Airplanes on Mars

SpaceNut · 2023-11-30 20:49:28

The Ares scout mission was a design using an inflatable wing and epoxy setup by UV and I am sure that if you fill it with helium, it will be buoyant such that a single prop would be used to make it move.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_Re … tal_Survey

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-01 07:54:17

Terminal Velocity
https://www1.grc.nasa.gov/beginners-gui … s/termvel/
The terminal velocity equation tells us that an object with a large cross-sectional area or a high drag coefficient falls slower than an object with a small area or low drag coefficient. A large flat plate falls slower than a small ball with the same weight. If we have two objects with the same area and drag coefficient, like two identically sized spheres, the lighter object falls slower. This seems to contradict the findings of Galileo that all free-falling objects fall at the same rate with equal air resistance. But Galileo’s principle only applies in a vacuum, where there is NO air resistance and drag is equal to zero.

Terminal Velocity Calculator
https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/ … l-velocity

a question is asked

an answer is provided by 'Mark Adler', who might be the same Mark Adler at NASA
he is an electrical engineer who taught physics, worked at an aerospace company, an American software engineer who worked at NASA

Terminal Velocity is 4.8 times faster on Mars
https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … ty-on-mars
Vt= √ 2W/ρCdA
where

Vt
= terminal velocity
W = weight (mass times local gravity)
Cd = the coefficient of drag of the object
ρ = atmospheric density
A = frontal area of the object

On Earth not really comparable to flying on Mars but let's look at what speed people have landed at, there are X-planes which landed with 230 knots or 264 mph (426 km/h) groundspeed https://interestingengineering.com/inno … ever-flown an Israeli pilot was reported to have landed a damaged one winged aircraft at 260 kts (300 mph, 480 km/h) https://theaviationist.com/2014/09/15/f … -one-wing/ X-15 research aircraft/spacecraft https://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/ … -DFRC.html a Commercial Airliner Cathay Pacific Flight 780 from Indonesia to HongKong landed with 230 knots (426 km/h) groundspeed, previously served with the Royal Australian Air Force the Aircraft had an engine malfunction https://web.archive.org/web/20201020135 … -2010e.pdf however it was not a perfect landing it was a crash landing and many passengers could not 'walk away', they were hurt or sustained injuries in the quick evacuation. Dry mass of Shuttle was 81,600 kilograms (179,900 lb) Columbia the heaviest of the orbiters; around 1,000 kilograms (2,200 pounds) heavier than Challenger and 3,600 kilograms (7,900 pounds) heavier than Endeavour. The Shuttle more or less falls like a rock it descends at virtually the same velocity of a human at terminal velocity- about 200km/h its basically in free fall until at the last moment when it pitches up and drops the landing gear. There are other Shuttles and mini-Shuttles out there Buran was an abandoned Soviet/Russian program, there is the Dream Chaser reusable lifting-body spaceplane being developed by Sierra Space, Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-105, perhaps a number of Chinese experimental aircraft some of which have been photographed, the Boeing X-37 and Boeing X-40.

One of the claimed differences on the Buran was
https://web.archive.org/web/20201109025 … lniya5.htm
'the cutting lay-out pattern of thermoprotection tiles of Buran is optimal and longitudinal slits of tile belts are orthogonal to the flow line. Sharp angles of tiles are absent. The tile belts of the Buran fuselage and fin have an optimal position.'

methods to slow down aircraft include a type drag chute or the drag of a shuttlecock, a carrier Arresting Gear and even an elastic net barricade used as a backup system, ropes laid across are designed to be caught by an aircraft's tailhook, the Aircraft catapult is used to launch an aircraft from a short take off distance.

Spaceplanes That Never Were...
https://web.archive.org/web/20161027050 … =326480269
and Japanese and European concepts

GCNRevenger wrote:

What happened to balloons? They can last a long time, they are pretty reliable, well understood, simple, and could either descend or drop a sample collector. Easy to power with thin-film polymer solar cells on the balloon too perhaps.

I haven't seen this GCNR guy in a long time, but a good question what indeed happened to them?

if there is one positive from the 2023 Chinese balloon incident its that people are talking about the science of Balloons again

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-25 11:35:58)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-01 10:20:14

'NASA Tests Next-Gen Mars Helicopter Blades'

https://www.extremetech.com/science/nas … ter-blades

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-12 08:14:34

So China studied the Helicopter Aircraft every video, all images, every pixel and 'Copied' or was 'Inspired' by the design.

“MarsBird-VII a Mars quadcopter capable of independent aerial exploration with a rated take-off weight of 4kg”

Helicopters can go faster and farther than ground rovers and have the potential to access steep and complex landforms.

'China unveils ‘foldable’ Mars helicopter in mission to return samples to Earth'
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/china-unveils … 35080.html

China is following in Nasa’s footsteps by developing what researchers have called a “foldable” Mars helicopter that could help the country’s space agency retrieve samples from the Red Planet in a future mission.
Until recently, rovers sent to explore other worlds like Nasa’s Curiosity or China’s Zhurong have mostly stayed rooted to the ground, exploring unfamiliar terrain on wheels.
In 2021, Nasa’s Ingenuity Mars helicopter revolutionised interplanetary exploration and proved successful beyond expectations by conducting several ground-breaking flights on the Red Planet.
The 1.8kg chopper demonstrated vertical take-off and powered flight on Mars and has proven to be a successful model for future aerial explorers for the Red Planet.
China now appears to be getting in on the act as it has proposed developing a quadcopter that could assist in returning rock samples from Mars, revealed a new study.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-24 20:51:31

NASA Uses Two Worlds to Test Future Mars Helicopter Designs
https://mars.nasa.gov/news/9513/nasa-us … r-designs/

an internet question on 'stackexchange'

Is it possible to fly a glider on Mars and if so are there any plans for one?
https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … ns-for-one

Chinese boffins pitch quadcopter for Mars sample return mission
https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/07/ … uadcopter/

"The Mars quadcopter should be able to collect a rock sample with a mass of 100g and a diameter of about 40mm within a radius of 500m around the lander at once," the researchers wrote in their paper.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-25 11:29:16

This article claims 14 mbar at the deep Hellas Basin, higher than other readings of 12.4 mbar or 1240 Pa

a question for Astrobiologists is can liquid water exist at the bottom of Hellas Planitia and indeed rest comfortably?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3317300934
Hellas Planitia is the second-largest confirmed impact basin on the planet, with a diameter of 2300 km. The basin also contains the topographically lowest parts of Mars, and hence, the highest atmospheric pressure on the planet of up to 14 mbar (Carr, 2006). Air and surface temperatures vary by season from ∼150 to 275 K and 307 K, respectively

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-26 05:32:34

'otherworld wreckage'

NASA’s Mars helicopter highlights cost of human exploration in latest image
https://bgr.com/science/nasas-mars-heli … est-image/

There is a guy online named Eric M. Shear or ericmagnusshear he says he was involved with the 'Mars Desert Research Station' in 2014 he posted 'I’ve registered for the 2014 Mars Society convention in Houston this August and will be presenting my results there'

Solar Balloons for Mars Polar Exploration

I’m having the wonderful opportunity to work with a veteran of planetary exploration – Dr. John Moores – who contributed to several Mars missions (website). His chief interest is water on other planets, since it’s a chief precursor to life.

https://ericmagnusshear.wordpress.com/2 … ploration/

'Dr. Moores is very interested in this concept because it has the potential to carry out scientific observations at multiple points separated from each other by many kilometers and impassable terrain. This is something not even the Mars rovers have managed to pull off. To date, the longest-lived Mars rover, Opportunity, has traveled only 39 km in 11 years.'

The guy says he worked with a veteran of the Curiosity rover science team to produce a peer-reviewed paper on a balloon mission to explore Mars, he says he built a cryogenic carbon dioxide scrubber that reduces astronaut life support logistics over existing scrubbers and tested designs at NASA Ames Research Center

He seems to have a linkedin

'Space Scientist & Chemical Engineer'
https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-shear-6220b313

The Planetary Report January/February 1991
https://www.planetary.org/planetary-report/tpr-1991-1
The Mars Balloon: It Works!

2009 article

Designing solar airplanes for continuous flight
https://www.spie.org/news/1649-designin … ight?SSO=1
A novel conceptual design tool helped scientists build Sky-Sailor, a small-scale, autonomous solar-powered craft that flew for 27 hours.

the Prandtl-D design

'Subscale Glider Makes First Flight'
https://www.nasa.gov/news-release/subsc … st-flight/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-26 05:56:50)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-26 21:44:30

Some months back we were reading Ingenuity travels 5.5 miles or 8.9 kilometers and it was an impressive feat, that easily beats the small distance of MER 'Spirit' and Sojourner the first rover only traveled zero point 1 of a km, the Indian Rover on the Moon also only reached a small fraction of a Km, I think the first Chinese Rover Zhurong traveled maybe a mile or 1.5km. In more recent months there was news the NASA / JPL Helicopter 'Ginny' would travel 7 + miles or 11 + km, the manned Apollo LRV traveled a lot 22 + miles or 35 + km. The Mars Helicopter seems in good condition & is it so outrageous to think it can beat the record set the Soviet Rover and then broke by Opportunity reaching 39 km or 24.2 miles.

Edit

I read Opportunity drove 45.16 km (28.06 mi) perhaps an impossible feat for this little Helicopter

https://archive.today/20150830191319/ht … _2011.html

but the Helicopter has now travelled 10 miles approx or approx ~16.7 km in 67 flights as of December 2023

it has also travelled with a speed of 22.4 mph or 10 m/s

it could start to beat records of the manned Apollo Lunar Roving Vehicles

https://mars.nasa.gov/technology/helicopter/#Flight-Log

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-26 22:10:45)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-27 11:12:31

Not very efficient but faster than building a train to a far off remote village or mining town

Australia has Flying Health Service or RFDS also known as the Flying Doctor an air medical service in Australia that provides emergency and primary health care services for those living in rural, remote and regional areas of Australia.

Medical services commenced in 1926 to provide health to injured miner, the miner was transported to a hospital in the next year.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170808155 … e/21189888

While on a Highway in Australia you might see road signs indicating that an RFDS emergency airstrip is ahead.

GW Johnson · 2023-12-27 16:27:05

I ran numbers for density, dynamic pressure, and wing area to support a unit mass for Earth sea level, and for Mars at 6 mbar and 12 mbar atmospheric pressures. I used a 59 F = 15 C standard day on Earth, and -60 F = -51 C on Mars.

Allowing for the lower gravity on Mars, it takes 24.5 times as much wing area to support a unit mass on Mars as it does on Earth, in the Hellas Basin at 12 mbar. For most other sites it takes 49 times as much wing area on Mars as on Earth to support a unit mass, at 6 mbar.

Those were figured for a very practical landing and takeoff speed of 120 mph = 176 ft/sec = 53.6 m/s, and a very practical lift coefficient = 1.0, that is well away from stalling. FAR 23 and 25 require a stall margin for airplane designs here on Earth. It will be no different on Mars.

Pretty much the same dilemma is faced with rotor blades in a helicopter (mass supported by disk area, the "disk loading") is the measure most often used, but it derives from rotor length, when chord x length is blade area for a single blade.

For either type of craft to be useful for human transport, what has been seen must be scaled up very much larger. The “Ingenuity” helicopter really does work on Mars, but it would have to be very, very much larger to carry a human! Much less a pressure-suited human! Despite the lower gravity.

Strength of a part varies as dimension squared. Mass of a part varies as dimension cubed. Weight is mass times gee. That means the strength/weight ratio here on Earth is 10 times lower if we make it 10 times larger. That means it gets 10 times heavier-for-the-strength at 1 gee if we make it 10 times larger. On Mars at 0.38 gee, if scaled up by 10, it gets 3.8 times heavier-for-the-strength. Every time you make the wing (or rotor blade) bigger, it also gets heavier-for-the-strength. There or here. Just not at the same rates because gee is lower there.

I think you're fighting a losing battle trying to make airplanes (or helicopters) work on Mars at a size scale big enough to be useful to humans there. That air is just too thin, even in the Hellas Basin.

GW

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-29 13:18:56

I have talked of using an Aircraft or Balloon or Helicopter as a 'Scout', Rovers do not have the speed and distance for examination of a far away cave. Some type of craft maybe used as a HAPS or ULDB platform, maybe as high altitude radar when Mars gets busy or to take photos or reflect a transmission or a repeater for over the horizon communication signals

This quote was from a discussion on the Aerostats, the Chinese Balloon event or blimps and an Operation that happened some time between 2001 and 2021

kbd512 wrote:

blimps proved to be much more cost-effective than satellites and could operate for weeks at a time at high altitude. Unlike satellites, they could be easily retrieved for maintenance or upgrades, and not limited to a semi-fixed orbit. The flexible solar panels and regenerable fuel cells onboard supplied just enough power to keep them stationary in the jet stream at all times, day or night.

Chinese Spaceplane Releases Six Mysterious Objects That Are Emitting Signals
https://news.yahoo.com/chinese-spacepla … 33674.html

These are some old forum discussions

the world building stackexchange message forums can be a bit more speculative and a little more out there since they deal with video game simulation and scifi writing. However there are many scientific and skilled and qualified people among stackexchange communities.

'Can planes fly on Mars'?
https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com … ly-on-mars

'x-planes on mars'
https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/f … s-on-mars/

'Is it possible to Fly Aircraft on Mars'?
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/ques … ft-on-mars

This is an article from 2014

High-Tech Airships Could Be NASA's Next Challenge
https://www.space.com/28132-nasa-airship-challenge.html
One of NASA's new citizen science endeavors could involve high-tech, record-breaking airships designed to aid scientific research projects.
NASA has proposed a challenge that calls for airship designs that can fly higher and longer than existing airships. At the moment, no airship — blimp-like devices — can maintain an altitude of 65,000 feet (20 kilometers) for more than 8 hours. Weather balloons can soar to that height, but the balloons are difficult to control and vulnerable to winds.

65,000 feet or 20 kilometers is not good enough for a Mars Analogue, the Temperature would be a cold and interesting -69.7 F or -56.5 like Antarctica condition but the pressure would be 0.05475 far too high

Perhaps Japan can do missions sustain a Balloon at maybe six or seven times the height of Mount Everest. The Japanese or JAXA are flying weather Balloon experiments at 52 km + or 32.3 miles

one Balloon flew to a height of almost 54 kms

and aircraft again

X-15 Hypersonic Research Aircraft
https://www.nasa.gov/centers-and-facili … rong/x-15/

GW Johnson wrote:

I ran numbers for density, dynamic pressure, and wing area to support a unit mass for Earth sea level, and for Mars at 6 mbar and 12 mbar atmospheric pressures. I used a 59 F = 15 C standard day on Earth, and -60 F = -51 C on Mars.
GW

Thanks for running the numbers

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-29 13:22:17)

GW Johnson · 2023-12-31 11:15:33

Earth's air resembles Mars's average, in terms of pressure somewhere in the vicinity of 110,000 feet = 33.5 km altitude. Mars's "air" is colder, but has higher molecular weight, so the densities are also comparable at about that altitude. That's why the Viking parachute flight tests were conducted up there.

Yes, balloons fly up there, but they don't carry a lot of payload for the envelope size, when they do. You have to be willing to accept that penalty when you use them up there, and no one has ever re-used the balloon, only the payloads. It quite unlike the near-surface hot air balloon races or celebrations we often see.

There were 2 or 3 balloon tests flown in the late 1950's to around 98,000-to-108,000, the final one being the manned parachute jump pressure suit test. That was beaten in recent years with a parachute jump from a balloon gondola flying about 128,000 feet = 39 km, if memory serves. Those enormous had enormous balloons with rather tiny payloads.

Unmanned balloons have even flown higher, but the payloads were very much smaller than a single-person gondola, hanging on the same gigantic, non-reusable envelopes.

Yes, it can be done on Mars, and might even be practical for small scientific instrument packages. But for transporting people or freight on Mars? No way! We don't generally do that near-surface here on Earth anymore, the Goodyear blimps being the main exception, and only for aerial TV coverage of games. Even that is being replaced by drones of late. There's good reasons for that, too.

GW

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-31 11:37:36

This post is reserved for a link to GW Johnson's latest paper on airplanes on Mars.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/abupurcm … 7g9ju&dl=0

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-01-05 08:40:08

some report the Chinese 'Mystery Objects' from the X-type Shutte-ish Plane might just be normal space debris falling back to Earth

Ingenuity’s 69th Flight is its Farthest So Far
https://www.universetoday.com/165053/in … st-so-far/

When NASA decided to send the little Ingenuity rotorcraft to Mars on the belly of the Perseverance rover, they weren’t certain of success. Nothing like it had ever been attempted in Mars’ extremely thin atmosphere. Mission planners hoped and planned for a total of five flights, enough for a technology demonstration.
But now, as almost everyone knows, Ingenuity has wildly exceeded NASA’s initial expectations.

Flights 70
https://mars.nasa.gov/technology/helicopter/#Images
Flight Time ~127.7
mins
Distance Flown 11 miles (~17.0 km)

Max. Ground Speed 22.4 mph or 10 m/s Highest Altitude 24 meters (~79 ft)

the manned Apollo LRV has traveled double the distance with a figure of 22 + miles or 35 + km

However this is the very first Helicopter Flight, the Helicopter also does not need air, water, food and other life support to keep humans alive

Opportunity a Solar Powered MER still holds the distance record but some now expect this to be broken one day by a Titan Aircraft a Venus Balloon or Europa Vehicle or another Mars flying machine

SpaceNut · 2024-01-05 18:22:39

NASA unveils MAGGIE: The solar airplane set to revolutionize Martian exploration

That is a large number of panels.
AA1mvF7X.img?w=768&h=432&m=6

MAGGIE stands for Mars Aerial and Ground Intelligent Explorer. This high-performance fixed-wing aircraft features a fuselage and wings covered in photovoltaic cells. The machine will possess the capability of vertical takeoff and landing, thereby increasing flexibility in terms of space for such maneuvers.
When flying in the Martian atmosphere at approximately 3280 feet, MAGGIE can conduct geophysical and chemical measurements over large areas. Experts from Interesting Engineering suggest this could herald a new era of space technology. The collected data could play a pivotal role in expanding our comprehension of the Red Planet and assist in planning potential future missions.
The MAGGIE project is being developed under the aegis of NASA. However, the American aviation company Coflow Jet designed it. They proposed a machine capable of covering 111 miles in 7.6 Martian days (24 hours, 39 minutes, and 35 seconds). Within a Martian year, the maximum range is expected to surpass 9941 miles.

Calliban · 2024-01-14 06:42:46

The Fairey Rotodyne.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dkJOm1V77Xg

This was a promissing idea that fell victim to budget cuts. It is an autogyro, with an unpowered rotating wing that can be powered up using tip mounted ramjet engines for vertical takeoff and landing. It was intended to be used as a commuter taxi between city centres and surrounding towns. It could have had military uses as a troop transport as well. Much cheaper than a helicopter due to much superior fuel efficiency. Unfortunately, the UK after WW2 had limited resources and the government of the day did not appreciate the value of the project.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-01-14 06:50:55)

GW Johnson · 2024-01-14 11:45:00

I checked the link to the "Airplanes on Mars?" paper: it works fine. The same paper is also posted at my "exrocketman" site.

GW

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-03-04 05:41:46

Image Shows Mars Helicopter With Blade Completely Snapped Off
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/image-shows-m … 09550.html

ARES was a proposal to build a robotic, rocket-powered airplane that would fly one mile above the surface, there was also proposed airplane mission concept to Titan and a soon to fly Dragonfly mission.

A continued debate on Planetary Ballooning, Airship etc

https://www.nasa.gov/scientificballoons … -balloons/

Since the success of the Helicopter some have considered a flying device that lifts and breathes and sucks air. The idea of an engine mixing with sand and dust seems a real danger, on our planet Earth Flying in a dust storm or heavy snow material or volcanic ash should be avoided.

Did a Volcanic Eruption Cause BA Flight 09’s Engines to Fail?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e4GwjVxrTs

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-03-30 14:53:08

Scientists Locate the Broken Rotor Blade of Stricken Mars Helicopter Using Remote Imaging
https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/scienti … e-imaging/
Scientists have located the broken rotor blade lost by the stricken Mars helicopter after 72 flights in the Jezero Crater.

Beyond ingenuity

https://www.aero-mag.com/beyond-ingenuity

High Altitude Weather Balloons Launch
https://www.physicsandastronomy.pitt.ed … ons-launch
the test balloon launches take place on the grounds of the University of Pittsburgh’s Allegheny Observatory in Riverview Park. Their intentions are to launch a practice balloon each month and so far they have conducted three launches with varying degrees of success. The balloons reach an altitude of 85,000 to 105,000 feet and the payloads consist of a streaming video, a still frame camera, temperature sensors and two different GPS tracking systems. Several of the students are working on the main experiment which is to monitor for shadow bands both at altitude and on the ground during the eclipse.

older hybrid ideas on Earth

THE ROTODYNE (Rotodyne also above in Caliban's post # 166)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI3CyruxHCw

and discussed in the electric airplane topic
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9990

Fairey Rotodyne compound helicopter, brochure 1950-55, artwork c.1958 based on photograph of prototype

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.o … d-ephemera

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-03-31 02:02:06)

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