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#151 2015-01-23 17:59:06

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Ceres

Ceres probably has more gold than Fort Knox.

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#152 2015-01-26 09:17:15

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Ceres

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining

could be exhausted on Earth within 50–60 years

Purpose

Based on known terrestrial reserves and growing consumption in developing countries along with excessive exploitation by developed countries, there is speculation that key elements needed for modern industry and food production, including phosphorus, antimony, zinc, tin, silver, lead, indium, gold, and copper, could be exhausted on Earth within 50–60 years.[2] In response, it has been suggested that platinum, cobalt and other valuable elements from asteroids may be mined and sent to Earth for profit, used to build solar-power satellites and space habitats,[3][4] and water processed from ice to refuel orbiting propellant depots.[5][6][7]

In fact, all the gold, cobalt, iron, manganese, molybdenum, nickel, osmium, palladium, platinum, rhenium, rhodium, ruthenium, and tungsten mined from Earth's crust, and that are essential for economic and technological progress, came originally from the rain of asteroids that hit Earth after the crust cooled.[8][9][10] This is because although asteroids and Earth accreted from the same starting materials, Earth's relatively stronger gravity pulled all heavy siderophilic (iron-loving) elements into its core during its molten youth more than four billion years ago.[10] This left the crust depleted of such valuable elements[10] until asteroid impacts re-infused the depleted crust with metals (some flow from core to surface does occur, e.g. at the Bushveld Igneous Complex, a famously rich source of platinum-group metals).

As an example, an article I read indicated that it is possible that most or all the gold we have mined on Earth could have come from a single asteroid strike.  (All other earlier gold having sunk to the Earths core).

And some dialog in the below mentioned movie is exactly on as far as I am concerned.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sherlock_H … of_Shadows

Your clock... is ticking.

    You see...hidden within the unconscious is an insatiable desire for conflict. So you're not fighting me...so much as you are the human condition. All I want is to own the bullets and the bandages. War, on an industrial scale, is inevitable. They'll do it themselves, within a few years. All I have to do...is wait.

    Let's not waste anymore of each other's time...we both know how this ends.

Gold is manifested in the human mind, an illusion, which works, because almost everyone believes in it.  Which is pretty funny.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#153 2015-01-26 09:20:24

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Ceres

I do believe that metals in the core of Ceres will be much harder to get than metals in broken shards of asteroids, that can be crashed in a planned way into the ice of Ceres.

I think that at least America and likely much of the world is about to become much more materialistic and less spiritual (Due to privation).

We can consider risking an "Easter Island" scene, or go get that stuff, and be nicely well off.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#154 2015-01-30 08:45:03

Spaniard
Member
From: Spain
Registered: 2008-04-18
Posts: 73

Re: Ceres

Void wrote:

I do believe that metals in the core of Ceres will be much harder to get than metals in broken shards of asteroids, that can be crashed in a planned way into the ice of Ceres.

I think that at least America and likely much of the world is about to become much more materialistic and less spiritual (Due to privation).

We can consider risking an "Easter Island" scene, or go get that stuff, and be nicely well off.

Ceres and Vesta could be too big probably. Enough big to be differenciated, but too much to reach easily the core.
But it should be a optimal size where, although reach the core is difficult, the concentration inside is enough to justify to reach it.
The concentration of platinum elements of a differenciated body must be huge. It the asteroid is the correct type, even better.

"16 Psyche", the biggest M type asteroide, if differenciated, it must be incredible rich inside.

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#155 2015-01-30 09:05:28

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Ceres

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_Psyche

Radar observations indicate that Psyche has a fairly pure iron–nickel composition.[7][8] Unlike some other M-type asteroids, Psyche shows no sign of the presence of water or water-bearing minerals on its surface, consistent with its interpretation as a metallic body.[9] Small amounts of pyroxene appear to be present.[10]

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 … Muam4_na70

Psyche is about 200 kilometres across and is made of 90 per cent iron and nickel, with 10 per cent silicate rock.

http://www.space.com/24288-strange-meta … ssion.html

The huge metal asteroid Psyche may have a strong remnant magnetic field.

I guess that where I might prefer Ceres, is that I suppose that a metal chunk would dig into the surface, and perhaps it would be convenient to access it there.

If a Nuclear Fission rocket were the method of transport Earth<>Ceres, then Ceres offers water for that.  So Ceres may provide protection to miners.

If the Crust of Ceres is not too thick and the impacting object were of the correct size, then it might dig into the ice, and indeed melt a pocket in the ice, which may or may not be convenient.

Using special suits, that environment might be decent for humans to work the object and extract materials from it.  They would be protected from radiation, and their suits would experience 0 degrees Centigrade as the temperature.  A degree of pressurization would be experienced but not that much.

To go to small objects and mine them in place would take away those protections.

But 16 Psyche may have a residual magnetic field which might give radiation protection.  But it may not have much water for nuclear propulsion, so then propulsion would have to be solar of some kind I suppose.

Vesta, might be pretty good.  It has hydrated minerals, and it would be easier to reach it's core than Ceres, but there would be a lot of digging before the mother load was reached.  It would be an interesting world to build an extensive city inside of.

But I see Ceres as the starter, and the hub of an Asteroid mining operation.

Starting small with guided impacts, making money and building a treasury, and then moving additional operations to 16 Psyche and Vesta and so on as economically viable.

Imagine turning 16 Psyche into a hollow world with many chambers.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#156 2015-01-30 17:45:54

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Ceres

Spaniard wrote:
Void wrote:

I do believe that metals in the core of Ceres will be much harder to get than metals in broken shards of asteroids, that can be crashed in a planned way into the ice of Ceres.

I think that at least America and likely much of the world is about to become much more materialistic and less spiritual (Due to privation).

We can consider risking an "Easter Island" scene, or go get that stuff, and be nicely well off.

Ceres and Vesta could be too big probably. Enough big to be differenciated, but too much to reach easily the core.
But it should be a optimal size where, although reach the core is difficult, the concentration inside is enough to justify to reach it.
The concentration of platinum elements of a differenciated body must be huge. It the asteroid is the correct type, even better.

"16 Psyche", the biggest M type asteroide, if differenciated, it must be incredible rich inside.

I think digging to the core of Ceres is equivalent to the deepest mines ever dug on Earth.

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#157 2015-02-01 23:09:48

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Ceres

As for hollowing out all of Ceres, or rather using the material of Ceres to make a giant cylinder with an Earth like habitat inside.
fig0807.gif
The Sunflower design would be expanded to enormous proportions, as the outside mirrors don't rotate. the mirrors could be curved to concentrate sunlight onto the two hemispheres of this cylinder. On a larger scale, you wouldn't even need transparent windows in the middle part. You simply built walls that are 200 km high to keep atmosphere within the ends of the cylinder. Having huge sunflower mirrors can concentrate sunlight onto the inhabited sections with Earth normal intensity.

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#158 2015-02-02 09:08:19

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Ceres

Doing that I guess you could get at all the metals you wanted, if they were there.

So, what would you do with Mercury?  I know it is off topic.  Perhaps you could start a new one.  Mercury, in it's present orbit, translated into artificial habitat(s)?


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#159 2015-02-02 18:39:07

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Ceres

Void wrote:

Doing that I guess you could get at all the metals you wanted, if they were there.

So, what would you do with Mercury?  I know it is off topic.  Perhaps you could start a new one.  Mercury, in it's present orbit, translated into artificial habitat(s)?

Mercury is a source of building material
You know that Eris has a 25.9 hour day, it varies in its orbit from 37 AU to 97 AU with a semi-major axis of 67.7 AU. Maybe with Mercury material, we could build a Fresnel lens and shine some light on distant Eris for terraforming purposes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eris_(dwarf_planet)
There is some theories that their might be two more Earth sized planets out there or larger. It would be easier to concentrate light from Mercury's orbit than build a Fresnel lens closer, for one thing Eris L1 is going to be far out. I think Mercury could be used as a source of material for collecting and concentration Solar Energy, sending it from where it is plentiful to other parts of the Solar System where it is needed. The best way to deliver Solar Energy is by light wave, so all you need in Mercury's orbit are mirrors. A Fresnel lens is made up of mirrors by the way, they work as an array concentrating sunlight as a glass lens would Though I think a diffraction lens might work just as well, a telescope is going up which will use one of these. Ultimately there is enough material in Mercury to make a Dyson bubble, a type of Dyson shell which relies of radiation pressure to hold itself against gravity. A Dyson Shell would consist of a series of reflectors which would focus sunlight at the places it is needed, it would defocus sunlight away from Venus, focus sunlight on Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and the Dwarf planets so we can maximize the habitability of this Solar System.

th?id=HN.608051225051201844&w=139&h=104&c=7&rs=1&qlt=90&pid=3.1&rm=2
This is a Dyson Bubble, they are a series of statlite solar sails that are supported by radiation pressure in a spherical configuration, over time they can grow together to form a complete sphere around the Sun.
th?q=Matrioshka+Brain&w=100&h=100&c=1&rs=1&qlt=90&bw=1&bc=333333&pid=InlineBlock&mkt=en-US&adlt=off&t=1&mw=247
A Matrioshka Brain is another type of Dyson Sphere, at Gamma Crucis it can also be a Dyson Bubble., as the habitable zone of that red giant 88 light years away is at 37 AU, and with a mass of 1.3 solar masses, the radiation pressure  at 37 AU is the same as that of Sol at 1 AU, but the gravity is much weaker.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_Crucis
This star system is close enough that it might be visited by humans in the next millennium, at about 10% of the speed of light, which I think is fairly reasonable, it would take 880 years to reach Gamma Crucis. Once there a Dyson Bubble with the surface area of 1500 billion Earths can be constructed, and with a Matrioshka Brain, it would be possible to simulate every star system in the Galaxy, or at least the important parts that humans would consider inhabiting. There are an estimated 200 billion stars in the Milky way, so I think 1500 billion Earths worth of surface area ought to be enough to do this. We could even simulate the Earth and its Solar System if we like. If we transfer our minds to the Matrioshka Brain, and the Colonists could then be back on Earth, and not only that, whatever Earth they like, they could live on an Earth of the past for example.

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#160 2015-02-03 09:16:40

Terraformer
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From: Logres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,362
Website

Re: Ceres

However, the second singularity hyperturing -##, known to eir compatriots as Starlight Glimmers Eternal, has already set off for that in a conversion drive ship. By the time your group arrives, E will have converted the star into a Matrioshka brain for emself to use in an attempted ascension to the fourth toposophic.

Anyway, as far as nearbaseline technology goes, I don't believe in having colonies which are reliant upon energy being beamed to them from several dozen AU away. Starships, on the other hand, would benefit from large solar arrays at Mercury. Though I'm leery of having giant space lasers shooting around everywhere.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#161 2015-02-03 09:38:27

JoshNH4H
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From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,526
Website

Re: Ceres

You'd definitely want to restrict that kind of travel to outside the plane of the ecliptic


-Josh

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#162 2015-02-03 10:09:02

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Ceres

I guess where I was pointing was that since Tom was going to disassemble Ceres and make a giant habitat, why not do it to Mercury?

A harder task to get materials into orbit.  I presume a electromagnetic launch system would be the way, if possible.

Granted it is hot in Mercury's orbit, but it is also abundant with energy.

I am of the mind that likely there are volatile materials in the materials of Mercury, so perhaps no such will have to be imported.  It is thought that the poles may have ice caps, or some kind of caps.

As I have thought about it, I think that an economic case could be made for it.  The economy would consist of selling real estate to humans, most likely from Earth.

Yes we could tear the Moon apart, but I don't think it would be wise.

I am just wondering how much real estate Mercury could yield.

It is mostly a core if I understand, and should have lots of metals.

Making the habitats local to the orbit of Mercury makes sense to me.  Keeping them cool enough should not be that hard.


If you had a ring of habitats around the sun, solar propulsion should be just fine for communication of materials and people between them.

I also see that for a temporary fix of the reported global warming (If it is real and bad), a Dyson Sphere method of shading the Earth a bit could help.

And then there is a problem which really is not my problem or yours, but supposedly eventually the sun will get hotter and make Earth not habitable in the future far off.

Well if you are taking Mercury apart, and making habitats that shade the Earth, then problem solved. 

Problem solved until the sun becomes a red giant, but I don't plan to have insomnia over that issue.

Last edited by Void (2015-02-03 10:21:56)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#163 2015-02-03 11:24:14

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Ceres

One could use Mercury to build a giant solar powered space laser and accelerate a light sail to 10% of the speed on light on a 880 year cruise to Gamma Crucis, that red giant I mentioned. The red Giant puts out a lot of light at 37 AUs it puts out as much light per meter squared as the Sun, at 74 AU it puts out a quarter of that amount. So what do you think, is there enough light to slow down a light sail coming in at 10% of the speed of light, it's that's not enough, red giants also out gas, it should have a thick stellar wind for slowing down.

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#164 2015-10-14 13:34:12

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Ceres

Stumbled on this:
Ceres:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 105955.htm

A new set of high-velocity impact experiments suggests that the dwarf planet Ceres may be something of a cosmic dartboard: Projectiles that slam into it tend to stick.


The experiments, performed using the Vertical Gun Range at NASA's Ames Research Center, suggest that when asteroids and other impactors hit Ceres, much of the impact material remains on the surface instead of bouncing off into space. The findings suggest the surface of Ceres could consist largely of a mish-mash of meteoritic material collected over billions of years of bombardment.

So meteoritic material suggests to me a mix of materials, a chemistry lab for industrial activity.  Nice!

Actually under those circumstances I might prefer the "Porous Silicate" model to the "Ice Layer" model, since the surface materials should contain water that can be baked out.  (Metals also) smile

Last edited by Void (2015-10-14 13:38:42)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#165 2020-08-10 17:46:26

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: Ceres

For Terraformer re topic ... I found an update on results from the recent flyby of Ceres ...

Unfortunately, my (ancient) system locked up as I was trying to prepare the update, so I lost the link.

It shouldn't be too hard for you to find.  It was relatively recent, and it included insight that there appears to be a great deal of unfrozen water inside the asteroid.

Edit#1 ... there were numerous citations ... here's one:
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/08 … Position=1

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-08-10 17:53:27)

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#166 2020-08-10 17:59:16

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,099

Re: Ceres

https://nineplanets.org/asteroids/

Ceres, a dwarf planet in the asteroid belt, hides an underground ocean

The discovery of liquids hints that Ceres, the closest dwarf planet to Earth, may have been a habitable world and raises the possibility that these types of worlds may harbor life. It was a surprise that the old ocean is not completely frozen. One study found, as Castillo-Rogez puts it, a "smoking gun": hydrohalite. Hydrohalite is composed of sodium chloride -- sea salt -- surrounded by water molecules. Using images obtained by Dawn's infrared mapping device, a team of Italian and US researchers found the unmistakable infrared signal of hydrohalite.

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#167 2020-08-10 19:47:53

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Ceres

That is very interesting.
One way for such oceans to remain liquid, is impactors themselves.
I did read the article about a Sea(s).
I started looking into the relationship between Jupiter and the asteroids, gravitationainally.
Phallas has a synchronous relationship with Jupiter.  I then was looking at if Ceres would have such.  No actually, not on the surface anyway.  But consider that salty oceans will conduct electricity and might generater a counter EMF to that of the solar wind.
Generally, I have thought that for an object to obtain energy from the solar wind, the solar wind would have to fluctuate.  An AC primary to secondary transformer type situation.
But then I remembered that the solar wind also has a sort of DC component, as it spirals out to the boundries of our solar plasma bubble.  It seems real to me that Ceres not moving identical to the DC component of the solar wind, then must cut magnetic lines as it travels through the solar wind flux.
Without Jupiter and the other asteroids, and perhaps the influence of the whole solar system, then Ceres must migrate under the influcence of the solar wind, provided that electrical currents are induced in the salty liquids of it's seas.  However, there is the whole rest of the bulk of the asteroid belt, and how the other planets particularly Jupiter will influence a migration of Ceres per it's orbit.  So, then I think that under these conditions, unlike the four main Jovian Moons, and their resonence.  It may be possible that Ceres, is a captive between opposing forces, the gravitation of other objects, and the solar wind.  In that case, it might be reasonable to not expect a resonant number for it's orbit relative to the orbit of Jupiter and other objects.
I don't have the intellectual powers to calculate for evidence that this might be true.
Stealth posting.  No spell checking yet.  You get what you get.
Oh, another thing, their are microbes that feed directly off of electrical currents on Earth.  In the case of Ceres, even if the main seas were so salty and cold that they prohibited active life, I anticipate that there could be locations where signigicant electrical currants could not only feed microbes, but also warm up a local environment.  Or give them enough energy resources to combat excessive salty and cold conditions.  Just speculation.
This is a sort of example: https://phys.org/news/2019-10-microbes- … nergy.html
There are other things like it but not the same.
Done


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#168 2020-08-11 07:25:04

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,326

Re: Ceres

Nice follow ups !!! Thanks !!!

For SpaceNut re #166 (citation)

For Void re introduction of interesting ideas about possible influence of the Solar wind on asteroids. 

It should probably not be surprising if the space agencies of one or more Nations decide to investigate further with a Ceres lander!

That is a long term project, of course, but one that would certainly be rewarding as scientific knowledge, and quite likely encouraging of entrepreneurial activities at some point next century.

(th)

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#169 2020-08-12 11:22:50

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Ceres

Pluto and Ceres?

I do not assert proof, rather I place questions for which answers would be valuable.
Here is a cleaner example of what I think "Could" be possible.
https://www.everythingselectric.com/orb … and-pluto/
Pluto is in a 2/3 resonance with Neptune.  Neptune I presume being the heavy weight obviously.  And I expect that Neptune is kept rather stable by a balance of other gravity wells orbiting, and pehaps the solar wind.
This;
https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … n-does-not
makes a point.  Although Pluto may or may not have a rocky molten core, it is thought that it does have at least a ocean/sea(s).  Those most likely are electrically conductive by way disolved ions of salt and perhaps other things.  It may also be partially Ammonia.  I don't know of course.
But this is a clean example of what I am thinking of.  Pluto is locked in it's orbital place, mostly by Neptune.  The tidal flexing of Pluto will be infrequent, so not a great contibutor to the internal warmpth of Pluto.  But I will speculate that by being held in this gravitational lock, it shoud have a different relative motion than that of the solar wind.
I Pluto is, in part, a conductor cutting magnetic lines of force of the solar wind, I would speculate that electric currents will be generated in the seas, generating waste heat, and just possibly feeding energy to possible life in some locations of these seas.
Here is some more reading for Neptune resonance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonant_ … population.
If what I am thinking is true, not all resonant objects would significantly have induced electrical flows.   Perhaps only those that might have significant conductors built into there atmospheres, and/or interiors.  Those might be ~salt water and perhaps metalic cores of objects.
-------
Back to Ceres.  Pallas is dominated by near with Jupiter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Pallas
Near orbital resonance with Jupiter and Ceres it would seem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Pallas#Near_resonances
Quote(s)

Near resonances
Pallas is in a, likely coincidental, near-1:1 orbital resonance with Ceres.[41] Pallas also has a near-18:7 resonance (91,000-year period) and an approximate 5:2 resonance (83-year period) with Jupiter.[42]

OK, that is enough to speculate on.  I would not be surprised if orbital resenence of large asteroids might be "Muddy".  We have the masses of the whole asteroid belt, Jupiter, and also the trojan asteroids that will tend to muddy up any resonaces.  Probably other planets are of much lesser influences.
But here again I would suggest, that the orbits of some asteroids may be held in a "Rubbery" vice by Jupiter and several swarms of asteroids.   So, it could be possible that objects with conductive portions would cut magnetic lines of force of the solar wind flow.  This might generate electrical currents within, and if it is of a significant magnitude, might add heat to some of them.
If this is true, then this could be a feature of other solar systems as well.
Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#171 2021-06-11 20:04:32

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 885

Re: Ceres

NASA readies its Asteroid Redirect Mission to prepare for Mars trips
https://betawired.com/nasa-readies-its- … ars-trips/

old article

The Long and Storied Path to Human Asteroid Exploration
https://www.nasa.gov/topics/history/fea … roids.html

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#172 2021-06-11 20:45:14

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,099

Re: Ceres

Without nuclear power Nasa realized as it was planning its back to the moon and mars that it could not do it, so it changed it to a bolder retrieval, which then led to the lunar gateway that we currently have some of the ISS partners in with but its still a far of future state....

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#173 2021-06-28 09:04:25

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 885

Re: Ceres

I don't think Asteroids might ever be Terraformed in the near or medium future, maybe one day Belts could make money off them as scifi movies and fanatsy tv shows. It's in our minds with our scifi entertainment, writers like Orson Scott Card, Stephen Baxter, Buck Rogers Marvel DC Comics, the Star Trek franchise, the video games and HG Wells and Isaac Asimov books and others have hinted at and people like Zurbin and others before talked of the real world potentials of Asteroid and Minor Planet resources. A lot of this science is possible but still hypothetical, the idea to explore and use resources in space, an exploitation of materials from asteroids and other minor planets, a company called Planetary Resources had an idea for Asteroid mining they launched a Arkyd-6 CubeSat a company Deep Space Industries said it would mine Asteroids, both the Europeans and Japanese have landed on Asteroids or Comets... it is possible to live there in theory, perhaps.
Could we survive on an asteroid, a Minor Planet now? I'm not sure for now Mars looks like the much better option.


Space expansionism, geopolitics, and the future of humanity
https://www.aei.org/economics/space-exp … l-deudney/

Rocket-M a mining demonstration

https://hooktube.com/watch?v=1GV755adv08

https://yewtu.be/watch?v=1GV755adv08

Asteroid Mining: A Way to Get Very Rich?
https://www.realclearscience.com/2021/0 … _fragment_

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-06-28 09:21:48)

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