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#26 2022-11-17 16:49:43

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,352

Re: Making Paper On Mars

kbd512 wrote:

Can someone else's country please put their money where their mouth is and make a serious dollar figure contribution?

Not a bad idea.  But if European countries were run by sensible people, they would have built a large fleet of fast reactors back in the 1990s.  They wouldn't be freezing in the dark after cutting off Russian gas.  Back in the 1960s, Britain made its own jet aeroplanes, ran its own car companies, built British designed nuclear reactors.  We even had our own space programme with succesful launch vehicles.  We had a world beating steel industry.  Between the 1960s and late 80s, we had a fast breeder reactor programme that bore fruit.  All of these things are gone now.  The country was asset stripped between 1990 and 2010 and is now bankrupt, with even its utilities owned by state owned foreign utility companies.  The UK now suffers the most expensive electricity in the world.  British politicians are amongst the most incompetant people ever to walk the Earth.  Souless political idealists, most of whom have never had proper jobs.  None of them have technical educations.  One wonders how such pointless people can be allowed to occupy such important jobs.

Given everything else that these people have completely failed to achieve, is it any wonder that they have not made 'a serious dollar figure contribution' to developing space launch hardware?  These are people that cannot even keep the lights on.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-11-17 17:26:08)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#27 2022-11-17 17:47:45

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 7,361

Re: Making Paper On Mars

We're working on trying to transform at least parts of Mars into a planet with trees.

What's the point of living on Mars if we can have no trees, no animals, and living conditions worse than a prison?

Just a bunch of techies eating soylent green, wondering if the machines really know what tasty wheat tasted like?

No thanks.

ISS has near-zero gravity.  Lots of things don't work properly without gravity, but Mars and even the moon have some gravity, which is one of the reasons we're going there to live, rather than doing laps around the Earth.

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#28 2022-11-17 18:00:10

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 7,361

Re: Making Paper On Mars

Calliban,

Calliban wrote:

Souless political idealists, most of whom have never had proper jobs.  None of them have technical educations.  One wonders how such pointless people can be allowed to occupy such important jobs.

Did anyone from the UK vote them into office?

Give credit where credit is due.

Calliban wrote:

Given everything else that these people have completely failed to achieve, is it any wonder that they have not made 'a serious dollar figure contribution' to developing space launch hardware?  These are people that cannot even keep the lights on.

Since you put it that way, I guess it's not that mysterious.

I was kinda hoping someone would whisper in their ear, or maybe bribe them the way our politicians are bribed to do something useful every so often, typically by accident.

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#29 2022-11-17 18:26:05

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,352

Re: Making Paper On Mars

kbd512 wrote:

We're working on trying to transform at least parts of Mars into a planet with trees.

What's the point of living on Mars if we can have no trees, no animals, and living conditions worse than a prison?

Just a bunch of techies eating soylent green, wondering if the machines really know what tasty wheat tasted like?

No thanks.

The problem is that this board is made up of a handful of engineers, scientists and technicians.  We tend to zero in on efficient ways of doing things, but forget about aesthetics and why we are going to the place.

But when we do arrive on Mars, we won't have any trees or animals and living conditions will be worse than prison.  We need to build an agricultural system, before we can enjoy the products of agriculture.  We need to build living space before we have living space.  I don't think we have to go without all luxury though.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-11-17 18:27:17)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#30 2022-11-17 19:07:31

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,781
Website

Re: Making Paper On Mars

kbd512 wrote:

We're working on trying to transform at least parts of Mars into a planet with trees.

That will take a very very long time. Within a human lifetime we could transform Mars into a world with CO2 atmosphere but enough pressure you don't need a pressure suit. You would still require an oxygen mask. Large plants require some oxygen in the atmosphere. Algae and cyanobacteria don't, but wheat requires as much oxygen as humans. So I have proposed building peat bogs once Mars has pressure and warm enough for liquid water at least part of the year. Peat bogs can convert rocky dirt into arable soil, releasing nutrients that plants require. Perhaps once large areas are covered by a peat bog, plastic sheet can partially contain the oxygen, leaky so it allows rain in but also leaks oxygen to the rest of Mars atmosphere. But concentrate oxygen over the bog enough to allow planting black spruce trees. They naturally grow in a peat bog. The bog must have weakened acid for trees, so starting with strong acid to break down rock and ground rock flour, but weaken the acid when ready to plant trees. Once trees start, we have our first forest. I suspect this will take centuries.

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#31 2022-11-17 20:23:02

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Making Paper On Mars

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Mars

https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/4873/pr … s-on-mars/

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airpl … osmrm.html

A nitrogen-rich atmosphere on ancient Mars consistent with isotopic evolution models

Some would think that we are looking at an earth level atmosphere At what depth on Mars would the atmosphere have equal pressure of that on Earth? which indicates a hole to a depth of 55km which is greater that the holes on hole that have been dug but a partial pressure would be very possible.

So does that mean we can have it open so long as the heat levels are controlled at the bottom?

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#32 2024-03-03 03:57:02

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Making Paper On Mars

Overdue Column: Nearly 600-year-old invention allows us to press on with reading even today
https://www.lajollalight.com/news/opini … even-today

Who is that?” asked my 8-year-old son, Charlie, in front of a large statue of Johannes Gutenberg in Strasbourg, France, while on our recent family vacation.

“He’s the reason books spread around the world,” I replied.

Gutenberg’s movable-type printing press, invented in 1440, led to the mass distribution of the Bible in the 1450s.

Then the recollection hit me — the Bible was among the first banned books. Some people initially weren’t all that happy about Gutenberg’s mass distribution project. It would put scribes out of business. It would make the interpretation of the Word of God by religious authority figures less crucial.

In short, it isn’t just the type of content contained in books that has come under fire. In the 15th century, it was the very concept of printed books.

Must newness always be met with resistance?

the human village on Mars will be a new thing

if you have a colony of robots you won't have all the posters and banners seen on Earth but with human colonists there might be desire for printed paper like materials

So easily done on Earth with all resources, poster and notice papers, Custom flyer printing quick and simple, from giant banners advertising gatherings or festivals to small Sticker placed on a box or vehicle.
Mars will not have the easy access like Earth and will it have movement of people like Earth sees changes of cultures and immigrants.
Some vintage signs and posters of theater, music and movie happenings even become collector items.

'Art' is copied, scanned, printed and put into frame making it look almost authentic, teen and student will have posters on the wall, some still use traditional maps in travel and exploration.

cultural and ethnic changes

English-Korean street signs in Dallas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBHUik-IPtk

Indian, Hinduism, Punjabi culture changes in London
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyRTwpTRrt4

In Canada the language of Thailand in certain areas, Indo Sanscrit Brahmic Thai script and a variant of the Khmer script, old Indo-Aryan languages from which its script comes, the languages of the Kra–Dai language family Thai restaurant and market the person in Canada sees and hears the language, from Kenya, Pakistan, Honduras, Mexico, Afghanistan, Russia, Somalia, Ukraine, India, Venezuela, in the 1960s, young American men fled to Canada in order to avoid the U.S. draft for the Vietnam War, the 'First Nations' Native American tribes have had little say on immigration policy, today in Canada some cross from the USA saying New York and other cities are over run or full and in Canada persons aged 14 to 54 years must pass a Canadian knowledge test and demonstrate a basic ability in either of English or French, Canada's official languages..

The language of the jihadi islamism types, arabic paper street signs in a claimed-to-be 'Secular' Paris France

Historically

Rome and the Pope seen as corrupt, technology traveled quickly across Europe and at time of great religious change, playing a role in the success of the Protestant Reformation, the original Lutheran and Calvin leaders. Luther survived being declared an outlaw due to the protection of Elector Frederick the Wise. Latin was the language of worship although few locals of each nation and kingdom understood it, some wanted religion translations of sacred texts into new tongues, some moved with new ideas a new intellectual movement known as Humanism emerged. New fears would arrive, the Black Death, sexually transmitted disease, paintings of demons, skulls and death, people spoke with superstitions but later unfortunately Kings fighting, bloodshed and religious wars,  rifts in England and Scotland lasting hundreds of years, many of Scandinavia ultimately adopted Lutheranism more suited to Nordic culture. Switzerland showed a level of forward thinking and wisdom and agreed that each village could freely chose between Protestantism and Catholicism, yet some other Kings and Nations had a lust for their religious wars. Greeks returned to Eastern Orthodox faiths, already suspicious of Rome over time they showed they thought of the Protestant faiths as alien outside influence from the North West, less support given to the 'Crypto-Protestant' movements and a return to Greek National Traditions, it may have marked the end of the peak ultimate rule of the Holy Roman Empire, allowing rulers to choose either Lutheranism or Catholicism .


For the moment it seems to bulk to transport such material and if there are not enough colonists there will be no demand for it. Later a small Mars colony might build its own pulp and print press.

Once stuff is grown in a Mars Biosphere then material will be ready to help make a printed medium, then recycling old paper facility.

How paper is made
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXQDsSctP1M

Gutenberg Printing Press
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLctAw4JZXE

Automatic Mills China
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaT9l4aXdEA

The Engineers and Programmers and Scientists Use 3-D Printers to Make Plastic Components, Metalic Structure and even Body Parts. It will probably be mass produced and 3-d printed, in ancient time any type of material was used for wirting from stone tablets to, clothing sheet linen, animal skins, metals, tree bark. Maybe Signs could be made Locally and Simple at first old method from Greece to China to Egypt, Methods and Materials of Making Ancient and Modern Papyrus Sheets.  Some cultures had a natural isolation or politically enforced isolation, when Buddhism was introduced in Japan along came Chinese writing and ideas and technology concepts from the East. The paper was used only for official documents but with Buddhism took hold growing over Shinto, mass print of a new religion spiritual idea and demand for paper rose dramatically. Religion always a big seller, more than Harry Potter, The Da Vinci Code conspiracy, The Catcher in the Rye, Hunger Games or The Great Gatsby the Christian Bible is the best selling book, colonists on Mars might form their own religion and demand 'texts' to be sang or spoken during a religious meeting.

If people on Mars have their own spiritual religion meeting paper itself might be part of what is sacred or holy, at the moment an Afrikaans church choir learns the notes and how to sing with a group but at the begining the West Germanic language speakers and Dutch explorer may have got a guy on piano to play hymn sheet music which would have been sung later by the South Africa choir, even today in temples and churches and gathering you see people sing from paper not i-phone or mobile cell phone or other computer devices, maybe it is less respectful or less spiritual to do so without texts.

What makes a bad printed text? maybe part of it is life experience, a kid forced to read a book they don't like in school? is there a difference between dark and bad and disturbing like horror?
https://bookriot.com/worst-books-of-all-time/
,
https://www.listchallenges.com/50-of-th … f-all-time
,
https://hastyreader.com/dark-disturbing-books/
,
https://bookriot.com/the-25-most-hated-books/
,
https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list … f-all-time

War of Religions today?

The Moscow Patriarchate is imploding, says Russia expert
https://international.la-croix.com/news … pert/19247
Observer says Patriarch Kirill risks leaving behind a greatly weakened and widely discredited Church

Afghan mohammedans a war against their own, terrorize their own people

Taliban publicly execute three people in five days as means of intimidation: 'their version of Sharia law'
https://www.yahoo.com/news/taliban-publ … 28840.html

not all texts might have a positive impact on civilization, Nietzsche’s morality may have inspired Fascism, there was Marxism, Hitler's Mein Kampf, Mao's Little Red Book, Thule Mason writing and Linda Book Popular With Nazi Occultists, the imperialism sexual depravity and torture in the Koran or Quran which some consider 'holy', the islamic book has a special type of evil that kills their own tradition and heritage, brainwash and oppress both Muslim and non-Muslims to the point that they can only convert to Islam and deny their pre-islamic heritage, the Munich Manualor Necromancer book Focused Entirely On Black Magic, anything by the Italian political philosopher and historian Niccolò Machiavelli is criticized as dark, anti-human or cynical and negative, the Occult Arabic Picatrix Contains a lot of weird Occult stuff which some voodoo witch type people still take serious.

and going back to 'song'

Orchestra & Choir - "Glorie Mielului" - Romanian Pentecostal Convention
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOJFkIJ_W-Y

Australian Boys Choir "Waltzing Matilda"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvKWZSiOU8Y

The Archdiocese School of Byzantine Music - GreekOrthodoxChurch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fF18UhxiW0

Yiddish Medley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TtEkOdoX5g

Armenian over 1 hour and a half long
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0iKa6EhulU

UNT A Cappella Choir: Deep River
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVMgiwR5igo
University of North Texas College Concerts

Religion: Desecration in India
https://time.com/archive/6783434/religi … -in-india/

paywall subscription article

‘Socialist’ and ‘secular’: What do these words mean in the Constitution, and how did they come to be part of the Preamble?
https://indianexpress.com/article/expla … n-8948030/


Canada
Freedom from Oppressive Sharia Law Jihadist Police

and people who creep into authority positions and then start pushing garbage teaching of the camel jacker pedophile Mahomet who founded islamism

However islamics are also instructed to hide and shapeshift a position and immigrate until they establish 'Sharia' perhaps even use ‘Socialist’ and 'secular' as a useful idiot that can tear down past traditions until the islamics can establish themselves in greater numbers

When a printed religion is a problem?

Appeal Court upholds Quebec law that bars teachers, police from wearing religious symbols
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal … -1.7128447

Recycle problems?

Biffa warns of continued low recycling rates for disposable takeaway cups
https://www.packagingnews.co.uk/news/wa … 01-03-2024

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-03-03 10:55:49)

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