New Mars Forums

Julius Caeser

Member

From: Malta

Registered: 2004-03-25

Posts: 105

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Excuse my ignorance but is it not possible that Methane in Martian atmosphere could arise from photochemical reactions between carbon dioxide,water with incoming UV light?Same thing happens on a bigger scale in Titans atmosphere!
???

cassioli

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2004-02-23

Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Excuse my ignorance but is it not possible that Methane in Martian atmosphere could arise from photochemical reactions between carbon dioxide,water with incoming UV light?Same thing happens on a bigger scale in Titans atmosphere!
???

I think Titan as active volcanoes... or not?  ???

Julius Caeser

Member

From: Malta

Registered: 2004-03-25

Posts: 105

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

There is no evidence as yet or i dont recall myself of anything being mentioned of volcanoes being a source for methane on Titan except UV light interacting with Titans upper atmosphere.

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Bye, Bye, lil' crater! [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1N1336 … 1.JPG.html]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1N1336 … 1.JPG.html

Julius, on Mars UV actually decomposes methane, weird that it does otherwise around Titan... Anybody an idea?
And wich darker areas do you refer to? the whole region or smaller spots?

cassioli

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2004-02-23

Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

[http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA05633.jpg]Summary of Opportunity's path into the crater

[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … R1_br2.jpg]Leaving the crater

(3d anaglyphs)

Luca

atajurk

Member

From: ljubljana, slovenia

Registered: 2004-02-08

Posts: 15

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

NY seems to be bleeding

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

There's a discussion on Slashdot going on about the Methane discovery ( [http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl? … hreshold=3]link .) Of course, 90% jokes about beans etc... I had 5 fresh moderatorpoints, and did my best to mod the most interesting comments up... (not the bean-jokes) but it's a trickle in the ocean...

"The leader of the ground based astronomy team, Michael Mumma of the Goddard Space Flight Center, when asked if the methane was biological in origin, said 'I think it is, myself personally"

atajurk

Member

From: ljubljana, slovenia

Registered: 2004-02-08

Posts: 15

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

here is "bloody" picture

[http://mywebpage.netscape.com/atafrancelj/RAT.jpg]look

Julius Caeser

Member

From: Malta

Registered: 2004-03-25

Posts: 105

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Cassioli,dark area i was referring to whole meridiani and other areas like acidalia....regarding UV and methane..yes prolly UV does decompose methane but in the mean time it should produce it as well..the net balance depends on whether more methane is destroyed or produced ..i guess..any thoughts!?

cassioli

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2004-02-23

Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

NY seems to be bleeding

[http://mywebpage.netscape.com/atafrancelj/RAT.jpg]http://mywebpage.netscape.com/atafrancelj/RAT.jpg

I think you should convert your image to a link, as I noticed not all users of this forum has a broad band connection...

Anyway, I didn't understand the meaning of your post. ???

Luca

cassioli

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2004-02-23

Posts: 218

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

[http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/scie … overs.html]Extended missions confirmed!

Link

Banned

From: Mt. Vernon, OH

Registered: 2004-02-02

Posts: 16

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Cassioli,

I believe this [http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 4L7M1.HTML]Bleeding shows the 'bleeding' better. Hope thats not some kind of rover 'leak'. I think nasa is thinking the same thing. [http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 7L0M1.HTML]leak

Link

atomoid

Member

From: Santa Cruz, CA

Registered: 2004-02-13

Posts: 252

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

It looks more like a solid polish layer to the rock than a liquid (all smooth and shiny, with chips broken off, think [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/2M1336 … 1.JPG.html]Obsidian).

...or the results of a leak, maybe the RAT drooled as it bit into the New York steak, and the rock flour has mixed to form a polishing paste, polishing the specimen, but also hopelessly gumming up the RAT? (ugh, i shouldnt have thought that... oh now i did it, its all my fault, undesired subliminal telekinesis sucks... )

I always thought they would have some type of oil or another wheel to polish the rock surface to get better definition contrast of the grain structure, but they would have surely used it by now, maybe that was too impractical or was made obsolete by the spectrometer abilities?

or.... look near the top of the image, [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/2M1336 … 1.JPG.html]the little black hole at the top is really an "oil hole" that is leaking now that the RAT has drilled and opened the seal, spilling the Martain "black oil" and releasing deadly martian spores that had lain dormant for eons. proving that this rock is another eroded peice of ancient machinery like Hoagland was ranting about back in January!

---

"I think it would be a good idea". - [url=http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Mahatma_Gandhi/]Mahatma Gandhi[/url], when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

brthrjon

Member

From: Jacksonville, Fl

Registered: 2004-01-24

Posts: 9

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Do you know what confuses me? What was first - the Eagle crater or water in the same location?
If the crater then water (sea) could'nt be there too long. The crater would be probably much more eroded (just like craters on Earth).
If water then how can it be possible that we can see almost intact outcrop with clear water engravings on it? The impact, which would create the crater later, would crush and melt it down.

My guess:

The blue berries we're embeeded in the matrix and the matrix has been eroded by wind (sandblasted), leaving the blue berries.  This also explains the state of the outcrop.

Just a guess.

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

brthrjon, yes, essentially because the sperules are 'iron' thus harder than the rock... But that still leaves (me) puzzled why the rock structure itself isn't smashed to smithereens by the impactcrater... So crater before sea... but that still makes no sense, because then there aaaarrrr (mindmelt-again...)

atajurk

Member

From: ljubljana, slovenia

Registered: 2004-02-08

Posts: 15

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Is there some kind of trouble?

[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 59M1M1.JPG]microscopic image

Julius Caeser

Member

From: Malta

Registered: 2004-03-25

Posts: 105

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

atajurk, Can  you please identify the site from where u're getting these pics coz i havent seen them on any of the Nasa/JPL sites?

atajurk

Member

From: ljubljana, slovenia

Registered: 2004-02-08

Posts: 15

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

This is an official JPL mars rovers site

[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov

SBird

Banned

Registered: 2004-03-10

Posts: 490

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Hard to say, it could just be an image where the autofocus or something was way off.  When was the picture taken?  If there's been good microscopic imager pictures since then, I wouldn't worry.  If this is the most recent picture, it might be time to get concerned.

atajurk

Member

From: ljubljana, slovenia

Registered: 2004-02-08

Posts: 15

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

julius, if you mean "bleeding" picture, I made that mosaic from Spirit raw microscopis images (not exactly a quality one)

atajurk

Member

From: ljubljana, slovenia

Registered: 2004-02-08

Posts: 15

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

SBird, this is one of today's raw microscopis images. Maybe some leak contaminated the lens.

SohoBoy

Member

From: London

Registered: 2004-02-10

Posts: 42

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

It looks more like a solid polish layer to the rock than a liquid (all smooth and shiny, with chips broken off, think [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/2M1336 … 1.JPG.html]Obsidian).

...or the results of a leak, maybe the RAT drooled as it bit into the New York steak, and the rock flour has mixed to form a polishing paste, polishing the specimen, but also hopelessly gumming up the RAT? (ugh, i shouldnt have thought that... oh now i did it, its all my fault, undesired subliminal telekinesis sucks... )

I always thought they would have some type of oil or another wheel to polish the rock surface to get better definition contrast of the grain structure, but they would have surely used it by now, maybe that was too impractical or was made obsolete by the spectrometer abilities?

or.... look near the top of the image, [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/2M1336 … 1.JPG.html]the little black hole at the top is really an "oil hole" that is leaking now that the RAT has drilled and opened the seal, spilling the Martain "black oil" and releasing deadly martian spores that had lain dormant for eons. proving that this rock is another eroded peice of ancient machinery like Hoagland was ranting about back in January!

Very weird...my take... on the right is the flat ground surface produced by the RAT...on the left the ground surface has flaked away to reveal a totally homogenous 'bedding plane' with gentle ripples, of what looks like a dark smooth waxy substance... who knows...hydrocarbon?

whatever ...very odd looking

SBird

Banned

Registered: 2004-03-10

Posts: 490

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Having had experience with microscopic digital imaging, this picture is disturbing.  I hope that someone just forgot to focus correctly but is looks like something is SERIOUSLY FUBARed.  Hopefully, it's just something mechanical stuck the can fix through cycling of the mechanisms.  If it's a problem with the CCD or image amplifier, it's basically toast.

atomoid

Member

From: Santa Cruz, CA

Registered: 2004-02-13

Posts: 252

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Having had experience with microscopic digital imaging, this picture is disturbing.  I hope that someone just forgot to focus correctly but is looks like something is SERIOUSLY FUBARed.  Hopefully, it's just something mechanical stuck the can fix through cycling of the mechanisms.  If it's a problem with the CCD or image amplifier, it's basically toast.

Its odd that NASA hasnt commented on the odd pictures, especially if it were a problem with the tool, and it seems they have gone on to other tasks: It seems [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/2M1338 … 1.JPG.html]these latest MI images might be about getting some sort of atmospheric particulate data by occulting the sun with the tool and reading the diffraction of particulates in the atmosphere, thats what it looks like a bit anyway... If indeed the RAT has a leak, it might not be a "failed UniBus address register", but [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snafu]SNAFU or TARFU

But that still leaves (me) puzzled why the rock structure itself isn't smashed to smithereens by the impactcrater... So crater before sea...

Alternatively, the crater may have indeed been seriously smashed to smithereens and have been formed long after the ancient spherule-laden sediments were lain down, this would assume the erosion has exhumed and removed the areas where the impact had melted and shattered the bedrock, which seems to be consistent with the exhumed nature of the terrain seen all over Meridianni. consider this scenario:
1) sediments lain down and altered by liquid interaction, vugs, spherules, "fossils" and all forming over the eons.
2) meteor hits forming Eagle crater, exhuming and melting sediments to a certain depth
3) considerable time passes with more water intervention and altering of sediments (do impacts cool or warm mars?)
4) more eons of erosion take away several feet of surface, sand-blasting bedrock and exposing deeper features that were mostly unaltered by the impact, other than fracturing (we do see lots of cracks in the bedrock). However, erosion couldnt go too deep or there'd be no crater left to see...

Which brings me to a puzzling observation: The lack of rocks at Eagle crater and its general area.
The bedrock seems to degrade to a fine talc-like powder that quickly blows away and collects in places with less wind action as can be seen in [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P1336 … 1.JPG.html]these images Im betting they will determine the spectra of the white dust to be the same as that of the bedrock showing this white dust is just eroded bedrock. There are no chunks of bedrock on the surface because it erodes relatively quickly and would have long ago dissolved and blown away. The [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P1337 … 1.JPG.html]only lonely large rock we do see sitting on the surface is probably not crater ejecta, if this were an impact-thrown rock, shouldnt we be seeing many more of them strewn about, especially right next to a crater?? maybe they arent buried, and this rock is not an impact ejection. perhaps, given the probable climate, there was likely to be iceberg activity that carried rocks from elsewhere and deposited them in odd places far away just like what happens on Earth. therefore, the spectra taken of this rock should show it is unrelated to the bedrock or spherules. If it is related, shouldnt we be seeing lots and lots of rocks everywhere, especially considering that the Meridiani terrain appears to be getting gradually exhumed, and isnt being covered up by dust or sand to hide such debris. The wind should take away all light bedrock particles and leave a terrain of strewn rocks like what we see at Gusev and other sites. But if the sedimentary layers go deep enough, no rocks will be in reach of Eagle-guage meteor impacts. Therefore, it seems likely that Meridiani hosted a very very long-lived body of liquid water so there is likely to be a great depth of sediments that is still being exhumed. so the rocks that are underneath all these sediments may be like what we see at places like Gusev, but are still buried deep.. and i wonder how deep, hopefully well see some evidence at Endurance if wind erosion debris doesnt collect too deep there...but i'm not a geologist, this is task-chair speculation...

---

"I think it would be a good idea". - [url=http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Mahatma_Gandhi/]Mahatma Gandhi[/url], when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

SohoBoy

Member

From: London

Registered: 2004-02-10

Posts: 42

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Having had experience with microscopic digital imaging, this picture is disturbing.  I hope that someone just forgot to focus correctly but is looks like something is SERIOUSLY FUBARed.  Hopefully, it's just something mechanical stuck the can fix through cycling of the mechanisms.  If it's a problem with the CCD or image amplifier, it's basically toast.

looks like its pointing at the sun... and thats part of the robot arm in shot.  Why?..No idea... maybe just a mistake