Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

Palomar · 2005-04-26 06:31:40

It certainly isn't my intention to defend Doctor Mengele, I'm as apalled by what he did as you are. But at the same time, some of his experimenting did produce useful data and to discard it simply doesn't make sense to me.
But then, if the Devil himself handed me the cure for cancer I'd have no qualms about using it freely either.

*I know you weren't/aren't defending Mengele.

I see your point (and Shaun's)...I'm just reluctant to agree is all.

It seems to somehow justify how the knowledge was obtained. Maybe I'm wrong on that...it's just such a tough issue.

Shaun said:

No one can do anything now to help the poor souls Mengele tortured in the name of medical science all those years ago, but their suffering is not for nothing if something good can be done with the data.

I see that point as well...but again, my reluctance to agree. Would like to know how survivors of the Holocaust feel about this issue. There were children under Mengele's "care" who survived; I read a book about their experiences, entitled Children of the Flame. I read it many years ago, and can't recall if they pointedly commented on the issue we're discussing here and, if so, how they felt about the use of information Mengele obtained. If they'd be okay with the results of their unintended and unwilling suffering inadvertently helping others, perhaps some of my hesitation would be diminished.

--Cindy

Trebuchet · 2005-04-26 07:55:13

It might feel morally tainted, but the data are just data, neutral in and of themselves. The proper response is to remember the crime and seek to prevent future Mengeles and the sorts of twisted totalitarianisms that allow such people to act freely.

srmeaney · 2005-04-26 21:08:55

repeat post...sorry

srmeaney · 2005-04-26 21:26:50

How about one of you daring pro-Marsies do the rounds and see if NASA is interested in funding and deploying a nicely engraved cargo block with two hundred storage lockers to Mars. Each locker door engraved with some culturaly significant image, idea or ad (with the generic $10,000.00 fee). All they have to do is define size and shape of the locker doors for small sponsors and cultural groups and perhaps a major corporate sponsor engraved on the outside paneling for that extra twenty million.

srmeaney · 2005-04-26 21:34:53

Do you have a direct link to the page you claim is glossing over NASA history?

Actually it was a short term page pitching the centennials to school kids. Lost track of it. Sorry. Can no longer back it up with solid proof. It was linked an encouragement for students interested in working on exotic propulsion systems at Marshall space flight centre.

It might feel morally tainted, but the data are just data, neutral in and of themselves. The proper response is to remember the crime and seek to prevent future Mengeles and the sorts of twisted totalitarianisms that allow such people to act freely.

And yet when it came to the data pulled in by the NAZI's in relation to survival of humans in cold water, modern scientists shredded the results and redid them with with volunteers rather than prisoners.

But there is more at work here than the rantings of a conspiracy phsychotic. Maybe more than a little jealousy?

Hardly. I regard NASA as equally as I regarded the Soviet space program. With Interest, followed by disapointment, culminating in disgust for any government that cuts funding for spaceships in favour of bullets, bombs and War profits.

Cobra Commander · 2005-04-27 05:29:20

I regard NASA as equally as I regarded the Soviet space program. With Interest, followed by disapointment, culminating in disgust for any government that cuts funding for spaceships in favour of bullets, bombs and War profits.

Funny you should say that. See, you remind of the Soviets, the early idealistic ones. All this talk of fairness, justice, equality and the like. . . to be accomplished by an over-reaching government entity that somehow magically avoids the corruption that befell its predecessor while retaining some self-granted moral authority to brutally put down any opposition.

It's funny, except for all the bodies.

Fledi · 2005-04-27 08:51:42

Von Braun did not just know about the slave laborers, but he even saw them at work.
All these things must have bothered him a lot, though. After the first successful test-launches of the V2 he once went into the target area to see if his rocket would destroy him for all the evil things that were happening because of it.
I think that NASA and the Russian space program would have happened anyway, maybe a few years later without von Brauns team.
Some of the theoretical work was actually done by people like Oberth and Hohmann in the 20s before the nazis seized power.

srmeaney · 2005-04-29 10:21:33

Funny you should say that. See, you remind of the Soviets, the early idealistic ones. All this talk of fairness, justice, equality and the like. . . to be accomplished by an over-reaching government entity that somehow magically avoids the corruption that befell its predecessor while retaining some self-granted moral authority to brutally put down any opposition.

You wish.
And if the NAZI's had never happened, Europe would have been a state of the Soviet union and We would all be reading about how the Soviets built a base on the moon in '82 and how their new Mars colony was just zipping along...
Of course, they would have used that german nuclear technology to secure the oil fields of Arabia for use by the soviet economy and the rest of us would be driving our Acetelyne engine cars and discussing whether a computer (is that what the russian fellow called it?) would enrich our lives.

Cobra Commander · 2005-04-29 10:35:42

You wish.
And if the NAZI's had never happened, Europe would have been a state of the Soviet union and We would all be reading about how the Soviets built a base on the moon in '82 and how their new Mars colony was just zipping along...

So. . . are you reacting negatively to my comparison of you to the Soviets or my implied criticism of the Soviets? It sounds to me like you're quite enamored of that late totalitarian state.

A straight answer on that point is the first step in real discussion on this. In the interest of honesty of course. :;):

Edited By Cobra Commander on 1114792565

srmeaney · 2005-04-29 11:23:24

A straight answer on that point is the first step in real discussion on this. In the interest of honesty of course.

In propaganda, it is never what they leave in that is of interest, It is the bits they cut out.

ps where is your suggestion for Creightons Mars Colonization game? It wont be worth while if you cant hijack a space ship and crash a moon into the surface.

Palomar · 2005-04-29 11:30:18

A straight answer on that point is the first step in real discussion on this. In the interest of honesty of course.
In propaganda, it is never what they leave in that is of interest, It is the bits they cut out.

*True.

And your Galactic Commonwealth will be free of propoganda, no doubt.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-04-29 11:32:44

In propaganda, it is never what they leave in that is of interest, It is the bits they cut out.
ps where is your suggestion for Creightons Mars Colonization game? It wont be worth while if you cant hijack a space ship and crash a moon into the surface.

I'd say that answers the question satisfactorily.

Soy'ooz neroosh'imi resp'ooblik svob'odnikh
Splot'ila nav'eki vel'ikaia Rus
--C'mon, you know the words--
Da zdr'avstvooyet sozdanni voley nar'odov
Yed'ini mog'oochi Sov'etski Soy'ooz. . .

:;):

srmeaney · 2005-04-29 11:58:43

And your Galactic Commonwealth will be free of propoganda, no doubt.
--Cindy

No, FOX News will not be there preaching patriotism and loyalty to the regime...

Soy'ooz neroosh'imi resp'ooblik svob'odnikh
Splot'ila nav'eki vel'ikaia Rus
--C'mon, you know the words--
Da zdr'avstvooyet sozdanni voley nar'odov
Yed'ini mog'oochi Sov'etski Soy'ooz. . .

NO. But I have always enjoyed the version sung by Sean Connery in Hunt for Red october...

Palomar · 2005-04-29 13:19:19

And your Galactic Commonwealth will be free of propoganda, no doubt.
--Cindy
No, FOX News will not be there preaching patriotism and loyalty to the regime...

*I wouldn't know, as I don't watch FOX news often.

To be blunt, your Galactic Commonwealth isn't any better than the worst of U.S. policies.

You won't need FOX news, as I'm sure you'll have your own propoganda machine to impress loyalty and patriotism onto your regime.

Since you're apparently so prejudiced/bigoted in your views of Americans, it's a mystery why you bother speaking with us. Are we supposed to thank you for the "favor"?

--Cindy

P.S.: Rupert Murdoch, the owner of the FOX cable network, isn't an American. In fact, doesn't he hail from your neck of the woods?

srmeaney · 2005-04-29 13:44:35

To be blunt, your Galactic Commonwealth isn't any better than the worst of U.S. policies.

depends on whether you feel that the Mars Commonwealth should have a secret police with the ability to provide false witness against you, drag you from your bed without warrant, stick you in an interrogation room for an indeterminant amount of time, and encourage you to confess to something you didn't do.

While I am an advocate of abandoning old bidies on a glacier when they start foaming at the mouth, I am yet too disinterested to practice what I preach. :;):

Fledi · 2005-04-29 18:22:39

Hmm smearney living a few years under communist rule would surely fix your attitude towards that system.

A propos computers, it was refused to build things like that in the eastern block for a long time because of it being a "decadent capitalist invention".
When they finally found out about it's capabilites they bagan building the world's largest microchips with electronic engineers paid by the kilogram of materials used.

Luckily I've only seen the end of it where everyone was caring a damn about the government in Hungary.
But I've heard enough about the not so funny parts of that system from my parents.
What we have now is certainly far from being perfect but it's still much better than communism was.

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#26 2005-04-26 06:31:40

Re: Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

#27 2005-04-26 07:55:13

Re: Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

#28 2005-04-26 21:08:55

Re: Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

#29 2005-04-26 21:26:50

Re: Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

#30 2005-04-26 21:34:53

Re: Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

#31 2005-04-27 05:29:20

Re: Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

#32 2005-04-27 08:51:42

Re: Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

#33 2005-04-29 10:21:33

Re: Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

#34 2005-04-29 10:35:42

Re: Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

#35 2005-04-29 11:23:24

Re: Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

#36 2005-04-29 11:30:18

Re: Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

#37 2005-04-29 11:32:44

Re: Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

#38 2005-04-29 11:58:43

Re: Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

#39 2005-04-29 13:19:19

Re: Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

#40 2005-04-29 13:44:35

Re: Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

#41 2005-04-29 18:22:39

Re: Should NASA be honest about its Founding Fathers - A NASA built by NAZI scientists & Tech

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