21st Century Super-Abundance - Watching Bad Ideology Fail in Real-Time

Terraformer · 2022-09-26 02:06:23

Seawater does seem like it would be the better option for extracting CO2. Why try capturing it directly from the air when you can use 2/3 of the planet's surface to absorb it? I realised this once I'd gone to bed.

Electrolysis may have a high capital cost, but does the wear happen per hour of operation, or per hour? I.e. if you run it half the time, would it last twice as long (same number of operational hours)? This is something I wonder about solar panels as well -- the damage comes from them being used afaik, so they should only degrade in output with the time they have been generating electricity. I don't expect a solar panel in storage for ten years to only get 80% of its rate output...

tahanson43206 · 2022-09-26 07:39:35

For Terraformer re #26 and Inquiry about Assistance with Software testing?

Your question in #26 may well (and should) receive attention from one of our resident engineers.

However, I'd like to invite you to consider diving into the topic more deeply than might be routine. I get the impression your strengths and talent lie in the realm of writing, and possibly for younger folks. That talent could be helpful to the NewMars undertaking, if you were able?willing to stretch a bit.

What I have in mind is exploring the practicalities of extracting CO2 from various mixtures.

CO2 is mixed in with oxygen and nitrogen, and a variety of other gases (and floating particles). Leaves are evolved to extract CO2 molecules from the mixture, with little physical structures adapted for the purpose. Humans have developed techniques for separating gases that arrive in a mixture.

Some work is required to pull CO2 molecules out of the mix, as you have noted.

However, CO2 in sea water is a different processing problem. The material you are working with is much more dense, so your sorting mechanism needs to be able to pull CO2 out of the mixture while bypassing all the water and other floating objects in the mix.

If you were to undertake a (long term) mission to write something for young folks that would explain the processes and the differences, I would ** hope ** there would be a receptive audience.

Recently (as in yesterday) I ran across some creative writing for adults. The author was attempting to explain complex computer networks, and he hit upon the (to me clever) ploy of describing a community of highly evolved crows who (alledgedly) live in England.

The author set up the chapter by hinting that an eccentric English person had been studying crows for many years, and had become convinced they are far more intelligent than had previously been thought. In developing this theme, the author posited a variety of crow inspired mechanisms to accomplish the tasks that various elements of human designed computer networks do.

Having approached this with (some) prior knowledge of computer networks, I found the crow community antics both entertaining and thought provoking, as I'm sure the author intended.

It seems possible (to me at least) a creative writer with a flair for fantasy might succeed in passing some real-world engineering concepts along to young minds which might otherwise pass up the opportunity to learn the subject

PS ... kbd512 just gave a one hour tutorial on a set of languages that run on the Internet, and I am hoping to build upon that running start.

The work is being done for SpaceNut, but so far it appears SpaceNut is too busy to test the code segments as they appear.

Would you be at all interested in helping with testing?

The code will run on your computer (in any browser (hopefully)).

If you ** are ** interested, please stop in at the Java topic.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-09-26 14:48:50

For Terraformer re CO2 in sea water ..;..

Your question's been on my mind today, so i decided to ask Google what sea plants like kelp do with CO2 in sea water ...

Bingo!

Showing results for how does seaweed collect carbon
Search instead for how does sea weed collect carbon
Like plants on land, seaweed uses photosynthesis to absorb CO2 and grow biomass. Coastal marine systems can absorb carbon at rates up to 50 times greater than forests on land, according to Emily Pidgeon, senior director of strategic marine initiatives at Conservation International.Apr 6, 2021
The remarkable power of Australian kelp - BBC Futurehttps://www.bbc.com › future › article › 20210406-how-...

(th)

Calliban · 2022-09-29 15:14:56

What lies behind the Bank of England financial crisis?
https://surplusenergyeconomics.wordpres … /#comments

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-01-12 12:36:13

Biden rules out gas-stove ban after Republican backlash
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 … epublicans

Coal, gas lead 2022 commodities rally; recession clouds new year
https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodi … 022-12-30/

Ukraine: The food factor
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine … re-market/

Colbert mocks gas stove ban floated by Biden administration: 'F--- you, I'll see you in hell'
https://www.foxnews.com/media/colbert-m … u-see-hell

Energy & Environment — Biden appointee: No plans for gas stove ban
https://thehill.com/policy/energy-envir … stove-ban/
'A federal official says he’s not out to ban gas stoves'

Terraformer · 2023-01-13 07:24:33

Banning gas stoves is a silly idea. Focus on ventilation.

It's reminiscent of incandescent lightbulbs. They were banned, with CFLs being pushed, but would have withered away anyway a few years later without the ban due to LEDs being available and having a payback time measured in months at most. (In this analogy, gas stoves are the incandescent bulbs, electric stoves are the inferior CFLs, and induction stoves are the superior LEDs). The gas stove's days are numbered anyway now, since induction is coming down in price -- you can already buy a single induction tabletop stove for under £50. I'm tempted to make the switch once I have enough money to afford it...

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-13 07:39:25

For Terraformer re #31 .... I would ** not ** switch to induction heating, because electric heating is able to work well with glass (Pyrex) cookware, aluminum and a great variety of non-iron pots and pans.

It is possible I am just not familiar with the benefits of an induction stove top, so there is an opportunity here in kbd512's branch from your original Abundance topic, to explain/show the advantages of induction heating over electric.

I am curious to know how an induction process would bake a 25 pound turkey over multiple hours with the precision that an electric oven provides.

The resistive elements on a traditional electric oven may burn out, and mine have, but the glass embedded stove top appears to be as good as the day it was installed, 25+ years ago.

What maintenance might your suggested inductive heating system require over 25 years?

Not disputing your judgement, but instead asking for more information.

Regarding gas stoves ... they have the advantage that they work when power goes out. They have the disadvantage that they require ventilation for safety, and that means warm air goes out the vent, and the furnace has to replace it.

(th)

Terraformer · 2023-01-13 10:24:08

Wait. What. You cook your turkey on the stovetop? In a pyrex pan?

Anyway, iron is the superior choice for pots and pans . And conventional electric hobs are not particularly responsive when it comes to changing the temperature. But I haven't had the chance to try induction yet, so I only know what others have told me.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-13 10:38:51

For Terraformer re #33

Unless kbd512 intervenes, this topic is on it's way to a comparison of cookware as well as various kinds of stoves and food heating methods.

The varieties of cookware that I've seen include:

iron ... heavy - sturdy - heavy - clumsy - heavy - need oiling care

aluminum - sturdy - dishwasher safe -

Stainless steel - sturdy - light weight - graceful - dish washer safe

Stainless/copper meld - sturdy - medium weight - dish washer safe

plastic - microwave suitable - dishwasher safe

glass - on the heavy side - dish washer safe

ceramic - oven or microwave safe - dish washer safe

No doubt there are other categories NewMars members can add ...

(th)

Terraformer · 2023-01-13 11:58:37

No it's not. I'm just finding it odd that you cook turkey on the hob, rather than in an oven like most people do. I was talking about induction stoves.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-13 12:42:39

For Terraformer re misunderstanding ....

Here is the original text:

I am curious to know how an induction process would bake a 25 pound turkey over multiple hours with the precision that an electric oven provides.

(th)

Terraformer · 2023-01-13 12:47:11

Yes, in response to me talking about induction stoves. Hobs. Things you use frying pans and pots on.

For ovens, you use forced convection.

kbd512 · 2023-01-13 18:50:24

Cast Iron is still the best kind of cookware. Stainless steel is still the best kind of silverware. Your home still needs proper ventilation regardless of what kind of stove and water heater you use. Even our electric oven requires a vent for exhaust / cooling, as does our electric clothes dryer. Electricity doesn't change appliance or habitation requirements, although maybe an electric range top is a different matter. Our electric range top in the old house still required an under-cabinet (it was a center island) fan and ventilation shaft.

The electric heating elements seldom, if ever, "burn out". The electrical connection points are what become cracked from thermal cycling, and then they fail after many cycles (the electrical connection breaks at the attachment point) between the heating element and the rest of the circuit. Nobody wants to repair them, so they go out and buy a new one. The electric heating part is utterly reliable, just like gas is.

If you ever run a portable electric generator to generate electricity when (not "if") the power goes out, then much of the energy savings of an induction vs gas stove go right out that generator's tailpipe if it has to run for a couple of days per year.

The theory about electric requiring less energy than gas is good, but as always, actual practice is often very different from the theory.

US EIA says the average American citizen spends approximately $34 per year using gas to cook with, along with 886kWh of electricity per month. Whatever minor savings you see from an electric range top is totally drowned out by your electricity consumption and the cost of purchasing new appliances.

The average British subject uses 304kWh of electricity per month, and 1,000kWh of gas per month.

1kWh = 3,412Btu

US Natural Gas is priced in terms of million Btus (MMBtu), so we're presently paying $3.75 per 1MMBtu. $34 represents 9,066,667Btu.

1MMBtu = 293,071Wh or 293.071kWh

$1 USD = 266,667Btu
$1 USD = 78,156Wh of energy

We pay about $0.15 USD per kWh of electricity consumed. That's not the highest or lowest rate available in America, but it's pretty low compared to most other major cities.

$0.01USD = 782Wh of energy
$1 USD therefore buys about 6,667Wh of electricity

Induction heaters are 3X more efficient than gas? Okay, whatever. I'll concede the point for sake of argument. I can still buy 8.5X more gas for every dollar spent on energy. Therefore, I will never save a penny by buying a new electric / induction heating range top, which is why I won't do it. Now you know why people here in America use so much natural gas. It's a LOT cheaper to use gas than electricity.

Induction heating proves to be a highly efficient method for industrial heating applications. A 1998 study conducted by Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory for the Department or Energy, found induction cooktops to transfer 84% of the power to the load vs. only 71% for electric coils and 40% for gas.

I assume "electric coils" means resistance heating. How is 84% efficiency 3X better than natural gas? We may never know. That sounds like marketing drivel to me. That's how marketers sell stuff to the ignorant, though. Let's assert for sake of argument that induction heating is 100% efficient. It's still only 60% more efficient than gas, NEVER 3X more efficient. On top of that, Lawrence Berkeley is a lot more credible than a major appliance manufacturer's marketing drivel. US DoE uses the same numbers.

If my home came equipped with an induction heating range top and oven, would I ever replace it with natural gas? Well, no. Again, consuming more stuff, pointlessly, is just dumb (to me). The home has a functional cook top for my wife to make dinner, and that's what matters. She did a fine job with the electrical resistance range top in the last home, as well as the gas cooktop in this home. The overriding point is that you have a way to cook dinner. Which kind you own is irrelevant.

Similarly, I was advised not to get an electric central heating unit by our AC technician to replace the gas units. We have 1 electric unit for the third floor. He said they'll sell new units to me if I absolutely have to have electric, but he didn't think it was worth the asking price. I asked him if the electric heaters worked and he said the ones they sell work just fine, but they're not cheap. The gas units I own seem to do the job well, so why would I go out and spend more money one something I scarcely use? Again, if the home came with an electric unit, then that's the way it's going to stay while I own it. Sometimes things don't need to change, "just because".

Now...

If we synthesized our own fuel from sunlight and CO2, then we couldn't possibly run out until the Sun goes supernova. When that happens, where your power comes from is a "moo point", because the Earth will be burnt to a cinder.

Terraformer · 2023-01-14 04:26:46

In Britain, domestic gas is about 4x cheaper than domestic electricity (but the "market" is highly regulated, so that's by government design). It makes air source heat pumps pointless, since they're more expensive than gas.

In terms of gas consumption, switching to induction would mean about the same amount of gas is consumed, it would just be in gas turbines to provide the electricity rather than in homes. Overall system efficiency is about the same. Perhaps there's a gas to be made though for not having highly pressurised gas running through our homes...

SpaceNut · 2023-01-14 10:55:44

Try a pot or pan in a microwave, Pyrex can or other forms of glass products or you can design a product that has a glass insert for the metal pan and make a combo product adaptable for any energy source use.

How the economy of the US states are doing
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets … 3#image=33

the slides show Texas and NH on the not doing as well.

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#26 2022-09-26 02:06:23

Re: 21st Century Super-Abundance - Watching Bad Ideology Fail in Real-Time

#27 2022-09-26 07:39:35

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#32 2023-01-13 07:39:25

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#35 2023-01-13 11:58:37

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