U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-15 06:54:56

disenfranchised with the state of our democracy? Cynical?

Cynical? I'm being optimistic. :laugh:

clark · 2005-06-15 07:00:18

Like when we try and believe in "compassionate" conservatism?

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-15 07:03:17

Like when we try and believe in "compassionate" conservatism?

Many conservatives are compassionate people.

They just don't equate compulsory redistribution of wealth with compassion like some folks do. :;):

clark · 2005-06-15 07:08:01

Many conservatives are compassionate people.

Yeah, I met them. They were on a date. I hope they have children soon so there will be more.

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-15 07:18:00

Yeah, I met them. They were on a date. I hope they have children soon so there will be more.

Do I detect a hint of bigotry here?

Nah, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Whatever the case, the idea that taking from one person to give to another because it makes you feel better is compassionate while wanting to keep what you have is greedy is a bit odd.

I posit to you that the so-called "compassionate" liberals of this nation (in fact, the world) are driven in their policies by selfish motives rather than compassion.

Palomar · 2005-06-15 07:29:55

I posit to you that the so-called "compassionate" liberals of this nation (in fact, the world) are driven in their policies by selfish motives rather than compassion.

*Yes. If for anything, to get a good-guy/gal badge.

Probably the most altruistic appearing are indeed the most selfish. They're simply more clever at masking their motives.

While I do think there is such a thing as altruism, it seems it likely only exists within certain familial bonds, certain close friendships and in circumstances/between ordinary people who aren't going to get their photo on a magazine cover for it.

As for politicians...ha.

--Cindy

clark · 2005-06-15 07:41:01

Hey, I’ll get personal for a moment. I used to be a Boy Scout. Almost Eagle, just one merit badge short. Se la ve.

I lost interest about the time my troop discovered that the Scout Master we all worshiped was stealing troop funds to fund his 200 dollar a day coke habit. I remember visiting him the hospital when he had problems with his nasal passage. We all thought it was something else at the time. Then came the revelations that he had been giving some of the boys alcohol and pot at his home. Then the discovery that he had been abusing some of the kids, mostly a few of the older ones in the troop (my group had come from a different cub scout group… yes, me, a cub scout, arrow of light and all that jazz).

That pretty much burned me on the whole “duty, honor, altruism” through a structured environment. However, I still try to do a good deed every day. I guess I learned something, somewhere.

I think there is such a thing as altruism. I’ve seen it, I’ve practiced it. And yes, there is a selfish motive to it. It’s the way it makes you feel. It feels good, but then, not many people learn to like that feeling. [shrug] Glad I’m not one of them.

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-15 07:47:51

I think there is such a thing as altruism. I’ve seen it, I’ve practiced it. And yes, there is a selfish motive to it. It’s the way it makes you feel. It feels good, but then, not many people learn to like that feeling. [shrug] Glad I’m not one of them.

Booyah! You've hit the very heart of it!

The problem is that a certain political persuasion believes that being generous with other people's money to make themselves feel good is the right thing to do.

By all means help out the poor unfortunate souls of the world, savor the feeling of having done something noble. But remember, stealing from others to get that feeling is no different from your scout master stealing from the trough for the good feeling of snorting coke.

clark · 2005-06-15 07:58:31

The problem is that a certain political persuasion believes that being generous with other people's money to make themselves feel good is the right thing to do.

Much like certain politcal persuasions using other peoples lives to feel good about doing the right thing.

BWhite · 2005-06-15 08:01:06

I think there is such a thing as altruism. I’ve seen it, I’ve practiced it. And yes, there is a selfish motive to it. It’s the way it makes you feel. It feels good, but then, not many people learn to like that feeling. [shrug] Glad I’m not one of them.
Booyah! You've hit the very heart of it!
The problem is that a certain political persuasion believes that being generous with other people's money to make themselves feel good is the right thing to do.
By all means help out the poor unfortunate souls of the world, savor the feeling of having done something noble. But remember, stealing from others to get that feeling is no different from your scout master stealing from the trough for the good feeling of snorting coke.

Building (and maintaining) a smooth running society is what allowed the wealthy to get wealthy in the first place.

To not tax the wealthy allows them to freeload.

= = =

I recall the libertarian Mundaka being all happy that the jerk who smashed his truck and his telescope was in violation of mandatory auto insurance laws. Mandatory auto insurance? How libertarian is that? :;):

Edited By BWhite on 1118844164

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-15 08:11:54

Much like certain politcal persuasions using other peoples lives to feel good about doing the right thing.

The difference being that in this case there's more than "feelign good about doing the right thing" and those being "used" volunteered for the job.

Building (and maintaining) a smooth running society is what allowed the wealthy to get wealthy in the first place.

Depending on how the wealth was acquired. By all means, tax dividends and interest.

But taxing wages is theft, pure and simple.

recall the libertarian Mundaka being all happy that the jerk who smashed his truck and his telescope was in violation of mandatory auto insurance laws. Mandatory auto insurance? How libertarian is that?

Not long ago I was speeding along a deserted road, middle of the night. Some guy in a Camaro flashed his lights, rode my tail for about a quarter mile then passed at what had to be 90 MPH, middle finger extended. I was doing 65, the posted limit was 55.

A few miles down the road I passed him, pulled over by the fuzz. I must admit a certain satisfaction in that, but I still intend to strike down the current speeding laws if I ever get the chance.

2008, our current state rep is term-limited out after almost certain re-election in '06, then it's mine.

clark · 2005-06-15 08:12:03

My scout master deceived us, on many levels. It is nowhere near the same thing... unless you mean WMD's and planning for the aftermath of an Iraqi invasion.

Taxes, and where they go, and what they are spent on is at least known. You may not like it, or you may think it is going in the wrong places, but no one is saying, “shut up and give us your money” without your knowledge or some means of consent.

Palomar · 2005-06-15 08:16:28

Not long ago I was speeding along a deserted road, middle of the night. Some guy in a Camaro flashed his lights, rode my tail for about a quarter mile then passed at what had to be 90 MPH, middle finger extended. I was doing 65, the posted limit was 55.
A few miles down the road I passed him, pulled over by the fuzz. I must admit a certain satisfaction in that, but I still intend to strike down the current speeding laws if I ever get the chance.

*To what extent? Aren't some speed laws created to protect the citizenry, i.e. can't drive 55 mph on residential streets?

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-15 08:19:26

My scout master deceived us, on many levels. It is nowhere near the same thing... unless you mean WMD's and planning for the aftermath of an Iraqi invasion.

I know that even if I say something that resonates deep in the bowels of your soul you can't accept it coming from me. So rather than haggle over WMD's again (still not terribly concerned) or use your scoutmaster in another attack, I'll simply bow and give you time to reflect. Choose a team and sometimes you'll be aligned with thieves and liars.

You may not like it, or you may think it is going in the wrong places, but no one is saying, “shut up and give us your money” without your knowledge or some means of consent.

I never consented to pay income tax. Sure, for sales tax you can make a case for implied consent by buying whatever it is, but income tax is simply pilfered off the top of wages, an exchange of money for labor. Officials I (and often no one) ever voted for decide how much to steal, what to spend it on and threaten us with prison or further loss of property for non-compliance. It's extortion.

Edited By Cobra Commander on 1118845614

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-15 08:26:26

*To what extent? Aren't some speed laws created to protect the citizenry, i.e. can't drive 55 mph on residential streets?

Quite some time ago the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration came up with something called the "85th percentile rule" for determinign speed limits. Eseentially the idea was that for any given stretch of road, the only fair and reasonable way to determine what should be the posted limit is to track a large number of cars driving it under normal conditions and the posted limit should be no lower than 85 percent of drivers would drive in the absence of any limit.

There were also guidelines about fines and not using them to feed the police or courts.

All of it has been largely ignored, most speed limits are essentially "road taxes". A means to increase revenue. Police budget a little tight? Camp out near unrealistically low posted limits and rake in the dough.

They always tell us it's for our protection, sometimes it's even true. But usually there's something else.

clark · 2005-06-15 08:32:22

know that even if I say something that resonates deep in the bowels of your soul you can't accept it coming from me.

No CC, that is simply not true. We have a difference in our point of view. I am more than willing to concede the valid points you make. I grapple with them and I try to account for the different justifications and rationalizations. However, you don’t seem to account for the valid points raised that run counter to your view.

In caricature form, you shrug it off. You accept morally bankrupt actions when it fits into your overall philosophical preference. Thus, you accept a lying president who misleads your country to war because to you, the reasons are moot, you agree with the final action. I can’t say I really fault you for that, but I for one will not accept it because it simply crosses a line related to my philosophical preference.

You won’t convince me because you will not account for how you can justify supporting a leader who simply lies as a matter of convenience. If it were truly a matter of necessity, I might be willing to accept the situation, but we are far beyond necessity; and hindsight and evidence both support that actions were taken not based on the good of our country and our future.

So rather than haggle over WMD's again (still not terribly concerned) or use your scoutmaster in another attack, I'll simply bow and give you time to reflect. Choose a term and sometimes you'll be aligned with thieves and liars.

Oh, don’t worry. I am way over the trauma. Besides, I can still become an Eagle Scout, albeit, I would have to be elected President. :laugh:

I get what you’re saying about income tax, and the thing is, I don’t like paying it anymore than you. However, I don’t necessarily equate it with stealing since I know where the money is going and, while the means are difficult to navigate, I do have the opportunity to influence how those funds are spent.

But if you really want political change, don’t undo the income tax, just undo withholding and have it paid as one lump sum at the end of the year. Preferably right before elections.

BWhite · 2005-06-15 08:32:28

Building (and maintaining) a smooth running society is what allowed the wealthy to get wealthy in the first place.
Depending on how the wealth was acquired. By all means, tax dividends and interest.
But taxing wages is theft, pure and simple.

I am more sympathetic to this view than it might seem but I also think this view wouldn't go over well with the reverse Robin Hoods we have in Washington, right now.

Instead of taxing millions of poor people, let's trick them into signing deals with MBNA for 23% interest plus 5% per month overlimit and late fees. 83% per year interest?

Its a good deal if the government will supply the courthouses and the laws to allow you to garnish paychecks and collect it.

= = =

The simple truth is that well crafted regulations (like zoning laws) enhance wealth even if badly crafting regulations (like zoning laws) can stifle a local economy.

Public infrastructure investment can raise real wages - - sewers good roads, cable line, power grids.

Public access wi-fi broadband (taxpayer based OR municipal run not-for-profit co-operative) is an interesting situation pitting the potential for public good versus profits for Comcast and the DSL providers.

Usury laws and bankruptcy laws keep workers productive and out of the all cash black markets. What's good for MBNA isn't necessarily good for America.

= = =

Tax capital and not labor?

Watch out! George W. Bush will denounce you soon enough, dude, as some sort of libertarian-anarchist.

BWhite · 2005-06-15 08:35:23

*To what extent? Aren't some speed laws created to protect the citizenry, i.e. can't drive 55 mph on residential streets?
Quite some time ago the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration came up with something called the "85th percentile rule" for determinign speed limits. Eseentially the idea was that for any given stretch of road, the only fair and reasonable way to determine what should be the posted limit is to track a large number of cars driving it under normal conditions and the posted limit should be no lower than 85 percent of drivers would drive in the absence of any limit.
There were also guidelines about fines and not using them to feed the police or courts.
All of it has been largely ignored, most speed limits are essentially "road taxes". A means to increase revenue. Police budget a little tight? Camp out near unrealistically low posted limits and rake in the dough.
They always tell us it's for our protection, sometimes it's even true. But usually there's something else.

This is also why the "War on Drugs" won't end any time soon. Too many counties like those Corvettes and Porsches they get to confiscate. :;):

Palomar · 2005-06-15 08:38:32

All of it has been largely ignored, most speed limits are essentially "road taxes". A means to increase revenue. Police budget a little tight? Camp out near unrealistically low posted limits and rake in the dough.

*Speed traps. Arkansas is rife with them.

As for the "85th percentile rule," I've not heard of it. Thanks.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-15 08:55:23

No CC, that is simply not true. We have a difference in our point of view. I am more than willing to concede the valid points you make. I grapple with them and I try to account for the different justifications and rationalizations. However, you don’t seem to account for the valid points raised that run counter to your view.

I account for the valid points. :;):
And you do put forth your share of them.

In caricature form, you shrug it off. You accept morally bankrupt actions when it fits into your overall philosophical preference.

Not precisely. I simply have a different concept of morality than you. In my morality for example, killing isn't always wrong and giving isn't always right. One can certainly disagree, but being too rooted in grey pragmatism I probably won't be convinced by absolutist concepts. Lies, wars, murder; it's all very fudgy. Which is too say it's shapeless when the heat is on and ingesting too much of it will make you sick.

I leave you to your own concept of morality, and somewhere along the line I'll steal a few bucks from you too. Think of it as "being compassionate." :up:

am more sympathetic to this view than it might seem but I also think this view wouldn't go over well with the reverse Robin Hoods we have in Washington, right now.

And that I'm not arguing with. If this Administration has its way they'll do exactly the opposite of what I want with taxation.

The simple truth is that well crafted regulations (like zoning laws) enhance wealth even if badly crafting regulations (like zoning laws) can stifle a local economy.
Public infrastructure investment can raise real wages - - sewers good roads, cable line, power grids.

Agreed, but that doesn't justify a set percentage of everyone's pay being taken regardless of need. Need to fix the roads, have a millage vote. If it's worth it to the locals they'll pay. Make government ask for the money instead of conduct its business as though entitled to it.

Unless one suscribes to the idea that the people don't know enough about the issue to make informed, thought-out decisions. In some cases I might agree with that, but then I've never been big on the democracy sham either.

Americans once fought a war over "outrageous" taxation. They payed less than we do. Something to ponder.

Tax capital and not labor?
Watch out! George W. Bush will denounce you soon enough, dude, as some sort of libertarian-anarchist.

Looking forward to it.

This is also why the "War on Drugs" won't end any time soon. Too many counties like those Corvettes and Porsches they get to confiscate.

Exactly.

Palomar · 2005-06-15 09:03:04

*George Bush = Darth Vader. Angel to some, demon to others.

And the Democrats' favorite Bogeyman.

--Cindy

::EDIT::

Americans once fought a war over "outrageous" taxation. They payed less than we do. Something to ponder.

We can't win. Enough "little people" unfortunately don't care and so the powers that be don't have to do anything about it.

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-15 09:13:06

We can't win. Enough "little people" unfortunately don't care and so the powers that be don't have to do anything about it.

Yeah, short of getting a few political martyrs willing to stay the course to near-certain personal ruin or a few "incidents".

I have some ideas about the IRS records database, but lack the hacking skills.

However, call it naivete, call it fortitude, I still think we can win. Maybe, just maybe the tide of history will flow in a direction making it more probable.

Otherwise, there's "escape" or the "5000 troops" options. ???

Fledi · 2005-06-15 09:58:05

People tend to begin caring much more about what politicians are doing when the economy starts collapsing. Just seeing this for the second time in my life.
The first time it ended communism. What will happen now, I don't know. It's not too late for the government to change the course of events yet, though.

reddragon · 2005-06-15 16:01:02

People tend to begin caring much more about what politicians are doing when the economy starts collapsing.

An interesting thing to note given how much we hear about morality and the like in modern politics. It's not when we do something "evil" that people really start acting to make things better. It's when they have less money than they used to.

To be fair, plenty of people do speak up about things they believe to be morally wrong. It's just that a bad economy seems to get more complaints and action from the populace than something like an unjust war (or an imminent threat from Iraq if you take the prowar viewpoint) that doesn't affect them directly.

Fledi · 2005-06-15 16:36:07

Yep, there are always people who care about more than their wallets, I would even say all people do to a certain degree. But changes only really happen when a large enough percentage of the population begin to suffer because of a worsening situation. Then the problems become more and more visible, with beggars on the streets etc..
Of course there are all the anti-war protesters, but it's a big difference to see bad things happening on TV than in the neighborhood. But it's not that bad yet here, it's just the perspektives looking grim

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#151 2005-06-15 06:54:56

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#152 2005-06-15 07:00:18

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#153 2005-06-15 07:03:17

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#154 2005-06-15 07:08:01

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#155 2005-06-15 07:18:00

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#156 2005-06-15 07:29:55

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#157 2005-06-15 07:41:01

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#158 2005-06-15 07:47:51

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#159 2005-06-15 07:58:31

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#160 2005-06-15 08:01:06

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#161 2005-06-15 08:11:54

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#162 2005-06-15 08:12:03

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#163 2005-06-15 08:16:28

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#164 2005-06-15 08:19:26

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#165 2005-06-15 08:26:26

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#166 2005-06-15 08:32:22

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#167 2005-06-15 08:32:28

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#168 2005-06-15 08:35:23

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#169 2005-06-15 08:38:32

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#170 2005-06-15 08:55:23

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#171 2005-06-15 09:03:04

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#172 2005-06-15 09:13:06

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#173 2005-06-15 09:58:05

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#174 2005-06-15 16:01:02

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

#175 2005-06-15 16:36:07

Re: U.S. Culture - ...where's it going?

Board footer