New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#51 2002-12-18 16:43:32

Auqakah
Member
From: England
Registered: 2002-07-13
Posts: 175

Re: When should we terraform

Hmm.

I'll be damned if I can remember the numbers I used - I thought I'd put them in the post, actually - but tinker with it a while and I'm sure you'll see what I mean, even if not to that extreme.


Ex Astra, Scienta

Offline

#52 2003-01-03 14:32:27

soph
Member
Registered: 2002-11-24
Posts: 1,492

Re: When should we terraform

i understand why, it assumed that anything above a certain mean temperature is habitable, and didnt take into account a maximum mean temperature.  i dont think that would be too hard to fix.

Offline

#53 2003-01-04 15:52:14

Auqakah
Member
From: England
Registered: 2002-07-13
Posts: 175

Re: When should we terraform

Yeah, probably. I still say we should just live in domed areas, though. Leave the planet as primal as possible. Keep a red sky instead of a hideously bright white one for most of the years of the terraforming. I somehow doubt that'll be all that pleasant to look at.


Ex Astra, Scienta

Offline

#54 2003-01-04 21:14:55

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: When should we terraform

I'm sure some of you out there have read this already, but if not check it out.

Terraforming Mars Quickly

Brute force, very accelerated, and highly traumatic terraforming. Very un-Red. As a "space imperialist" (to borrow Nova's term) I must admit a certain attraction to the concept.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Offline

#55 2003-01-12 13:07:56

Auqakah
Member
From: England
Registered: 2002-07-13
Posts: 175

Re: When should we terraform

I just love the way people almost always ignore the 'white sky' problem. It's fantastic.  wink


Ex Astra, Scienta

Offline

#56 2003-01-12 13:09:08

soph
Member
Registered: 2002-11-24
Posts: 1,492

Re: When should we terraform

What would that be?

Offline

#57 2003-01-12 13:13:48

Auqakah
Member
From: England
Registered: 2002-07-13
Posts: 175

Re: When should we terraform

Carbon is white. Most plans call for pumping large amounts of carbon dioxide into the Martian atmosphere as a 'first phase'. A dominantly carbon dioxide atmosphere would mean a dominantly white sky - which could prohibit moving outside entirely. Think snow-glare x1000, but coming from above instead of below.


Ex Astra, Scienta

Offline

#58 2003-01-12 13:19:30

soph
Member
Registered: 2002-11-24
Posts: 1,492

Re: When should we terraform

Could we pump out something else with it to dilute the white?  Pure oxygen or nitrogen?

Offline

#59 2003-01-12 13:42:12

Auqakah
Member
From: England
Registered: 2002-07-13
Posts: 175

Re: When should we terraform

Probably, yes, but then it would be an entirely different style of terraforming. Would have to be more brutal, unless you import all the oxygen and nitrogen - and not everyone finds the brutal option all that appealing.

Except for 'space imperialists', naturally.  wink   big_smile   wink


Ex Astra, Scienta

Offline

#60 2003-01-12 17:15:00

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: When should we terraform

I don't want a mostly carbon dioxide atmosphere for technical reasons, not asthetic. I mean, we don't even know if Earth-life can be adapted to such an atmosphere. Can our species adapt quick enough to such a change? Even if they're genetically engineered, they may not be able to for long periods of time (at first it may seem like we've created a species that can handle it, but a decade mass species die out, and since ecosystems are interdependent on those within it, one species could cost the whole ecosystem).

So, that said, I think it's important that we try to get the atmosphere just right.

Do you have actual ‘snow glare from carbon dioxide’ data? Where someone explains just how bring the effect would be? I doubt it has an amplification effect, if anything it should disperse the light, in which case it would be a soft white.


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

Offline

#61 2003-01-13 16:43:29

Auqakah
Member
From: England
Registered: 2002-07-13
Posts: 175

Re: When should we terraform

Perhaps I wasn't specific enough. 'Snow glare' was an example only. And I was saying it would be 1000x worse than snow glare simply because snow glare can be escaped - a white sky can't.

I'm hunting for a link to post here that supports what I'm saying, but haven't had luck yet. But I'm pathetic at finding things online quickly, so that doesn't mean all that much.

The problem wouldn't actually be with the colour of the sky, per se. That would be a symptom of the problem, though. The problem would be the little tiny fact that our eyes are adapted to a particular spectrum of light - an atmosphere composed largely of carbon dioxide would produce a different spectrum of light to the one back here on good ol' Terra, where there is a good deal more other junk floating about in our atmosphere. There's already more light in the red wavelength inside Mars' very slight atmosphere, and that in itself would no doubt cause problems with sight.

Am I making sense yet?


I'll get back to you on that link.


Ex Astra, Scienta

Offline

#62 2003-01-13 16:49:42

soph
Member
Registered: 2002-11-24
Posts: 1,492

Re: When should we terraform

Wouldn't the CO2 outgas other gases?

Offline

#63 2003-01-13 23:55:25

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: When should we terraform

That's what sunglasses are for. smile

They change the spectrum of light so that things are more comfortable. Ever go from living in a cloudy place (like Seattle) to a sunny place (like, say, Los Angeles)? You have to adapt. It's not like sunglasses are a difficult thing to deal with.


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

Offline

#64 2003-01-14 00:04:32

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: When should we terraform

BTW, one should point out that we're not going to be wanting to walk around without glasses anyway. Especially initally, when Mars would lack the whole, ozone layer thing, and your eyes have to deal with UV light.


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

Offline

#65 2003-01-14 13:29:41

Auqakah
Member
From: England
Registered: 2002-07-13
Posts: 175

Re: When should we terraform

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Yeah, but glasses decrease your range of vision. And alot of people aren't suited to contact lenses.

Might mean more accidents, maybe?

And no, I've never been to a sunny place. I live in Britain.  ???  big_smile  :;):[/color:post_uid0]


Ex Astra, Scienta

Offline

#66 2003-01-14 13:54:32

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: When should we terraform

[color=#810541:post_uid0]

Yeah, but glasses decrease your range of vision. And alot of people aren't suited to contact lenses.

Might mean more accidents, maybe?

And no, I've never been to a sunny place. I live in Britain.  ???  big_smile  :;):[/quote:post_uid0]
*Interesting.  In my locale, we have sunshine an average of 320 days of the year.  Today, typically, is absolutely cloud-free.  I love it.  smile 

But I recall very cloudy weather, oh yes indeed...Iowa [where I was born and raised] is generally cloudy, blustery and no stranger to heavy mists and fogs. 

Sunglasses won't decrease your field/range of vision in sunny climes; on the contrary, they're almost a necessity...unless you like headaches. 

--Cindy[/color:post_uid0]


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

Offline

#67 2003-01-14 13:54:45

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: When should we terraform

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I've been all over the country. To both the places I've described. It reallydoes suck to go from a dark and clundy place to a really sunny place. I wear glasses, so I just got prescription sunglasses. It made the transition easier.[/color:post_uid0]


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

Offline

#68 2003-01-14 14:02:55

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: When should we terraform

[color=#810541:post_uid0]

It reallydoes suck to go from a dark and clundy place to a really sunny place.[/quote:post_uid0]
*Well, I think it can go both ways...considering the adjustment involved.  It took me about 3-4 years to really appreciate extremely sunny weather.  But now, 10 years later, just 2 days of cloudy weather is almost unbearable.  In 6/2000 I went to Iowa for a 5-day visit; 2 days of *their* cloudy weather [worse than anything we get around here occasionally] and I was aching to jump a plane for home.  I'd forgotten (somehow) what "lowering clouds" are.  Ugh.  Gimme sunshine any day.

--Cindy[/color:post_uid0]


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

Offline

#69 2003-01-14 14:13:16

soph
Member
Registered: 2002-11-24
Posts: 1,492

Re: When should we terraform

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Dont they have glasses that adjust to the amount of light and provide the optimum amount of tint?[/color:post_uid0]

Offline

#70 2003-01-14 15:26:13

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: When should we terraform

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Certainly Cindy! I lived in Colorado before I went to Seattle, and I must say that Iwas quite depressed there for awhile. It took some major adjusting. And I never did quite get over that experience. Dark time in my life I suppose.

soph, I have those kinds of sunglasses. I'll never forget the reaction people gave me whenever I would walk from indoors to outdoors. “Hey! When did you put on those sunglasses?”

These days it's second nature, though. And people aren't surprised by transitional lenses at all.

And anyway, who knows, perhaps by the time we're living on Mars, we would have perfected VR type glasses! We could walk around with cool looking, Matrix-esque lenses which change color, have vidscreens and so on. It'd be really cool.[/color:post_uid0]


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

Offline

#71 2003-02-05 02:25:55

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: When should we terraform

[color=#000000:post_uid9]Does anyone have a link to this 'white sky' thing?
    I remember reading somewhere that raising Mars' atmospheric pressure to 2 bars of CO2 (maybe impossible anyway) would produce a white sky. But I can't find the site at the moment.
    Another site, click here, suggests that: "If the Martian atmosphere were to be completely cleansed of dust, the daytime sky would appear blue, just as our own sky because of Rayleigh scattering by the molecules (primarily carbon dioxide molecules) which make up the atmosphere."

    This seems to be saying that CO2 molecules are just as capable of producing a blue sky as nitrogen/oxygen molecules. All you have to do is keep the dust out of the air - which is going to be much easier in a denser more water-laden atmosphere anyway.
    So maybe a terraformed Mars with, say, a 500 millibar CO2 atmosphere (ahead of a fully converted N2/O2 atmosphere further down the track), and a new ocean in the north, would have a beautiful blue sky, except during dust storms.

    Who is actually right here?
                                             ???[/color:post_uid9]


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

Offline

#72 2003-02-14 10:35:59

Earthfirst
Member
From: Phoenix Arizona
Registered: 2002-09-25
Posts: 343

Re: When should we terraform

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I think that teraforming should start right now, just send some Icbm's to mars and melt the south pole co2 cap by covering them in dust. Mars is a life less place whats a little fall going to harm. Besides radition good for the bodie in small doses why do think Americans are so healty its thanks to fall out from 50 test in neveda, and all that radon gas in the house. Let not for get lead paint. Those were sure the good old days metaporical speaking since I was born in th 80's.
Now days thanks to the EPA you can only get a little mericury from city water. If you dont belive me than why do poeple with cancer get radiation treatments?
Any ways it better than waiting for are decedents do do the job, if you dint get the memo you be a distent picture in family photo album, with your great great grandchildern make fun of the way you dressed. Why wait SEIZE THE MOMENT.[/color:post_uid0]


I love plants!

Offline

#73 2003-07-07 04:55:47

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: When should we terraform

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Where's Earthfirst's July 4 post?   ???[/color:post_uid0]


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

Offline

#74 2003-07-10 21:33:36

Free Spirit
Banned
Registered: 2003-06-12
Posts: 167

Re: When should we terraform

[color=#000000:post_uid0]The gremlins must be bored stealing socks out of dryers  because Shaun's July 10 message has also disappeared.[/color:post_uid0]


My people don't call themselves Sioux or Dakota.  We call ourselves Ikce Wicasa, the natural humans, the free, wild, common people.  I am pleased to call myself that.  -Lame Deer

Offline

#75 2003-07-11 07:50:33

sax
Banned
From: UK
Registered: 2003-07-11
Posts: 1

Re: When should we terraform

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Can anyone recommend some background reading on terraformation (I'm aware of the basics at a sci fi reader level, but would like something a bit more in depth) and any theory behind "eco-economics" and "bio-infrastructure"?[/color:post_uid0]

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB