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#101 2008-04-16 13:41:24

3488
Member
From: Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom
Registered: 2008-04-15
Posts: 23

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Hi ciclops, I will try again. Thank you for your patience with me. I can see that we will get on absolutely fine.

Yes I would love to see signs of life, though I doubt it very much with this mission (but you never, ever know). My concern if nothing else, it will be too cold.

However, the information to be gained from the trenching & the landscape panorama images, will give a very vivid view of the result of the  processes that made that landscape, chemical analysis should determine whether or not there was a marine environment in the very remote past, which may had supported life back then.

Lets try the Phoenix landing site(ish) image again. A 250 metre patch near the very centre of the landing ellipse. A different link this time.

A 250 metre patch near the very centre of the landing ellipse.

Andrew Brown.


"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.

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#102 2008-04-16 15:13:14

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Thank you for fixing the problem. Wow that is a BIG image. It would be helpful to know the source. If it was reduced to a width of 600 or 800 pixels it would not only be less to download but it could be directly displayed here  using the IMG ... /IMG tags.

Phoenix will have the ability to detect organics and measure carbon isotopic ratios, so yes we don't know what it will find - isn't that why it's going there?  smile


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#103 2008-04-16 15:58:09

3488
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From: Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom
Registered: 2008-04-15
Posts: 23

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Hi ciclops. Link is below from the MRO HiRISE. PSP_001418_2495.

250 metre wide patch of ground at centre of landing ellipse.

This patch of ground is literally dead centre of the landing ellipse.


183684main_ra5-hirise-hires.jpg

Ya Hoo. Cracked it @ long last.

Andrew Brown.


"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.

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#104 2008-04-17 12:01:16

Vincent
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From: North Carolina USA
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Posts: 623

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Another image from MRO in the surface landing eclipse. Do not know what time of year or season. My real name and that of my wife is on board.

Let’s get jazzed. The boys know where they are going.

Vincent



2418661250_60e02f5b73_b.jpg


Argument expected.
I don't require agreement when presenting new ideas.

-Dana Johnson

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#105 2008-04-17 12:15:54

Vincent
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Posts: 623

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Sorry could not resist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjiGH9QNiU0

Vincent


Argument expected.
I don't require agreement when presenting new ideas.

-Dana Johnson

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#106 2008-04-17 15:28:00

3488
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From: Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom
Registered: 2008-04-15
Posts: 23

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Another image from MRO in the surface landing eclipse. Do not know what time of year or season. My real name and that of my wife is on board.

Let’s get jazzed. The boys know where they are going.

Vincent


Hi Vincent. Your image is not far from the one I posted, within the same landing ellipse but I think slightly further north than the one I posted.

Yes Phoenix is landing in Late May, late Spring on Earth, so lets see.

This time the Martian Northern Summer Soltice is on Tuesday 24th June 2008, only three days after the same event on Earth (spooky uh).

So Phoenix will be arriving at the terrestrial equivalent of early June or early Summer.

The Martian Northern Autumn Equinox will be on Sunday 10th January 2009.

The Phoenix Primary Mission will take Phoenix roughly to the Martian Summer Cross Quarter point, roughly half way between the Summer Solstice & Autumn Equinox, or roughly the terrestrial equivalent of 2nd / 3rd August. I really hope Phoenix makes it all the way to at least mid January, past the Martian Equinox.

So in short, the Phoenix Primary Mission begins just before the Martian Northern Summer Solstice, to roughly half way to the Autumn Equinox.

Hope that helps?

My name is also on Phoenix & I was also involved in the campaign to get the mission approved (also DAWN & New Horizons).

BTW I like that cartoon you linked too. I have put the same link on Space.com & The Spaceport.  lol

Andrew Brown.


"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.

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#107 2008-04-17 21:35:02

Vincent
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From: North Carolina USA
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Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Yep, that cartoon is a hoot. Lets cross our fingers the shoot opens before impact, lol.

Like a father in the waiting room. Good spot and good timing for sure.

Vincent


Argument expected.
I don't require agreement when presenting new ideas.

-Dana Johnson

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#108 2008-04-18 02:05:22

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Nice work!


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#109 2008-04-18 13:26:50

RedStreak
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Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Sorry could not resist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjiGH9QNiU0

Vincent

lol   *is falling off his butt laughing until he passes out*

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#110 2008-04-18 13:38:45

3488
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From: Ashford, Kent, United Kingdom
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Posts: 23

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Whilst on the subject of very silly animations.  lol

What about this very silly one?

Andrew Brown.


"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.

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#111 2008-04-18 15:00:44

RedStreak
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Posts: 541

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Whilst on the subject of very silly animations.  lol

What about this very silly one?

Andrew Brown.

Oh LORD I'd hope they'd design the rover better than THAT!  tongue

But still lol

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#112 2008-04-18 16:48:54

Zydar
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From: UK
Registered: 2007-08-14
Posts: 74

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

I've had a look at the image posted above by Vincent.

I have processed the image and it certainly would appear that there are many trees or similar vegetation at this location. The white parts of the image are structures. They appear to be built of a very bright building material similar to the material used for the very white structure in one of my previous landing site images. The bright material is in evidence in many other parts of the planet. It could be that the material has reflective and thermal retention qualities.

The white parts do not give the impression of being frost patches as they have rectilinear form. I will post a processed image of the same location later. I trust the landing site team have had a really good look at where they want Phoenix to touch down. Martian structures are quite small and could be mistaken for boulders. They are only about 2.5 m high, which gives the impression there could be a civilization of 'little people' inhabiting the planet. Maybe, we will find out, after Phoenix has landed, exactly what is really on the terrain.

Zydar

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#113 2008-04-19 05:44:16

Vincent
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Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

I have been blessed to know about all of the great Mars image men on the net. One of the best at mega-scale cropping, blowing up and enhancement without prejudice is Dana Johnson.

Below is what I believe to be the highest resolution single image of the area for Phoenix to land. Interesting terrain indeed minus the frost or snow in the low topo areas. Just some patchy frost or frozen subsurface eruption areas, a few boulders.

Link to Dana’s site, strap in if you go there, lots of intense images

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/danajohnson0/

Vincent

2425281018_defd05e5a2_o.jpg


Argument expected.
I don't require agreement when presenting new ideas.

-Dana Johnson

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#114 2008-04-20 16:23:10

Zydar
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From: UK
Registered: 2007-08-14
Posts: 74

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

This is a processed image of the one above. I have circled some anomalous curiosities that are showing on the surface. See what you think. If you decide to download the image to enlarge I suggest that the image is rotated to the left by 35 degrees first.

Image PSP_007207_2485

PSP_007207_2485_pci.jpg

Image credit: NASA/JPL/University of Arizona

Zydar

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#115 2008-04-21 03:15:32

Zydar
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From: UK
Registered: 2007-08-14
Posts: 74

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

This image is a closer view of the above image. The objects on the surface appear to be quite unusual.

As the location of this image is a potential candidate landing site for the Phoenix lander does anyone have an idea what these objects could be?


PSP_007207_2485_pci_close.jpg

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#116 2008-04-21 04:41:58

Vincent
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Posts: 623

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Zydar

Most likely they are rocks. The chances of the being anything else is 1 in 23,345,237,856,239,556.0000000003

Vincent


Argument expected.
I don't require agreement when presenting new ideas.

-Dana Johnson

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#117 2008-04-21 05:13:45

Zydar
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From: UK
Registered: 2007-08-14
Posts: 74

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Vincent, please be realistic.

I have posted the last two images so that we can see what is on the surface which is likely to be encountered by the lander, if it lands at, or near, this location. I am sure that no one would want Phoenix to bump into something on the last twenty feet after it had travelled millions of miles to get there.

Should the mission controllers feel there is a need to change the landing site, there is still time for critical corrections to be made.

Zydar

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#118 2008-04-21 05:17:37

Vincent
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Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Zydar

What else could they be?

Vincent


Argument expected.
I don't require agreement when presenting new ideas.

-Dana Johnson

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#119 2008-04-21 10:32:18

Vincent
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Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Zydar,

I do not mean to be a prick. The reality is if Man was wiped out due to whatever, the Earth would wipe his residue off the surface.

If  Mars ever had a civilization we will only find it in fossils buried deep.

I am open but not stupid.

Vincent


Argument expected.
I don't require agreement when presenting new ideas.

-Dana Johnson

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#120 2008-04-21 16:00:39

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Should the mission controllers feel there is a need to change the landing site, there is still time for critical corrections to be made.

The landing ellipse is about 100kms x 20 kms, all they can do is pick a landing area that has a low probability of large rocks being present. They have selected the area most suitable for the instruments and with the highest chance of a safe landing.


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#121 2008-04-21 16:05:33

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Ice-T by Mark Lemmon Co-Investigator, SSI Lead

April 17, 2008 - I'm still recovering from the latest exercise in simulating operations on Mars, last week. We spent 3 days, running about 2 sols per day, doing an event called the Ice Thread Test. A thread test is a chance to focus on some aspect of operations that needs attention, without bringing the whole project to a focus on simulating all aspects of operations.

In this case, the "thread" was the discovery of ice. A handful of us were involved, representing mission management, science, the robotic arm team, and the camera team. Behind the scenes, the PIT crew had prepared a great set-up and kept things rolling. We started with a pristine workspace with a few intriguing areas to dig ("those 4 rocks mark the corners of one of the allowed dig zones"). Some things about the test were comforting: we had a small tilt, and the workspace was aligned north. We’ve practiced with tilts up to around 15 degrees, which are tilts we can deal with, but they complicate operations and are not at all likely. We’re landing in an area with regional slopes less than 2 degrees and few boulders at the scale where they could cause big tilts. We are hoping for polygonal ice fractures, but the polygons are 3-6 m across and the relief in the fractures is expected to be centimeter scale.

34 days to arrival!


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#122 2008-04-22 06:59:58

danajohnson
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From: Oklahoma, US
Registered: 2005-02-17
Posts: 6

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

I just uploaded this small sub-image from the HiRISE PSP_2170_2485 JP2 color main image, to my image host for linking, and the dynamic range and color are designed here for emphasis on the dramatic  and not at all accurate as a view by human eyesight. The sub-image here is at the lower right corner of the main color JP2, x=66850, y=38950.
This may be far from the landing "sweet spot", and the actual terrain type found on the Heimdall ejecta blanket layer upon which the Phoenix is scheduled to land. If someone can explain this to me, and add an explanation of the estimated depth of the crater ejecta debris layer, I would appreciate the re-orientation. Apparently we will be viewing an altered ejecta blanket, which may be affected by recent and limited erosion, and frost deposition.
Was this a decision to find deeper material, rather than an attempt to study the older unaltered surface terrain?
The landing ellipse and 'red box' ,'sweet spot', locale with the ejecta layer dominating the entire spot.
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/1836 … -hires.jpg
The unusual terrain coloration which here is exaggerated and contrasty to show the separation of materials, and the subtle surface features. The mass of thrown crater boulder debris is at the opposite(left) side of the color HiRISE image. At the mid-range of the color main image is a transition zone between boulders, and altered, eroded, terrain as you see here.
[img=http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/7070/cp5x66850y38950sz1to1shsv8.th.jpg]
First try at a thumbnail link on this forum. Hoping this isn't too distracting.
While ejecta debris will give better current ice retention, and deeper material in part, will the source as an impact, 'sanitize' the debris, reduce the surface ice, and provide a closed door to the original unaltered material sampling?


tires bald, makes noise, still runs,

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#123 2008-04-22 08:20:30

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Hi danajohnson!

This may help to explain what Phoenix will be used to look for:

Phoenix will assess the habitability of the Martian northern environment by using sophisticated chemical experiments to assess the soil's composition of life giving elements such as carbon, nitrogen, phosphorus, and hydrogen. Identified by chemical analysis, Phoenix will also look at reduction-oxidation (redox) molecular pairs that may determine whether the potential chemical energy of the soil can sustain life, as well as other soil properties critical to determine habitability such as pH and saltiness.

Phoenix will dig deep enough into the soil to analyze the soil environment potentially protected from UV looking for organic signatures and potential habitability.

The mission supports the four Mars exploration goals, outlined in more detail here:

Goal 1: Determine whether life ever arose on Mars

Goal 2: Characterize the climate of Mars

Goal 3: Characterize the geology of Mars

and most importantly for many readers here:

Goal 4: Prepare for human exploration


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#124 2008-04-23 05:02:45

Vincent
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From: North Carolina USA
Registered: 2008-04-13
Posts: 623

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Hello, Danajohnson, and welcome back. I did run across your post from a few years ago. More going on here than at the Blog. I have read a lot of your material and believe you have great insight.

Hope you post a lot of your interpretations of surface features here.

In honor of your return I will post one of my favorite Dana Johnson images form the Utopia region I believe.

PS:

Have not run across any hardcore rock people here but they will come. As far as location I believe it was smooth landing vs. anything else. Age of the ejecta blanket and depth could  alter the prime environmental area as far as the current hydro cycle and any past or current microbial or alien life forms.

Dana wrote:

While ejecta debris will give better current ice retention, and deeper material in part, will the source as an impact, 'sanitize' the debris, reduce the surface ice, and provide a closed door to the original unaltered material sampling?

Fire and ice for sure. That is a possibility. It has been debated. Lets hope the microscopic imager picks up anything of interest that is killed or altered. If water ice is close to the surface then melting altering and maybe even a closed door for sure. We got what we got. Viking did pick up some activity after a rocket landing.



Vincent

2143973321_ee5de6fe71_o.jpg


Argument expected.
I don't require agreement when presenting new ideas.

-Dana Johnson

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#125 2008-04-23 09:36:12

Vincent
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Posts: 623

Re: Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX)

Post of Dana’s image above

Nothing like I have seen before. My question is I understand change of color and contrast will affect the image as far as detail. I wonder if the relief is affected as well.

Good to have you here old friend.

Vincent
2436825718_2c38dfd5d8_o.jpg


Argument expected.
I don't require agreement when presenting new ideas.

-Dana Johnson

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