Selecting Peace - Abandoning Warfare

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-07 12:38:33

Remember, the best way to protect yourself from an enemy is to make him your friend.

Except when he's a homocidal maniac, then you have to shoot him.

Though the old "fatal hug" foreign policy is something the US should take a closer look at in some cases.

i wish people had common sense, but that tends to be in short supply these days, so unfortunetly, I want big brother to hand out liscense that basically say, "you know how to handle and operate this piece of equipment safely." I'm not asking for much, am I?

I agree, people need to know how to properly handle their weapons before they go running around the streets with them. However, I am opposed to forcing citizens to ask the government for permission to exercise a Right.

So teach proper firearms handling and basic marksmanship in high school.

Bill White · 2004-06-07 12:46:12

I agree, people need to know how to properly handle their weapons before they go running around the streets with them. However, I am opposed to forcing citizens to ask the government for permission to exercise a Right.

When is enough firepower enough?

What about body armor? Should it be legal or illegal?

clark · 2004-06-07 12:49:43

I suppose it all depends on the company you keep... :laugh:

. However, I am opposed to forcing citizens to ask the government for permission to exercise a Right.

To gather in a public square for the purpose of influencing other people by way of expressing your first amendment rights, one must secure all neccessary permits and permission from the public agency where and when applicable.

Stop crying.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-07 13:02:49

When is enough firepower enough?

It's not about firepower, it's about the uncertainty in the minds of violent criminals about who is and who isn't armed. In 'normal' circumstances no one needs anything beyond a 9mm pistol. But once you're at that point, what sense does it make to prohibit semi-auto rifles? Who's going to carry a MAK-90 around anyway?

What about body armor? Should it be legal or illegal?

What objection could anyone have to something that could save a life yet has no offensive potential whatsoever?

To gather in a public square for the purpose of influencing other people by way of expressing your first amendment rights, one must secure all neccessary permits and permission from the public agency where and when applicable.

Or you can go somewhere else. Rent a hall. distribute leaflets. Buy radio time. Talk to people one on one, convince them. The message gets out.

When some thug jumps you on a city street, you need to be able to respond immediately. If that's denied, "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness" means precisely zilch.

Rights or privileges clark, rights or priveleges...

clark · 2004-06-07 13:12:56

When some thug jumps you on a city street, you need to be able to respond immediately. If that's denied, "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness" means precisely zilch.
Rights or privileges clark, rights or priveleges...

If it's about self defense, there are other means to protect yourself.

There is a failing that I see when it comes to our rights (not you, just the general unwashed masses). It's rights and responsibilities.

What I have asked for is for people to take responsibility over their right, to take ownership of the power that they weild when they use a firearm. We have this right, but we have the responsibility to use this right properly, and safely. Just like we can't yell fire in a theater, or shout obsenities over the airwaves, or not leave another persons home after they refuse to listen to your message.

Bill White · 2004-06-07 13:14:41

What about body armor? Should it be legal or illegal?
What objection could anyone have to something that could save a life yet has no offensive potential whatsoever?

If you have kevlar/ceramic body armor, my 9 millimeter might as well be a water pistol for all the good it would do me.

I am not saying body armor should be illegal, but if it isn't, police will need to carry stuff that can penetrate it. Which means people like you will feel the need for more firepower.

An upwards spiral of armaments.

http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le … .html]Like this thing - - this is what I want.

clark · 2004-06-07 13:17:58

So if we all walk around in those space-suits, the terroists will have to come up with an even bigger uglier bomb? :laugh:

Mundaka · 2004-06-07 13:21:26

clark · 2004-06-07 13:36:01

*Hi Mundaka!

Okay, so you're a lucky white guy, blessed by angels.

So I can tell you about fearing for my life while gang bangers shot at me and my friends over some friends brothers decision to date an ex-girlfriend of one of the gang-bangers. A bunch of people with too little sense, and not enough to lose, doing drive bys on some college kids. Getting into brawls on our front door step, just trying to get back inside, away from the knives and the bats. You see, that's what happens. It escalates. They start a fist fight, and you defend yourself. They come back with knives, you grab some wooden boards. Next thing you know it's tire screechs and bullet holes.

People dying on your front lawn, or in your case, in your drive way.

I can tell you about a friend's brother- LAPD. The guy and his partner are undercover, looking for underage alcohol violations from one of the numerous liquor stores. Sitting in the car, across the street from the store that's being watched, who should come up? Some gang banger, hand in pocket, rapping on the window, asking who they were, and why they were there. Two white LAPD undercover officers.

Of course they arrested him, took the pistol in his pants pocket away, the one he was fingering, and threw him in the slammer.

I sit and read the california section of the LA times, and I get to read the daily executions of strangers, many times, children. In LA, we've had four kids (as in 13 and under) killed in as many days, just this past week.

I'm happy things worked out for you, and I hope they continue to. But this isn't the kind of environment I think is positive, and I don't think easy and cheap access to weapons helps.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-07 13:48:25

There is a failing that I see when it comes to our rights (not you, just the general unwashed masses). It's rights and responsibilities.

I'm in agreement with you. The only point of contention is what mechanism should there be to ensure that those exercising the right understand and take the responsibility.

If you have kevlar/ceramic body armor, my 9 millimeter might as well be a water pistol for all the good it would do me.

Hence the little "rolling eyes" smiley.

But the real question is how many threatening criminal types are going to prowl the streets in body armor? It draws attention. There was that bank job in California a few years back, but armored goons haven't really been a huge problem.

Again, if someone wants to wrap themselves in Kevlar, as long as they don't bother anyone I have no problem with it. Otherwise, you can always aim for the joints.

An upwards spiral of armaments.

A essence, the natural progression of human technological development.

Like this thing - - this is what I want.

I just showed that link around the office. The general consensus is "sweet." Bunch'a goons.

Good post, Mundaka. I've had few interesting encounters with, shall we say 'street hoods' myself.

I'm happy things worked out for you, and I hope they continue to. But this isn't the kind of environment I think is positive, and I don't think easy and cheap access to weapons helps.

Again, I agree except for one little detail. The cheap access to weapons is a product of simple market forces, not lack of laws. Here in Detroit, you can buy just about any semi-auto firearm legally and a right-to-carry permit (oxymoron) isn't all that hard to get.

But black market guns are dirt cheap. They could ban all guns tomorrow and confiscate every single one they can track through sales records, registration etc. and they'd still be availbale to anyone who wanted one and didn't mind circumventing some legal oversight. Guns aren't the problem and they're not the cure, but restrictions make the overall effect of the real problem more severe.

clark · 2004-06-07 13:52:31

I just showed that link around the office. The general consensus is "sweet." Bunch'a goons.

Bill, contributing to the problem. :laugh:

Fine, let's compromise then, shall we? You have the right to guns. Hell, let's hand them out for free.

Ban the bullets.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-07 13:57:54

Fine, let's compromise then, shall we? You have the right to guns. Hell, let's hand them out for free.
Ban the bullets.

Then we'll have a some yahoos blowing their hands off because they don't know how to load their own shells. Have you any idea how hard it's gonna be to find the one armed man now?

Mundaka · 2004-06-07 13:58:44

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-07 14:08:06

Got sidetracked and forget to mention another point on the body armor. While it can stop a bullet from killing you, it doesn't just bounce off. You can't shrug and keep coming.

A 9mm to the trauma plate still knocks you on your ass, hurts like a bastard and usually breaks a rib or two.

clark · 2004-06-07 14:11:48

Then we'll have a some yahoos blowing their hands off because they don't know how to load their own shells.

Poetic justice, no? Exercising your right in a fashion that prevents you from ever exercising it again. :laugh:

As for unsafe backwoodsey types, my grandmother taught me to shoot, well enough that on day one I could outshoot my instructors in boot camp. Nothing unusual about that in Texas either, even today -- so, should we have to undergo licensing and training because California is different?

You were raised in an environment that taught you how to handle and operate a firearm safely. That dosen't happen as often as it should. I've said that's the problem. So what's the solution to that problem?

What if Texas developed a legal problem it couldn't control, and then asked Californians to change their culture to suit us?

You mean like having the State kill your own citizens? Killing the mentaly retarded? Killing minorities at an alarming rate? I'm not asked to change my culture, I'm just asked to look the other way. The Civil War pretty much settled that we all need to walk in lock step on certain issues, I think this can be one of them. [shrug] Besides, make training mandatory like the draft, what better way to have a well-trained militia?

As for licensing and registration, California did that with semiauto rifles, and one year later used those same lists to confiscate the registered firearms.

And one needs a semi-automatic rifle for what precisely? Robbing banks or killing the dreaded woodland chimpmunk. oowwooo.

Bill White · 2004-06-07 14:15:26

Bill, out of curiosity, what type of 9mm do you have? (Danger fair maidens! Macho boy talk ahead!)

None. :;):

It was a hypothetical answer to Cobra's assertion that a 9 mm is all anyone would ever need.

Frankly, I am not willing to enter into the whole escalating spiral of firearms. I believe that a cocky reliance on my ability to shoot might prove more dangerous to myself than my cell phone service with 911 & a GPS locator.

Besides, I live in the suburbs of Chicago and even in the bad parts of town, it is unlikely I could be more proficient than any hoodlums I encounter. Therefore, carrying a gun would give a false sense of security, which is even more dangerous than knowing the need to be careful, unarmed.

That said, =IF= I ever bought a handgun, it would likely be some version of Glock. :;):

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-07 14:24:02

The Civil War pretty much settled that we all need to walk in lock step on certain issues, I think this can be one of them. [shrug] Besides, make training mandatory like the draft, what better way to have a well-trained militia?

I'm sayin'! make it a standard part of the public education system. Basic Firearms Safety and Marksmanship, say grades 8-12. Should probably start even earlier.

And one needs a semi-automatic rifle for what precisely? Robbing banks or killing the dreaded woodland chimpmunk. oowwooo.

Who robs a bank with a rifle, really?

I'm worried about those mutant Martian devil-bunnies gettin' down here.

clark · 2004-06-07 14:33:17

I'm sayin'! make it a standard part of the public education system. Basic Firearms Safety and Marksmanship, say grades 8-12. Should probably start even earlier.

Call it, "Non-violent conflict resolution." Liberals will fund it to the the hilt.

Let the Army come for recruiting, and the Conservative will fund it to the hilt.

The military and the hand-gun industry will lobby on our behalf.

Mundaka · 2004-06-07 14:45:28

clark · 2004-06-07 14:58:14

Clark, you watch too much T.V.

I can't go outside, too many people with guns.

On the other hand, I spent 3 years in California, and I'm terrified of your police -- incompetent and obsessed with what they can do to you. The police here in Texas are tough minded, smart, have virtual infestations of common sense and inspire trust.

Eh, the cops aren't so bad. CHP, well, you're better served by not driving the freeways (a definite problem in your line of work- just heard how the Supreme Court ruled in favor the mexican truckers).

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match here, I'm trying to provide an example of how unbelievably badly and incorrectly Texas has been portrayed. All the factoids you presented? Throw 'em out the window Clark. Pure nonsense.

I'm not either. I'll ignore most of the the crap, okay. But it seems your state is prone to plugging people into the chair (or injecting them, whatever). It's an ugly thing, and I think the lone star state could be better than that.

Read the Federalist Papers.

Ah, because our fore fathers were intending individuals to be armed like small armies... there is a trade off between the rights of the individual, and the saftey of society. This issue becomes greater as the population density increases because government, as has always been the case, is the arbiter between our individual rights when we interact with one another. Out in the woods, have at it with the trees, fine by me. You get amourous with my tree on the front lawn of my house in our local neighborhood of several hundred, well, I want to call the cops.

. Besides, you can use the same argument for nailclippers if you want to keep Arabs of a plane these days

Yes, yes. Slippery slope slippery slope, right into the pile of sh*t at the bottom. Come on, I can agree that we should have the right to own a rifle, or even a hand gun. But a semi-automatic rifle shooting dozens of bullets a second? That's not self defense, that's adolescent masturbation for the thrill of it.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-07 15:06:59

But a semi-automatic rifle shooting dozens of bullets a second? That's not self defense, that's adolescent masturbation for the thrill of it.

Clark, you been suckered. You can't fire dozens of bullets a second. Semi-automatic, one bullet for each pull of the trigger. Just like some hunting rifles.

Certain elements like to focus on semi-automatic "assault weapons" because they're scary looking. Ohh, pistol grips... But they're essentially the same as hunting rifles, but with one crucial difference. The cartridges are less powerful. That's right, grandad's 30.06 packs more punch the MAK-90's we're freaking out over.

clark · 2004-06-07 15:24:11

Semi-automatic, one bullet for each pull of the trigger. Just like some hunting rifles.

The difference is that I can't alter my hunting rifle to become fully automatic, where as some semi-automatic rifles, they can.

I'ld be happier if the saturday night specials were done away with- if you want a gun, why hide it?

But anyway, I'm more comfortable with requiring saftey training for firearms, not banning. I know guns aren't the real problem, and I think more people would be comfortable with firearms if they either were trained on how to use them, or knew that others were. It's the freaking reason I can cross a road at a stop sign.

Mundaka · 2004-06-07 15:39:49

clark · 2004-06-07 16:27:07

Well, we did too, for a long time, but too many murderers moved here and we got tired of it.

Just a theory, but perhaps the reason there are so many murders is because guns allow people to be more effective in attacking, or defending themselves. Just a thought.

Death penalty dosen't reduce instances of violent crimes. And we as a nation are in pretty bad company considering the other areas that use the death penalty...

Your argument is akin to the "Living Document" arguments about the Constitution, where it "must evolve" as conditions change. Try buying a car under those conditions.

The alternative is have faith in the infalliablity of our fore fathers (white eltists racists) and what they saw fit as how we should live. No thanks, I prefer a say in my community. Our nation is not a car sales, Mr. Car Salesman.

Trees? And I thought I had seen the world. Clark, the fact that you can even think of such a thing tells me you are far more broad minded than I dared imagine.
Trees . . . trees?

To each their own. What do i care where you get your splinters? Just don't ask me to help pull them out.

Still, I get your point.

I get yours, it just seems I am more willing to look for compromise here, where as your position (that you represent) is rather set in unflinching stone. Nothing wrong with it, even if it is backwards.

Some people wish to move the world, others wish to have it moved around them. Whatever. :laugh:

Well, now you've got me: driving -- or even walking -- in this town is a holy terror, we are among the worst drivers on Planet Earth,

Stick to the horses cowboy. Remember the Alamo, that place where a lot of Texans didn't know when to quit, and lost anyway.

Mundaka · 2004-06-07 16:54:30

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