you want to invite workers who are desperate enough to give up everything to try for a better life.
That is a pretty good description of most refugees we have right now on Earth.
Not ** one ** person is going to adopt a new attitude when they transit from Earth to Mars. They are going to be exactly the same person they were when they left, not taking into account whatever happens to them on the journey.
How are you going to build a new society from that raw material?
(th)
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Most *people* want government and busybody neighbours to mind their own business, but out of their lives. It's only the small number of loudmouth schnooks who create trouble. But government has pandered to those loudmouth schnooks for so long that government no longer represents "the people". And billionaires have bribed governments to create regulations that favour billionaires, harms workers and small business. Ensuring Mars favours entrepreneurs and small business is consistent.
You have an industry that produces toxic waste? Earth has massive regulations. Mars is frozen, any waste dumped in a crater is going to stay exactly where you dumped it. There is no liquid water aquifer on Mars. Average surface temperature on Mars is -81°F (-63°C), which means the surface is frozen to more than a kilometre depth. If you want to be careful, dig up a deposit of clay and line a crater with that. Your waste is fine powder? Cover your toxic waste with more clay so it doesn't blow in the wind. Your industrial process creates toxic smoke/gas? Mars has a CO2 atmosphere and carbon monoxide is a natural part of the atmosphere. Greenhouse gasses would benefit Mars.
Last edited by RobertDyck (2021-10-26 14:33:53)
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Some where along the line we decided that we need others in charge and that has led to the corruption that we see at the local levels for that busy body zoning and more.
From the state side they have imposed taxation of property as the only means to pay for those that think they should forever stay in charge.
Then the overseeing government level is even more corrupt in that they are supposed to be voting for the people that they sever and all we see are all the money changing hands that buy their votes.
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