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atomoid

Member

From: Santa Cruz, CA

Registered: 2004-02-13

Posts: 252

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

(Spirit) Operations think descending the crater is not worth the risk, they don't see anything interesting enough... they're going to head to the hills instead!
(After some more picture taking and Mossbauering, i hope, the site *around* the crater is interesting enough...)

gosh i hope they dont leave without checking to see if there is a deep impact gouge left by the heatshield, might be deeper than anythign they can do with the wheels...

---

"I think it would be a good idea". - [url=http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Mahatma_Gandhi/]Mahatma Gandhi[/url], when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

I read somewhere (forgot where, New York post?) they will end the project somewhere mid spring, because money is running out... One of the drivers was quoted as saying something like 'I guess we'll turn off the lights and lock the doors... The rovers waiting for a signal that won't come... abandoned...'

So there's talk to end the mission *before* the rovers malfunction/freeze? Way to go...

Stu

Member

From: Kendal, Cumbria, England

Registered: 2001-09-04

Posts: 318

Website

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Some stunning new pics here... can even see some details on the hills... 

[http://www.keithlaney.com/SCI/CSIpan2.jpg]http://www.keithlaney.com/SCI/CSIpan2.jpg

[http://www.keithlaney.com/SCI/J6.jpg]http://www.keithlaney.com/SCI/J6.jpg

[http://www.keithlaney.com/SCI/S3.jpg]http://www.keithlaney.com/SCI/S3.jpg

---

Stuart Atkinson

Skywatching Blog: [url]http://journals.aol.com/stuartatk/Cumbrian-Sky[/url]

Astronomical poetry, including mars rover poems: [url]http://journals.aol.com/stuartatk/TheVerse[/url]

GraemeSkinner

Member

From: Eden Hall, Cumbria

Registered: 2004-02-20

Posts: 563

Website

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

I read somewhere (forgot where, New York post?) they will end the project somewhere mid spring, because money is running out... One of the drivers was quoted as saying something like 'I guess we'll turn off the lights and lock the doors... The rovers waiting for a signal that won't come... abandoned...'

So there's talk to end the mission *before* the rovers malfunction/freeze? Way to go...

I hope this does not prove to be the case, all the time and expense spent in getting the rovers up there only to leave them to fade away due to finance reasons back on Earth. You'd think they would have created a budget for the mission that would last, or at least a contingency allowance in case the mission lasts longer than they originally thought.

---

There was a young lady named Bright.
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day
in a relative way
And returned on the previous night.
--Arthur Buller--

Palomar

Member

From: USA

Registered: 2002-05-30

Posts: 9,734

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

I read somewhere (forgot where, New York post?) they will end the project somewhere mid spring, because money is running out... One of the drivers was quoted as saying something like 'I guess we'll turn off the lights and lock the doors... The rovers waiting for a signal that won't come... abandoned...'

So there's talk to end the mission *before* the rovers malfunction/freeze? Way to go...

I hope this does not prove to be the case, all the time and expense spent in getting the rovers up there only to leave them to fade away due to finance reasons back on Earth. You'd think they would have created a budget for the mission that would last, or at least a contingency allowance in case the mission lasts longer than they originally thought.

*I really, really doubt this (of course I don't want it to be true!), based on an article I quoted in my most recent post in this thread, i.e. the rovers are slated for a few months' more work and exploration.  The impression I got was that they're going to (quoting Byron) "drive them until they drop."

But then again, Bill has shared with us in a different thread (Free Chat, "It's not just Hubble") all the cuts in financing and etc., various programs are facing. 

Rik, if you find that article again, please post a link.  I'll be on the look-out. 

The last thing we need is the ax swinging down on these missions before they expire naturally! 

--Cindy

---

We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

GraemeSkinner

Member

From: Eden Hall, Cumbria

Registered: 2004-02-20

Posts: 563

Website

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

I'd think it would be bad PR for NASA just to shut down the mission when there's still life in the two rovers, unless they want to use it as PR to get more finance for future missions... "we could have done this if only we'd had the money". My gut tells me they'll have someone running those two rovers until they can't get any more out of them, if I was on the team, I'd probably work for nothing if they told me the money had run out. Lets hope the polotics of finance don't get in the way of science in this case.

---

There was a young lady named Bright.
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day
in a relative way
And returned on the previous night.
--Arthur Buller--

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Rik, if you find that article again, please post a link.  I'll be on the look-out.

...found it, at last... End of the article "The mission is scheduled to come to a pragmatic end sometime this spring, when the financing runs out. "At that point, I guess we'll just turn out the lights, lock the doors in here, and go on to something else," Mr. Wright said."

[http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/21/autom … ner=GOOGLE]http://www.nytimes.com/2004....=GOOGLE (NY Times w/o need for subscription...)

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

It would be a very silly thing to do... only the engineering info on what causes the eventual breakdown would be worth keeping track of 'em... The article has a 'weird' taste, like written half in jest, dunno...

Palomar

Member

From: USA

Registered: 2002-05-30

Posts: 9,734

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

It would be a very silly thing to do... only the engineering info on what causes the eventual breakdown would be worth keeping track of 'em... The article has a 'weird' taste, like written half in jest, dunno...

*Thanks Rik.

It sure does.  Seems like it (the article, the author, Mr. Wright) are engaging in a bit of theatricality, even hyperbole. 

My understanding is that the missions will end when the rovers can no longer function.  I hope that is a correct understanding.

I mistrust this article; hopefully rightfully so.

Graeme:  I'd work for free too, if it came down to that (I doubt it will, as per above).

--Cindy

---

We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

Stephen

Member

Registered: 2004-01-16

Posts: 68

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

It would be a very silly thing to do...

Granted.

On the other hand, it has happened before.  IIRC, the lunar ALSEPs were shut down before their use-by date was reached to try to save money. (And didn't the same thing happen to the Viking landers?)

=====
Stephen

---

======
Stephen

SohoBoy

Member

From: London

Registered: 2004-02-10

Posts: 42

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

It would be a very silly thing to do...

Granted.On the other hand, it has happened before.  IIRC, the lunar ALSEPs were shut down before their use-by date was reached to try to save money. (And didn't the same thing happen to the Viking landers?)
=====
Stephen

having spent hundreds of millions so far, I can't  believe that they won't run them into the ground.

The martian environment is not that well understood. The telemetry data recording exactly how the machinery degrades and fails will provide useful info for the design of equipment for future long term missions. If immobilisation occurs because of a drive motor failure,  the mini-tes could still be sending back useful weather info long after a lander has ground to a halt. Eventually, I suppose, dust storms will cover the solar cells to an extent that the computer does not have enough power to continue operating.

I (hope!) expect they will just progressively whittle down the staff to a skeleton crew

RobS

Banned

From: South Bend, IN

Registered: 2002-01-15

Posts: 1,701

Website

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

They are already planning the extended mission. I could see them shutting the MERs down if they lost mobility; then there would be nothing to photograph or grind. An article early in the week said they were cutting the staffing by a third and the staff no longer had to live on Mars time, and these changes were possible because they had learned how to operate them more efficiently.

                 -- RobS

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

I guess they will keep up a skeleton crew of ooperators to check now and then what's happening, like if they can't drive anymore, they could still for instance have meteo-data coming in etc.
Anyway i always thought the living on Mars time was a bit weird, must be really hard on the operators, they must get exhausted really quickly that way, making it a risk to make errors and all that...

Vikings 'lived' several years, now and then they checked if new info came in, like they were a remote weather-station. Same with the Pioneer and craft, wich were/are checked on a regular interval, not 24/7...

cassioli

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2004-02-23

Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

[http://www.nasa.gov/externalflash/m2k4/ … meset.html]Interactive Mars Rover site (flash)

Quite funny, but not for dial-up users!

Luca

Stu

Member

From: Kendal, Cumbria, England

Registered: 2001-09-04

Posts: 318

Website

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Okay, anyone care to guess what *this* is about..?

<< NASA ANNOUNCES MAJOR MARS ROVER FINDING

     NASA will announce a major scientific finding at a Space
Science Update (SSU) Tuesday at 2 p.m. EST, in the headquarters
Webb Auditorium, 300 E St. SW, Washington. The Mars Exploration
Rover (MER) Opportunity is exploring the martian Meridiani
Planum and recently discovered evidence rocks at the landing
site have been altered by water.

NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe will make opening remarks. SSU
panelists:

--Dr. Ed Weiler, NASA's Associate Administrator, Office of
Space Science
--Prof. Steve Squyres, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y., and
MER Principal Investigator
--Prof. John Grotzinger, Massachusetts Institute of Technology,
Cambridge, Mass, and a MER Co-investigator
--Dr. Dave Rubin, U.S. Geological Survey Sedimentologist at the
Pacific Science Center in Santa Cruz, Calif.
--Dr. Jim Garvin, NASA Lead Scientist for Mars and the Moon,
Office of Space Science, NASA Headquarters >>

Look at the list of panellists...  a sedimentologist?

Thoughts anyone..? 

---

Stuart Atkinson

Skywatching Blog: [url]http://journals.aol.com/stuartatk/Cumbrian-Sky[/url]

Astronomical poetry, including mars rover poems: [url]http://journals.aol.com/stuartatk/TheVerse[/url]

Palomar

Member

From: USA

Registered: 2002-05-30

Posts: 9,734

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Okay, anyone care to guess what *this* is about..?

<< NASA ANNOUNCES MAJOR MARS ROVER FINDING

     NASA will announce a major scientific finding at a Space
Science Update (SSU) Tuesday at 2 p.m. EST, in the headquarters
Webb ...
Look at the list of panellists...  a sedimentologist?

Thoughts anyone..? 

*The "blueberries" are petrified fungi.

--Cindy

---

We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Heehee... *very* wild guesses, but i was puzzled this weekend why Opp didn't leave the crater, so i pored over the pics, and was amazed about all the sperules and not-so-spherical-anymore sperules they kept photographing, how a non-trivial number had tiny holes in them... Some of these things were definitely not sherical (anymore?)
Then one of the last sols they imagined a closeup that was blurry, despite the fact there were 3 shots in a row, weird, did they remove one, what was in it (looks like a microscopic image, plain sand with a sprinkle of bigger stuff, but too out-of focus to make out anything special...
... And then... one pic (sol 55,) [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1M1330 … 1.JPG.html]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1M1330 … 1.JPG.html with some *things*... half buried small spherical, half shiny... dunno, but they took **a lot** of pics of that otherwise unassuming pile of sand... this last one is the last in the series... Might start seeing things, but it made me wonder...

cassioli

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2004-02-23

Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

I eventually found the photo I thought to when I first saw Opportunity's outcrop photos:

Take a look at it... and then take a look at the [http://jumpjack.altervista.org/immagini … treet2.jpg]full photo where this detail was taken from! 

Just an hypothesis... quite sciencefictious, perhaps, but...

Luca

GraemeSkinner

Member

From: Eden Hall, Cumbria

Registered: 2004-02-20

Posts: 563

Website

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Heehee... *very* wild guesses, but i was puzzled this weekend why Opp didn't leave the crater, so i pored over the pics, and was amazed about all the sperules and not-so-spherical-anymore sperules they kept photographing, how a non-trivial number had tiny holes in them... Some of these things were definitely not sherical (anymore?)

I can't remember how long the rover was supposed to be in the crater to start with, I know they have said that they encountered difficulties when they tried to leave the crater and are looking for an alternative route out.
I don't think they would hold another press briefing on 'major' findings just to restate the water findings, so hopefully its something else - *life* would be nice, or at least signs of past life.

---

There was a young lady named Bright.
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day
in a relative way
And returned on the previous night.
--Arthur Buller--

Stu

Member

From: Kendal, Cumbria, England

Registered: 2001-09-04

Posts: 318

Website

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Re tomorrow's news... imagination's running riot here... 

Some random thoughts tho...

* Can't help thinking it is something that actually justifies the use of the term "major" because Sean O'Keefe himself is MC'ing... did he introduce the big announcement about El Capitan being "drenched" by water in the past? I can't remember...

* We've all been frustrated about Opportunity's reluctance to get out of the crater... this could explain why.

* There has been a LOT of attention paid to the "blueberries" over the past week - the JPL guys really seemed to leap towards the "berry bowl" they found. I'm convinced the announcement is something to do with the berries. Not sure if I go for your "fungus" theory Cindy, but wow, wouldn't that be something... 

What's everyone else thinking?

---

Stuart Atkinson

Skywatching Blog: [url]http://journals.aol.com/stuartatk/Cumbrian-Sky[/url]

Astronomical poetry, including mars rover poems: [url]http://journals.aol.com/stuartatk/TheVerse[/url]

GraemeSkinner

Member

From: Eden Hall, Cumbria

Registered: 2004-02-20

Posts: 563

Website

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Just a reminder to those of you with access to Sky News active (so probably not available too far outside UK), that last time NASA held a briefing on the Mars Rovers, it was covered in full on the interactive part of Sky News, unsure if they are going to do this again - and I only found it at the last minute after watching Fox and CNN last time.

---

There was a young lady named Bright.
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day
in a relative way
And returned on the previous night.
--Arthur Buller--

SohoBoy

Member

From: London

Registered: 2004-02-10

Posts: 42

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Okay, anyone care to guess what *this* is about..?

<< NASA ANNOUNCES MAJOR MARS ROVER FINDING
<snip>

Look at the list of panellists...  a sedimentologist?

Thoughts anyone..? 

Hmm...

wild guess...bedding structure = underwater deposition, and not just water percolating thru rocks at some time.

hope they also have something to say about the 'interesting' soil properties, on which theyve been remarkably quiet

knowing me, you can call me  a fule tomorrow

Link

Banned

From: Mt. Vernon, OH

Registered: 2004-02-02

Posts: 16

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

She's out!

[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 7R0M1.HTML]She's out

Link

Michael Bloxham

Member

From: Auckland, New Zealand

Registered: 2002-03-31

Posts: 426

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Yeehaa!    :laugh:

---

- Mike,  Member of the [b][url=http://cleanslate.editboard.com]Clean Slate Society[/url][/b]

Stu

Member

From: Kendal, Cumbria, England

Registered: 2001-09-04

Posts: 318

Website

Re: Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

She's out!

Yaay!!! Go get em gal!!!!   

5.30am here in the UK, sky is a gorgeous silvery blue outside... It's going to be a looooooong day waiting for that Press Conference today... 

---

Stuart Atkinson

Skywatching Blog: [url]http://journals.aol.com/stuartatk/Cumbrian-Sky[/url]

Astronomical poetry, including mars rover poems: [url]http://journals.aol.com/stuartatk/TheVerse[/url]