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#376 2023-12-20 14:44:35

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,206

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

The title on this video is misleading, and the early part of the video is tedious, but it holds some interesting information.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbk0dkFpG8Y
Quote:

Elon Musk Just Found A "ROCK" That Can Power His Gigafactory!

Elon Musk

They mention special shaped Carbon Blocks to be used to store heat.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/could-storing … es-storage
Image Quote: concrete-bricks.jpg?id=27044623&width=1200&height=900

The holes allow light to shine from the core of the storage device to a utilization.  Doors then allow the light flow to be modulated it seems.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-20 14:49:56)


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#377 2023-12-20 18:21:19

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Sure, a brick made of a material which is got to come from other sources to be made use of. With this one just lying around for it to be used.
Scientists Intrigued By Battery That Stores Energy in Hot Rocks

By collecting the heating rays of the Sun through photovoltaic solar panels, the startup is heating up rocks to almost 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

Antora is now attempting to find the best combination of rocks to store the most energy in the most efficient way possible. One intriguing candidate is graphite, which can hold huge amounts of heat.

That is a lot of heat to insulate and control.

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#378 2023-12-20 19:33:58

Void
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

But it bodes better for the future.  Imagine the Carbon problem being solved by Carbon.

Now what happens if coal miners mine coal to make Carbon products such as graphite bricks.   Granted it might be better to pull Carbon from the air or water, but it is an odd turn when Carbon solves Carbon.

For your thermal notions for homes, another strange twist could be that a hot attic is a good thing.  When attics get hot is a similar time to when solar electric would peak.  So, then what about purposely making an attic that gets hot?  As long as you have the means to push the heat into a heat sink, it may pay off.

How to remove hot air from an attic: https://atticsandmore.com/how-to-remove … rom-attic/
Hmmm...........Remove hot air with a solar fan.

Some may not want a heat pump/air conditioner, but I would seek to couple the removal of heat from a house in the summer with the removal of heat from an attic, provide you could stuff the heat into a thermal reservoir.

I would even wonder if sometimes an attic could be made to be like a greenhouse to purposely get warm/hot.  I would even wonder if people could have mirrors to shine extra light on such an attic.

Perhaps your Optimus robot could move the mirror every number of minutes.  Now there is a task for tesla bot.  Just spend all day turning an array of mirrors to a target.

Of course, any such attic has to be made fire safe somehow.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-12-20 19:46:37)


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#379 2023-12-21 12:38:17

Void
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

I have encountered an interesting video on Liquid Air Batteries.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

Liquid Air batteries revealed with ability to provide power for longer than lithium, The Electric Viking

Now what I am thinking about just now is how to join such devices to Geothermal and Geothermal Battery processes.

In the case of water based geothermal wells, you could go down to low temperatures in expansion of the liquid air to generate electricity.

If you were to use an Eavor well with hydrocarbon fluids in it, you might go well below the freezing point of water in the well.

In the case where you have sunshine daily on a fairly regular basis, you could generate liquid air daily, and also heat from compressing the liquid air.  Couple that with heat pumps and you could get some level of industrial heat during the day.  You might use that or store it in a thermal battery.  But anyway, if your method of storage is liquid air then you might be able to make rather feeble geothermal very useful.

Perhaps more than one well.  I don't know if you would ever want to push liquid air down a Eavor well though, probably some bad effects. 

More thinking might be wanted.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-21 12:57:37)


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#380 2023-12-22 19:33:58

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

https://thermaplate.com/
Render2.png

ThermaPlate is a design and build manufacturer of pillow plate type heat exchangers.

https://www.solexthermal.com/industries … and-sands/

https://netl.doe.gov/sites/default/file … Maxson.pdf
Sand Thermal Energy Storage (SandTES) Pilot Design

Have been watching a number of DYI burning of wood catching the heat from the chamber and exhaust pipe flowing through the container that can be removed from an outside wood stove to the interior of a home to be set on a stand after heating for 1 -2 hours with heat delivered for a good 6 - 8 hours still too hot to the touch on its outside surface.
Making section that can be stacked and lifted in small weight can also be done rather than a large chamber of sand.
Also giving the heat of exhaust to stay in contact with the holders of the sand would also cause a large amount of heat to be stored as well.
It may be possible to make these with sheet steel rather than a thick plate.

Here is the solar heat pump style
left-image-shows-schematic-of-the-heat-storage-system-during-the-day-with-solar-panels-capturing-energy-and-heating-up-the-sand.jpg?id=32357185&width=1272&quality=85

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#381 2023-12-24 15:51:37

tahanson43206
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/abandoned-co … 00036.html

The article at the link above is about "mining" heat from abandoned coal mines.

It appears that some pioneering work may have been done in Great Britain, where (I understand) industrial scale coal mining had it's start.

The Cool Down
Abandoned coal mines are getting a second life with ‘untapped energy source’: ‘Turning … this liability into a resource’

Doric Sam
Sat, December 23, 2023 at 11:30 PM EST·2 min read
250 comments


Abandoned coal mines are getting a second life with ‘untapped energy source’: ‘Turning … this liability into a resource’

Abandoned coal mines will soon serve a new purpose that will benefit the environment thanks to an initiative from the Biden administration.

In May, it was announced that $450 million from the Inflation Reduction and Infrastructure laws will be used toward clean energy projects, like solar farms, at former coal mines.

“In a less predictable climate and in a warmer world, this opens up an opportunity for turning this legacy, this liability, into a resource,” Natalie Kruse-Daniels, a professor and director of the Environmental Studies Program at Ohio University, told CNBC.

In addition to solar farms, the coal mines provide a new opportunity to use geothermal energy. CNBC explained that the water found at abandoned coal mines typically contains heat from below the Earth’s surface. Drilling holes can bring that heat to the surface to be passed through heat exchanges and heat pumps in buildings and homes.

Geothermal energy has a dual benefit, as it can be used for both heating and cooling purposes.

The initiative followed a similar effort from the government in Great Britain, as the country launched a mine-water heating operation near the end of March that would impact over 1,200 homes.

“Each minable scheme poses its different challenges, and there will be expenses involved with drilling boreholes or laying district heat network pipes in the ground,” explained Gareth Farr, head of heat and by-product innovation at the Coal Authority in Mansfield, England. “But hopefully most of these schemes, if not all of them, will be able to operate at a similar or better cost to the traditional fossil-fuel heating schemes we have at the moment.”

Coal fields exist in at least 20 states in the U.S., including more than 4,000 abandoned coal mines in Ohio alone. Kruse-Daniels and her students at Ohio University have been studying which coal mines are close enough to town to be used for geothermal energy.

“It’s this untapped energy source that could reduce bills, that could make energy more efficient, that could reduce some reliance on fossil fuels,” Kruse-Daniels said.

Farr added, “We can store heat in mines, and we do hope that actually this could become part of vital heat storage. Storage is key, of course, for a lot of renewable energies.”

While Americans wait for geothermal energy, they can take advantage of the Inflation Reduction Act by using money provided by the government to renovate their homes with energy-efficient technology like heat pumps or induction stoves.

Join our free newsletter for cool news and actionable info that makes it easy to help yourself while helping the planet.

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#382 2023-12-27 19:58:54

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Based off from the amount of square footage of the home which is 40' x 20' =800 sq ft at a depth of 2 feet of sand placed into an insulated container my front lawn will support such a holding area for heat to be drawn from the summer storage during the winter once built.

Of course, I need a solar collector or other reasonable sources to heat the sand to in the neighborhood of 200' C or better but probably not more than 400' C at its highest.

A wood burning source is possible for the exhaust heat from the flue to be piped through the sand with the runs going multiple lengths through it rather than just once. This means sensors throughout the sand to determine if we are getting it to the levels desired after each burn cycle.

It appears that we have been lied to Agency under fire for allegedly misleading claims about electric heating: ‘Annual federal report … leaves out critical nuance’

The EIA reported that the average customer using heating oil would spend $1,856 this winter, propane would cost $1,337, electricity $1,063, and gas $605. This led many pro-gas publications to celebrate it as the cheapest heating option, the Guardian said.

The gas figure also includes gas appliances such as stoves, but as the Guardian pointed out, most American homes use electricity for way more tasks than gas, so the figure is likely to be more inflated.

Also, there’s more than one type of electric heating, and there’s a wide gap in efficiency between older and newer methods. Resistance heating — think space heaters — generates heat and uses a lot of electricity. But electric heat pumps don’t generate heat; they just move it around — a process that takes one-third to one-half the energy you’d otherwise need to generate the same amount of heat.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 … a-suggests
https://www.thecooldown.com/green-busin … ding-cold/
https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/steo/repor … rticle.php

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#384 2024-01-09 08:32:29

Void
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvl9gMlmWBU
Quote:

The US is flushing enough energy to power 30 million homes down the drain

The Electric Viking
188K subscribers

A target for this cold be townhome associations, I think.  I also think that thermal solar could heat water that could be trickled down drains to load heat into a sewer system.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-09 08:34:41)


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#385 2024-01-21 12:39:15

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Startup develops incredible way to harness hard-to-reach clean energy source: ‘It’s going to be really important’

The Cape Station development could upon completion become the world’s largest geothermal station to use next-gen technologies, and Fervo expects it to generate 80 times more energy than its existing Nevada pilot site, which showed a possible 3.5 megawatts of generating capacity over a 30-day test run, Canary Media said.

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#386 2024-01-28 08:27:15

Void
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

The is a very nice video and the maker has done good work.  But I want to add some corrections to his misunderstandings about fracking: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

Google’s Billion Dollar Gamble: Project RED Revealed!
YouTube
Two Bit da Vinci
88.4K views
1 day ago

To be honest about fracking fluids: https://www.americangeosciences.org/cri … d-disposed

Fracking does not produce earthquakes.  It can be caused by injecting the "Produced" water into rock strata, which is a separate operation.
Extracting oil also brings up water.  That is disposed of by injection into rock strata.  It should not be overdone in some locations.

The poisoning of soils will not happen if the EPA does not allow improper disposal of materials from Fracked wells.  This is the same logic as don't poop in your food bowl, and don't dump plastics in the ocean.

It was proven even under the Obama administration that Gound water was not polluted so long as you did not dump pollutants into the aquifers and water ways.  The water injected far below does not come up to the water table.

The left was weaponized by entities internal and external to our country to try to kill shale oil.  Of course, this would done by those who benefit by producing oil other ways, and those in our country who make money by importing oil.

Our government should crack down on the University system for being a puppet for those in the world who do not have our interests in mind.  The young are easily fooled, and also professors at universities are isolated from reality often, I think.

These are criminal activities that should not be tolerated, this misinformation machine.

Done

But it is a very good video, and he has done a service by producing it.  It looks like geothermal could expand, and I anticipate that over time the technology may continue to improve.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-28 08:54:38)


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#387 2024-02-20 08:03:30

Void
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

I had also wondered about this, but someone seems to have done more than wonder: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani … r-BB1izoyt
Quote:

Tectonic plates beneath seas are clean energy jackpots, finds French firm
Story by Ameya Paleja • 1d

An interesting read. 

Peter Zeihan has also indicated that after all it may be possible to have land based geothermal energy in every state in the USA, provided that the experiments in the previous post turn out good.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-20 08:05:49)


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#388 2024-02-29 09:22:40

Void
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

An empty ghost web site.

Well, here is something we have already had a look at: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/s … r-BB1j4VpG
Quote:

Startup plans project to drill for ‘million-year’ energy source: ‘Our technology allows us to access energy anywhere in the world’  Story by Rick Kazmer • 11h

Quote:

AMassachusetts startup plans to drill more than 12 miles into the Earth to tap what experts call a “million-year energy source” beneath our feet.

Quaise Energy: https://www.quaise.energy/

If it works, I feel that other energy methods research should continue anyway as pilot programs.  The human race prospers as a generalized organism. 

I think that the quest for "The Best and the Brightest" is a mistake to some degree.  Allowing or promoting specialists of one part of a spectrum of human capabilities, may create a feel-good happy nursery for idiot-savants tuned to a particular situation, having broader capabilities, can be paid for by having achieved a windfall of one situation working very well.

Efficiency as the defining priority should only be imposed in a circumstance of necessity.  If it is, then a culture will be narrow and repetitive.
Rather, if you can afford, its capability's also alternate should be fostered, to broaden abilities.

That is of course my opinion.

But looking at the method of Quaise Energy to carve drill holes into rocks, I wonder if its methods could be expanded to diging vaults into bedrock, and also mining.

If I understand the method, microwaves vaporize the rock, and it condenses into a powder to some extent.  If that rock has mineral grains, then the powder may have differentiation as to not be the same mineral for every particle of dust.  This might allow separations of different types of minerals, to a benefit.  Magnetic separation might be an example.  Perhaps centrifuging, a fluidized dust content might also work.

The above might be very valuable in mining our Moon and asteroids.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-29 09:39:07)


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#389 2024-03-11 17:30:33

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Why geothermal constitutes less than 1% of global energy production

Geothermal energy is based on the exploitation of the natural heat of planet Earth, due to the thermal energy released by the natural nuclear decay processes of radioactive elements such as uranium, thorium and potassium, naturally contained in the rocks present within the Earth. The heat generated by these processes causes the temperature to increase with depth, starting from the earth's surface towards the center of the earth, according to a geothermal gradient that varies depending on the types of rocks in place and the geological structures present. This energy can be used both as a source of electricity production and directly as a heat source, according to the cogeneration process.

Currently, almost all of the geothermal systems exploited at an industrial level are conventional systems. The hydrothermal systems that represent them are made up of porous and permeable rock formations in which rainwater and rivers infiltrate and are heated by high-temperature rocks due to the presence of a heat source of magmatic origin at depth.
The temperatures reached vary from 50-60 °C up to a few hundred degrees. This type of circuit constitutes the most widespread and used source of geothermal energy.

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#390 2024-03-15 18:12:46

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

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#391 2024-03-15 19:58:01

tahanson43206
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

For SpaceNut re #390

Thanks for the link to the MIT drilling update ... here is a snippet...

At this depth, the temperature inside the Earth rises to 932 Fahrenheit (500 degrees Celsius). Steam produced at these temperatures is similar to the ones used by coal or gas-fired thermal power plants, and the company intends to replicate the power generation approach using this heat, hence the name deep geothermal energy.

According to a press release, “deep geothermal power plant can create 10x more energy than conventional geothermal resources, provide 24/7 baseload power, and unlock near-universal access to clean energy on a small land footprint.”

What seems (to me at least) significant is that Quaise appears to be moving away from microwave drilling to lasers.

The target depth of 20 km is ** really ** getting to the action depth.

A concern that Calliban raised is still on my mind ... Calliban cautioned that the flow of thermal energy through the mantle may be insufficient to replenish the thermal energy drawn off by human devices.  However, 20 km down may be less subject to this concern. 

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#392 2024-03-16 06:12:12

kbd512
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

tahanson43206,

I'm pretty sure that the pressure from gravitation is producing a colossal amount of direct real energy at all times, even if the surface of the Earth is a highly effective thermal insulator.  To Calliban's point, messing with Earth's core rotation or plate tectonics would be a dire mistake.  I can't think of any reason why we can't use a solar thermal power plant to re-inject heat into the mantle.  Whatever energy we take from the Earth's mantle, we should put back.  Keep a record of how much you take and how much you replace.

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#393 2024-03-16 06:27:56

tahanson43206
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Posts: 17,543

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

For kbd512 re #392

Thanks for adding a contrarian point of view to the mix in this topic.

Since the Earth is constantly providing more energy due to radioactive decay, and since the Earth let's off excess energy by moving plates around and by releasing some via volcano eruptions, I would have thought that drawing energy calmly out of the core would make sense.

Calliban's point was (and may still be) that poor conductivity of melted rock implies that heat cannot be quickly replenished from molten rock if it is drawn out.

There is a monster volcano lurking under the Yellowstone region in the United States, and prudence would suggest drawing off energy from the underlying upwelling of energy from the core would be a good idea.

The best anecdote to fear is numbers.  If there is something to worry about, it should be possible to bring numbers to bear on the problem.

I hope that we have NewMars members who can contribute numbers to this topic, so that the risks of various courses of action (or inaction) can be evaluated.

The energy produced by the core of the Earth cannot be measured directly but it seems possible that measurements have been taken of temperatures below the surface in sufficient number so that an estimate of core thermal output can be measured.

The fact that volcanoes are continuing to erupt means that the excess energy produced in the core is NOT being drawn off calmly, so unpleasant unwanted eruptions are occurring.  Humans are potentially approaching capability of drawing off energy from the core in an intelligent, calm way.

However, your point in post #392 seems (to me at least) well worth considering as we proceed.

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#394 2024-03-27 18:17:28

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

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#395 2024-04-03 21:03:24

Void
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

I think this could be considered a Geothermal Battery: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technol … ba3e&ei=16
Quote:

Engineers develop ultra-efficient electricity storage method using piles of rocks — here's how it works
Story by Susan Elizabeth Turek • 1h • 3 min read

A sort of a sand battery like Polar Nights, I think, but with gravel: https://polarnightenergy.fi/news/2024/1 … production.

They could think to look at coarse tailings at a Taconite Plant for thermal storage.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-04-03 21:07:48)


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#396 2024-04-16 19:46:29

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

America pushes forward with harnessing 'limitless' supply of energy beneath our feet: 'The US can lead the clean-energy future']BB1lI1V0.img?w=640&h=364&m=6

The United States is aiming to increase geothermal capacity by 20 times in the next three decades. The Department of Energy has suggested it could provide as much as 10% of the country's energy needs, as the Guardian noted, with the outlet describing it as a "limitless supply of heat."

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#397 2024-04-20 15:06:45

SpaceNut
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Posts: 29,054

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

How Texas unleashed a geothermal boom

On Wednesday, startup Bedrock Energy unveiled a new geothermal-powered heating and cooling system at a commercial real estate complex in Austin. Earlier this month, next-generation drilling company Quaise — which uses high powered radio waves to drill through hard rock — filed a permit with the state energy regulator to begin field testing its drills, years ahead of what industry insiders had thought was possible. Houston-based Fervo is building a 400-megawatt project in Utah. Military bases across the state are looking into geothermal as a potential source of secure electricity in an era of price spikes and cyberattacks.

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