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#76 2023-01-01 19:52:04

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

ouch for the delays but here is an 8-year indicated.
Regulatory Barriers to Geothermal Energy

https://www.doi.gov/ocl/geothermal-energy-development

Role of regulatory delays in the development of geothermal energy in the United States

One would think that a checklist would be available to be able to get the process quicker.
GEOTHERMAL GUIDANCE

This is sort of the means to the end by using the vent heat when in use

https://youtu.be/0gxbGD5f9og

I am also looking to gain volume of the working fluids level of heat and believe the flat plate collector will be the answer.

flat%20plate%20colllector%281%29.png

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#77 2023-01-02 09:35:01

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Here is a Styrofoam cup model of the shape of a light house with the cutout made for the winter window of my site. The opening is consistent with what I have all year round at the location where sun hits.

sTXpe3b.jpg

It is sitting on a paper plate. I am looking to place 2 solar panels at the top and angle them to drive a motor for self-centering tracking of the tower. It was mentioned in the post 73

I am looking to build it out of light mass materials. I have seen foam panels that have a metal backing on one side that may work if they are shiny enough. The collection tube could be the average hot water furnace baseboard heating unit or an array of them creating a flat plate collector.


Here are some of those base board tube designs

This is a 3/4 trade copper with fins that come in 6 or 8 ft lengths.
Query?ASSET_ID=1789118&USE_TYPE=ATG_PRIMARY_STANDARD_IMAGE&PRODUCT_ID=1731050&dARImageVersion=04152020

Here is the radiator style
finned-tube-heat-exchanger-500x500.jpg

Here is the tubing that is without the fin or plate to aid in collection which can be self-made in the shape that is needed.
dbb42bdd5748d2f0421e58ecf37f9059.jpg

Concept is still coming together as material knowledge is gained for construction of this unit.

Video solar thermal types

https://youtu.be/i1oMEje541E

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#78 2023-01-02 09:55:58

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,135

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

For all who might be interested in posting links to images .... Steve Stewart just (quite recently) posted a very clear explanation of the process.  Congratulations to everyone who takes advantage of this free service, and I hope the investors who fund the web site are earning enough income to sustain the site.
(th)

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#79 2023-01-03 07:23:56

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,572

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Interesting quote from Wiki.

'Besides heat generated by molten rock, Mars has had much heat produced when asteroids impacted its surface making giant craters. The area around a large impact may take hundreds of thousands of years to cool.[4]'

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_resources_on_Mars

Some examples:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3512000176
https://studylib.net/doc/14360163/a-ver … er-on-mars

Last edited by Calliban (2023-01-03 07:32:59)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#80 2023-01-03 20:32:46

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Yes, an impact is quite a generating source but that's it since you cannot collect it fast enough to store that energy.

We also know that the surface due to the change will release a bit of atmospheric gasses as well.

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#81 2023-01-07 18:55:03

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Yesterday's few inches of snow and a sunny day allowed a means to show where my best solar sites are for the vertical solar concentrator in the shape of a light house.

I was up early this morning at 8 AM and the sun was just touching those areas through the trees to the east just above the horizon as caused by the hillside slope and rise that is highest on the east and lower to the west.

Site #1
This one is pointed at the corner of the property and the well is visible as well just barely in the frame center left along the edge with a dirt driveway

294iiW5.jpg

Here is facing east towards site #2

BggsPtB.jpg

I am thinking that this one will turn possibly 90' or less, so that it will get the morning and even sun.

Here is the high noon image from behind where it would rest
QNnyGGo.jpg

I decided to go up on the roof and took a shot at some 20 feet towards the western view as the sun sets
ITmlK1F.jpg

and took a shot at the east
5M8WHVj.jpg

As one can see my back side of the house will get solar but it's almost always in shadows from trees.

Site #2
The other is under or near a tree sort of just about mid center along the road frontage. It was taken at the other property line looking back towards the first direction.

QKW1zEK.jpg

This one will be static for rotation

Here is the 1 hour before high noon from that location

DNFNSQu.jpg

The pictures were taken just 1 hour after high noon

PEWl2GF.jpg


This will mean I will get more high noon light on each location and will need to tilt to collect the most energy to follow that suns tracing as it moves east to west.

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#82 2023-01-08 18:44:42

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Solar is not easy for this site for sure and concentrating is the only means after going vertical with a light house shape to make the roadside view appealing to others and hiding the collector that it contains inside it.

Solar would improve once some of the trees are removed but even then, it's not a great change as the sun moves through each of them.

There is a chance to do air collectors on the back wall above the cinder block foundation for afternoon sun, but these are basically a flat box with black tubing that pipes air through it to make it the house cooler air warm going back in. This would have damper vent closures to stop thermal syphon at night as the collector box cools. one could be 4' x 8' at best horizontal long ways and the other could be only slightly longer at 4' by 12' to boost the winter room heating on that side of the house.

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#83 2023-01-08 21:00:34

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Geothermal energy poised for boom, as U.S. looks to follow Iceland’s lead; Some experts believe geothermal development could help reduce American emissions and help avert catastrophic climate change.

At present, geothermal energy, which is derived by using steam heat from underground to generate power, accounts for less than 1% of the U.S. electricity portfolio. Unlike wind and solar energy, which do not produce as much energy in certain conditions, geothermal energy is much more constant. Yet the cost of tapping it can be expensive in places that require extensive digging. In 2021, a kilowatt hour of electricity generated by geothermal cost an average of $3,991 in G20 countries, compared to $857 for utility-scale solar power and $1,325 for on-shore wind.

Recent technological advances, such as “enhanced geothermal systems,” also known as EGS in the industry jargon, may solve that problem, however. Traditionally, geothermal has only been economical in places like Iceland, where heat and water are close to the Earth’s surface. In an EGS, much as in a fracking well, fluid is injected deep underground, causing fractures to open in the rock, which allows hot fluid to rise from far below.

The private sector is also taking tentative steps into geothermal energy. A slew of geothermal energy startups have each raised millions of dollars in capital. Last month, the oil and gas giant Chevron partnered its Chevron New Energies with Sweden’s Baseload Capital to develop geothermal projects in the United States. In 2021, Chevron and BP invested $40 million in Eavor Technologies, a Canadian geothermal energy company. In November of that year, Hawaiian Electric, the Aloha State’s energy utility, unveiled a plan to increase its geothermal generation capacity to help meet its goal of a 70% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by 2030.

“It’s like solar: If you look at solar 20 years ago, nobody’s interested in solar because it costs too much. But as solar has grown, the cost has come down as it’s improved in scale,” Horne said.

Wells roughly 1,500 to 1,900 meters (4,900 to 6,200 feet) deep bring up water at 70 degrees Celsius (158 degrees Fahrenheit) that is used to heat homes. In an area where families previously burned coal for heat, the result has been a dramatic cut in carbon emissions and conventional air pollutants like smog. Orka and the Icelandic firm Mannvit are also building power plants that will produce electricity from geothermal in countries including Slovenia and Hungary.

Geothermal accounts for 6% of the electricity produced in California and 10% in Nevada. Hawaii, Utah, Oregon and Idaho have geothermal plants as well. Like Iceland, where 27% of the electricity and heating in 90% of homes comes from geothermal, these western states have volcanic activity that brings heat close to the Earth’s surface. That makes geothermal more economically viable than in the eastern half of the U.S., where heat tends to be buried deeper underground.

“The reason we have [geothermal] in the western states, and the reason they have it in Iceland, is basically geological advantage,” Horne said. “If you go to New York state, you don’t find that sort of recent volcanic activity, so to get to higher temperatures, you’ve got to drill a lot deeper, and that, of course, is expensive.”

Skeptics of geothermal’s potential note the technological challenges to drilling deeper.

Garrison is working on making geothermal energy cost-competitive by finding cheaper ways of drilling deeper, where the heat is greater and would deliver more electricity production. Altarock is building a demonstration project at the Newberry Volcano in Oregon, to bring up water of more than 400 degrees Centigrade from 14,000 feet below ground. At 374 degrees Centigrade, water reaches a state known as “supercritical,” at which it flows with the ease of gas but carries the energy density of a liquid, so it would provide far more bang for the buck when piped to the surface.

“You couple that with the fact that, at the surface, power plants work much more efficiently at higher temperatures,” Garrison said. “So a power plant using an input of 400C is going to be twice as efficient as 200C water.”

Bringing up water that hot in states like New York would require going 20,000 to 30,000 feet below ground. So, with support from DOE, AltaRock is currently working in a laboratory with a company called Quaise Energy on using millimeter wave technology — essentially a heat ray — to vaporize rock.

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#84 2023-01-14 12:40:11

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,135

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Plasma drilling appears to be a technology that can assist with transition to geothermal energy.

Here is a list of topics Google came up with .... if anyone in the NewMars membership has time to explore one or more of these, posts with summaries would be helpful ...

plasma drilling Google search

geothermal
company
machine

for rapid electric underground

slovakia
for oil
cut holes

deep drilling technology

mit plasma drilling

(th)

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#85 2023-01-14 17:55:13

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Definitely a need when drilling into geo heat active areas and along with that is the pipe and capping system to make it work.

Most of us will not have the knowledge or the means to drill to a hot layer of the earth to be able to take advantage of it to generate power or heating for a large scale operations.

With that in mind what is the size of a daily need to create power or heating or any other items of need from a tank of collected thermal heat energy?

Of course that tank might need to cover many days of no solar input in which the alternative must be used to creat that stored ability.

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#86 2023-01-14 18:26:47

tahanson43206
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Posts: 18,135

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

For SpaceNut re home heating and power from geothermal energy ....

In a recent post, you showed us several views of the New Hampshire landscape in January.  I've been thinking about that presentation, which showed the Sun low on the horizon in the middle of the day, with trees blocking the view.  Your concept (as I understand it) is/was to build a tower (light house style) to collect what sunlight might be available.

It seems to me that a geothermal installation would have unlimited heating/power potential for hundreds of years, so an investment in a system would raise the value of the property.  It is even possible that the system might produce enough energy so that the excess not needed by the home owner could be sold to the local utility, just as solar power is sold in some regions.  Unlike with solar power, a geothermal well should have long life designed in from the start, so maintenance costs would be less over the long run, than would be the case for solar or wind production.

I'd like to toss into the discussion the observation that existing (and planned) geothermal installations seem to involve just one drilled hole.   I'd like to suggest consideration of two holes, so that one can continuously deliver hot water up to the surface, while cold water returns to the underground heat site via the other.

All home water heating systems (that I know about) employ a loop structure like that.

***
Existing drilling operations have a problem returning waste to the surface, although I understand that commercial oil drillers may use a liquid ? mud ? to return drilled material to the surface.

In any case, what I'm imagining is the use of parallel lines to provide a path for return of material to the surface.

(th)

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#87 2023-01-14 18:58:41

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Since there is no heat in my ground as seem from the artesian well that is drilled to a depth of 280 ft the only thing to do is to create a large 3ft diameter bore that is lined as an earth storage container for the collected heat as shown earlier. Otherwise, is a tank storage somewhere else.
I still do not have a working knowledge of how hot the working fluid will get for the design.

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#88 2023-01-14 19:11:16

tahanson43206
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Posts: 18,135

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

For SpaceNut re #87

If you can get down 250 feet, then you would appear to be well situated for a heat pump.

The ground will remain a constant temperature all year round.  I've seen an estimate of 50 degrees but that is just a working figure for starting a discussion.  You can discover your particular situation by dropping a probe to the bottom of your existing well.

50 degree water applied to the backs of your solar panels would increase their efficiency (based upon an earlier post you provided).

The heat pump concept fits inside this topic, although it is a very small part of the heat management possibilities available if drill kilometers down

If you (or someone in your neighborhood) drills kilometers down, then the heat supply will last for hundreds of years.

It is the prospect of generating power for hundreds of years that would make the investment worth someone's time.

There are folks who deal in financing long term projects.  No one in the existing forum membership appears to have the needed skills. You'd have to search in your community to find someone able to assist with computing the cost/payback structures. That person would know about and take into account a variety of incentives available from various levels of government.

A heat pump is something you could probably evaluate on your own.  You appear to have the basis of a high quality system, based upon your existing well.

(th)

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#89 2023-01-14 20:17:48

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Not really looking to buy or pay for the electricity for a heat pump.

For a thermal well one might use

Modern dug wells come in many variations, here in New Hampshire the most common are dug using heavy equipment to dig a deep hole and then to place from three to six 3′ tall, 3′ to 4′ in diameter pre-formed concrete culvert pipe into place which can then be backfilled.

Just did a search for how deep and it returns.

SHALLOW OR DUG WATER WELLS VS DRILLED OR POUNDED WATER WELLS PROS AND CONS.

Here in New Hampshire we see drilled wells from 100 to 2000 feet deep.  While both extremes are uncommon you can expect your well to be somewhere in the middle. At McBride’s Water Advantage, most of the drilled wells we work in and around are 200 to 600 feet deep. Submersible pumps are generally used with a pressure tank inside the home to pressurize and provide water to the home, outbuildings and for irrigation. Drilled wells utilize ground water.

In New Hampshire drilled wells should be tested for, Flouride, Chloride, Nitrate, Nitrite, PH, Hardness, Sodium, Iron, Manganese, Copper, Lead, Total Coliform Bacteria, Arsenic total, Arsenic type 3, Arsenic type 5 and Radon in water.
Drilled wells are far less time consuming (one to four days) to drill than pounded wells and in most cases are far deeper.

https://www.usgs.gov/special-topics/wat … sian-wells

https://www.des.nh.gov/water/groundwate … -inventory

A majority of the system depending on temperature of operation can come from standard boiler furnace parts as well as baseboard heating parts. Even boiler tanks and expansion, venting ect as well.

Baseboard heat sizing

Estimate the design heating load of each room. Assume there will be a 20 degree F drop around the baseboard circuit. Subtract half of this 20 degree F drop, (10 degrees F) from the boiler outlet temperature to get the average temperature of the water in the circuit. Estimate the design heating load of each room. Assume there will be a 20 degree F drop around the baseboard circuit. Subtract half of this 20 degree F drop, (10 degrees F) from the boiler outlet temperature to get the average temperature of the water in the circuit. Look up the Btu/hour output per foot of baseboard element in the manufacturer’s literature. Divide this heat output per foot into the design heating load of each room to get the necessary length of baseboard. Look up the Btu/hour output per foot of baseboard element in the manufacturer’s literature. Divide this heat output per foot into the design heating load of each room to get the necessary length of baseboard.

Another sizing for baseboards?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdnassets.hw.net%2F31%2F66%2F52fac7f2457c9e80954341607e3e%2Fcomponents-of-a-hydronic-baseboard-system.JPG

This also is the solar light house tower in that the furnace is the tower for what is heating the liquid used in the system.

Heating by baseboard calculating


?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdnassets.hw.net%2Ff0%2F79%2F0ff792f6454b861bc22ea49e2880%2Fsizing-chart-2.jpg

?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdnassets.hw.net%2Fc2%2Fe6%2F34ecd7dc42c59e2025e748bd49c1%2Fsizing-1.jpg

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#90 2023-01-15 20:18:38

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Some links for solar diy heating

https://nlsolarheating.solartubs.com/

https://www.solartubs.com/solar-evacuated-tube.html

https://www.diyscraftsy.com/diy-solar-water-heater/

https://freeonplate.com/diy-solar-panels/

These are covering several types of collectors for solar from air heating to liquids.

edit
science experiment has continued today to understand my heating requirement.

To satisfy the equation of heat creation - lose rate = stable heat in the home. Not all will have these same numbers to work from as square footage matters, your own numbers for lose rate as well and what final temperature that you desire will come into play.

Split level ranch is 2 separate floors of which basement is cinder block and will be 50 or less as dependent of concrete block wicking.
Upper living area is standard wall construction. Area is 42 ft x 20 for each and while there are 6 rooms upstairs for living, they are not all the same shape or size, but we will go with the average to work the numbers as if they were. Depending on how high the ceilings are you may need more or less heat but with the standard 8ft ceilings for this exercise.

So, go from wattage, to get btu's and temperature we are going to need to convert measurements as well go from the various units.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air- … _1136.html

1 BTU is enough heat to raise the temperature of 1 pound of water by 1°F. which is liquid heating but the table on the page should give a ballpark for the answers we desired.

heating-btu-us-climate-zones-for-calculating-heating-btu-requirements-per-sq-ft.jpg

zone 6 at 1000 sq ft is 55000 BTU according to the page calculator

The electric close dryer made by Kenmore is vented into the room that is with these temperature measurements.

Starting at 50'F and risings in a 1/2 hour to what seems to be the stable 60" even after multiple hours running.
That said we know the energy created - unknown is calculated = to the stable temperature from these values for 1 room average size on this floor.

The temperature a dryer reaches depends on the make and model of the dryer, as well as the setting at which the dryer is running. Your dryer uses heat to warm the water in your clothes and turn it into vapor. On average, most dryers can get around 125 to 135 degrees Fahrenheit exhaust heat with the internal drum getting to 150 or 176 degrees Fahrenheit to kill germs

https://appliantology.org/blogs/entry/1 … t-airflow/

Typically, a dryer will exhaust around 100 to 250 CFM. This is assuming that your dryer’s capacity, ductwork, and other influencing factors are of standard value. But once these influencing factors change, the exact rate your dryer exhausts air will alter as well.

converting cfm and btu
https://learnmetrics.com/how-many-cfm-p … btu-to-cfm

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#91 2023-01-16 15:27:21

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Since I have had some not so good solar days for capturing thermal energy from the systems design, I am now looking at how to supplement het energy source, electrical as part of its design in the end. i have noted that 2 weeks without power has occurred several times while I have lived at my site. With that in mind how many days do we not get sunshine may be just as bad.

This does give the ability to check daily as well as archived information.
https://www.weathertab.com/en/c/united- … anchester/

Average day information
https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/ … -month.php

Number of Sunny Days
In these tables, the average numbers of Sunny Days for places in New Hampshire are the total days each month or year when the sky is mostly clear. This includes the days when cloud covers up to 30% of the sky during daylight hours.

Partly Sunny Days have cloud covering from 40% to 70% of the sky during the daytime.

This sort of accounts for the days where the max levels will be less to consider when looking to get into solar derived energy sources.

Days with clear skies in Concord, New Hampshire
           Sunny    Partly Sunny    Total Days With Sun
January          9          7            16
February          8          8            16
March          8          8            16
April                  7          8            15
May                  6         10            16
June                  6         12            18
July                  7         12            19
August          8         11            19
September       9          9            18
October          9          9            18
November          6          8            14
December          8          8            16
Annual        90        109           199


It appears that only 50% of the days I cannot count on for power energy collection at all.
With only 25% able to obtain full power.
No wonder solar panels systems are doing so poorly for payback years and even with net metering why you end up still paying for a large amount of one's billing each month.

So, if we know how much we need from the system for daily use we can now size the storage to the point that what we collect in the good days give all of the numbers to size the system.

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#92 2023-01-21 21:45:17

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

I just watched a sand battery video where the wood is burnt inside the chamber and the heat is absorbed by 40 kg of sand. The temperature of the container of sand would reach easily 400 to 700 F after an hour of burn time. It would take 3 hours to dissipate that back to its original starting temperature.

Since I have tried a wood stove in the basement in the past that was way more than an hour to not get much heat upstairs its worth a shot to see if the sand construction would change that since more heat would be captured as the heat is sent mostly up the chimney normally.

The flue that is inside the chamber is similar to that which I have seen for a propane hot water tank. Design it in the same manner should also improve the sand's ability to get more heat.

I decided to clear where the structures for the solar tower might go just to make use of the foot of snow so as to be able to see once boundary setbacks were mark for a 10 ft diameter base with the possible add on shed around the well head would appear at that location near the road.

I may do the same for the other 2 sites that also run along the road frontage as they might be a little larger for diameter if they will fit.


https://youtu.be/D5mznXjkhQM

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#93 2023-01-22 15:23:58

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,135

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

For SpaceNut re #92

Thank you for the report on a sand "battery" to hold heat from firewood.

It reminded me of two things ...

Out in the "old West" (if movies are to be believed) it was not uncommon for travelers to heat rocks in a fire pit, and then cover them with dirt, before laying out bedding for the night.  If these anecdotes are to be believed, the stored heat kept the ground warm all night long.

The ** other ** memory comes from reading, long ago and far away .... If memory serves, Romans heated their public baths with firewood, and routed the hot exhaust gases through channels under the floor.

Your home was probably designed and built in America of the 20th Century, without a thought to these ancient practices.

If you wanted to emulate the Romans, a bit of investment would be required, but the result ** should ** be long lasting, or at least as long as firewood remains available. 

I still think your ** best ** direction to look is the inexhaustible supply of thermal energy right under your feet.  The fission reactions in the Core are going to continue for many years, so investment in a capability of drawing that energy will add to the value of the property, so you ** should ** get your money back, and enjoy both power and heat for many years.

(th)

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#94 2023-01-22 18:46:56

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Sure would be nice to solve this system so as to be able to build it but after these almost a week of no sun I can see that the amount of stored heat needs to be quite large or have a backup system to take its place for sure.

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#95 2023-01-27 08:21:32

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,135

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Here is a YouTube video about a project to drill 90 shallow holes in the US, in the middle of a city.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN_gB5QyIiE

1,496 views  Sep 19, 2022  TROY
The video will be covering a Geothermal project Reliable Pump and Well was contracted to do in Troy, New York.  it consisted of 90 450 foot deep geothermal wells, all of which had to be looped and grouted.  The machines being used in this project are two Epiroc TH 60 Drill Rigs, along with a Western Star, International, and BobCat skid steer.

(th)

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#96 2023-01-27 19:32:34

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

I took a quick look at the video and it shows a tar or asphalt surface as well as a single hole to depth is over $6,000 to 15,000 depending on the drilling difficulty.

It's one of the reasons to look at all choices other than paying the electrical company since all they are going to do is keep rising the rates that you pay.

So, the solar concentrator is a do able for the most part with site selection planning to size it to generate while you can at the highest level of thermal capability.

It uses well defined parts from base board water heating systems including tanks that while they are meant for oil can be used for other sections to aid in fabrication such as a sand battery storage. You also need a tank as well for the excess store of water heat as well to make use of for bath and other uses.

Now if you can get the temperatures up via a more concentrating system to create steam then you now have supplemental power to not only power the flow of the pumps and for electrical elsewhere in the system. If the only means is net metering to bank the excess that is what you do for later when you need it.

All these activities will reduce the amount of solar PV panels and batteries if so desired. It will also reduce the need for fuels to run things and for power generation as well.

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#97 2023-01-28 15:05:00

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,390

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

I think your efforts are worth continuation.  You are seeming to seek to find a very local way to enhance energy manipulations.

This, article I found is gratifying as it is something I have been hoping for:

https://techxplore.com/news/2023-01-geo … d-oil.html
Quote:

JANUARY 26, 2023

Geothermal 'battery' repurposes abandoned oil and gas well in Illinois, researchers report
by Lois Yoksoulian, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Image Quote: geothermal-battery-rep.jpg

Apparently, some pre-existing wells can be put to good use.

The frack wells out in the Dakotas and Texas?  Maybe, I don't know.

One thing about places with less water is that if you have energy, then water recycling, and extraction from the atmosphere become more practical, maybe economical.

It is my suspicion that for places like the Dakota's that may get snow, vertical east/west solar panels might do very nicely and shade the ground so that desirable vegetation might be assisted.  If you have repurposed wells that you can store excess solar energy, or wind energy, then you might be arriving at some method to have reliable power.

And of course with Eavor or other such companies, you might even tap into geothermal energy.

https://www.eavor.com/

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-28 15:14:24)


Done.

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#98 2023-01-28 19:08:42

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

"It is a win-win situation."

Researchers Successfully Turn Abandoned Oil Well Into Giant Geothermal Battery

The Illinois Basin, a large geological feature that stretches underneath almost the entire state, contains spongelike rock and minerals with excellent thermal conductivity. Insulating layers ensure that all the heat doesn't get dissipated immediately.


In a test, Baser and his team injected water preheated to 122 degrees Fahrenheit into a layer of porous sandstone 3,000 feet under the surface using the abandoned oil well. The results were surprising.

"Our field results, combined with further numerical modeling, find that the process can sustain a thermal storage efficiency of 82 percent," Baser said.

According to the new study, it would even be an economically viable and even profitable system, producing electricity at a competitive $0.138 per kilowatt-hour.

"Our findings show that the Illinois Basin can be an effective means to store excess heat energy from industrial sources and eventually more sustainable sources like wind and solar," Baser concluded.


This becomes the use rate equation that I am looking to solve which is the size of reserve to temperature boost desired. Where the volume of temperature is a large portion of the system that we will be making use of. It is important to note that the upper end of the temperature stored is the delay to cool down in the external use system such as the base board heating. It's a control of the temperature that we are trying to make use of.

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#99 2023-01-28 20:31:47

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,390

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

It is encouraging.

So, then rock strata are to be more than minerals and water resources.

So, then the things that allow larger population concentrations while maintaining a good standard of living may have rock strata that can store heat as an important factor.

Two things may make solar more plausible for higher latitudes.  Solar suitable for the climates of those places, and the ability to long term store heat in a manner similar to the article.  For various reasons I favor solar panels in a vertical facing east west.  (Snow) Of course roof panels are fine also.  And using heliostats, in the sunny parts of the year you might stuff a lot of heat down there.

Another factor is storage of this nature would create a market for homeowners with solar panels to sell their excess power into in the warm months.

And of course, wind.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-28 20:35:44)


Done.

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#100 2023-01-29 02:54:50

Terraformer
Member
From: The Fortunate Isles
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,858
Website

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

They can't be getting a good conversion efficiency when their heat source is only at 50C. That $0.138 per kilowatt-hour cost will only work if the heat is free; if they're purchasing wind or solar electricity, is the plan to use a heat pump to draw energy out of a different part of the ground? Unless of course they plan to set up a cheap solar thermal collector array -- 50C is within the capability of flat plate solar collectors.

If they do decide to use heat pumps or something like that, rock that can store heat well should be able to store cold well too, and that heat has to be drawn out of somewhere... having a heat sink that's a lot colder than ambient will let them draw more energy out.

But again, how do real world heat engines compare to theoretical efficiency?


Use what is abundant and build to last

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