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#126 2008-04-23 12:54:29

Vincent
Banned
From: North Carolina USA
Registered: 2008-04-13
Posts: 623

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Zydar

Come back to reality. Joseph P Skipper is an idiot. He takes things in reality and goes overboard.

Calm down son and learn the truth.

Vincent


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-Dana Johnson

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#127 2008-04-23 13:06:19

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Some quotes from Peter Smith, Phoenix PI,  during a Q&A on spacEurope blog

It is true that if the spacecraft footpad perches on a rock or is otherwise unstable, then the RA (ed: Robotic Arm) has the strength to move the lander. We often joke that landing on ice in low gravity will allow us to pull ourselves along the surface using the RA from rock to rock.

Discovering Martian life is beyond the goal of this mission. We are looking first to see if the Martian arctic is habitable: periodic liquid water, organic material (it could be from meteors), and energy sources available for power an organism.

The first week of the mission consists of taking images and preparing for gathering samples. At the end of the first week we expect to have delivered a surface sample to our TEGA instrument. The summer is our prime science opportunity and we expect to meet all our mission goals by September. As you might expect, the mission will continue longer than this up until solar conjunction in mid-November. Recovering operations after that in late December will be very difficult as the Sun is setting in this high arctic region. By February we expect that carbon dioxide ice is forming a thick layer around the lander and without heat Phoenix will not survive.

We have found a safe site with few boulders to insure a safe landing. However, it will not be free of cobbles and smaller pebbles. I am curious to see how these stones have weathered over time and whether they are aligned with the polygonal boundaries.

There are few slopes in the neighborhood and the horizon should look extremely flat, no hills. However, the site is far from boring. We are near a 10 km crater and should be on the ejecta blanket containing material brought to the surface from depth. We are also on the slope of a large volcano, Alba Patera and may encounter ash blown from the interior. Finally, the site is a shallow valley and has undergone erosion which may leave signatures.

We land just before summer solstice and the first few months of the mission have plenty of sunlight altho our power generation depends on the tilt of the lander which we cannot control. Our science team has many arguments about how ice might react when the overburden of soil is removed. We will try to force some of the ice to melt by putting it in the warmest place we can find--the lander deck, then imaging it as solar heating tries to melt it. The question is will it sublimate before melting?

Phoenix uses another variant of the Wind River VXWorks real time OS software, not the same as the MER mission. Missions try to gather as much heritage as possible in their designs--no one wants to start over again from the beginning. However, when new space-qualified computers come available sometimes there is little software heritage to be found.

We are flying an atomic force microscope built in Switzerland by Urs Staufer for the first time ever. This is a difficult instrument to fly because it is sensitive to vibration even the tiny vibes caused by temperature change and wind. It has worked well in the lab and during environmental tests giving a resolution of an amazing 100 nm per pixel.


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#128 2008-04-23 13:38:39

danajohnson
Member
From: Oklahoma, US
Registered: 2005-02-17
Posts: 6

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

To see this much orderliness in a photo from beyond Earth gives us an adjustment range requirement that beats the video game scenes and matches science fiction movie dramatization, for sure. I can't let them go often, as the common 'organic' shapeliness which transects many of the patterns is such a challenge to discount or interpret. I am still studying the colors of this section of PSP-002170-2485. Separating the bands in IAS viewer gives similar cross-trending pattern there, which I considered as transformed dunes, but the wind seemed to be coming from the right side, I believe. Often two distinct wind directions seem to dominate many Mars areas at varied times of year/weather, or, daily.
As to structures, I wouldn't know whether to look above or below the ground surface. Many of these polygon structures are many meters to hundreds of meters deep at crater exposures and along steep slopes. We can see the exposures at that depth, and I don't know what the maximum would be in such a cold environment where the materials tend to assemble in a crystalline state. The surface was built well below the freezing point of water apparently(possibly).
This is a reworked version of that area of the color JP2. The reduced red and blue tainting should be more believable, but many would prefer a view balanced toward gray, I am sure. This area appears to show some liquid erosion, or some other breaking of the formation of the polygon and angular assembly pattern, dispensed on top of the gross surface shapes, and is tens of feet deep in effective alteration of the surface. Looks to be small dunes and rock debris in the channel. The shaded side(left) may be steeper than the right side, and it may be this is the front of a layer of flowed material from a scene beyond the right side edge  of the color large JP2. Simple downslope runoff might be possible, but the other similar flat 'washouts' in the large image look much like fractures with moderated patterns less angular than the polygon type features.
Will the landing show any of these nearby? Even a small rover would be helpful in this complex scene.
The first image was a straight IAS viewer image. This was more balanced in color and low in contrast. It has been increased 25 points in contrast, and gamma raised to 1.10, giving a better view of the 'washout' slope, and the wash textures. The image was altered in  XNView photo editor after IAS viewer, as a JPG at 100% quality setting.
[img=http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/6714/cp11x66850y39000sz1to1skk6.th.jpg]

This image may be less informative than the prior, but is more believable, perhaps.
The scene in all images is showing a well organized trending of linear undulating lines(former dunes?), and polygons, some possibly older craters, all re-incorporated to the main organizing influence.
It's good to speak to you again.


tires bald, makes noise, still runs,

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#129 2008-04-23 13:54:39

Vincent
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From: North Carolina USA
Registered: 2008-04-13
Posts: 623

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

This is Dana’s image above.

You got you a real scientist. Talk to him

Vincent

2437335118_64c52d5452_o.jpg


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#130 2008-04-23 15:23:08

Vincent
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From: North Carolina USA
Registered: 2008-04-13
Posts: 623

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Zydar,

I just don’t get it brother. I am a plain English guy. Solarized? What has the sun got to do with it?

Vincent


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-Dana Johnson

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#131 2008-04-24 05:30:44

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Vincent, several of your messages have been removed, they were totally off topic. If you want to chat with people use PMs. Stay on topic.

Zydar, as you well know there is a topic for the discussion of such ideas as  "Martian building design" in Phoenix landing area imagery. In case you have forgotten, it is here. Your OT posts have also been removed.

Phoenix lands in 31 days


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#132 2008-04-24 08:31:08

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

phoenix10en_xxl.jpg
Key: 1 = SSI, 2 = RAC, 2a = scoop, 3 = MECA, 4 = TEGA, 5 = MET.
Note that TEGA is composed of two subsystems: TA (Thermal Analyzer, 4a) and EGA (Evolved Gas Analyzer, 4b)

*  Robotic Arm (RA), provided by JPL: The RA (configured with a scoop) allows digging down to 0.5 m into the soil
    * Robotic Arm Camera (RAC), provided by the Max-Planck-Institut für Sonnensystemforschung (MPS), Katlenburg-Lindau, Germany, in collaboration with the University of Arizona
    * Microscopy, Electrochemistry, and Conductivity Analyzer (MECA), provided by JPL with support from University of Neuchatel, Switzerland and MPS, Germany
    * Thermal and Evolved Gas Analyzer (TEGA) from University of Arizona and University of Texas, Dallas
    * Mars Descent Imager (MARDI) from Malin Space Science Systems (MSSS), California
    * Surface Stereoscopic Imager (SSI) from the University of Arizona with three radiometric calibration targets from the Niels Bohr Institute, Denmark
    * Meteorological Station (MET) including a Light Detection and Ranging (LIDAR) instrument and pressure/temperature sensors from the Canadian Space Agency as well as a Telltale (wind gauge) from the University of Aarhus, Denmark

More details from the Max Planck Institute Phoenix site


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#133 2008-04-24 09:54:55

Zydar
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From: UK
Registered: 2007-08-14
Posts: 74

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

I have to say that I am deeply offended by the removal of some images I posted on this thread. The images posted are directly related to one of the images that is still posted in this thread. Is there no democracy at all on this forum?

What I uploaded is visual research material and relates to surface objects that are showing in one of the images.

cIclops, I would like to ask you a question.

Have you ever examined any of the MGS-MOC or HiRISE images at close range and in minute detail?

If you had, you would know and understand that the visual information I post on this forum is true and not based on any form of speculation.

I am a serious visual researcher and I do not take kindly to people who interfere with genuine visual research material which I have spent many hours examining.

My visual research and the analysis of many objects found on the Martian surface has been recognized by learned institutions, so why will you not recognize my research work on this forum?

Surely, any material related to finding any structural objects on the surface of the planet would be of interested to the wider majority or, is it that the thinking on this forum by the moderators is that of an 'old school' following where no one is prepared to examine anything that looks like the real truth?

The information you moved is serious visual information. I placed it in this thread firstly, because it is relavent to the subject matter that is still posted here, and also to encourage some views from members who may have found the images interesting and worthy of further discussion.

Obviously. whether or not there are structural objects on Mars is a subject that you do not want discussed, not in this thread at least but, you are prepared to discuss lumps of rock which serve no purpose whatsoever.

If there was nothing to see in the images except dirt, boulders and rock there would be little interest shown and it would not be worthy of my time and patience. But when there is the possibility of an intelligent species living on the planet, the research becomes a completely different ball game!

What will you say if, in the future, it is confirmed that intelligent life-forms do exist on Mars and always have done. Will you then ackowledge that I was right or will you maintain that my research was only based on visual speculation?

Zydar

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#134 2008-04-24 10:42:09

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Zydar, this topic is for discussion about the Phoenix mission. Discussion about hypothetical alien artifacts in the landing area imagery takes places in the topic created for it. Respect these simple rules and your contributions will also be respected.

My previous statement about OT messages in this topic


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#135 2008-04-25 11:51:31

Vincent
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From: North Carolina USA
Registered: 2008-04-13
Posts: 623

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Phoenix will bring back Bio testing to the Martian surface since Viking over 30 years ago.

Oh, the possibilities. Mr. Hawking spoke this week about life in the cosmos. I am in complete agreement. Hope we find some critters.

http://newspaper.tmcvoice.com/index.php … &Itemid=54

Vincent


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I don't require agreement when presenting new ideas.

-Dana Johnson

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#136 2008-04-26 03:24:26

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Phoenix's instruments probably can't make a positive ID on Martian life unless it's glaringly obvious (growing/reproducing/highly complex organic molecules) - but that possibility is there. Just finding liquid water and all the necessary ingredients would be a great discovery.

ETA: 29 days


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#137 2008-04-26 05:12:49

Vincent
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From: North Carolina USA
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Posts: 623

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

The area Phoenix will land is even more exciting because of observed thermal swings just south of the ice pack.

Most people believe that Mars is a bitter cold place were temperatures never climb near the freezing point of pure water. I about fell out of my chair when the 2 year thermal data set was released by the rover team showing temps approaching +95F or +37C at both rover locations.

The Mars Odyssey thermal IR imaging showed temperatures in this area could reach 0C or +32F just off the ice pack . Now what makes this interesting is surface ice at and near the surface.

The count down to landing continues.

Vincent


Argument expected.
I don't require agreement when presenting new ideas.

-Dana Johnson

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#138 2008-04-27 06:39:33

Vincent
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From: North Carolina USA
Registered: 2008-04-13
Posts: 623

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

The life issue has been going on a while and the unmanned probes on Mars have found life already in my opinion. Phoenix has not arrived but the Mars Rovers have been there a while.

I started a thread in Life on Mars section with some interesting images on this subject. As cIclops said, it must be glaring.

Vincent


Argument expected.
I don't require agreement when presenting new ideas.

-Dana Johnson

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#139 2008-04-27 07:09:32

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Most people believe that Mars is a bitter cold place were temperatures never climb near the freezing point of pure water. I about fell out of my chair when the 2 year thermal data set was released by the rover team showing temps approaching +95F or +37C at both rover locations.

Are you sure about that, AFAIK maximum surface temperature on Mars is below zero - got a reference for that data?


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#140 2008-04-27 07:19:47

Vincent
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From: North Carolina USA
Registered: 2008-04-13
Posts: 623

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

CIclops,

Here are your links. You are not alone. Most people have not remained up to date on the new data sets and are still imagining Mars as a total ice bucket.

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/20070612.html

Vincent


Argument expected.
I don't require agreement when presenting new ideas.

-Dana Johnson

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#141 2008-04-27 07:55:33

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Thanks, that's very interesting. What's missing is the actual surface temperature as those measurements are from the rover itself. However it does indicate that surface temperature will also exceed zero °C at midday during the summer sols. This will warm the subsurface, so it's possible that the subsurface stays near zero even at night.


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#142 2008-04-30 13:23:08

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

phxedlgeometryhi7.jpg
EDL communications geometry

From: Mission Design Overview (PDF 7MB) - 29 Jun 2007

Minimum Mission Success
1. Land successfully on the surface of Mars and achieve a power safe state.
2. Acquire a partial 120° monochromatic panorama of the landing site.
3. Provide samples of the surface soil as well as samples from one depth beneath the surface to either TEGA or MECA wet chemistry.
4. If TEGA, analyze at least 2 soil samples to create a profile of H2O (in the form of hydrated minerals, adsorbed water, or possibly ice at the deepest level) and mineral abundances near the surface. It shall also analyze an atmospheric sample in its mass spectrometer.
5. If MECA, analyze the wet chemistry of 2 soil samples.
6. Document all non-atmospheric samples and their collection locations with images.

25 days!


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#143 2008-05-03 04:48:23

Zydar
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From: UK
Registered: 2007-08-14
Posts: 74

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

As well as collecting soil samples, let's hope that NASA will release authentic images of what the camera can see from the landing site location.

Zydar

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#144 2008-05-03 05:47:56

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

There will be a raw images webpage like the one available for MER, so images can be download, processed and interpreted as much you desire.

The first images will  be available online from Pat Woida soon after landing (about 5pm local time), but they will be looking at the solar arrays, masts and the landing pad. So not much of the surface will be visible. PHX has to wait for the next pass of ODY/MRO before it can relay data. The so called mission success panorama, a partial 120° monochromatic image, will be sent back within the first few sols.

22 days


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#145 2008-05-03 15:22:09

Vincent
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From: North Carolina USA
Registered: 2008-04-13
Posts: 623

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

I recon we got to put up with filters and interpretation

Vincent


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I don't require agreement when presenting new ideas.

-Dana Johnson

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#146 2008-05-04 12:17:57

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Mission Real-Time Simulation

Shows the main mission timeline events before landing and other data such as: Altitude above Mars, Speed relative to Mars and Distance to Landing. Note that arrival time on Mars is 30 seconds slower than the mission page.

Next mission event, Trajectory correction maneuver 4: in just 5 days


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#147 2008-05-04 18:10:34

dmuller
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2008-05-04
Posts: 14

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Thanks cIclops for the link. Entry Interface and Landing times are as advised by one of the DSN stations who received that info straight from the Phoenix team about 1 month ago and after the 13km shift of the landing ellipse. Note that there is an uncertainty in the landing time of +/- 30 secs due to uncertain atmospheric conditions. The countdown script assumes a nominal landing, on the dot and on the spot.

Interestingly enough the Phoenix mission site and the NASA Phoenix page  countdown clocks differ by 2 minutes ... which got me to seek further details in the first place. (Sorry cant post the links here because this is my first post to the forum and postings of links seems not possible yet.)


Spaceflight resources to share: Phoenix Real-Time Simulation. More soon ...

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#148 2008-05-05 05:09:51

Vincent
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From: North Carolina USA
Registered: 2008-04-13
Posts: 623

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

dmuller,

Welcome to the forum.

Vincent


Argument expected.
I don't require agreement when presenting new ideas.

-Dana Johnson

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#149 2008-05-05 05:17:12

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Yes, welcome dmuller!

And thank you for setting up such a useful page, seeing the mission events unfold as PHX cruises towards Mars is fascinating.

30 secs or even two minutes won't make a big difference for us smile

(we get a huge number of spammers, and of course the first thing they want to do is post a link - you ought to be able to post links now)


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#150 2008-05-05 16:29:01

Vincent
Banned
From: North Carolina USA
Registered: 2008-04-13
Posts: 623

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

It is 20 days if I can do math, let us pray.

Lord, do not let anything happen to that probe because Hort will drop dead.

Amen


Argument expected.
I don't require agreement when presenting new ideas.

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