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SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,972

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

Even if we ever get the shuttle going again we can only launch from the cape, but we can land in a few other places. Then we need to wait for refurb in between launches leaving only the next closed from refurb to fly.

Seems like the russians and the ESA do have a leg up on the US.

For One quicker launches between rockets no waiting for refurb, Launch capability from multiple sites and a much lower cost per rocket as compared to simular expendables from the big two some of Boeing and Lockheed.

bolbuyk

Member

From: Utrecht, Netherlands

Registered: 2004-04-07

Posts: 178

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

To quote from SpaceNut's link:

Last year, Russian space officials said that a Progress supply ship flight cost about $22 million and a Soyuz crew capsule was slightly more expensive. At least two Soyuz ships and three Progress ships are needed each year to maintain the station and rotate its crews.

$22 million for a Progress launch and $25-$30 million for a Soyuz launch. I'd say that is cheaper than we have been discussing here.

One Proton could boost a lunar injection stage, no?

According to the website, one Proton was enough to boost the Soyuz to the Moon. I don't know the launch-cost of a Proton, but comparing to the Soyuz-launch it should somewhat more expensive, about $40 ?

The stuff required for the flight will also cost. I don't think $50 million will be enough.

BTW: The astronaut and cosmonaut that leave the ISS have to go with the space-tourist to fly around the Moon. A tourist with 2 taxi-drivers?

Algol

Member

From: London

Registered: 2003-04-25

Posts: 196

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

Presumealy if you buy the soyuz outright it will be extra to normal servicing/crew transfer ones. You could dock at the space station for a week as an extra. All you then need on top of that is to produce the lunar injectionstage/living module and your away. Say, $100m total, maximum.

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

I think it would cost a little bit more than $100M if its $75-100M for the launch vehicles, you'll need a bit more than $25M to buy you the TLI stage and Soyuz modifications... And that leaves you with a $50M a ticket price tag before making any profit best case... looking at around $60-70M a head, which I think is unrealistic to charge Bill Gates.

---

[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Yang Liwei Rocket

Member

Registered: 2004-03-03

Posts: 993

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

A quarter billion is 6.25 launches? (40 mil each)

isn't three or four more realistic?

(No. No way you can land on the moon for 160 mil.) But hey!

250 million to land on the Moon? By GCNRevengers numbers? Is that cheap or expensive?

very good info in the thread here about Russia's plan
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic … ...4;t=600
Russia :  Mars Station Model
There is also info on the other Russian plans

Russian participation in European/Japan BepiColombo mission

Russia's joint efforts with Chinese Space Agencies Roscosmos / CNSA with ultra-high speed penetrators and sample return from the Moon.

Soyuz to launch from French Guiana, the Russian technicians have already visited European space launch base in French Guiana South America.

Roscosmos Venus lander Venera-D

Radio-Astron an international mission with Russia to launch a free flying satellite carrying a 10-meter radio telescope in high apogee orbit around the Earth

Roscosmos Mars-Grunt will be a Mars sample return mission

The Ptaneta-A program and Aster projects are under consideration too

The Kliper could be in service soon and Novosti has also quoted Perminov as saying that the Kliper can be launched from European as well as Russian spaceports.

Russian joint effort with ExoMars -2009 - Mars Rover

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6623693/]ht … d/6623693/
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/ESA_Permane … ..._0.html

http://sci2.esa.int/nextstep/RussianPro … rogram.pdf

http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Launchers_A … ..._0.html
http://aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?NOK … NOK-200311

http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/ESA_Permane … ..._0.html
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/spacetra … l-05j.html

http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/ESA_Permane … ..._0.html
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/cont … 6/02.shtml

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'first steps are not for cheap, think about it...
did China build a great Wall in a day ?' ( Y L R newmars forum member )

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

it's back in the news!

They say 18 months lead time to implement!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/space/article … 18,00.html

srmeaney

Member

From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810

Registered: 2005-03-18

Posts: 976

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

I Hope they go to stay...Sending tourists to the Moon to help build a base on their trip would go a long way towards reducing the cost to the tourist and the Mission.

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

its only a loop around Luna, they will not land.

Still, If you're Bill Gates, (read:filthy rich) 100 mil to go around the moon is tempting...

publiusr

Banned

From: Alabama

Registered: 2005-02-24

Posts: 682

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

There is more about the mission on this page--and links:
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=23598

It looks like our new CEV might just be a Soyuz!
http://www.capitolsource.northropgrumma … stell.html

Here are the specs on the original Zond.

See Zond 7 for how it should work:
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/soyz7kl1.htm

Now in this case--the Zond was just the rump Soyuz and launched to the moon in one shot not by R-7--but by the UR-500 Proton:
http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/u/ur500l1.jpg

Note the escape tower.

These Zond missions were the only time the Soyuz capsules were launched by anything other than the pyramid-shaped sputink-launchin' R-7.

(The Zenit/Vostok spysats were launched by the RD-170 energiya strap-on based Zenit boosters).

This was the all hypergolic Russian 'version' of Saturn IB. Our Saturn IB was a LOX filed Jupiter surrounded with redstones filled with either all lox or all kero--so each structure had one kind of propellant--no interior bulkheads--only closed at the ends.

On the Proton--those are not strap-on boosters like R-7--but UDMH fuel tanks around the nitrogen tet. oxidizer drum. This rocket turned 40 last year and with Titan IV to die it will be Lock-Marts largest booster available through ILS--provided they don't pull for Boeings Delta IV as part of the ULA agreement.

I think they will launch a standard Soyuz atop R-7 and have it dock with an all fuel upper-stage atop a standard, modern Proton. I'm thinking it will be a lot like the Gemini-Agena missions in its make up--thought it might look like this:

http://www.astronautix.com/articles/theoblem.htm

Here you see a standard Soyuz linking with a rump Soyuz/ZOND:
http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/l/l1posigl.jpg

The Zond would be launched unmanned and would link with a regular Soyuz for transfer. This never happened. Zonds were unmanned and launched by Proton to the moon in one shot--and could only hold one person.

But in THIS private moon mission, I think the Proton will just launch an upper stage with extra fuel in place of the ZOND and a docking target so the R-7 Launched Soyuz can dock with it and be pushed 'backwards' to the moon. It will look like a Gemini Agena. The stage will fall away after use, maybe taking the orbital living module with it--allowing the Soyuz capsule itself to return with only the service module.

So it might look like Zond on return.

This may be give them some better options--but they will be dragging that orbital module with them--unlike ZOND.

However, the Proton might just send up a big all fuel upper-stage.

So it might be a wash--or they might get in an eccentric orbit.

You need a ballistician for that. I'm just a launch vehicle enthusiast.

They might have enough umph to push a whole Soyuz to the Moon and back--but they might have to lose the orbital module and drain the Proton boosted upper stage to go into an orbit.

Then the service module would have to get them back on its own.

publiusr

Banned

From: Alabama

Registered: 2005-02-24

Posts: 682

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

Here is some more news direct from the site:
http://www.deepspaceexpeditions.com/sec … story.html
http://www.deepspaceexpeditions.com/section5-press.html
http://www.deepspaceexpeditions.com/section3-DSE.html

Articles
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/tourism-05zb.html
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050810/nyw048.html?.v=17
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/199/

Discussion
http://xprizenews.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1409

So they will place a full-blown Soyuz on a simple circumlunar mission.

I am thinking that the orbital module will still be shed before the craft comes back to Earth--looking pretty much like ZOND upon its return at least.

So I would like to hear some suggestions on what you would like to put on the orbital module that will be left behind near the moon.

I am thinking that this price tag is too steep for all but billionares--but if some instruments were placed aboard the module--and if it was left in orbit--I dare say some of the cost might be defered as universities chip in. The tourist and cosmonaut would be able to work on projects not to be trusted to robots until after deployment at least.

Here is one other thought. This might even allow for a spacewalk high above the lunar surface.

If the orbital module were filled with a solar sail--with a tube left for a suited cosmonaut to use--a solar sail could be deployed by such a craft in lunar orbit--and could keep a platform in orbit--using the solar sail to help the craft fight the effect of mass concentrations that make lunar orbits tricky.

With a human there--and no atmosphere to speak of--the solar sail would be deployed by hand and any Galileo type dish trouble fixed on the spot. The sail would be able to tack close to the lunar surface perhaps--without an atmosphere to drag it down.

Orbital modules left behind could serve as a useful survey craft that could fly quite close to the moon, and even use some of the reflected moonlight for solar power on the 'bottom' side. If the orbital module is too heavy--it can be cast off.

No controlled landing will be possible--but having a cosmonaut or two in dedicated non-tourist missions would allow the controlled deployment of a solar sail in an environment with very little atmospheric drag--to better calculate the real effects of the 'push' of sunlight upon a sail. Thus the planetary society would not need to launch a dedicated craft to LEO--and merely hitch a ride and help pay for its cost.

I dare say that this effort may even be more profitable than LEO/Suborbital missions in that they take place in a unique environment.

This is cheaper than dedicated EELV lunar robotics missions in that you will have a human presence to help deploy the craft right away--and the cost will be split using cheaper R-7 and/or Proton booster.

HLLVs will be used for landings--and the expensive EELVs left out of the loop entirely.

Here is what I'd like to see. Get a hoax believer and have him deploy the sail. Then slam the hatch shut when the sail is away and do a burn for Earth--and let him get back on his own.--or crash next to the Apollo II LEM stump so that its the last thing he ever sees...

On a serious note--the craft will probably be on a fast flyby--but a solar sail module could still be detached during the mission in some way.

It might be that only the new big Long March can put a Shenzhou in anything like a useful orbit around the moon. Something could be done with the orbital module in some respect.

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

"If the orbital module were filled with a solar sail--with a tube left for a suited cosmonaut to use--a solar sail could be deployed by such a craft in lunar orbit--and could keep a platform in orbit--using the solar sail to help the craft fight the effect of mass concentrations that make lunar orbits tricky...

...the craft will probably be on a fast flyby--but a solar sail module could still be detached during the mission in some way.

It might be that only the new big Long March can put a Shenzhou in anything like a useful orbit around the moon. Something could be done with the orbital module in some respect."

No. Putting anything into orbit around the Moon using a Soyuz with Lunar transfer stage sent up on Proton won't be practical, because since the Soyuz won't be going into orbit and will just be looping around the Moon (probobly not enough fuel even if they wanted to), whatever vehicle you wish to put into orbit must not only slow down alot but it must do so quickly (IE a rocket) to avoid looping back and burning up in Earth's atmosphere. A solar sail nor ion engine has anywhere near this thrust, plus Soyuz can only carry like 100lbs or so worth of "extra" mass beyond crew and their suits, not enough for much of a probe.

You also make alot of the Nothrop "Soyuz Knockoff" design, more then I think is warrented. Griffin is finally beginning to understand just what kind of financial squeeze he's in, and I don't think he can afford to develop TWO kinds of capsules. The three-seater from Northop won't be big enough for the Moon.

---

[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

publiusr

Banned

From: Alabama

Registered: 2005-02-24

Posts: 682

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

A very light sail could open up its orbit--leaving the Zond-like craft to come back in a more direct fashion. The small sail could be put in a cycler orbit.

Anything but those cramped Volnas

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

"The small sail could be put in a cycler orbit."

No. It would not have enough thrust, and it would sail right out of Lunar orbit... and into Earth's atmosphere and burn up.

---

[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

publiusr

Banned

From: Alabama

Registered: 2005-02-24

Posts: 682

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

Beats going straight into the ocean.

But you are right. Moon missions using assembly of smaller payloads are foolish.

Which is why I support SDV HLLV after all.

publiusr

Banned

From: Alabama

Registered: 2005-02-24

Posts: 682

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

More on the mission:
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/dsealpha.htm
Flyby craft
http://www.astronautix.com/craftfam/manlunar.htm
The Chinese may want this:
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/kliper.htm

Yang Liwei Rocket

Member

Registered: 2004-03-03

Posts: 993

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

12th International Space Station crew, are scheduled to launch from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan a few minutes before midnight EDT Sept. 30 to begin a 182-day stay in space.

With them will be American Greg Olsen, the third private citizen in space

Greg Olsen, to Communicate with High School Students from the International Space Station
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=17905

STAR CITY, Russia - Space passenger Greg Olsen
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9323509/
Greg Olsen may be paying $20 million for a ride to the international space station next month, but that doesn’t mean he’ll get out of doing the chores in orbit.

---

'first steps are not for cheap, think about it...
did China build a great Wall in a day ?' ( Y L R newmars forum member )

publiusr

Banned

From: Alabama

Registered: 2005-02-24

Posts: 682

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

That's good.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,972

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

While I am not sure if it can be do by the current ships used by the Russian but they will it would seem try to pull off tourist flights to the moon and the price is right... at $100 million.

Russia plans a ten day joy ride to moon

a modernised spacecraft Soyuz with a Russian cosmonaut and one or two space tourists on board will be first put into low earth orbit and docked with the ISS. After that, an upper-stage rocket will be launched from the Baikonur space center to be docked with the Soyuz. "The power of the upper stage will suffice for the flight around the moon and return to earth," Krasnov said, adding that whole trip would last from eight to ten days.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,972

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

Another view on the Russian Technologies Can Put Cosmonauts On Moon

The paradox is that the Americans have put all their money in the transport system being developed by NASA (the National Aeronautics and Space Administration) and its budgetary division.

Of course the article detours for a while before getting back to what can the Russian really do.

Meanwhile, Russian technologies, despite falling well behind in financing terms, promise to put cosmonauts on the Moon's surface in seven to nine years' time, with the whole exercise to cost no more than $2 billion.

"We could bring about a landing," said Nikolai Sevastyanov, president of the Energia Rocket and Space Corporation, "as early as 2012-2014 by using the technology of Soyuz-type spacecraft. If we had a $2 billion program, we could land on the Moon after mounting only three expeditions."

The it goes off again trumpeting the Klipper and what it may be possible of.

If thats all it would really take to get the Energia Rocket and space corporation to go then what is stopping it from actually doing so other than the ability to turn a profit for going....

publiusr

Banned

From: Alabama

Registered: 2005-02-24

Posts: 682

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

Links:
http://neverworld.net/truax/
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums … 36&posts=4   

http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/27/technol … paceintro/

EuroLauncher

Member

From: Europe

Registered: 2005-10-19

Posts: 299

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

With soft currencies like the rouble, fixing a price in dollars seems risky.

Don't you mean, fixing a price in anything except dollars, euros, pounds or yens is risky?

Russian company sets sights on the moon
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?S … 1147-9711r

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,385

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

Another related thread

Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

State Duma ratifies space rocket agreement with France
http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.htm … &PageNum=0
A ceremony of laying a rock from the Gagarin launch pad of the Baikonur cosmodrome in the foundation of the future Soyuz-ST pad at Kourou be held on February 26.

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

Russians on the Moon? Yeah sure... note that they aren't going to use any rockets except Soyuz (maybe uprated to Onega-class) and Proton. No HLLV. This dooms them to small payloads, and hence prevents them from doing much of anything. No long-range rovers, no useful base, etc.

---

[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

cIclops

Member

Registered: 2005-06-16

Posts: 3,230

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

Russian Space Agency ready to send Abramovich around Moon

MOSCOW, Apri 21 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's Space Agency is ready to send Russia's richest man, London-based Roman Abramovich, on a flight around the Moon for $300 million after 2010.

"Some press reports have said Roman Abramovich has submitted his candidacy for flying around the Moon for $300 million," Anatoly Perminov, head of the agency, said. "The figure is attractive, and ... we will consider the proposal after 2010."

Perminov said until 2009 all space tourist flights had been signed up.

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SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,972

Re: Soyuz:  Fly Me to the Moon

Saw articles as they relate to this on spacetoday with the particular methods for transport being a fly around while the other gives a trip to ISS in addition. Still a soyuz needs a booster to get to the moon and back for either case.