New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: This forum is accepting new registrations by emailing newmarsmember * gmail.com become a registered member. Read the Recruiting expertise for NewMars Forum topic in Meta New Mars for other information for this process.

#351 2023-09-12 09:06:04

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,395

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Well, this is new to me, I understand that others may be well aware of it.

https://undecidedmf.com/why-co2-heat-pu … f-cooling/
Quote:

Why CO2 Heat Pumps Are The Future Of Cooling
Matt Ferrell By MATT FERRELL and JON OKUN 33 seconds ago

Most worlds we might access could use something like this perhaps.

On Mars, it is possible that this could be helpful to heat ice covered bodies of waters lower layers. 

Fresh water can have slightly warming water at the bottom than the top, in winter like conditions.

For water with salt gradients, you can heat the bottom very warm, even hot.

Solar ponds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond
Quote:

90 °C is attainable.

So, I think that you could have enternal>Top Water heat pumps to work with the cooler top water.
Then you could have Top Water>Bottom water.  Then you could have Bottom Water>To Heating Needs.

The cold top water could also be used for cooling industrial processes this would be an "External Source".
This could at its source be photovoltaic, and/or Nuclear Fission.
You could also of course as an external source solar thermal.

Of course, as has been indicated elsewhere and elsewhen, the waters of such lakes can support life, particularly with further assistance.  The upper layers can collect some sunlight, and certainly you can put artificial lighting and chemicals into any of the waters.

The above could probably be installed wherever there is a sufficient source of water, but in particular, I like the polar ice caps for long term.  I anticipate that the long summers will be the time of collection of heat, and the long winter nights will be a time to run heat engines efficiently, using CO2.

For the North Cap, you would simply melt all the ice and over time the water would spread over a very large surface.
For the Southern Cap, you would to some degree use natural basins to make a matrix of "Lakes", but in some cases use ice to create long term ice dams.

For worlds like the Moon, sintered rock domes could be of a hot and cold variety.  The Moon probably has enough CO2 for this, and more Carbon could be hard landed to facilitate expansion of the methods.

Many other worlds have plenty of Carbon or can import it.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-12 09:27:02)


Done.

Offline

#352 2023-09-13 18:11:18

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,312

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Offline

#353 2023-10-15 15:59:37

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,395

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Well, this is boring: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

13 miles down and 1000 degrees! Hot enough for you?
YouTube
Just Have a Think
121.2K views
1 month ago

Maybe something like that could work on Mars.

I like to give hope in a world where the "Panic Vendor" are continuously at work.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-15 16:01:11)


Done.

Offline

#354 2023-11-28 10:51:59

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,395

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/g … r-AA1kF92y
Quote:

Google’s new geothermal energy project is up and running
Story by Justine Calma  •
3h

Quote:

This new project actually was built on the outskirts of an existing geothermal field where, in Terrell’s words, “there’s hot rock, but there’s no fluid.” To generate geoethermal energy there, Fervo had to drill two horizontal wells through which it pumps water. Fervo pushes cold water through fractures in the rock, which heats it up so it can generate steam back at the surface. It’s a closed-loop system, so the water gets reused — an important feature in a drought-prone region like Nevada.

So, like Eavorloop, this is closed loop, but they use fracking.

Looking at emerging tech, I have t wonder if we could do something like a CO2 geothermal on Mars.

Done

Another article:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/n … a5b25&ei=5
Quote:

The Associated Press - Business News
The Associated Press - Business News
New Google geothermal electricity project could be a milestone for clean energy
Story by By JENNIFER McDERMOTT  •
4h

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-28 11:16:34)


Done.

Offline

#355 2023-11-28 11:34:01

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,395

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Well, I would like to try to fold this into #353 and #354 posts here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1kBHcv
Quote:

A millennial start-up founder who’s turning carbon emissions into rocks lays out how he’ll eliminate 1 million tons by 2030—and what a great mentor Bill Gates’s Breakthrough Energy has been
Story by Eleanor Pringle  •
1d

What I suggest is not entirely like the above, but what if we could drill wells as per this idea with microwaves? http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 15#p214815
Take the outputted dust waste and bind CO2 to it?

Then make that into some kind of useful object(s).  Perhaps structural objects, perhaps thermal storage objects.

The drilling would then provide a well, and the material to bond CO2 into.  The waste rock would serve a function.

Granted it may not tolerate very high temperatures as that might drive the CO2 out of it again, but it might be useful.



Done

 

Last edited by Void (2023-11-28 11:43:07)


Done.

Offline

#356 2023-11-28 19:14:12

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,312

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

New Google geothermal electricity project could be a milestone for clean energy

AA1kFivp.img?w=534&h=356&m=6

A drill rig stands at a Fervo Energy geothermal site under construction near Milford, Utah, 400-megawatt project

Fervo pumps cold water down an injection well, then over hot rock underground to another well, the production well. The path between is created by fracking, or fracturing the rock. The water heats up to nearly 400 degrees Fahrenheit (200 degrees Celsius) before returning to the surface. Once there, it transfers its heat to another liquid with a low boiling point, creating steam.

Offline

#357 2023-12-07 10:57:29

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,395

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

This may be somewhat redundant to some prior posts, but it is from Peter Zeihan which is interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwgivqvvYDs
Quote:

Generating Geothermal Energy Using Shale Technology || Peter Zeihan

Zeihan on Geopolitics
672K subscribers


My feeling is that this technology could be used for geostorage as well.  If you have excess electricity making hot water to shove down a well should be no problem, so that would fit well with wind and solar.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-07 11:00:24)


Done.

Offline

#358 2023-12-14 14:45:51

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,395

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Here is another article on the Google geothermal: https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lif … 8553&ei=20
Quote:

First-of-its-kind ‘enhanced’ geothermal plant is up and running in the US: ‘This could be a springboard to much, much more’
Story by Rick Kazmer  •
10h

The building of it is by "Fervo".

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-14 14:47:22)


Done.

Offline

#359 2023-12-14 19:38:51

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,312

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Sure if you can dig or drill 8,000 ft. as the couple above indicated.

Offline

#360 2023-12-14 21:59:26

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,177

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

For SpaceNut re 359 .... I think the company is reusing defunct oil wells for this operation.

There are lots of those.  The challenge is to find two wells that are close enough so you can send working fluid down one and pull it up the other, after it heats up by traveling through the broken rocks between the two pipes.

You'd have to so some reading to confirm that.

(th)

Offline

#361 2023-12-14 22:37:54

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,395

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

No, I believe that they are purposely using fracking technology to drill for geothermal.

There are not guarantees on economics, but we can be guaranteed, that the enemies of our culture will struggle to snuff this out.

But for me this is amusing as I believe that there is a substructure to reality and time.  It is easy to earn oneself a curse by going against the will of that substructure.

We should be thankful for what we have and try not to be jealous of what others may achieve.

We are not always all the time the star of the show.

Done


Done.

Offline

#362 2023-12-15 03:57:41

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,582

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

This appears to be a development of what used to be called 'Hot Dry Rock' geothermal energy.  This was first investigated in the 1970s at the Rosemeadows site in Cornwall.  To efficiently extract heat from the rock, fracture pathways must be created in a huge volume of rock.  Horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracturing make it easier to achieve this, making the concept a lot more practical.

The energy source is not entirely renewable, because once heat is extracted from rock it may take many centuries for conduction and radioactive decay to restore the natural temperature gradient in an area.  So it will be neccesary to develop a powerplant that can be easily moved and packed up when an area is exhausted.  But the resource is abundant enough that depletion of the resource on a continental scale is unlikely to be an issue.  The technology is useful for direct heat uses as well as electric power.  Water course contamination is unlikely to be an issue, because the hot rocks are several kilometres beneath the ground.

Something like this could be extremely useful on Mars, if we find areas with sufficiently high thermal gradient.  We are going to need a lot of power and direct heat on Mars.  Even low grade heat in the 0 - 30°C range coukd be useful to us.  The technology is more challenging on Mars, because the crust the is thicker and the geothermal gradient is expected to be shallower.  This means deeper and more expensive drilling, unless we can find areas that contain magma inclusions.  If we do, these will be the places to concentrate polytunnel based agriculture.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-12-15 04:05:48)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Online

#363 2023-12-15 09:53:06

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,395

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

I think that your post is useful Calliban.  I will note that for low quality geothermal on Mars, heat pumps may be of value to make useful heat, and also the low surface temperatures could be of value to generate electricity.

The technology also can be of use without geothermal heat sources.  It could be used with sources of heat and cold.
Sources of heat could be:
1) Air in the Summer Daytime.
2) Solar Thermal.  (Also, may be the cooling of large buildings).
3) Heat Pumps working with #1 and #2.
4) Solar Electric power, intermittent.
5) Wind Electric Power, intermittent.

For Cold we may have:
6) Air in the Winter Nighttime.
7) Solar Thermal Panels in the night or wintertime. (Also, may be the heating of large buildings).
8) Ice Water or ice that may form in a cold climate in cold weather.  An ice harvester needed.
9) Heat Pumps with #6, #7 and #8.
So, we might use the well for periodic thermal storage, and also even seasonal thermal storage.

Of course, all of this could be connected into a local electric power grid, and also community heating or cooling.

The above would have utility in the Mid-Latitudes most of all, which involves much of Europe and North America.  By the way I consider Russia including Siberia to be an ethnographic lobe of Europe.  I consider Atlantic and also Arctic Euoope to be relatable to North America.

And there will always be a bit of geothermal available, which could be helpful as well for hot processes, but might be a detriment for cold storage in fracked wells.

So, if you were to live in a continental climate such as interior high latitude states and provinces in North America:
For Canada, south prairie provinces. You may use the hot air of summer with a heat pump and also various solar methods, wind methods, and stuff heat into the ground.  In the winter you may stuff cold into the ground.

Using summer air>Solar Thermal Panels>Solar Electric>Heat Pump, you might get temperatures of at least 180 degC in the heat of summer.

But also, with extra surge electric power you may heat the 180 degC output higher.    Heat pumps may improve to > 180 degC output.

In the winter we might do the inverse, but may need to use a brine to send very cold temperatures into such a well.

Done.

I think that our populations have been psychologically trained to be defeatist, by those who hold them in an energy bondage.  They don't seem to get that it might be possible to create new resources from raw situations not yet worked with.  They struggled and struggled to kill fracking, succeeded in Europe, but not the USA, or I think Canada.

The population has to be inoculated to resist this mental illness; I feel.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-15 10:21:37)


Done.

Offline

#364 2023-12-18 20:11:01

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,312

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

https://youtu.be/_cyxlheX-qg?si=q8Rg_4hWmx_bDcGW

Solar derived thermal stored energy

Offline

#365 2023-12-19 18:39:06

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,312

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Offline

#366 2023-12-19 20:31:12

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,177

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

For SpaceNut ... your post #365 is a sleeper .... I read it earlier today, and noted your comment that such a system might be retrofitted into an older home if the basement ceiling is high enough, or even if it's not and the home owner is willing to put up with a lower ceiling in return for added comfort during the winter.

However, just now, as I was opening a browser, the usual flood of ads included one about new homes .... It would make sense for ** all ** new homes to be designed from the basement up to include such as system by default.  I would imagine that most home builders in recent decades have been counting upon a supply of water, electricity and gas to keep all their new homes comfortable for at least until they settle with the first buyer.  Now, with climate change looming, it might make sense to start thinking a bit longer term.

(th)

Offline

#367 2023-12-20 02:14:07

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,582

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

SpaceNut wrote:

https://youtu.be/_cyxlheX-qg?si=q8Rg_4hWmx_bDcGW

Solar derived thermal stored energy

This is an interesting approach.  It uses the ground beneath the greenhouse to store summer heat.  The systems involved are simple and cheap.  Something similar could be done for a house.  Even if it doesn't eliminate the need for heating, it can reduce the fuel consumption needed for heating over the course of a year.  The main problem with systems like this is that whilst they would not add much to the cost of a new build, they are more challenging to integrate into existing structures.  In the UK, most of the housing stock was built before the people living in it were born.  To bring housing up to modern efficiency standards, we really need to demolish it and start again.  The reality is that we are stuck with that old dilapodated building stock, because replacing it is such a slow process.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Online

#368 2023-12-20 07:16:10

Terraformer
Member
From: The Fortunate Isles
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,864
Website

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Depends on how many metres of earth you need for insulation. And what the effects of drilling a few metres into the ground inside the house would be...


Use what is abundant and build to last

Offline

#369 2023-12-20 07:44:45

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,177

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

For Terraformer re #368

This concept (as I understand it) would not involve drilling, but instead, excavation.

In the case of SpaceNut's basement, the entire floor would need to be removed, to a depth of at least a meter, and replaced with the new materials.

The process would (again, as I understand it) be similar to the process used to lay pipes in flooring for hot water heating of floors.

The difference would be the intention to store heat in the subflooring when energy is available, instead of burning fossil fuel to heat the fluid for the pipes to circulate, as is done at present.

I think this concept is ** definitely ** worth considering for new construction.

One option that might be available in densely packed older housing districts is (carefully) supporting the existing (ancient) structure with iron/steel beams, while excavation is done.  That method is occasionally used when a house has to be moved, or when the basement is to be enlarged.

This would be a case of enlarging the basement in a vertical direction.  The nature of the walls of the basement can be improved while the work is being done.  Many (if not most) older homes have basement walls built of piled stone.  Those walls might be replaced with modern concrete, with water proofing on the exterior.

All-in-all, this could be a way to extend the life of older structures for additional centuries.

(th)

Offline

#370 2023-12-20 07:57:15

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,582

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Another option would be to skip the excavation of the floor and dig a deep but narrow borehole.  The thermal conductivity of damp soil is about 1W/m.K, wheras rockwool is 0.04W/m.K.  So 25m of damp clay has about the same insulation value as 1m of rockwool.  The downside is that a much longer thermal soak time is needed for the soil to reach a stable temperature gradient.  It may take a few years to get the complete benefit of the seasonal heat store.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Online

#371 2023-12-20 08:09:28

Terraformer
Member
From: The Fortunate Isles
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,864
Website

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

My suggestion is to drill a series of narrow and fairly shallow boreholes to allow the ground to be soaked without (hopefully...) compromising the foundations.

Yeah it will take time to soak the ground. But the heat is free. Wouldn't even need solar collectors, air gets to 25-30c here in Britain during the hottest months.

In terraced houses, most of the heat loss would be to other people's homes.


Use what is abundant and build to last

Offline

#372 2023-12-20 09:01:26

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,177

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

For Terraformer re #371

Is this variation on the theme something that SpaceNut might consider for his home in New Hampshire, where winters are long and cold?

How deep might an "energy well" of this kind need to be?

Humans have quite a bit of experience working with heat flows in this way, for heat pumps.

It seems to me that the difference in your vision is to store energy underground for later retrieval.

The two concepts seem closely related, and indeed, each might complement the other?

Please continue developing your ideas.

There may be an industry waiting to be born from these discussions.

(th)

Offline

#373 2023-12-20 09:57:18

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,312

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

All the types are listed in the wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_ … gy_storage

Seasonal thermal energy storage (STES), also known as inter-seasonal thermal energy storage can serve district heating systems, as well as single buildings or complexes. Among seasonal storages used for heating, the design peak annual temperatures generally are in the range of 27 to 80 °C (81 to 180 °F), and the temperature difference occurring in the storage over the course of a year can be several tens of degrees. Some systems use a heat pump to help charge and discharge the storage during part or all of the cycle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Lan … _Community

If you have a free space one could contruct something along this lane of thinking.
World's first 'sand battery' can store heat at 500C for months at a time. Could it work in Australia?e92bd9ff6562e0276178fb453754bd38?impolicy=wcms_crop_resize&cropH=720&cropW=1280&xPos=0&yPos=0&width=862&height=485

About 230 kilometres north-west of Helsinki, in the town of Kankaanpää, homes, offices and the public swimming pool are being heated by thermal energy stored in a 7-metre steel container filled with 100 tonnes of sand.

The sand is able to store heat at around 500–600 degrees Celsius for months, so solar power generated in the summer can be used to heat homes in the winter.

It can store up to 8 megawatt-hours of energy, which is the capacity of a large, grid-scale lithium battery.

Of course, the amount and temperature are something to consider as a smaller quantity of sand requires a higher temperature to be stored to get the number of BTU's stored to be equivalent. Also, this works for water as a greater volume at a lower temperature achieves the same goal.

The 5 Most Promising Long-Duration Storage Technologies Left Standing

A hybrid system for heat Using Sand to Store Solar Energy]eyJlZGl0cyI6eyJyZXNpemUiOnsid2lkdGgiOjcwMH19LCJidWNrZXQiOiJncmVlbmJ1aWxkaW5nYWR2aXNvci5zMy50YXVudG9uY2xvdWQuY29tIiwia2V5IjoiYXBwXC91cGxvYWRzXC8yMDE4XC8wN1wvMjQyMTE5MjlcL1NvbGFyIHRoZXJtYWwgcGx1cyBzYW5kIC0gUmFkaWFudGVjIC0gNC1tYWluLmpwZyJ9

2-ft. thick bed of sand between his concrete slab and a layer of rigid foam insulation.

Offline

#374 2023-12-20 11:25:50

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,582

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Terraformer wrote:

My suggestion is to drill a series of narrow and fairly shallow boreholes to allow the ground to be soaked without (hopefully...) compromising the foundations.

Yeah it will take time to soak the ground. But the heat is free. Wouldn't even need solar collectors, air gets to 25-30c here in Britain during the hottest months.

In terraced houses, most of the heat loss would be to other people's homes.

About half of total heat loss will be to other people's homes, assuming the roof is well insulated.  Although more than half of wall area borders a neighbours house in a mid terrace, the dT is greater between the inside of the house and outer walls.  But you are correct that a terrace will be more energy efficient all else being equal.

I'm not sure about the efficacy of pumping warm air through the bore hole.  Air is 900x less dense than water at 30°C and has 4000x less volumetric heat capacity.  I would need to model it to be sure.  Also, gathering heat at temperatures of 20-30°C won't be much good if you want to heat you house to 20°C in winter.  Volumetric heat capacity is proportional to dT, i.e the difference between the fully charged temperature the store and the house.  Heat transfer rates are proportional to dT across heat exchangers.  If the store is only a few degrees warmer than the house, heat transfer rates will be low, or you need a large heat transfer area.  I would suggest a matt black concrete floor, with a coiled water filled hosepipe an inch or two beneath the surface to gather heat for the bore hole.  During, summer, you pump hot water down the hole.  In autumn and winter, natural circulation will carry heat out of the well into the floor.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Online

#375 2023-12-20 11:32:14

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,312

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

A boiler furnace with baseboard heat to air is typically 160F to enter the heating loop of the radiant panels. so, a liquid that is stored needs to be at least that amount. Or be able to get that much from sand with a loop running through it to heat a home. Seem a heat pump is lower
Introduction to Water Source Heat Pump Systems Part 3: Basic Operation

Typically in commercial applications, multiple WSHPs are connected to a common water loop which is maintained within an operating temperature range of 60°F to 90°F. When more zones need heating than cooling, the loop temperature drops (approaching 60°F) and the boiler may be activated to make up the heat deficit, thus returning the loop to its operating range. When more zones need cooling than heating, the loop temperature rises (approaching 90°F) and the cooling tower may be activated to reject the surplus heat.

water-source-heat-pump-refrigeration-circuit.jpg?format=1500w

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB