Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

dicktice · 2004-05-19 09:39:53

Very much my thoughts regarding Mars and Venus, only I'd like the "probe people" to start now on the floating, sample flyback probe (with adequate safeguards), since that shouldn't affect the Mars program. Terraforming the surface of Venus always turned me off, but floating habitats above the clouds, and all the volatiles we need already there, with no pressurization required at 50 km, seems made to order. Could be exciting, so why not?

atitarev · 2004-05-19 17:07:58

Very much my thoughts regarding Mars and Venus, only I'd like the "probe people" to start now on the floating, sample flyback probe (with adequate safeguards), since that shouldn't affect the Mars program. Terraforming the surface of Venus always turned me off, but floating habitats above the clouds, and all the volatiles we need already there, with no pressurization required at 50 km, seems made to order. Could be exciting, so why not?

Maybe to get any terraforming of Venus started people need to be on or around it first. The plan is great. They eventually get sick of floating and think how to make Venus a better home, so they can walk on the ground too.

To REB.

I want to see most planets terraformed, or at least paraterraformed and colonized. Venus might number 3 after Mars and the Moon(!) or number 4 after one of the Jovian moons (Callisto, Ganymede or both). It might be Mercury after Venus. Sooner or later Venus will be terraformed, it's too close, too big to be ignored for long.

dicktice · 2004-05-20 12:32:55

Atitarev, wrote: [Venus is] too close and too big to be ignored for long.
Well, how about now? The waiting time between Mars probes could be alieviated with simultaneous Venus floating atmospheric probes, instrumented for surface feature radar survey, air and cloud constituent sample and analysis, eventual microbe sample and return (with safeguards). Why wait? We're able to do more than one thing at a time probewise, aren't we?

Rxke · 2004-05-20 13:31:28

money, money, money.

Besides GWB has set other priorities.

atitarev · 2004-05-20 16:54:54

Atitarev, wrote: [Venus is] too close and too big to be ignored for long.
Well, how about now? The waiting time between Mars probes could be alieviated with simultaneous Venus floating atmospheric probes, instrumented for surface feature radar survey, air and cloud constituent sample and analysis, eventual microbe sample and return (with safeguards). Why wait? We're able to do more than one thing at a time probewise, aren't we?

That's right! Not up to me, though

chat · 2004-05-20 18:01:14

I think all that we will discover from trying to teraform Mars, is how hard it will resist teraforming.

Dropping either of the moons at Mars out of stable orbit to impact Mars, would be a quick solution to teraforming it.

Even a fully teraformed mars will be a permanent project to try and keep it warm.

I think Venus is the only true place we will teraform.
Once Venus is cooled and wet it should be pretty stable.

Mars will be like a nasty radioactive polar planet for many thousands of years, even with the best ideas of teraforming it.

All the other places for colonization in our solar system are either so nasty or so cold, they seem like places for outposts only.

Even Mars might resist teraforming so much that it ends up as simply a small underground colony.

I guess if we ever make it to the stars we better learn how to teraform both Mars and Venus.
Not to many earth like planets will be at the stars, so we better get used to how to alter a planet for our needs.

atitarev · 2004-05-20 20:28:38

I think all that we will discover from trying to teraform Mars, is how hard it will resist teraforming.
Dropping either of the moons at Mars out of stable orbit to impact Mars, would be a quick solution to teraforming it.
Even a fully teraformed mars will be a permanent project to try and keep it warm.
I think Venus is the only true place we will teraform.
Once Venus is cooled and wet it should be pretty stable.
Mars will be like a nasty radioactive polar planet for many thousands of years, even with the best ideas of teraforming it.
All the other places for colonization in our solar system are either so nasty or so cold, they seem like places for outposts only.
Even Mars might resist teraforming so much that it ends up as simply a small underground colony.
I guess if we ever make it to the stars we better learn how to teraform both Mars and Venus.
Not to many earth like planets will be at the stars, so we better get used to how to alter a planet for our needs.

I wouldn't downplay Mars, even if this thread is about Venus. Mars is still the "easiest" to terraform. Even the Moon might turn out easier to terraform than Venus.

I support the teraformation of both planets, if it were possible in parallel, not one after the other. There will be benefits, not only costs if terraforming starts in more than one place at a time.

I agree that terraformable planets are few but in my list of terraformable or paraterraformable planets I have: Mars, the Moon, Venus, Ganymede, Callisto, Mercury and maybe even Titan. Even outposts could be quite big. We could settle both large areas around poles on Mercury where there are deposits of ice.

chat · 2004-05-22 05:29:38

atitarev,

Quite a few places exist in our solar system that are candidates for teraforming.

Venus is the only one that requires a planet alteration to settle.

All the other places that could be teraformed also could have a dome placed on them, and be colonized without teraforming them.

My thought is that this will probably happen on most semi hostile places in our solar system that have a value.

But places that are -200c like titan and beyond will have to offer a reason to even have an outpost.
It will be an expensive venture to have even an outpost on a place.
Even on earth on the south pole it is a hostile place, and few visit it.

If we have to teraform we probably will, be if we don't have to, we probably wont.

Mars is ready for colonization now, so teraforming it seems a reason without a problem, same for the moon and mercury.

dicktice · 2004-05-22 10:29:07

money, money, money.
Besides GWB has set other priorities.

Why must every program have to "pay off"? Especially the initial conceptual planning, which is what the new approach to Venus atmosphere colonization is all about. Really good ideas, like Mars First, take on a life of their own. Let's have no more "money, money, money" objections. That's just copping out, when you haven't a clue or are unable to contemplate mental work without being paid a salary for it. It would be like the Wright Brothers charging time for thinking up their flying machine, even before they knew such a thing were possible, in 1900! There are no professionals in the business of human colonization of space, and until there are, it should be cost-free.

Rxke · 2004-05-22 11:33:41

Heehee, Dicktice, 200% agree with you!

I thought you asked why the *governments* didn't do things like that... (tandem etc)

The 'net, though at times seriously bogged down with 'noise' is a powerful tool in accompllishing projects that would've been all ut impossible before. Rally grassroots movements, send blueprints nearly instantaneously around the world, thinktanks etc...

Venusfirst? Hmmm... Though i have 'issues' with that, (the 'first' part, heehee...) I'm sure there is a tremendeous amount of ideas, waiting to get 'assembled' and eventually implemented.

Now, how does one set up a free messageboard?

Mundaka · 2004-05-22 14:52:59

dicktice · 2004-05-23 12:34:57

Mundaka, et al: The idea of terraforming Venus is unnessary, if we just want to live there. The atmosphere, it appears, is already the most suitable environment for immediate human habitation within the Solar System, outside of Earth. I found this out by Googling a 2003 report: "Colonization of Venus," by Geoffrey A. Landis. I suggest that planning to colonize Venus, therefore, be taken on by a second team, simultaneously with the "Mars First" program. Here are some excerpts from the above mentioned report to justify this suggestion.

VENUS EXPLORATION
In many ways Venus is the hell planet. . . .
* Surface temperature 735K [662C]: lead, tin, and zinc melt at surface, with hot spots in excess of 975K
* Atmospheric pressure 96 bar (1300 PSI) ; similar to pressure at a depth of a kilometer under the ocean
* The surface is cloud covered; with little or no solar energy
* Poisonous atmosphere of primarily carbon dioxide, with nitrogen and clouds of sulfuric acid droplets
However, viewed in a different way, the problem with Venus is merely that the ground level is too far below the one atmosphere level. At cloud-top level, Venus is the paradise planet, at an altitue slightly above fifty km above the surface, the atmosphere pressure is equal to the Earth surface atmosphere pressure of 1 bar. At this level, the environment of Venus is benign.
* Above the clouds, there is abundant solar energy
* Temperature is in the habitable "liquid water" range of 0-50C
* Atmosphere contains the primary volatile elements required for life (Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Sulfur)
* Gravity is 90% of the gravity at the surface of Earth
While the atmosphere contains droplets of sulfuric acid, technology to avoid acid corrosion are well known, and have been use by chemists for centuries.
In short, the atmosphere of Venus is the most earthlike environment in the solar system. Although humans cannot breathe the atmosphere, pressure vessls are not required to maintain one atmosphere of habitat pressure, and pressure suits are not required for humans outside the habitat.
It is proposed here that in the near term, human exploration of Venus could take place from aerostat vehicles in the atmosphere, and that in the long term, permanent settlements could be made in the form of cities designed to float at about fifty kilometer altitude in the atmosphere of Venus.
IS FLOATING DIFFICULT?
On Venus, breathable air (i.e. oxygen/nitrogen mixture at roughly 21:78 mixture ration) is a lifting gas. The lifting power of breathable air in the carbon dioxide atmosphere of Venus is about .5 kg per cubic meter. Since air is a lifting gas on Venus: the entire lifting envelope of an aerostat can be breathable gas, allowing the full volume of the aerostat to be habitable volume. For comparison, on Earth, helium lifts about 1 kg per cubic meter, so a given volume of air on Venus will lift about half as much as the same volume of helium will lift on Earth.
SETTLING VENUS
The thick atmosphere of Venus provides about 1 kilogram per square centimeter of mass shielding from galactic cosmic radiation and from solar particle event radiation, eliminating a key difficulty in many other proposed space settlement locations. The gravity, slightly under 1 Earth gravity, is likely to be sufficient to prevent the adverse affects of microgravity. At roughly 1 atmosphere of pressure, a habitat in the atmosphere will not require a high-strength pressure vessel.
Humans would still require provision of oxygen, which is mostly absent from the Venusian atmosphere, but in other respects the environment is perfect for humans (although on the habitat exterior humans would still require sufficient clothing to avoid direct skin exposure to aerosol droplets).
For objects the size of cities, [the fact that the entire breathable envelope can be lifting gas] represents an enormous amount of lifting power. A 1 kilometer diameter spherical envelope will lift 700,000 tons (2 Empire state buildings). A 2 kilometer diameter envelope would lift 6 million tons. So, if the settlement is contained in an envelope containing oxygen and nitrogen the size of a modest city, the amount of mass which can be lifted will be, in fact, large enough that it could also hold the mass of a modest city. The result would be an environment a spacious as a typical city.
The lifting envelope does not need to hold a significant pressure differential. Since at the altitudes of interest the external pressure is nearly 1 bar, atmospheric pressure inside the envelope would be the same as the pressure outside. With 0 pressure differential between interior and exterior, even a rather large tear in the envelope would be the same as the pressure outside. The envelope material itself would be a rip-stop material, with high-strength tension elements to carry the load [and] even a rather large tear in the envelope would take thousands of hours to leak significant amount of gas, allowing ample time for repair. (For safty, the envelope would also consist of several individual units).
Solar power is abundant in the atmosphere of Venus, and, in fact, solar arrays can produce nearly as much power pointing downward (toward the reflective clouds) as they produce pointing toward the sun. The Venus solar day, 116.8 terrestrial days, is extremely long; however, the atmospheric winds circle the planet much more rapidly, rotating around the planet in four days. Thus, on the habitat, the effective solar "night" would be roughly fifty hours, and the solar "day" the same. [. . .] If the habitat is licated at high latitudes, the day and night duration could be shortened toward a 24-hour cycle.
Finally, with surface area 3.1 times the land area of Earth, Venus has plenty of room. A billion habitats, each one with a population of hundreds of thousands of humans, could be placed afloat in the Venus atmosphere.
CONCLUSION
In the long term, permanet settlements could be made in the form of cities designed to float at about fifty kilometer altitude in the atmosphere of Venus. The advantages of the Venus atmosphere over other proposed space selltement locations includes and abundance of atmospheric volatiles, suficient for life support, benigh temperarture and pressure, shielding from cosmic and solar-flare radiation, plentiful solar energy, and nearby access to the rocky (silicate) surface materials.

I hereby suggest the program be dubbed, not "Venus Second," but: "Venus Too."
Petty cute, eh?

Rxke · 2004-05-23 14:44:06

Hmmm... I recall a novel (series?) named Venus Prime.

I would, in any case not choose Venus Second, sounds too much 'back-burnerish'

Venus Castles in the Sky? Hmmm... sounds too dreamy, prhaps...

Venus Mile High Club?

dicktice, I'm not making fun of you, really not, just brainstorming (wich says enough of the current status of my gray cells, I'm afraid )

You have to come up with a *really* good name, catchy for the tech-heads and the general public alike, that's fiendishly difficult.

chat · 2004-05-24 04:24:35

dicktice,

The more i look at cloud city at Venus, the more sense it makes.

At first glance it looks like a strange idea.
But when you start looking into the facts of actually doing a city in the clouds, it starts to become a no brainer.

It brings up the same idea as domed mars structures, but for Venus.
If you don't have to teraform, then why try to teraform.

Now wouldn't that be an alien view from the city, yet a familiar one.

chat · 2004-05-24 04:28:34

Rxke,

*lol*
The mile high club would take on new meaning at venus

MarsDog · 2004-05-26 00:03:57

Sulfuric acid clouds drifting by and molten metal below;
The Devil with the pitchfork and his helpers are waiting, ready to poke any sinner sent to Venus.
-
Let robot controlled balloons do it. Shoot all the atmosphere to Mars and solve the problem for both planets at once.

atitarev · 2004-05-26 07:46:21

Sulfuric acid clouds drifting by and molten metal below;
The Devil with the pitchfork and his helpers are waiting, ready to poke any sinner sent to Venus.
-
Let robot controlled balloons do it. Shoot all the atmosphere to Mars and solve the problem for both planets at once.

The excess atmosphere on Venus is enough for all colonizable solid planets/moons in the solar system, not just Mars, and there still will be leftover to distroyed (maybe on Jupiter). There's just too much of it and we can't let it go into space, in case it gets pulled by Earth and we end up with Venusian atmosphere

http://www.norre.net/terraforming/terra … erraformed Mars and Venus maps

dicktice · 2004-05-26 09:21:52

The mile high club, on Venus, would indeed take on new meaning as "the fifty klick high club."
But seriously, terraforming every thing in sight would seem counterproductive, if all that's wanted is to live in safety and comfort on any planet or satellite we choose. Just do what is necessary with what we find, and enjoy each unique habitat for what it is. So, Luna becomes riddled with underground cities, while Venus has floating cloud cities, and Mars has canyon cities--each having been "adapted-to" by us according to its particular hazards. Let's face it: It could turn out that Earth, itself, is totally unique, out there where we're going to want to live!

MarsDog · 2004-05-26 12:39:06

In places Earth is not comfortable; far removed from the relative comfort of the Rain Forest.
Too hot, too cold, poisonous gasses, etc.
-
With considerable effort, the Rain Forest has been approximated inside our dwellings.
Same will happen elsewhere, but with a lot more technology.

Mundaka · 2004-05-28 04:06:29

mbastion · 2004-05-30 22:35:40

Hi,

Mars can't be terraformed, Venus can.
You might want to check out my webpage:

http://www.geocities.com/alt_cosmos/ind … index.html

Enjoy
Michael

dicktice · 2004-05-31 08:23:59

Mbastion: I'm left in awe of your webpage, having just given it a brief perusal. I'll have to refer to it often before going out on a limb in my posts, from now on. But. regarding Venus: What do you have to say about the cloudcity concept (see Terraforming Venus) as a shorter-term alternative to surface terraformation (assuming you want live to see, and even participate, in the beginnings of space migration there)?

dicktice · 2004-05-31 08:40:55

mundaka: A new Venus topic might divert attention. needs more discussion, now that I/we know how to go about it. But my expectation has always been to utilize whatever is available interplanetarily, including off-planet space colonies, in order to escape get away from "Cradle Earth' asap. It's just that until recently I wasn't aware of the possibility offered by Venus to inhabit its atmosphere, I've been pushing it. Treating space exploration planet by planet, seems to be the wrong way to go about it, with small teams operating rovers. A lot more can be done simultaneously by additional teams, on other planets and moons and asteroids starting right here, like this. Back soon.

mbastion · 2004-06-01 00:59:39

Hi,

>What do you have to say about the cloudcity concept

The best of the ideas so far, but very risky. How windy is it in the upper atmosphere?
A strong gust of wind or rising CO2 thermal could flip, or roll a cloud city so it would have to be tethered or have a counter weight far below. Also, a short downflow could briefly throw it into the lower, denser atmosphere and crust it, so the floaters would have to be made of a strong material, resistant to warping at high-temperatures, resistant to sulfuric acid, but not to heavy as to drag the whole thing to the surface. Finding the right material might be a problem. Nitrogen and Helium would be the best combination for the floaters, as Oxygen is highly flammable. Are there jet-streams in the upper atmosphere of venus? Being hit by a jet-stream would probably tear a cloud-city apart. I'd also be worried about cosmic radiation, being in the upper atmosphere. Oxygen would not be a problem as the technology already exists to ionise CO2 into O2 and Carbon (at low pressures). The excess Carbon could be packaged (so as to not combust with the build up of O2 later) and dropped to the surface like garbage. Water might be an issue as the planet has a serious shortage of Hydrogen.

I've also considered the idea of small, low density spheres that float at a height of 3 earth-standard atmospheres. They would be highly-reflective (albedo >0.9) and immune from sulfuric acid, perhaps with a thin plastic coating. They would be used to cool the planet, which should also reduce the wind speed. The CO2 on Venus will never solidify, the pressure is just way to high. So eventually the CO2 will have to be removed or converted. Even with all the CO2 gone there will still be a Nitrogen atmosphere 2.4 times that of Earth, so mountain top living will be the go for a while.

If a cloud city will work on Venus, then why has it not already been tried on Earth, even as an experiment?

Michael
http://www.geocities.com/alt_cosmos/ind … index.html

chat · 2004-06-01 04:02:55

mbastion,

A good test subject on earth is the good year blimp.

It works well but requires large fan motors and lots of fine tuning.

A plastic domed sort of structure with large fan motors on Venus could serve well as a chemical factory, or bacteria factory.

But putting people inside that structure as you say is a dangerous adventure.

I've always been in the same camp, that no other body in our solar system can be teraformed other than Venus, and no other body needs to be teraformed.

I see Venus as a heat problem that causes the co2 generation.
Most people i talk to say add hydrogen or water asteroids to fix the co2, but all the math i do for either make it a nastier place, not a cooler one.

Any thoughts on iron asteroid collisions in orbit for blocking sunlight and radiation, and the iron co2 chemistry on the planet as it slowly de orbits. ?
Then maybe water asteroids at some point.

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Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#202 2004-05-19 17:07:58

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

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#204 2004-05-20 13:31:28

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#205 2004-05-20 16:54:54

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#206 2004-05-20 18:01:14

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#207 2004-05-20 20:28:38

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#208 2004-05-22 05:29:38

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#209 2004-05-22 10:29:07

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#210 2004-05-22 11:33:41

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#211 2004-05-22 14:52:59

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#212 2004-05-23 12:34:57

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#213 2004-05-23 14:44:06

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#214 2004-05-24 04:24:35

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#215 2004-05-24 04:28:34

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#216 2004-05-26 00:03:57

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#217 2004-05-26 07:46:21

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#218 2004-05-26 09:21:52

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#219 2004-05-26 12:39:06

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#220 2004-05-28 04:06:29

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#221 2004-05-30 22:35:40

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#222 2004-05-31 08:23:59

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#223 2004-05-31 08:40:55

Re: Terraforming Venus - methods anyone?

#224 2004-06-01 00:59:39

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#225 2004-06-01 04:02:55

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