Apropos of Nothing

clark · 2003-09-29 08:59:19

The grass is always greener on the other side becauce you simply haven't had to mow it yet.

Byron · 2003-09-29 11:38:11

The grass is always greener on the other side becauce you simply haven't had to mow it yet.

Ahem.... I should add that I've actually spent a significant amount of time in both Australia and New Zealand...and the grass really is greener...quite literally if you're talking about kiwi land...lol.

But seriously, seeing how the people live there really opened my eyes about how America really isn't all what it's cracked up to be...

Here's a few things that I came to appreciate about Australia and NZ: Vacation time: 4 weeks minimum, required by law. Universal health care - beats what we have here by a long shot, IMO...strict labor laws that promote the "union lifestyle"...strict laws that regulate number of hours worked, working conditions, higher pay for working nights and weekends, and last but not least, the general attitude of the population regarding work....when the clock strikes five, it's time to go home, baby..lol. And frankly, the multitudes of people I came across just seemed so happy and carefree...the way I wish more people in America would be.

In the last job I had, I worked 7:30 to 4:00, Monday-Friday, which was fine with me, until my boss started laying on me about "being a clock watcher." *Excuse me,* I was getting paid to work 7:30 to 4:00, not 7:30 to 4:30 or 5:00. I did what was required of me and often more, helping out my co-workers when I didn't have much to do, etc...so it was never a question of sloughing off on the job....but as far as she was concerned, I wasn't "loyal" enough to stay late on occasion. Frankly, I never saw any rhyme or reason to be "loyal" to my employer. I was paid to do a certain job, and I did that job, quite well, I might add...so what does being "loyal" have anything to do with anything?

Some people say I have a very negative attitude towards work...but what's the point of slaving away for "extra" hours at something you hate doing?? Life is way too short for that. At least they have their priorities straight Down Under (and in a whole lot of other countries, too.)

B

clark · 2003-09-29 11:57:13

That's what you get from a land filled with British criminals.

We are what you get with a land filled with uptight-Protestants and their work ethic.

I don't know about your situation, but I do know I can look forward to more than 4 weeks of (paid) vacation this year. Is it really the country that is the problem, or more than likely, just your job?

I also wonder if you are aware of a little federal agency called OSHA. 'Ergonomics' is one of their favorite words lately. Funky looking keyboards and mandatory stretch brakes are their brainchilds.

Last time I checked, AFL-CIO was going strong. You know, I heard the president of that certain organization speak last year, and you wouldn't know it that unions are being discriminated against. Indeed, quite a few court cases occur every year based on people suing their employers becuase the employee's tried to unionize. while people can be fired for just about any (or lack therof) reason, they can't be fired for trying to unionize (fired legitimately without repercussions to the employer).

Now, you want to talk about priorities straight? Let me tell you friend, try out Amsterdam (or just about any major European city) at the begining of summer. The first day of summer, when I was there, fell on a Monday. It was a beautiful, glorious day- a break from the usual-dark-and-dreary-randomness-of-Netherlands-weather (out on the open plains near the sea...oh the winds...) and just about everyone in the city took the day off and could be found either relaxing along one of the oh-so many pubs and cafes, or their wondours parks (try Vondell if you ever find yourself there).

I found out from a resident later, that the first day of summer, whenever it occurs, is usually greeted in such a manner.

Beautiful day= day off. Not bad, eh?

Byron · 2003-09-29 13:07:30

I don't know about your situation, but I do know I can look forward to more than 4 weeks of (paid) vacation this year.

Lucky you...you're part of a very small minority in this country...lol..

I also wonder if you are aware of a little federal agency called OSHA. 'Ergonomics' is one of their favorite words lately. Funky looking keyboards and mandatory stretch brakes are their brainchilds.

Yes, I have heard of OSHA...and may the good folks that work there live long and prosper. I work out of my home, and yes, I do have one of those "funky keyboards" and I do take frequent strech and exercise breaks...believe me, this stuff is based on real, actual science. Before I adopted these "healthy habits," I had the beginnings of carpal tunnel syndrome, forcing me to back off from computer work from time to time...not anymore..lol.

Indeed, quite a few court cases occur every year based on people suing their employers becuase the employee's tried to unionize. while people can be fired for just about any (or lack therof) reason, they can't be fired for trying to unionize (fired legitimately without repercussions to the employer).

Yes, I am aware that companies are not *supposed* to fire employees because of unionization efforts...but it does happen quite frequently. They have these ways of twisting things in their favor, which is why people do have to go to court (which takes a lot of time, effort and ca$h...most people never make it that far...)

Now, you want to talk about priorities straight? Let me tell you friend, try out Amsterdam (or just about any major European city) at the begining of summer. The first day of summer, when I was there, fell on a Monday. It was a beautiful, glorious day- a break from the usual-dark-and-dreary-randomness-of-Netherlands-weather (out on the open plains near the sea...oh the winds...) and just about everyone in the city took the day off and could be found either relaxing along one of the oh-so many pubs and cafes, or their wondours parks (try Vondell if you ever find yourself there).
I found out from a resident later, that the first day of summer, whenever it occurs, is usually greeted in such a manner.
Beautiful day= day off. Not bad, eh?

If the good folks in the Netherlands happened to speak English, I would have to say that country would be near the top of my list of countries I wouldn't mind emigrating to someday. Like our wonderful friends Down Under, these folks also have the right priorities in mind...lol...screw the "uptight Protestant work ethic"..lol.. :laugh:

B

clark · 2003-09-29 13:18:08

I may be part of a small minority, but I don't have to be. As in all things in life, you have to decide what is most important first, then make your decisions accordingly.

So you know of OSHA, how can you say working conditions are deplorable in the USA? Sure, there are violators who force their employee's to work in sweat-shop like conditions, but they are abel to get away with this through coercision and intimidation, usualy of illegal immigrants or other individuals without much economic opportunity. If you want to complain, complain about the right thing.

As for the cost and time associated with court cases... well, it's not a perfect world, and perhaps we can find a way to streamline court cases related to work related discrimination... but the fact remains there are legal options one may pursue if they are truly wronged in the workplace. Isn't that pretty good? Of course it takes someone willing to go the distance.... which is harder to find in people these days.

And don't worry about speaking English in the Netherlands- they speak English. Of course, if you live there, politeness and decourm require that you learn their language! Which, of course, is Dutch. I never had a problem though with conversing (Amsterdam itself has more tourists visiting in a year than actual residents living there).

I don't know about the work ethic, but I think we need to reassess the whole idea of the "American Dream". That may be part of the problem.

Josh Cryer · 2003-09-29 14:20:44

I'm back.

And yes, the USA has the hardest working people in the world. Bar none. Which in part what makes the US great, but it does have a bit of sadness to it; we (as in, a whole lot of us, not all of us obviously) don't know what it means to relax, really. I mean that. And it's not a 'good' thing.

Myself? Screw work. I'm done with it.

Speaking of this, though (specifically clark's comment about the "American Dream"); I saw a special on PBS the other night, about a week ago (couldn't sleep). It was about Human Trafficing; literal slavery in the 21st century. These con men (to put it bluntly, but they were worse than that; they were scum) would convince people that the USA is this wonderful awesome place where lots of opportunity exists. Granted, this may indeed be true on some level (who can dispute the wealth of the USA?), but it certainly isn't true for everyone (nor could it be currently, if ever).

A sad statistic is that this day and age twice as many human slaves are traded (every year, I think?) than in all the years that blacks were taken from Africa as slaves combined. I hope others saw this PBS special, it was pretty important. It puts things into perspective.

Interestingly, when one thinks about supply and demand, it's the very extreme restrictions that are put on borders that make this issue quite worse than it should be. If borders were more open, the demand for illegal migration would decrease.

Byron · 2003-09-30 05:31:50

Interestingly, when one thinks about supply and demand, it's the very extreme restrictions that are put on borders that make this issue quite worse than it should be. If borders were more open, the demand for illegal migration would decrease.

Josh, care to explain?

The demand exists for these immigrants exists because they are willing to work harder, longer and for far less money than your typical American. If we took every "illegal" immigrant and shipped them out tomorrow, America would literally go hungry as there would be no one to tend to the crops....which is exactly why the authorities have not done so, in spite of this post 9-11, high-security climate. In my opinion, it's best to remove the "illegal" status of these immigrants (might as well, since we're letting them stay) and pursue strict labor legislation so that these workers enjoy a much higher standard of living than they do now.

The only way we'll really be able to stop the flow of immigrants cold, however, is to build up Latin American countries (just like we're *trying* to in Iraq) up to "1st World" standards....as this would remove any incentive for people to come to the United States in search of jobs, wealth, etc...

Byron · 2003-09-30 05:41:05

I don't know about the work ethic, but I think we need to reassess the whole idea of the "American Dream". That may be part of the problem.

Clark...care to explain? (hey, you're not exempt, either...lol.)

Do you think there should be much less of an emphasis upon the acquiring of material possessions? Teaching kids that being "rich" is not the end-all, be-all of the human condition, especially since only a privilaged few will ever make it that far? Convincing people that there is far more to life than work?

Those are just a few of the things that I personally would suggest in re-evaluating the "Dream." How about you?

B

Palomar · 2003-09-30 07:24:36

*Hmmmm, not sure how "deeply" into this particular conversation I want to get, but I do have a comment on "The American Dream":

My perception (which of course could be wrong) is that many people (not implying anyone here is this way) don't quite understand that "The American Dream" is NOT a guaranteed thing. It's a **possibility**; something that **might be** achieved based on merit, work, skills, etc. I've seen/heard a lot of people who give me the definite impression that they definitely believe "just because" they were born in the U.S.A. they are automatically "entitled" to and "deserve" nice cars, big homes, a swimming pool, etc., etc. I can't quite figure out where this "I Deserve It" attitude came from...unless it started with those overindulgent parents of the early 20th century who wanted their children "to have everything I didn't have as a child!" and has spiraled out of control from there. This is a hunch I have.

Of course, there are obstacles to obtainment. I understand there is still not an even playing field in the U.S., skin color is (unfortunately) still a factor, and there are other issues which can get in the way.

I think Arnold Schwazzeneger is a good example of how "The American Dream" can still work. Okay, he had humongous muscles (still does) and the Mr. Universe title when he came here. But he couldn't speak much English, for years didn't speak it very well, came here poor, etc. Who would have thought, in 1978, that he'd have gotten such great success? I wouldn't have. I remember the first time I saw him; I thought, big muscles but homely. I also figured he'd fizzle out quickly in his acting attempts...but thanks to "The Terminator" he's become a permanent fixture in our society.

I agree that this nation is in a huge quagmire. I do believe in the work ethic; I figure if anyone is unwilling to work for what they want, and expect it handed to them, they don't deserve it. I work for what I have. But we DO deserve to get WHAT we work for, i.e. "the laborer is worthy of his/her reward." This is why the Social Security situation gets me steamed up. Unfortunately the rewards aren't what they should be, it seems.

And now I'm blabbering, so I'll just shut up now and post this.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2003-09-30 07:52:14

...lol...screw the "uptight Protestant work ethic"..lol.. :laugh:
B

*Hmmmm. Well, if it's anything like the Midwestern work ethic, I can't agree. I lived in the Midwest for 99% of my life until moving to New Mexico in 1992. I saw a DRASTIC difference in how business is done, how people handle (or don't) their jobs, etc., in the lack of a work ethic (here in New Mexico). I went from living in Iowa and Nebraska, where 1 person could efficiently perform a job function in a very organized and competent manner; where you could get a receptionist/secretary/store manager on the phone who KNEW what they were talking about; where you could walk into an office or business (private or public) and they were "on the ball" and knew what you were talking about and wanted, and hopped to it and got the task done...to moving down here where there are 3 or 4 people bumbling around with "I don't know, I don't know" (that should be the New Mexico State Motto: "I Don't Know"); businesses which will say "it'll be in tomorrow" and you're waiting another 2 weeks; hiring someone to do a job and they are chronically late (with no explanation and offense if you ask), getting ripped off, or they claim "they misunderstood" what you wanted; getting billed BY THE HOSPITAL for services you didn't receive and then having to try and straighten that mess up, only to think it's straighted out and a year later you're billed again for services never received, etc., etc., on and on.

The Midwest has had a very good track record of good and solid state economies, good education, etc. I haven't lived there for 12 years, so maybe things aren't as organized and "with it" up there any more (but I sure hope it is! Someone's got to be the adult)...but by god, I was stunned and shocked at the differences between a place where the work ethic is valued and put into practice, versus the slipshod, disorganized, and downright STUPID ways of "doing things" around here in New Mexico -- which is right behind Alabama and Mississippi as the poorest state in the union (and no wonder).

Give me that uptight work ethic any day! It gets things done and keeps them moving. The nation was built on it.
If you don't believe me, move to New Mexico, the "I Don't Know" State!

--Cindy :laugh:

clark · 2003-09-30 08:50:12

If we took every "illegal" immigrant and shipped them out tomorrow, America would literally go hungry as there would be no one to tend to the crops....which is exactly why the authorities have not done so, in spite of this post 9-11, high-security climate.

Or... if we shipped 'them' out tomorrow, farm producers would have to offer higher wages to attract those left in the labor pool (if we shipped out 'them', whose left...) and then either absorb the increased cost of production, or (more likely) charge more for their produce, which in turn increases the cost of living for basic foodstuff, which means people have to spend more money on food, which means the value of the dollar is reduced (or you have less free money with which to purchase luxary goods) which results in a tighter economy with which to produce new goods, and will also result in a demand from farmers for higher subsidies to continue to offset the cost of increased farm labor, which means higher taxes for everyone, or higer deficit spending by the government, which also must spend more and more to keep the illegal immigrants out of the country, which only increases (the cost and number of people trying to illegaly immigrate) every year (because now more are attracted by the EVEN higer wages they can make now...if they can make it)....

Eventually the world ends in a nuclear armageddon.

Sometimes it's a bit more complicated then we care to admit.

Byron · 2003-09-30 08:55:56

I should probably say the reason that I have such a poor opinion of the "work ethnic" is becuase of the way I was treated by my bosses at the various jobs I've held over the years...

I pride myself for my intelligence, adaptability, willingness to work hard and "play fair", but when you have bosses that put you down for attempting to come up with a "better way," or *publicly* belittling you for any tiny little mistake that you might commit (God forbid that I'm not Jesus Christ Himself), and the sheer negative attitude of the typical workplace...it's like, what incentive do I have to even bother trying to do a decent job? Down here in Florida, at least, you don't get ahead by working hard and putting forth your best effort...you get ahead by stepping on other people's toes and performing the backstabbing routine I'm sorry, but I quit that game a long time ago.

The next time you experience bad service in a store or restaurant, you may want to think about how that employee is being treated by his or her bosses...not to mention the paltry salaries they're probably making. Does anyone on here see any sense at all for working your butt off for $5.15 an hour??

One of the reasons why I think the Midwest has a better work ethnic than the rest of the country is because they enjoy a higher rate of union membership than elsewhere (which puts upward pressure on salaries on even non-union jobs,) and the Midwesterners tend to have a better sense of respect for others...i.e., they practice what most of America used to be like in the past. But I imagine things are changing there as well, unfortunately

B

Byron · 2003-09-30 09:10:54

If we took every "illegal" immigrant and shipped them out tomorrow, America would literally go hungry as there would be no one to tend to the crops....which is exactly why the authorities have not done so, in spite of this post 9-11, high-security climate.
Or... if we shipped 'them' out tomorrow, farm producers would have to offer higher wages to attract those left in the labor pool (if we shipped out 'them', whose left...) and then either absorb the increased cost of production, or (more likely) charge more for their produce, which in turn increases the cost of living for basic foodstuff, which means people have to spend more money on food, which means the value of the dollar is reduced (or you have less free money with which to purchase luxary goods) which results in a tighter economy with which to produce new goods, and will also result in a demand from farmers for higher subsidies to continue to offset the cost of increased farm labor, which means higher taxes for everyone, or higer deficit spending by the government, which also must spend more and more to keep the illegal immigrants out of the country, which only increases (the cost and number of people trying to illegaly immigrate) every year (because now more are attracted by the EVEN higer wages they can make now...if they can make it)....
Eventually the world ends in a nuclear armageddon.
Sometimes it's a bit more complicated then we care to admit.

But didn't I mention that the only way to stop "immigration cold" is to increase the living standards of the countries they hail from?

Let's think about this for a moment...let's say we manage to achieve the ultimate dream of bringing every country on this planet up to American and European living standards. If everyone was wealthy, who would do the "scum" jobs no one wants? Who would be willing to work in the fields for $3 an hour...or even $7 or $10 an hour? What if we reach a level of such technological prowess that machines are able to perform all of this "scut" work for us...(like the "auto-serve" McDonald's they're experimenting with at this very moment.)? How will most people be able to make a living at that point?

I strongly believe that our modern-day system of capitalism is doomed to failure at some point in the future...to be replaced by something (I have no idea what) else. I just think it's a good idea to at least be thinking about some of the problems of unsustainability *now* before we get caught unawares, that's all...

clark · 2003-09-30 09:45:39

But didn't I mention that the only way to stop "immigration cold" is to increase the living standards of the countries they hail from?

Yes, you did. However, if you and I, and many many others can see and understand this rather easily, the next question is, 'why wouldn't we improve the living conditions in the western hemisphere?'

So, what's in it for us not to stop immigration cold?

Cheap labor that allows us to remain economically competitive with third world nations food production (not to mention the Europeans et. al.)

There is also the fundamental reality that we simply cannot remove all of the illegal immigrants, nor stem the tide of incoming illegal immigrants without a massive investment in a border Army. We have something like 170,000 troops to barely contain Iraq. Our borders are much larger than all of Iraq. There are millions of able bodied people coming to this country (getting here is a physical ordeal, so really only the healthy make it).

What if we reach a level of such technological prowess that machines are able to perform all of this "scut" work for us...(like the "auto-serve" McDonald's they're experimenting with at this very moment.)? How will most people be able to make a living at that point?

Simple. They'll be put on the dole. It's either feed them, or have them riot.

Do you think there should be much less of an emphasis upon the acquiring of material possessions? [American Dream]

Perhaps, but really, people associate material possessions as the realization of the American Dream. To me, put simply, the American Dream is to have opportunity- be it in getting the penultimate token that you want because your neighbor has it, or pursuing your dreams of touching the stars. It's not things, pusuits, or ideas itself, it's the chance to go after them. I think to many people miss this.

But then again, what do I know.

Palomar · 2003-09-30 10:48:29

Byron: "I should probably say the reason that I have such a poor opinion of the "work ethnic" is becuase of the way I was treated by my bosses at the various jobs I've held over the years..."

*I've had nasty, negative bosses as well...but all of those have been here, in NM. My bosses in the Midwest were, in (drastic) comparison, level-headed, fair and generally impartial. Those bosses of ours who have been unfair, petty, abusive, etc., obviously aren't acquainted with the work ethic (as defined by Midwestern standards).

Byron: "I pride myself for my intelligence, adaptability, willingness to work hard and "play fair", but when you have bosses that put you down for attempting to come up with a "better way," or *publicly* belittling you for any tiny little mistake that you might commit (God forbid that I'm not Jesus Christ Himself), and the sheer negative attitude of the typical workplace...it's like, what incentive do I have to even bother trying to do a decent job? Down here in Florida, at least, you don't get ahead by working hard and putting forth your best effort...you get ahead by stepping on other people's toes and performing the backstabbing routine I'm sorry, but I quit that game a long time ago."

*Oh, I know the feeling. What you describe in FL is exactly like the NM attitude in employer-employee "relationships." In IA and NE at least (and, based on what I've heard, MN, the Dakotas, WI and IL are very similar -- though I've not personally worked in those states), if you are a good, loyal, dependable, efficient worker you will be rewarded. If anything, your work is recognized, praised, and supervisors leave you alone and try to get along with you. This was in the hospital/clinic setting. The ugly work environment here in NM is what prompted me to become self-employed. I saw (and experienced) abuse of employees and abusive, hostile bosses who wouldn't last 2 seconds in the IA and NE work environs I knew in the 1980s and early 1990s. I understand where you are coming from, Byron -- I do.

Byron: "The next time you experience bad service in a store or restaurant, you may want to think about how that employee is being treated by his or her bosses...not to mention the paltry salaries they're probably making. Does anyone on here see any sense at all for working your butt off for $5.15 an hour??"

*I've worked minimum wage, in my early 20s. First at Domino's Pizza, then McDonald's. I know what it's like busting your ass for hours on end, putting up with demanding (and sometimes irrationally hostile) customers (like the lady who pounced on me for a pickle being on her hamburger -- well, I hadn't taken her order, and I don't know why she couldn't just re-lift the top bun and pick the pickle off, but no, she had to have her little hissy fit...the examples could be endless) and multiple tasks, and picking up a measly paycheck at the end of the pay period. The guy who owned that McDonald's wasn't pleasant to work for, either. But I didn't take it out on the customers. I took pride in MY work and did the best I could. Why take it out on the customer? And of course I knew I didn't want to work fast food for the rest of my life (I was doing McD's and Domino's while going to college), so of course I worked hard on my studies to ensure a better career for myself in the future.

Byron: "One of the reasons why I think the Midwest has a better work ethnic than the rest of the country is because they enjoy a higher rate of union membership than elsewhere (which puts upward pressure on salaries on even non-union jobs,)"

*I'm not sure about the union aspect. You might be right, I'm just not sure. My father was a union member (he worked for the former Iowa Electric Light & Power Company).

--Cindy

::EDIT:: "Around here, people will tend to overlook your faults if you're a good, hard worker and dependable." -- my father, in the 1980s.

Josh Cryer · 2003-09-30 10:49:47

Bryon,

The demand exists for these immigrants exists because they are willing to work harder, longer and for far less money than your typical American.

Well, they're not always willing, that's the point of the PBS documentory. Quite few of them get here and get lucky. It's a sad fact. But I was speaking specifically of the demand for trafficers, not the migrants. There will always undoubtedly be people who come and go from one place to the next looking for opportunity. As long as restrictions exist on borders, however, there is a simulated demand; trafficers can charge out the ass for helping people to migrate, and hold these 'debts' over the heads of the migrants indefinitely.

If borders were more open, people could come and go, and decide really whether or not they want to pick tomatoes in fields without getting paid. Most people wouldn't stay.

If we took every "illegal" immigrant and shipped them out tomorrow, America would literally go hungry as there would be no one to tend to the crops....

Well, that's quite true, and I've pretty much made this point before. This is why I think open borders are better.

The only way we'll really be able to stop the flow of immigrants cold, however, is to build up Latin American countries (just like we're *trying* to in Iraq) up to "1st World" standards....as this would remove any incentive for people to come to the United States in search of jobs, wealth, etc...

Agreed, certainly. But building from an economic perspective (not like how Iraq's nation building is going about). People argue that globalization is doing this, of course, but the debts incurred by globalization upon these 3rd world countries are actually having the opposite effect. Think of mobsters who charge for 'protection.' Any countries which denounce their foreign 'debts' would be (and are) put into a position of having sanctions and so on (if not civil wars). It'd be suicide, so you have to play along.

Cindy,

My perception (which of course could be wrong) is that many people (not implying anyone here is this way) don't quite understand that "The American Dream" is NOT a guaranteed thing.

Well yeah, but then is it really a 'dream'? Nothing is guaranteed anywhere. If these migrants realized that it wasn't guaranteed (or at least, if the chances weren't as great as most really think), they wouldn't make the trek. This was the point of the documentory; that migrants have visions of grandure and think that it's all great and lovely. This preception certainly needs to be erradicated.

It's a **possibility**; something that **might be** achieved based on merit, work, skills, etc.

It's a very small possibility, though.

Okay, he had humongous muscles (still does) and the Mr. Universe title when he came here.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't qualify, then.

The immigrants we're talking about are people who are... nobodies. There's nothing special about these people.

I do believe in the work ethic; I figure if anyone is unwilling to work for what they want, and expect it handed to them, they don't deserve it.

Same here. Fortunately for me, I don't have many wants. And any of the ones I do have, are a bit beyond my reach currently (ie, going to Mars, etc).

Josh Cryer · 2003-09-30 10:53:15

I always don't order pickles so that my sandwich is fresh.

clark · 2003-09-30 10:55:41

Anywhere you go, there you are.

Palomar · 2003-09-30 11:07:27

My perception (which of course could be wrong) is that many people (not implying anyone here is this way) don't quite understand that "The American Dream" is NOT a guaranteed thing.
Well yeah, but then is it really a 'dream'? Nothing is guaranteed anywhere. If these migrants realized that it wasn't guaranteed (or at least, if the chances weren't as great as most really think), they wouldn't make the trek. This was the point of the documentory; that migrants have visions of grandure and think that it's all great and lovely. This preception certainly needs to be erradicated.

*I think it used to be a "dream." It still is for many people. It's definitely a misleading phrase; I agree with you there.

I wish I had some answers. I know how disheartening, and discouraging the situation is.

Ask my husband, who's disabled and because of his seizures cannot get a job (no one will hire him). What Social Security Disability he gets per month is below the poverty line (although he worked and worked HARD for YEARS, paying into the system). If he has to go to the hospital, it's $780.00 copay upfront with Medicare for the year. Contrast this to a Mexican National who crosses the border, gets a nail in his foot, goes to the local emergency room and gets entirely FREE medical care. And heck, if the Mexican National goes to California he can later get a driver's license and maybe even FREE college!

--Cindy

Byron · 2003-09-30 11:47:03

Contrast this to a Mexican National who crosses the border, gets a nail in his foot, goes to the local emergency room and gets entirely FREE medical care. And heck, if the Mexican National goes to California he can later get a driver's license and maybe even FREE college!

That sort of thing has to stop..immediately... If the Mexicans can get it for free, so should everyone else...otherwise they can just go back home and use their own hospitals...

clark · 2003-09-30 11:49:15

yeah, let people who are injured bleed in the street.

Byron · 2003-09-30 12:19:22

yeah, let people who are injured bleed in the street.

I got a better idea...let us have the free care also, *just like they do in Canada*....that's the best way, isn't it??

B

clark · 2003-09-30 12:23:03

or, keep it as it is, and you and I can still go to any emergency room and get treated.

clark · 2003-09-30 12:37:04

and now for something completely inappropriate!

Josh Cryer · 2003-09-30 12:39:15

Something inappropriate... you like HMOs? :;):

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Re: Apropos of Nothing

#280 2003-09-29 13:18:08

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#281 2003-09-29 14:20:44

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#282 2003-09-30 05:31:50

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#283 2003-09-30 05:41:05

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#284 2003-09-30 07:24:36

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#285 2003-09-30 07:52:14

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#286 2003-09-30 08:50:12

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#287 2003-09-30 08:55:56

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#288 2003-09-30 09:10:54

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#289 2003-09-30 09:45:39

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#290 2003-09-30 10:48:29

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#291 2003-09-30 10:49:47

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#292 2003-09-30 10:53:15

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#293 2003-09-30 10:55:41

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#294 2003-09-30 11:07:27

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#295 2003-09-30 11:47:03

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#296 2003-09-30 11:49:15

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#297 2003-09-30 12:19:22

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#298 2003-09-30 12:23:03

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#299 2003-09-30 12:37:04

Re: Apropos of Nothing

#300 2003-09-30 12:39:15

Re: Apropos of Nothing

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