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#226 2007-10-11 02:59:05

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

The Space Report 2007 (PDF)

Check out the reported 300% increase in the Chinese (CNSA) government space agency budget between 2005 and 2006 on page 6 (from $0.5 to $1.5 billion) NASA had a 3% increase while JAXA & ESA had falling budgets. Also note US government space budget increased from $57 to $62 billion ! (Non US space budgets exclude military expenditures.)


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#227 2007-10-11 12:17:10

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

The Space Report 2007 (PDF)

Check out the reported 300% increase in the Chinese (CNSA) government space agency budget between 2005 and 2006 on page 6 (from $0.5 to $1.5 billion) NASA had a 3% increase while JAXA & ESA had falling budgets. Also note US government space budget increased from $57 to $62 billion ! (Non US space budgets exclude military expenditures.)

Its as if we're all saying, "All Hail Emperor Ming, the mighty Emperor of the Cosmos!" Its so frusterating when all our national leaders turn into enuches. They all have trouble balancing their budgets except when it comes to this particular area.

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#228 2007-10-12 05:52:54

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 360

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

Chang’e II looks like it will deploy a robotic lunar lander

I don't think the PRC could make it to Mars before the Russians or US if they tried. If they made a serious push, either NASA the ESA or both together would probly mount a crash program to get there first. China still has no manned space experience, no experience with HLV's, interplanetary probes, and very little experience in space in general. I would hate for them to go there first, have an accident, kill the crew, and discourage others from going.

If the Commies were there, I would sure bring some way for the crew to defend themselves to Mars, you could never be sure they wouldn't try something if it hit the fan. "Our reactor failed, we're taking yours"

Have you looked at the latest GDP figures for China? Its now $8 trillion compared to $12.5 trillion for the United States. Seems to me that if this trend continues, China will overtake the USA as the largest Superpower sometime in the second decade of the 21st century. Worst of all, do you want some Dictator taking the position as the top Dog in the Chinese Century? What will happen to the free world in that case. I think we should take the opportunity and grab hold of Mars while we are still ahead. Once China passes us, there is no catching back  up. We have a window of opportunitystretching from now until 2020, if we pass it up and find, "better things to spend our money on", then China will dominate space for the next century, we'll all have to learn that very difficult language of Chinese and their thousand character alphabet and learn how to bow to their communist emperor. I think we should try to break out into space and leave our mark on human history before the World becomes part of the Chinese Empire.

How China Negotiates With Kidnappers
http://www.rense.com/general78/howchina.htm

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#229 2007-10-12 11:18:09

samy
Member
From: Turku, Finland
Registered: 2006-01-25
Posts: 180
Website

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

Tom, you seem to be under some kind of delusion that we will have to bow down to them if they get to the moon first. That kind of logic seems to make no sense to me. They're not bowing down to the US either because the US got there first.

Space is a pretty damn big place. There is room there for both them and us. Indeed, the more of them there are in space, the cheaper our own missions will get, simply through global economies of scale. Space-rated solar panels will get cheaper when there are more buyers, space-rated electronics will get cheaper when there are more buyers...a lot of the materials will get cheaper because there are more buyers.

We as humanity are all in this together, and what one side does, helps the other side.

A race is not a war. We're not trying to kill the other guy. We shake hands, compete, and then the loser congratulates the winner with a smile, "Well played!" We should be happy for them if they pull off a great race. It's going to be nice having some company out there in the cold vacuum of space.

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#230 2007-10-12 19:56:03

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

Answer me this Samy, what is the most prevalent language in the Western Hemisphere?

Spanish isn't it?

Do you know why it is spanish?

Because of something called the Spanish Empire, because of that Spanish Empire, most of the illegals crossing the border from Mexico speak Spanish. The Spanish got here first, and because of that, they got the largest chunk of the New World, the British and the French almost missed out. Most of the culture here in the New World is spanish culture, most of the people here are Catholic, that is primarily because the nation that was most interested in colonizing the New World was Spain, while Great Britian had its other concerns, and piracy. Later on the Spanish Empire became rotten to the core, but that was centuries later and by that time its influence was felt.

What I'm concerned about is a Solar System that's mostly Chinese, a Chinese Mars, and a Chinese Moon, and the rest of the old world consisting of other nations that decided to look inwards instead of outwards. The Chinese colonists expand outwards and the solar system is teeming with hundreds of billions of Chinese speakers, all answerable to the Party, while the quaint old cultures of Earth with their polygot of languages and their pecular institution of Democracy is largely ignored by the majority of Chinese speaking humanity.

No, I don't want to go to War with China, but I want my country to have its peace of the pie. What I don't want is for Americans to put "space in a box" and say that what the Chinese are doing is just meaningless propaganda for an immature nation to beat its chest about, and while the US tries to limit its population to fit within Earth's ecological balance, the Chinese colonists have large families and spread throughout the asteroids.

If America is concerned with terrorism and healthcare, social security and the rest while China wants to spread throughout the Solar System, which culture wins out in the end?

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#231 2007-10-12 21:39:03

Commodore
Member
From: Upstate NY, USA
Registered: 2004-07-25
Posts: 1,021

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

We're a few years away having worry about competing with the Red Colonies, even if the Chinese beat us to the moon. But it would be very dangerous to underestimate the prestige effect of being the 1st to establish the first off world colony, so much more than the first new world colony due to the technological prowess required. It has a tremendous power to validate the superiority of the political system and culture that founds it.

I believe that it is vital to the future of humanity that when we do finally take that step, it is not done for the purpose of settling old Earth scores. This can only be done by a system originating not from the territorial, cultural, ethnic, or, economic, or political claims of the past, but based on the fundamental rights and responsibilities of all of humanity.


"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane

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#232 2007-10-12 21:45:47

samy
Member
From: Turku, Finland
Registered: 2006-01-25
Posts: 180
Website

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

It has a tremendous power to validate the superiority of the political system and culture that founds it.

Only in regards to the specific thing accomplished. If China can beat the US in a space race, it implies a dictatorship is better *for a space race*. However, it doesn't say anything about other things. If China can beat the US in a space race, it has no bearing whatsoever on whether China is better in GDP, populace happiness quotient, birth rate or anything else. Getting to the moon first only proves a dictatorship's superiority in pursuing space -- nothing else.

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#233 2007-10-12 21:57:49

samy
Member
From: Turku, Finland
Registered: 2006-01-25
Posts: 180
Website

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

Answer me this Samy, what is the most prevalent language in the Western Hemisphere? The Spanish got here first, and because of that, they got the largest chunk of the New World

The most prevalent. *Not* the only language.

The largest chunk. *Not* the only chunk.

What I'm concerned about is a Solar System that's mostly Chinese, a Chinese Mars, and a Chinese Moon

Why would that be cause for concern? There's still more than ample space for every other country that wants to stake a claim. There's going to be more room in the solar system than the western hemisphere's countries can colonize on any kind of relevant time scale.

You seem to be obsessed with wanting to be *the* biggest civilization in space. It's an ancient game of one-upmanship, and I personally like to think we humans can transcend the childish "us vs them" mindset and realize that it's going to take the effort of *all* our globe's nations to be able to colonize even one percent of the available space.

For every country that wants to go, there will be as much room as they want to take. Anything the Chinese take, is not any less for us. It's a virtually unlimited pie. It's not going to run out.

No, I don't want to go to War with China, but I want my country to have its peace of the pie.

And as long as that's what America wants to do, it will have that piece. There's nothing -- absolutely nothing -- stopping them, even if China already has gone to space.

If America is concerned with terrorism and healthcare, social security and the rest while China wants to spread throughout the Solar System, which culture wins out in the end?

All of us. Having a solid well-developed society on this planet will be a great fallback for those who want safety, and having a space-colonizing society off-planet will be a great way for the more pioneer minded people to get their kicks. As long as we're all happy, everybody wins.

Or do you think, say, Swedish people are terribly unhappy right now because they're not the biggest country in the world? You don't have to be the biggest dog on the turf to be perfectly happy with yourself.

You seem to think that the US *has* to be bigger than China, or the world will end or something. Perhaps it's a result of the US having played such a major role in the world for so long, but it hasn't always been like that, and I guarantee, sometime in the future it will lose its number one status. And that won't be the end of the world. Maybe then America will learn, like ~200 other countries already know, that there's nothing wrong with being just "one of the gang".

It's kind of arrogant to think that only your own country has the right to be #1.

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#234 2007-10-13 14:00:20

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

We're a few years away having worry about competing with the Red Colonies, even if the Chinese beat us to the moon. But it would be very dangerous to underestimate the prestige effect of being the 1st to establish the first off world colony, so much more than the first new world colony due to the technological prowess required. It has a tremendous power to validate the superiority of the political system and culture that founds it.

I believe that it is vital to the future of humanity that when we do finally take that step, it is not done for the purpose of settling old Earth scores. This can only be done by a system originating not from the territorial, cultural, ethnic, or, economic, or political claims of the past, but based on the fundamental rights and responsibilities of all of humanity.

Then there is the concept of Leading Society. If the Chinese establish a large presence on the Moon, then immigrants that come afterwards are going to have to learn Chinese and Chinese customs in order to function in that pre-existing society, that pre-existing society will inpart be determined by the orginal colonizers. If we sit on our duffs to too long we may regret it.

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#235 2007-10-13 14:03:37

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

It has a tremendous power to validate the superiority of the political system and culture that founds it.

Only in regards to the specific thing accomplished. If China can beat the US in a space race, it implies a dictatorship is better *for a space race*. However, it doesn't say anything about other things. If China can beat the US in a space race, it has no bearing whatsoever on whether China is better in GDP, populace happiness quotient, birth rate or anything else. Getting to the moon first only proves a dictatorship's superiority in pursuing space -- nothing else.

We can adopt a position of "moral superiority" while the Chinese adopts physical superiority and occupies most of the Solar System, thus laughing at us. We can kid ourselves that there are more inportant things than getting there first with the most, but that's mainly a consolation prize that we'd use to make ourselves feel better after losing to the Chinese.

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#236 2007-10-13 14:30:32

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

Answer me this Samy, what is the most prevalent language in the Western Hemisphere? The Spanish got here first, and because of that, they got the largest chunk of the New World

The most prevalent. *Not* the only language.

Why settle for minority status if we don't have too? Things are yet to be determined in the Solar System. Spain was not the most populous country in the World but the Spanish LAnguage and Culture have come to dominate the Western Hemisphere due to actions Spain took in the 15th and 16th centuries while other nations attended to more domestic and continental concerns, such as Germany, Poland, Switzerland etc. Maybe they considered what Spain was doing to be not important, and maybe those other nations had more immediate concerns at the time, but they paid a price for their lack of initiative.

The largest chunk. *Not* the only chunk.

What I'm concerned about is a Solar System that's mostly Chinese, a Chinese Mars, and a Chinese Moon

Why would that be cause for concern? There's still more than ample space for every other country that wants to stake a claim. There's going to be more room in the solar system than the western hemisphere's countries can colonize on any kind of relevant time scale.

You seem to be obsessed with wanting to be *the* biggest civilization in space. It's an ancient game of one-upmanship, and I personally like to think we humans can transcend the childish "us vs them" mindset and realize that it's going to take the effort of *all* our globe's nations to be able to colonize even one percent of the available space.

American values consist of things like freedom of the individual and democracy. Chinese values tend towards conformity, and subordination. If you diminish America, you also diminish what America stands for. If an Empire rules over us all or Democracies are reduced to minor or bit players in the human sphere as they were in ancient times, is that really acceptable. China as of now is not democratic, the Party does whatever it likes and rules with impunity, do you really want such a system to be the dominant one in human civilization? It is not just America vs China, it is also what America represents vs what China represents, not simply a matter of routing for our team. If it doesn't matter whether you live under a democracy and have rights or you live under a authoritatian regime, then I guess it would not matter to you who wins the Space Race, but it does to me.

For every country that wants to go, there will be as much room as they want to take. Anything the Chinese take, is not any less for us. It's a virtually unlimited pie. It's not going to run out.

But if we do want to take, we'll have to go further to get it if China gets there first. The Moon is the closed body to us, if China gets really established there, they can claim it for themselves, UN treaty or no.

No, I don't want to go to War with China, but I want my country to have its peace of the pie.

And as long as that's what America wants to do, it will have that piece. There's nothing -- absolutely nothing -- stopping them, even if China already has gone to space.

If America is concerned with terrorism and healthcare, social security and the rest while China wants to spread throughout the Solar System, which culture wins out in the end?

All of us. Having a solid well-developed society on this planet will be a great fallback for those who want safety, and having a space-colonizing society off-planet will be a great way for the more pioneer minded people to get their kicks. As long as we're all happy, everybody wins.

Or do you think, say, Swedish people are terribly unhappy right now because they're not the biggest country in the world? You don't have to be the biggest dog on the turf to be perfectly happy with yourself.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Sweden at one time occupied by the Nazis during World War II? Being small has some disadvantages if there is not some big country looking out for you. Having one large democracy be the most powerful country in the World and leader of the free world makes things easier for smaller democracies such as Sweden. Now what if you replace the United States with China? Doesn't then Imperialism and authoritatianism become the predomanent political form over democracy then. If China is so wildly successful, aren't other people then giong to question democracy in their own country, or maybe see democracy as weak and incapable of protecting itself, and thus encourage those seeking its overthrow? To me democracy is the form of government for civilized countries, any other form is about some group or individual seizing power for themselves to rule over others without their input, there is something less civilized when government exists to serve itself and only incidentally serves the people while doing so?

You seem to think that the US *has* to be bigger than China, or the world will end or something. Perhaps it's a result of the US having played such a major role in the world for so long, but it hasn't always been like that, and I guarantee, sometime in the future it will lose its number one status. And that won't be the end of the world. Maybe then America will learn, like ~200 other countries already know, that there's nothing wrong with being just "one of the gang".

Do you have some other candidate in mind for being "leader of the free world", just being big and powerful isn't sufficient qualifications for being leader of the Free World. China can't be the leader of the Free World if its not democratic. I wouldn't mind if some other big and powerful democracy were the most powerful so it can protect the lesser democracies, the only problem is the next most powerful country in the World is China and its not democratic. Now if we play second fiddle to some Empire, we may "learn" alright just like some ~200 other countries that may also be conquered by that Empire. Empires have a tendency to want to expand and incorporate others into themselves, because the larger they are, the more power they bring to the Emperor. Just ask what the Romans did to the Ancient Israelis - the Romans did not allow them to remain outside their sphere of influence and they eventually distroyed that country. It better to be powerful and to rely on yourself than to depend on some other patron to go rescue you when you are in trouble. Europe has been under the protection of the United States for too long and they wonder why we Americans can't be just like them and rely on some greater power for protection.

It's kind of arrogant to think that only your own country has the right to be #1.

I never claimed it was our right, but we as the leading most powerful democracy must at least be compedative with other government forms and not submit to the Empire.

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#237 2007-10-13 18:36:25

Commodore
Member
From: Upstate NY, USA
Registered: 2004-07-25
Posts: 1,021

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

It has a tremendous power to validate the superiority of the political system and culture that founds it.

Only in regards to the specific thing accomplished. If China can beat the US in a space race, it implies a dictatorship is better *for a space race*. However, it doesn't say anything about other things. If China can beat the US in a space race, it has no bearing whatsoever on whether China is better in GDP, populace happiness quotient, birth rate or anything else. Getting to the moon first only proves a dictatorship's superiority in pursuing space -- nothing else.

Well, space is kind of big, isn't it? In every sense of the word.


"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane

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#238 2007-10-13 18:57:03

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

It has a tremendous power to validate the superiority of the political system and culture that founds it.

Only in regards to the specific thing accomplished. If China can beat the US in a space race, it implies a dictatorship is better *for a space race*. However, it doesn't say anything about other things. If China can beat the US in a space race, it has no bearing whatsoever on whether China is better in GDP, populace happiness quotient, birth rate or anything else. Getting to the moon first only proves a dictatorship's superiority in pursuing space -- nothing else.

Well, space is kind of big, isn't it? In every sense of the word.

But most of space is empty vacuum, the parts of space we are most interested in are the Moon, Mars, and the Asteroids.
China might possible seize control of the Moon, and Mars, which would leave us just the asteroids, but the asteroids are hard to defend as they are spread all throughout the Solar System. To defend each asteroid would require a point defense of each specific asteroid. The Moon and Mars are inherently easier to defend if acquired as they are compact objects, while asteroid colonies will always be vulnerable to attack unless armed like a fortress.

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#239 2007-10-14 00:04:00

samy
Member
From: Turku, Finland
Registered: 2006-01-25
Posts: 180
Website

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

But most of space is empty vacuum, the parts of space we are most interested in are the Moon, Mars, and the Asteroids.

Speak for yourself. I am most interested in Venus, Lagrange points and Titan.

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#240 2007-10-14 00:08:52

samy
Member
From: Turku, Finland
Registered: 2006-01-25
Posts: 180
Website

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

Why settle for minority status if we don't have too?

Why stress about whether you're a majority or a minority? How about just doing your best, and letting the chips fall where they may. I am a firm believer in telling an Olympic athlete who came in third, "you did your best, and that's anybody can ask of you". Not "wow, you settled for third place, you suck". It's not a question of "settling" for anything. You think a bronze medalist "settled" for the third place? They did their best, and calling it "settling" is insulting.

You do the best you can. That's the important thing. Whether you end up being first, third, or tenth is of no consequence. Only that you did your best.

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#241 2007-10-14 07:45:17

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

Why settle for minority status if we don't have too?

Why stress about whether you're a majority or a minority? How about just doing your best, and letting the chips fall where they may. I am a firm believer in telling an Olympic athlete who came in third, "you did your best, and that's anybody can ask of you". Not "wow, you settled for third place, you suck". It's not a question of "settling" for anything. You think a bronze medalist "settled" for the third place? They did their best, and calling it "settling" is insulting.

You do the best you can. That's the important thing. Whether you end up being first, third, or tenth is of no consequence. Only that you did your best.

That's after the fact, but the truth is all Olympic Athletes compete for the Gold, only when that becomes impossible do they try for the solver or bronze, likewise the race for space is not decided yet. I don't want NASA shooting for the "Silver" or the "Bronze" when it can still get the "Gold". Also NASA is ahead of the race right now, what I hear being advocated is NASA slowing down and letting the Chinese pass us, that's what I don't like. What you never hear is young atheletes who say, "All my life I always wanted to win the Bronze metal in the Olympics," Its always the gold they go for, and they only accept the runners up positions when that goal becomes impossible for them.

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#242 2007-10-14 08:41:33

samy
Member
From: Turku, Finland
Registered: 2006-01-25
Posts: 180
Website

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

Of course everybody would *like* to be #1, but it ain't bad to be #2 or #3 either.

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#243 2007-10-14 08:56:09

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

Of course everybody would *like* to be #1, but it ain't bad to be #2 or #3 either.

#1 is always your goal when you compete, you may end up at #2 or #3, but when you start out you always aim high, that's what I don't like about our Administrator or politicians conceding defeat even before the race has actually begun. I have no real problem with the Chinese, but I root for my country first, just as I'm sure you'd root for yours. I just don't like the sound of our politicians and policy makers "giving up the ghost" instead of trying harder. Were not a country of losers, and people who are not willing to try are losers in my book. Competition is all about winning, if you don't try to win, your not really competing. If I was Finnish, I'd figure I'd have more in common with the United States than the Chinese, but that's just me. If the Finns had a likely prospect of getting to the Moon first and I was Finnish, I'd root for my country. I think that's perfectly natural, don't you?

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#244 2007-10-14 09:22:12

Commodore
Member
From: Upstate NY, USA
Registered: 2004-07-25
Posts: 1,021

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

Why settle for minority status if we don't have too?

Why stress about whether you're a majority or a minority? How about just doing your best, and letting the chips fall where they may. I am a firm believer in telling an Olympic athlete who came in third, "you did your best, and that's anybody can ask of you". Not "wow, you settled for third place, you suck". It's not a question of "settling" for anything. You think a bronze medalist "settled" for the third place? They did their best, and calling it "settling" is insulting.

You do the best you can. That's the important thing. Whether you end up being first, third, or tenth is of no consequence. Only that you did your best.

We're not talking about a hunk metal and a place in the history books here. We're talking about preserving the fundamental rights of mankind, possibly for generations, and millions, if not billions of lives.

If dictators are allowed to reap the bounties of space while we twiddle our thumbs over hurting said dictators feelings, it's our kids who will pay the price.


"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane

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#245 2007-10-14 09:22:52

samy
Member
From: Turku, Finland
Registered: 2006-01-25
Posts: 180
Website

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

#1 is always your goal when you compete

Not really. For example, with my studies right now, I am 100% certain that I'll never be the #1 student in my class, but that doesn't mean I give up the whole thing and go home, because there are still rewards for the students who aren't #1. Just like space will have plenty, plenty of rewards for all the civilizations who aren't #1.

How I view university is pretty analogous to how I view the space race. *Everybody* who makes it to the end will be rewarded. Maybe the #1 more than the most, but the main goal -- the diploma, or colonization -- is attainable by all, regardless of whether they're #1 or #100. The standing is unimportant in the long run.

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#246 2007-10-14 09:28:43

samy
Member
From: Turku, Finland
Registered: 2006-01-25
Posts: 180
Website

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

We're talking about preserving the fundamental rights of mankind, possibly for generations, and millions, if not billions of lives.

And you can preserve them perfectly well regardless of what the Chinese do. Their colonization efforts in no way weaken ours.

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#247 2007-10-14 10:50:24

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

#1 is always your goal when you compete

Not really. For example, with my studies right now, I am 100% certain that I'll never be the #1 student in my class, but that doesn't mean I give up the whole thing and go home, because there are still rewards for the students who aren't #1. Just like space will have plenty, plenty of rewards for all the civilizations who aren't #1.

How I view university is pretty analogous to how I view the space race. *Everybody* who makes it to the end will be rewarded. Maybe the #1 more than the most, but the main goal -- the diploma, or colonization -- is attainable by all, regardless of whether they're #1 or #100. The standing is unimportant in the long run.

You can never be 100% certain of anything. All the best students in your class may suddenly come down with the flu and be unable to attend class during the test, leaving yourself as the number one ranking student. Besides I often find that those who shoot for #1 often end up in third or fourth place, but those who aim at third often end up as sixth or seventh.

If your goal is just to graduate from college and pass your courses, that may not be enough to get your choice career as employers often look at your grade point average that you achieved in college, and I'm drawing on my own experiences in college and in the employment world. Sometimes just having passed and graduated is not enough, especially when you are competing with other college graduates. The competition does not end with college I'm sorry to say. I find the world to be a rather unforgiving place with regards to careers, that's why I drive limousines for a living rather than what I wanted to do when I went to college. I passed my courses and I graduated, but that was not enough and on top of that, I owe money for my college loans. The one thing I do take pride in is the fact that my country is #1 in alot of things, and it really disturbs me when Administration officials have a "C-Student" mentality when it comes to the space race.

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#248 2007-10-14 11:00:09

samy
Member
From: Turku, Finland
Registered: 2006-01-25
Posts: 180
Website

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

Well, I have a more optimistic view of the world than you evidently do. smile

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#249 2007-10-14 12:16:45

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

I'm neither optimistic nor pessimistic, just realistic. At the top of my government I want the best people, not people like me that just get by, but the best people. There are 300 million Americans, and I think we deserve better than "Joe Average C-Student".

When I was a kid, I wanted to be an astronaut, but I was knocked out of the competition when I called the Air force to see if they required 20/20 vision for their test pilots, and of course they did, and I require corrective lenses and there was no eye surgery in those days that could correct your vision. So I attempted to go into space as a mission specialist. I tried for a Undergraduate degree in Physics, I didn't ground myself in calculus, and I had a miserable time in Physics class following all those derivations, so I changed my degree to Econimics because the math was easier. I got a degree in Economics and went looking for a job with just that, however my GPA was weighed down with my previous pursuit in Physics, my dabblings with creative writing and my disagreements with the professor about the origins of the Cold War and who started it, I contended that the Soviets started the Cold War, and so I failed that class, seemed obvious to me at that time and I still believe that to be the case, but politics and academic unfortunately coincide sometimes and we have here some vestiges of the old Soviet system of propaganda and re enducation in this country, too many radical long-haired hippies got their PhDs and decided to teach in colleges, and I was one of their victims.

I got a masters degree in Computer Science hoping that it would remedy my inability to get a meaningful job, it did not, so now I find myself driving limosines for a living, but I still read alot of stuff on science and space travel, and I contribute to these forums in whatever way I can.

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#250 2007-10-15 02:24:44

EuroLauncher
Member
From: Europe
Registered: 2005-10-19
Posts: 299

Re: Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first

Chang’e II looks like it will deploy a robotic lunar lander

I don't think the PRC could make it to Mars before the Russians or US if they tried. If they made a serious push, either NASA the ESA or both together would probly mount a crash program to get there first. China still has no manned space experience, no experience with HLV's, interplanetary probes, and very little experience in space in general. I would hate for them to go there first, have an accident, kill the crew, and discourage others from going.

If the Commies were there, I would sure bring some way for the crew to defend themselves to Mars, you could never be sure they wouldn't try something if it hit the fan. "Our reactor failed, we're taking yours"

Have you looked at the latest GDP figures for China? Its now $8 trillion compared to $12.5 trillion for the United States. Seems to me that if this trend continues, China will overtake the USA as the largest Superpower sometime in the second decade of the 21st century. Worst of all, do you want some Dictator taking the position as the top Dog in the Chinese Century? What will happen to the free world in that case. I think we should take the opportunity and grab hold of Mars while we are still ahead. Once China passes us, there is no catching back  up. We have a window of opportunitystretching from now until 2020, if we pass it up and find, "better things to spend our money on", then China will dominate space for the next century, we'll all have to learn that very difficult language of Chinese and their thousand character alphabet and learn how to bow to their communist emperor. I think we should try to break out into space and leave our mark on human history before the World becomes part of the Chinese Empire.

How China Negotiates With Kidnappers
http://www.rense.com/general78/howchina.htm

The National party congress is going on now in China

I wonder if space exploration will be mentioned ?

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007- … 884411.htm

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