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#76 2012-08-22 13:27:58

louis
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

RGClark wrote:

Just saw this posted to the www.marsroverblog.com forum:


PIA16081: Taking Mars' Temperature.
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/browse/PIA16081.jpg
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA16081



PIA16080: First Pressure Readings on Mars..
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/browse/PIA16080.jpg
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA16080



Note that the pressure never fell below the 6.1 mbars pressure required for pure water to remain liquid, i.e., not boil off.
Also, eyeballing the temperature graph it looks like surface temperatures remain above 0C for perhaps 3 hours per day.


   Bob Clark


Excellent news. Can you remind me - what season are we in on Mars? Is high summer, low summer or something else?


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#77 2012-08-23 16:01:52

Vincent
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

This is the first processed, "natural color," image of the Martian sky. First, it aint red. The scene looks very natural but much detail about the haze layer is lost in the jpeg haze.  It is there no doubt and during decent a "water ice haze layer" was noted. This was in the late afternoon during rapid cooling, makes sense.

So we wait for the sunrise and sunset images.

Vincent

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11627092@N06/7847106852/

Image by, Ant103-UMSF


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#78 2012-08-23 17:31:43

Vincent
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

You got to admit..... this is way cool....

Vincent

http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012 … mars-in-hd


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#79 2012-08-24 08:41:40

Vincent
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

The high temperature on Sol 16 in Gale Crater was 0C or 32F. At the same time temperatures approached 0C or 32F at a buoy at 82.9 degrees north latitude near the north pole on Earth. This is the warmest time of year in the Arctic Summer. There is a Weather Cam at this location and my ritual of watching the sun set in the Arctic with my morning coffee over the next three weeks has begun.

This morning as I looked out at the wonderful scene I wondered. When water sill filled Gale Crater as the atmosphere thinned and liquid turned to ice would it have looked something like this? Did anything lurk in the water for just a little while? Does frost form still to supply liquid water in the late afternoon today? If that were the case, surely the ChemCam would shown hydrogen. I think it did.

Enjoy the beauty of the Earth's Arctic Summer, Image below.

Vincent

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11627092@N … hotostream

Last edited by Vincent (2012-08-24 09:03:36)


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#80 2012-08-24 11:58:00

Vincent
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

A link to the polar cam. If you too want it with your morning coffee.

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/

Last edited by Vincent (2012-08-24 11:58:29)


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#81 2012-08-24 14:20:13

Vincent
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

Another Rover can case a shadow.

Image from Hortonheardawho. A damn great man. Mars rover blog.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11627092@N06/7852963850/


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#82 2012-08-25 14:34:15

GW Johnson
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

quote:

Note that the pressure never fell below the 6.1 mbars pressure required for pure water to remain liquid, i.e., not boil off.
Also, eyeballing the temperature graph it looks like surface temperatures remain above 0C for perhaps 3 hours per day.

   Bob Clark

Don't get too excited about 7+ mbar pressure observations vs the possibility of liquid water.  What keeps ice from sublimating,  and liquid water from boiling away,  at 0 C is not 6.1 mbar total pressure,  but 6.1 mbar water vapor partial pressure. 

The atmospheric pressure might reach 7.8 mbar total,  but just how much of that is water vapor partial pressure?  If it's under 6.1 mbar (and it is,  because the dry surface pressure of the CO2 is pretty close to 6-7 mbar all over the plains of Mars,  leaving at most 1.8 mbar water vapor partial pressure),  then there is no equilibrium liquid water on the Curiosity site,  except as the briefest of transients (by definition not equilibrium). 

A question:  why would/should the atmosphere pressure be cycling up and down (post #76 above),  with almost exactly the same trace shape,  at exactly the same frequency?  Which frequency is 1 cycle per sol?  Is that not an instrumentation artifact of some kind?  Perhaps a reading sensitivity to instrument soak-out temperature?

This is nearly-raw data from an experimental instrument platform.  I'd be very careful about saying it was an accurate reading of true conditions on Mars. 

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#83 2012-08-25 15:52:17

RGClark
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

louis wrote:

Excellent news. Can you remind me - what season are we in on Mars? Is high summer, low summer or something else?

It's late southern Winter transitioning into early southern Spring on Mars.

  Bob Clark


Nanotechnology now can produce the space elevator and private orbital launchers. It now also makes possible the long desired 'flying cars'. This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:
Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/nano … 13319568#/

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#84 2012-08-25 15:59:27

louis
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

RGClark wrote:
louis wrote:

Excellent news. Can you remind me - what season are we in on Mars? Is high summer, low summer or something else?

It's late southern Winter transitioning into early southern Spring on Mars.

  Bob Clark


Thanks Bob.  So we should see some higher temperatures in the coming weeks. Interesting.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#85 2012-08-25 19:34:45

Midoshi
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

louis wrote:
RGClark wrote:
louis wrote:

Excellent news. Can you remind me - what season are we in on Mars? Is high summer, low summer or something else?

It's late southern Winter transitioning into early southern Spring on Mars.

  Bob Clark


Thanks Bob.  So we should see some higher temperatures in the coming weeks. Interesting.

Mars as a whole will also receive more light over the next several months at it gets closer to the Sun in its orbit. Its large eccentricity makes this a major seasonal effect, whereas it's negligible on Earth.


"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

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#86 2012-08-26 04:23:41

louis
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

Midoshi wrote:
louis wrote:
RGClark wrote:

It's late southern Winter transitioning into early southern Spring on Mars.

  Bob Clark


Thanks Bob.  So we should see some higher temperatures in the coming weeks. Interesting.

Mars as a whole will also receive more light over the next several months at it gets closer to the Sun in its orbit. Its large eccentricity makes this a major seasonal effect, whereas it's negligible on Earth.

Thanks for that - I've noted from NASA statements that the pics we see are enhanced to replicate earth light conditions.  Would be interesting to see what the "real" light conditions are. I imagine like a rather gloomy clouded day in the northern temperate zone on Earth.


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#87 2012-08-26 13:23:31

Vincent
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

Partial Pressure for Dummies:

What is Partial Pressure? It goes like this. Let's say we have 10 millibars of pressure for simplicity. You can translate these by multiplying the actual pressures to the various parts, i.e. 7.29Mb would translate to

So of these 10mb, 8 mbs are CO2. Various aerosols are 1.2 mbs and water is .8 mbs. The partial pressure of water in the sample is .8 mbs.

Being a gas, liquid or solid is a "state. " Partial pressure has nothing to do with it. It does, however, signal the samples current state of saturation that is temperature dependent.  It will set up a gradient based on relative humidity. This will vary with the same sample depending on temperature. The lower the humidity,  increase rates of sublimation or evaporation will occur. There are variables that will change these rates regardless of the humidity. Micro or mesoscale caps and inversions. These can and do prevent mixing.

Vincent

Last edited by Vincent (2012-08-26 13:45:32)


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#88 2012-08-26 15:23:46

Midoshi
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

louis wrote:

I've noted from NASA statements that the pics we see are enhanced to replicate earth light conditions.  Would be interesting to see what the "real" light conditions are. I imagine like a rather gloomy clouded day in the northern temperate zone on Earth.

They've actually been releasing both unaltered and white balanced images for everything, though I find it's sometimes tricky to track both down. The unaltered is closer to what a person would see on Mars, but the white balanced is more useful scientifically because geologists can use their intuition based on Earth coloration and better identify interesting targets.

For example, here's an unaltered image:
676029main_pia16052-color-full_full.jpg

And here's the white-balanced version:
676016main_pia16052-figure_3white.jpg


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#89 2012-08-26 16:51:49

Vincent
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

Also of note about the images showing "natural color." The sky from the raw Viking images were correctly shown with a "green" hue. I have noticed some of the images are leaning this way. If green is made by mixing blue and yellow this should be the case, sometime.

A thin haze of tan could present a yellow hue. Raleigh scattering would add a blue hue. We may not see little green men, but we should see green skies at times.

Vincent


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#90 2012-08-26 17:23:55

louis
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

Midoshi wrote:
louis wrote:

I've noted from NASA statements that the pics we see are enhanced to replicate earth light conditions.  Would be interesting to see what the "real" light conditions are. I imagine like a rather gloomy clouded day in the northern temperate zone on Earth.

They've actually been releasing both unaltered and white balanced images for everything, though I find it's sometimes tricky to track both down. The unaltered is closer to what a person would see on Mars, but the white balanced is more useful scientifically because geologists can use their intuition based on Earth coloration and better identify interesting targets.

For example, here's an unaltered image:
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/6760 … l_full.jpg

And here's the white-balanced version:
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/6760 … 3white.jpg


Wow! So breathtakingly beautiful.  I can't think why humanity isn't desperate to get humans there as soon as possible. And this is just a pretty ordinary part of Mars.

Do we have any measurement of visibility/dust concentration?  Seemed pretty clear on landing judging from the satellite or other above shots.  But the light looks quite diffuse there in the unaltered.


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#91 2012-08-26 17:25:38

louis
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

Vincent wrote:

Also of note about the images showing "natural color." The sky from the raw Viking images were correctly shown with a "green" hue. I have noticed some of the images are leaning this way. If green is made by mixing blue and yellow this should be the case, sometime.

A thin haze of tan could present a yellow hue. Raleigh scattering would add a blue hue. We may not see little green men, but we should see green skies at times.

Vincent

Yes, there is a touch of green to it.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#92 2012-08-26 19:10:03

Midoshi
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

louis wrote:
Midoshi wrote:

They've actually been releasing both unaltered and white balanced images for everything, though I find it's sometimes tricky to track both down. The unaltered is closer to what a person would see on Mars, but the white balanced is more useful scientifically because geologists can use their intuition based on Earth coloration and better identify interesting targets.

For example, here's an unaltered image:
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/6760 … l_full.jpg

And here's the white-balanced version:
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/6760 … 3white.jpg


Wow! So breathtakingly beautiful.  I can't think why humanity isn't desperate to get humans there as soon as possible. And this is just a pretty ordinary part of Mars.

Do we have any measurement of visibility/dust concentration?  Seemed pretty clear on landing judging from the satellite or other above shots.  But the light looks quite diffuse there in the unaltered.

Conditions are still very clear (for Mars anyway). One reason those "hills" (actually the northern rim of Gale crater) look so fuzzy is that they are actually quite far away, about 18 km. So even though the amount of dust and haze (water ice) loading is relatively small, there is just a lot of atmosphere between the rover and those valley networks. It reminds me a bit of the Rocky Mountains in the western US actually; you get a very similar situation with relatively flat plains suddenly giving way to a massive wall of rock. I think John Grotzinger put it well when he observed that this terrain is very "comfortable" for us humans. It is so exciting to see something so Earth-like (and yet not) on another world!

To answer your question, I'm not aware of any hard numbers from the Curiosity team on dust opacity yet. But I can say that things will get dustier as times goes on and dust storm season approaches.


"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

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#93 2012-08-27 04:31:32

louis
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

Thanks for the reminder Midoshi that heat=dust.

It is indeed a very "comfortable" landscape. 

Longer term, I think the pressure for colonisation can only build as people on Earth gradually come to realise just how familiar-looking  planet Mars is. Of course the really big change will come when we get some people there. I am sure Musk is working on it!


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#94 2012-08-28 11:20:15

SpaceNut
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

Posting complete article as the paper wants online to ber paid for....

Mars 'Curiosity': Dover woman chosen for behind-the-scenes opportunity

By SAMANTHA ALLEN
sallen@fosters.com

Monday, August 27, 2012

DOVER — Monica Wolfson lived through "seven minutes of terror."

When the rover destined for Mars named "Curiosity" hit the planet's atmosphere, at approximately 13,000 miles per hour, earlier this month, Wolfson said that's when the seven minutes of guessing begins.

"From the time the rover enters Mars' atmosphere ¿ NASA doesn't really have anyway to really communicate with it," she said. "A million things could go wrong."

As a doctoral student at the University of New Hampshire's (UNH) Center for Coastal and Ocean Mapping, the 34-year-old has known pressure like most, but nothing compares to what she witnessed behind the scenes at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California.

Wolfson, of Dover, remembers the date and time exactly when, Curiosity touch-downed: 10:31 p.m., local time, on Sunday, Aug. 5. Wolfson laughs today, she almost missed it. An announcer quietly beamed over the audio system "TD."

"TD? We were all wondering, 'What is that?'" she said, with a laugh.

Thanks to catching a post on Twitter from the NASA's program for incorporating everyday people in their activities, Wolfson was selected at random as one of 25 people to come and witness the landing. The 25 experienced a weekend full of events and tours, with the crowning moment right outside NASA's mission control room.

Along with the others chosen, Wolfson was asked to constantly blog, tweet and chat into the cyberworld through social media outlets, relaying her experiences to others.

"My friend said he was getting faster updated from me than from the broadcast," she reminisced, noting the live video feed online slowed so much from users signing on.

Therefore, Wolfson was, at times, providing the world with the most current Mars rover updates.

"(Things like) 'Curiosity's five minutes out,' (and) 'Five minutes from the atmosphere," she said, "When it got closer, more exciting stuff happened. 'The parachute's launched.' 'The heat shield's coming off.'"

Wolfson, who is pursuing a Ph.D. in the oceanography program through UNH's earth science department, said she was in awe of the capabilities of one machine hurdling through space.

"The fact they can launch anything from here, fly it through space for eight months and then get it to land on the surface of Mars?" she posed, excitedly. "And it functions? And does its stuff and lands where they want it to? I think that's just amazing for any rover."

During her NASA visit, Wolfson also met celebrity space enthusiasts including Will. i. Am of the Black Eyed Peas and Alex Trebek. She also heard rumors Morgan Freeman was on the other side of a crowded room during one evening event, though she didn't spot him.

But, Wolfson recalls most fondly the moment of accomplishment for NASA.

"When we had been there, we met part of the team and we saw the behind the scenes, it was a lot more personal for us," she said. "You feel more invested in it, because, you know what the odds are. You know what exactly has to happen for everything to go right."

Wolfson said the cheering, hugging and high-fiving she saw inside the control room as technicians celebrated the perfect landing of Curiosity is a moment she won't forget.

"There was a lot of excitement, but I was a little apprehensive," she said, remembering her thoughts before the momentous occasion. "I was worried ¿ I knew everybody would just be crushed. People had poured nine years of their lives into this project. They told us over 400 scientists around the world were involved ¿ If you count all the people who manufacture one part that went into the rover, it was over 7,000 people. And it made you root for the rover."

For the future, as she continues to work on papers regarding seismic behavior on the ocean floor, Wolfson said she's just thrilled to hear what Curiosity pulls off next.

"The pictures she's sent back already are amazing," she said, noting the Mini Cooper-sized machine is programmed to test soil, analyze rock and maybe even find signs of life.

"It's just amazing."

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#95 2012-08-29 21:57:53

SpaceNut
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

Sedimentary strata in the foothills of Mount Sharp:

681052main_pia16105-43_946-710.jpg

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#96 2012-08-30 00:03:08

Rxke
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

wooooow!!! yikes
geologists popping veins all over the world!

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#97 2012-08-30 02:03:15

louis
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

Rxke wrote:

wooooow!!! yikes
geologists popping veins all over the world!


No doubt...as a non-geologist, my thoughts are (a) that this mission is going to confirm what we pretty much know already (and we should be putting the money into a human mission to Mars) and (b) I can't wait for the camera to get up Mount Sharp and take some pics looking down - they should be spectacular with a bit of luck!


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#98 2012-08-30 14:59:32

Vincent
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

Why do i feel like a mushroom? Why, when I look on the raw data feeds all I get are postage stamp 8 pixel images from a 2.5 billion dollar rover? I can get better images with a 25 dollar digital camera from wal-mart.

Yea, there will be some spectacular images. the question is will we ever see them?

Good luck with all of that........ This is starting to stink.


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#99 2012-08-30 19:01:34

Vincent
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

I am blind. Blinded by the light. The light is "illusion."

I am going off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcWVL4B-4pI

Last edited by Vincent (2012-08-30 19:02:37)


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#100 2012-08-30 19:01:35

louis
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Re: Official MSL / Curiosity Rover Thread | Aug 5, 2012 10:31 p.m. PT

Vincent wrote:

Why do i feel like a mushroom? Why, when I look on the raw data feeds all I get are postage stamp 8 pixel images from a 2.5 billion dollar rover? I can get better images with a 25 dollar digital camera from wal-mart.

Yea, there will be some spectacular images. the question is will we ever see them?

Good luck with all of that........ This is starting to stink.

I get the same...something to do with our computer programmes?

But yes, I do wonder quite how much energy NASA has put into improving data flow from the Mars surface.  I don't believe, given all the advances in data management and digital technology that we can't do a lot better than we are doing. We should be getting streaming video from Mars in 2012, 24/7 live on the NASA website.  That's what I expect for billions of dollars. smile


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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