Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

Earthfirst · 2004-03-01 11:45:28

Donpanic you are wrong!!! I know for a fact that Arizona is an indian name. It means land of many springs, or small springs. Fyi Donpanic I so happen to know almost all of the place names of geological sites in the southwest. It is true that some are spanish in orgin, but is also true that alot are anglo saxion in orgin too. For example the highest piont in Arizona is in the san fransico mts, but the name of the peak is Humphers, fremount, and badly peak in the white mts. Also the names of the rivers verde, gila, san pedro, santa maria, Agua fira, san simon. English ones Salt, Bill Williams, Black, white, blue, Big Sandy, and virgin rivers. Cities Phoenix, flagstaff, glendale, Scottsdale, Tempe, Chandler, Perioa, Bull head city, Williams, and on and on. Sanpish Tucson, Casa grande, rio verde, san carlos, and gila bend.
I am well aware more so than you about the history of the southwest. Although we won must of the southwest in the mexican war, we conbusated mexico for the lost with money, also the gadson purchase we bought southern arizona adding tucson, mainly for a southern pacific route. Alls fair in war and america won the southwest from mexico, even though we did not have too, we paid for what we won with money, even buying some more land.
Second point Mexico vast northern territory was sparsly populated. The only city in Arizona was tucson, of only a few hunderd, santa fe in new mexico was small too, nothing in utah or neveda, and only a few mission in california. The people their recived little help from the government in mexico city, with indian raids. They were on there own must of the time, even before the war started, the bear flag republic, and the repulic of texas got started with revultions. Weakly defined, the people not realy caring what mexico city thought.
Mexico was easy picking for the us.
My thrid point is why does a few thousand of people who did not realy see them selfs as mexicans warrent millions apone millions of illegal alien to flood in ruin state bugets, destory the dominet anglo culter. It does not in my veiw! I could see mabe a few thousand imigrating legal, but not millions legal and illegal. In my view mexico is using the us as an escape valve for it over population, bad econmy, and corrpe society and government. Would it not be better if they stayed in their own country reform their corret gov, build jobs, education, and population contrel with brith control?
I can hanndle a few spanish place names, even a few thousand legal immigrant with skills, education, and disease free. But I can't stand for millions apon millions of illegal aleins sneek in, desotorying bugets, serices, anglo culter, turning it into an other corrope form of mexico. Destorying what the anglos have built! I also can read spanish just fine, your lack of understanding comes from the fact that you are a pc liberal afraid to speak against minorits. You have your head in the sand when it comes to issues in the southwest. You must live in the northeast or so hloe in their New York or boston.
People who do not belive in borders, langues and cluter. Are doomed to loose their indenty and country to other nations.
They are the handecap smart ass, they should learn english like all the other immigrants did. They from there own little meixicos, then smart people at the city, or state, or federal put everything they need in spanish, on the bus, signs for adversting, spanish tv networks, radio, spanish taght in us schools. They dont have to learn english they can get along just fine without it. Then I have lrean a whole new langues because they are lazzy! This is not a bilango country, what are we cannda? That is my answer to you mistry know it all while I know more than you!

Cobra Commander · 2004-03-01 16:25:22

Earthfirst. It is rants such as that which have made this issue a no-go point in most political discourse. Heaping scorn on Mexicans does no one any good.

Besides, Spanish/Mexican culture is Western. The same concepts are present in its roots, though I suppose historically the execution hasn't been stellar. We have far bigger problems than a perceived attempt by Latinos to "take back their land." While illegal immigration from Mexico is harmful in many respects, it is just as much the fault of misguided "anglo" policies as anything else.

But as for the language issue, this is significant. Common language and culture are the twin pillars of a coherent nation. If either is lost, so will the state follow.

Before, if you think about the old nobility in Europe, Money was even not an issue. That is what make the middle age so attractive, you could be respected for your courage, chivalry and generosity much more than for you richness. Actually, the "rich bourgeois" were maybe feared for their power and richness, but in no case considered as moral icons. Religion and Chivalry were the symbol of purity and good moral, not the bourgeois.

Somehow I think the "Age of Kings" looks rosier in retrospect.

It has not always been like that. During the "enlightment" period that Cindy describes so well, money was respected but not worshiped. Human values were most important I believe.

The thing about the Enlightenment that is rarely mentioned is how dependent it was the social order of the time. You have all these people running around talking about liberty and rule of the people while they themselves are the subjects of Kings, with varying levels of buffer. it's only after the feudal lords have been finally shaken off and we have to put all those noble ideals into practice that we start to long for the simplicity of a ruler in whom we could place absolute authority, being that he rules by divine right after all. ???
I suspect human greed and treachery is one of the few constants in the universe. Time and romanticism merely smooth the edges.

Not that I have anything against the Enlightenment, its fruits are one of the things I'm gravely concerned about losing.

From time to times, you can still meet some of these living fossils : they all show complete disdain for money and for dangerous situations. And of course, they ignore the stock market, unbelievable !

I can explain this one, it comes from being broke and frustrated. Miserable, but somehow liberating... Ah well, back to polishing the armor...

Earthfirst · 2004-03-01 18:00:49

Thats what I just told you, spanish and mexican culture are part of the west, I dont have a problem with that. The problem I have is that too many of them are immigrating here.
You are right it is the politions faults, in mexico corrept government does not help its people. Using the us as an esacpe valve. In the us polition ignore the problem or encrouge than for votes, or are afriad that they will lose votes if they do some thing about it. Mean while both country suffer, mexico losses smart people, suffer under a corrept gov. The us cant handle the flood of people and state bugets are skyrocketing, because of the crime and cost of social serives. Natives like my self get mad, hate an other wise good people that would be welcome if there was not so many of them. All around things are bad and nothing is done to improve the situwation.
It like that in europe I think, liberal gov and media do nothing, natives get mad, crime and taxes go up, and the immigrats just keep coming. I thought the gov was supost to be looking out for its own people not foriners?

DonPanic · 2004-03-01 19:23:01

LO

Common language and culture are the twin pillars of a coherent nation

? Didn't Secession war happened in a common language and culture country ? Doesn't Switzerland strongly survive with 3 languages, german, french and italian ?
Didn't Tchecoslovaquia split although sharing the same language ?
Therefore I wonder what unite people toghether.

your lack of understanding comes from the fact that you are a pc liberal afraid to speak against minorits

Nope ! I don't care of being politically correct or not, for instance, I think that people who pray standing up are more ready for democracy than people who pray kneeling down, and that people who pray prostrate are bound for dictatorship, as God likes those who come freely to him, not thoses who humiliate themselves. That is not PC.
I just think that Big Money is interested in having the cheapest labour, the biggest market, the highest profit rates, and Big Money corrupts law makers and politicians in Washington as well as in Europe, sending factories abroad, and now qualified jobs, in China or Indonesia or any else poor wages countries.
And Big money is mainly WASP

Cobra Commander · 2004-03-01 20:06:30

? Didn't Secession war happened in a common language and culture country ? Doesn't Switzerland strongly survive with 3 languages, german, french and italian ?
Didn't Tchecoslovaquia split although sharing the same language ?
Therefore I wonder what unite people toghether.

A common language doesn't guarantee that a nation will remain united, but its lack leads to fragmentation, first of the culture and then of the state. The Swiss have always been a little odd, Europe's great exception in many ways.

Nope ! I don't care of being politically correct or not, I just think that Big Money is interested in having the cheapest labour, the biggest market, the highest profit rates, and Big Money corrupts law makers in Washington as well as in Europe, sending factories abroad, and now qualified jobs, in China or Indonesia. And Big money is mainly WASP.

Can't argue with that. But while outsourcing of labor is a transient practice, the unchecked "importation" of inassimilable laborers has the potential to overwhelm and destroy the host nation. Still worse is the influx of non-working illegals who feed off the social safety nets or prey directly on the natives through criminal acts. A number of things could be done to relieve some of the problems, among them ending the practice of granting citizenship simply for being born within the borders and printing government forms, particualrly of the welfare variety, solely in the language of the host country.

Just here in Michigan you can get welfare applications in English, Spanish, Arabic, Vietnamese, Togolog and some other tongue I've never heard spoken by a living soul. More are probably available on request, you can probably apply for food stamps in Klingon if you were so inclined. Whatever your view of government funded social programs, this can't be a good long-term practice.

There is little that can be done about the exporting of labor to cheaper nations, at least within the context of a free market, but expensive domestic labor can just as well be replaced through automation as migrant workers. Europe is ahead of the US in this regard, using greater automation in agriculture than is common in the US. Here, a few Mexicans are cheaper than new machinery. Nothing against Mexican field hands, they're very hard-working people happy to have the job, but the US economy's dependence on migrant workers is inflated.

But again, there are greater concerns than immigration from Mexico. This an American issue. As we've discussed here, there is a greater problem that appears common to most of the Western industrialized nations.

If our governments don't wake up and start dealing with these issues real fast, it could get extremely unpleasant.

DonPanic · 2004-03-02 04:45:52

LO

There is little that can be done about the exporting of labor to cheaper nations, at least within the context of a free market,

Your sentence carries its own answer, as In Europe, as long as I know, welfare state has been built behind national taxes barreers, and with national thinking governments and industry leadership.
Now in Europe, national leaders claim they are irresponsible for main society problems, saying the answer is in Bruxelles where a "Commission" rules the Empire without having been elected by any Europe's citizen.
That leads to aberrations like bureaucrats which never saw a cherry tree deciding that a cherry fruit cannot be sold if its diameter is under 0.944882 Inches !
Vertical or horizontal diameter ?

Gennaro · 2004-03-07 04:59:45

Some long overdue replies and comments:

Don?t Panic:

Gennaro, I understand your point of view, as for a small population country, shock of a massive immigration wave is tough to deal with. Non native criminality rises high because they do not belong to the richest classes.

I?m glad you share my concerns, but I?m afraid this ?poverty? explanation is simply dead wrong. Indigenous population in Sweden was pretty poor up till the 1930?s, but nobody behaved the aforementioned way. You could keep your door unlocked in the centre of cities. Poverty is no excuse for criminal behaviour. Besides, the wellfare immigrants aren?t exactly ?poor? by any material standards.
What?s really the reason, if something happens here or they bring it along, I wouldn?t know and frankly I don?t even care. It?s unacceptible, that?s all there?s to it.

Byron:

So what gives? Are people not urging the national government to *do* something about it? Or are people just too ignorant to realize what's happening with all of these people coming in, etc.?

This is actually a somewhat complicated question. Part of the answer can be seen in Rxke?s postings. The parties that traditionally brought up immigration issues in the past (and still do) were generally crazy, ultra-nationalist fringe groups, which tends to make it very hard for otherwise sane liberals to both face reality and refrain from PC-labeling (I know, it was for me). As for your alternatives, it?s both. People are not urging the government so much to do anything partly because the establishment/media is very skilled in truth-filtering techniques, you really have to put up an effort to find out the truth, at the same time as the penalties for making an official political stand can be frightening.
A small example: shortly before the general elections two years ago a team of reporters went around asking parlamentarians what their views were on immigration, ?hostility towards strangers? (a political idiocy phrase regularly used by the establishment) and the like. When the camera was rolling everyone of them, regardless of left/right affilation replied in accordance with the pre-described and accepted opinions on such matters, but when they thought the camera was shut off however (the reporter team used a hidden camera), their honest, personal views and mindset was very different indeed! As a result several of the MP?s were kicked out of their parties and had their careers shattered on the grounds of unintentional ?racism?.
Basically, it?s a group-think phenomenon.

Cindy:

Instead of overwhelming this side of the globe, they need to work WITHIN their own nations to help bring them up -- with improvements and etc.

Absolutely agree with this standpoint. In fact I?d be willling to lend a hand if it could be received without rancour. Of course the receiving end must also not be a corrupt cleptocracy, but actually willing to improve its lot. The less tension and deprivation we can achieve the richer everyone will be and the faster we?ll get into the solar system. Flooding and thus destroying the west by globalist multicultural entropy on the other hand simply won?t be beneficial to anyone.

Rxke, appreciate your balancing input regarding the subject. Maybe I should point out two things to make myself absolutely clear about my position. I?m naturally aware that most third world immigrants are generally decent people simply trying to improve their standard of living, having every right trying to do so. The thing on the other hand is that such immigration cannot forcibly be subject to humanitarian concerns and only Dutch people should have the right to decide who?d they let into the country, because only they have Dutch citizenship and there cannot be any right over-riding the social contract. The other thing is that there is a lot of suffering and relative unhappiness in the world, but if say Holland or Sweden took it on themselves to solve everyone?s problems like some global life-boat, that sailing raft would soon sink from the sheer numbers deciding to board it and there would be nothing left for anyone. The bitter truth is that no matter how well-intended one might imagine oneself as being, a LINE has to be drawn somewhere.

Just a quick comment. You write:

Still, I want Islamic, Hindu, ... people on Mars. It would be crazy not to accept them. 99% of those people are just like us, trying to do the right thing.

Who?s said Islamic people can't go to Mars? Any Muslim state can set up a space program and pursue a manned Mars landing, can they not? Who?s to stop them?

Cobra Commander · 2004-03-07 09:42:59

What?s really the reason, if something happens here or they bring it along, I wouldn?t know and frankly I don?t even care. It?s unacceptible, that?s all there?s to it.

Exactly, there comes a time when analyzing the motives of criminals is useless and you just need to take 'em out.

Just a quick comment. You write:
Quote
Still, I want Islamic, Hindu, ... people on Mars. It would be crazy not to accept them. 99% of those people are just like us, trying to do the right thing.

Who?s said Islamic people can't go to Mars? Any Muslim state can set up a space program and pursue a manned Mars landing, can they not? Who?s to stop them?

Yes, it does appear there is a PC assumption that we must have "diversity" in future space missions, coupled with an assumption that it is white Western nations that need to bring others along. Seems a bit, oh, racist doesn't it? "Those brown savages can't go to Mars, we need to take them with us, silly primitves" sort of attitude.

That leads to aberrations like bureaucrats which never saw a cherry tree deciding that a cherry fruit cannot be sold if its diameter is under 0.944882 Inches !
Vertical or horizontal diameter ?

That brings to mind this quote:

"The ordinary man would greatly resent such treatment of the facts of his daily industry and life. If someone strolled into an engineering shop and, after five minutes' cursory examination of an intricate process which the engineer had studied all his life, proceeded to tell him how to do it, the engineer would quickly tell the intruder he was a presumptuous ass. Yet these are the methods which our present electoral system applies to that most intricate and technical of processes, the government of a civilised State"

Oswald Mosley, British Fascist. Arguments against controlling bureaucracy can come from unexpected places.

By the same token, not everyone that is concerned about immigration is a raving Nazi, despite the official line of the day.

Rxke · 2004-03-07 09:59:07

I was only trying to say a 'pure' Western Mars would be a bit... Unnatural. And no, i'm not saying NASA et all should be 'forced' to take up a certain percentage of ethnic minorities that's just PC propaganda AND paternalising, i'm quite confident the Chinese, Indians, South Americans, etc will eventually be able to do it themselves, they're working hard towards that goal...

BTW, here in Belgium they just passed a law that gives immigrants (so-non naturalised foreigners) the right to vote in the regional votes.... Almost *everybody* (people on the street) is against it, but it passed anyway, PC and all that, everybody in gov. wants to sound as non-racist as possible, sigh. Great too is the fact that now the overpayed foreign Eurocrats living in Brussels will have voting rights, too, scary thought.
Most crazy country in the world, for sure...

RobS · 2004-03-08 00:09:13

Oh, I don't know. I like Belgium. My Iranian wife has a great aunt (Belgian) and a great uncle (Iranian, naturalized Belgian) who live in Brussels across the street from the Free University. So immigrants can do well and can assimilate (his French ain't great, but it's okay). Other Iranian friends of mine in Belgium speak excellent French AND Flemish.

Not to mention my Iranian cousins by marriage in France, Germany, Italy, the U.K., and Spain. The kids of the French ones don't even speak Persian and are as French as anyone else. But then, they aren't Muslim, they're Baha'i, so assimilation's easier.

-- RobS

Rxke · 2004-03-08 01:26:09

Hey, don't get me wrong, Belgium is still a great place to live. The rest of the world envies our 05.00 closing-times for bars, for instance
BTW your family doesn't happen to have a restaurant there? Had an Iranian friend, used to eat there, somewhere in the neighbourhood.
(Another 'foreign friend, i hear people think, it's just that i used to live in poor neighbourhoods, with lots of (former) immigrants and all that, i'm not a "cuddle a foreigner" type of guy, i despise those types, actually. They've never been in contact with the 'real situation' it's salon-leftism of the worst kind... That's why -in a way- i have more respect for opinions like Earthfirst, who experiences these 'issues' first-hand, than some people that feel morally superior, while living very comfy in a rich neighbourhood... (Sigh, no, i am NOT referring to any of you, just talking from personal experience)

Cobra Commander · 2004-03-29 15:47:42

http://www.detnews.com/2004/nation/0403 … 105344.htm

The backlash begins...

Excerpt:
"Virtually every European government is cracking down, but none as fiercely as the Dutch.

Last month, its Parliament adopted a onetime measure to deport 26,000 rejected asylum seekers, and the government is preparing to open “expulsion centers” this spring where entire families will be detained pending deportation."

Hmm, based on the full article it looks like they see a problem but might botch implementing a solution.

"No one, it seems, is immune — not even Sarah Chmoun, 79, and her husband, Chabo, 84, a Christian couple who are handicapped and suffering dementia and are cared for by their Dutch son and five grandchildren.

Both are threatened with deportation back to Syria, their home country.

“If I’m such a nuisance to the Dutch government, they should just kill me here,” Sarah Chmoun said. “I don’t need to be sent all the way back to Syria to die on the streets.”

???

Rxke · 2004-04-13 05:23:08

when i read this, i thought about this topic (the gang-rapers)

[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3622021.stm]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3622021.stm

"The case shocked conservative Muslim society, where violent crimes against women are almost unheard of, a BBC correspondent reports. "

They're talking about the Gaza strip!

Palomar · 2004-04-13 06:30:37

"The case shocked conservative Muslim society, where violent crimes against women are almost unheard of, a BBC correspondent reports. "

*According to what I've read elsewhere (which could be wrong, and I'll stand corrected), it's no big surprise that violent crimes against women are "almost unheard of" in conservative Muslim societies. A woman raped in such a society is required to have 4 or 5 male witnesses to the assault; otherwise, she's "guilty" of fornication or adultery and can be punished (perhaps even killed by male relatives in an "honor killing").

Need I point out that most rapists DON'T rape women where witnesses may easily be accessible? Most criminals (of whatever sort) take some sort of precaution to NOT be found out, especially when perpetrating the criminal act.

If I were a woman living in such a society, raped in a remote location or outside of screaming distance of anyone, do you think I'd report it? When I could be "honor killed" next because 4 or 5 males didn't "witness" my rape?

The cards sure are stacked against the victim.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-13 16:34:12

Excellent point, Cindy.

Hell, we can end all crime if we change the definitions enough!

I don't trust members of "conservative Muslim society" on anything involving human rights, particularly those of women. Call me a bigot if you will, but it's really just being objective and rational.

Rxke · 2004-04-13 18:07:30

You're *not* talking about conservative Muslims, but extremist Muslims...

There were no witnessess to the rape, yet people gathered outide the court demanding the death of the rapists...

You're talking about the extrme Shariat communities, like Taliban and some African (parts of) countries...

Have you ever sat down and talked to a Muslim? Have you ever been in a Mosque and attended one of their 'masses' ?
(you an, just ask) These people's religion have *a lot * in common with Chrisitianity, they even acknowledge Christ as one of their prophets...

BTW From what I've read on several places the Moon is made of cheese. (Not to be insultive, Ciny, not at all, I'm just depressed for the moment, so very curt... but... Most, and that is 99,99% of all Muslims are peace-loving people. It's the 0;01 percent tat gets all the press...)

And equality of gender in the West is, at best, a front, women are still being discriminated here... Maybe more subtly, or shall I say more deviously?
Do we have women in our chuches? Female American presidents?

(nevermind)

Palomar · 2004-04-13 18:19:21

Rik: "You're talking about the extrme Shariat communities, like Taliban and some African (parts of) countries..."

*Fine.

Rik: "Have you ever sat down and talked to a Muslim?"

*Yes, as a matter of fact I have. More than one.

Rik: "Have you ever been in a Mosque and attended one of their 'masses' ?"

*No, I'm not interested in their religion. Come to think of it, I've never attended a Catholic mass either.

Rik: "(you an, just ask) These people's religion have *a lot * in common with Chrisitianity, they even acknowledge Christ as one of their prophets...

BTW From what I've read on several places the Moon is made of cheese. (Not to be insultive, Ciny, not at all, I'm just depressed for the moment, so very curt... but... Most, and that is 99,99% of all Muslims are peace-loving people. It's the 0;01 percent tat gets all the press...)"

*That's fine, and I can acknowledge that. I didn't intend to imply they were all wild-eyed machete-waving goons.

Rik: "And equality of gender in the West is, at best, a front, women are still being discriminated here... Maybe more subtly, or shall I say more deviously?
Do we have women in our chuches? Female American presidents?

(nevermind)"

*There are female clerics in the Presbyterian and some other Christian denominations here in the U.S. Is there still discrimination against women in the U.S./West? Sure. The foremost example is inequality of pay. But you know, Rik, I can vote here. And drive a car (without my husband even being in it). And have a separate bank account. And I can run for President if I wanted to. And I can walk outside in a string bikini if the mood hits me. I'm not required to cover my face or my head (not all Muslim women are either, I know, but many are) with a scarf or head dress. If I wanted to, I could divorce my spouse (in Egypt at least, women are just -now- getting that right, begrudgingly. In Bahrain women are not allowed to seek divorce. Only their husbands are allowed that right, and aren't even required to give them a reason for suddenly BEING divorced).

I understand where you're coming from and the points you are trying to make. I'm afraid you think some folks here are being unnecessarily harsh on Muslims (I did comment in my previous post that I'm willing to stand corrected if necessary).

However, based on what I have read and heard, etc., women in the West -do- generally have it better than in Muslim societies. *I've heard Muslim women themselves say so.*

Also, just because the West isn't perfect doesn't mean other societies should be exempt from scrutiny and even criticism.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-13 18:44:20

Have you ever sat down and talked to a Muslim? Have you ever been in a Mosque and attended one of their 'masses' ?

Yes on one, quite frequently in fact, and no on two.

Based on conversations with numerous Muslim acquaintences, it has become clear to me that while the vast majority are decent people who abhor the activities that generally get Muslims press, women are viewed as unequal, fundamentally. As far as I have seen, one cannot be a "conservative" Muslim and not hold this view, It's like a Libertarian favoring state-run healthcare, the one conflicts the other.

I know a number of "buffet Muslims," the sort who much like most self-professed Christians pick and choose the parts of the religion they want to adhere to.

But my experience with the more conservative variety, and I don't mean bomb-throwing, plane-hijacking fundamentalist loonies but just overall good people who take their religion seriously and try to live by its doctrine, they hold beliefs that I find fundamentally wrong. As far as I'm concerned they can practice whatever religion they choose, but when it brings harm to others, I draw the line.

A knew a guy awhile back who reguarly wore a t-shirt with a verse from the Koran on it (in English, which it's my understanding you're really not supposed to do) which said something to the effect of "men are the maintainers and protectors of women." Sounded okay.

But then further conversation gives the distinct impression that it's meant in the same sense that men are the maintainers and protectors of cars, not really a positive message, at least to my Western mode of thinking.

Sure, the majority of Muslims are good people. But there are points within Islam that should be of concern. Islam does not teach the murder of innocent people with terrorist acts, but it isn't exactly a "religion of peace" either.

jadeheart · 2004-04-15 15:04:01

First time in 2 mo. I've been able to sit and read an entire thread... I've been surprised at how level-headed (for the most part) this discussion is. Another sign of an above-average forum.

In relation to some of the earlier posts about Islamic culture vs. Judeo-Christian, has anyone here read Kim Stanley Robinson's "The Years of Rice and Salt"? As an armchair historian I found it an interesting & entertaining read. It deals with a lot of the culture comparison issues earlier in this thread using the alternate-history mechanism.

Also: Lately the Sierra Club has been in turmoil due to its upcoming board elections being 'held hostage' by 'anti-immigration interests.' The implication is that there is a right-wing conspiracy to undermine the Club's ideals (environmental preservation/conservation) by getting conservative, anti-immigration candidates elected. Since most of the Club's membership base is somewhat ideologically liberal, they are frantically sending out notices about the upcoming election, urging people to vote and fend off the 'takeover' attempt. The ironic thing is that most environmentalists, while tending to be lefties, realize that unchecked growth (as exemplified by, say, unchecked immigration) is bad for the environment, but have a hard time reconciling this notion with the racist stigma attached to most anti-immigration types. (Not to mention the fact that conservative board members, once elected, may undermine the overall mission of the Club.) I tend to see the current turmoil at the Sierra Club as a microcosmic manifestation of the larger immigration issue. Serious issue, needs to be addressed, but we need to make sure we address it for the right reasons (not racism).

While I agree that Western Civ as originally evolved is a great thing, I think it has been decaying non-trivially from the inside for some time now. Threats to this culture from without put aside, I sometimes wonder if it is really worth preserving here on Earth, much less seeding space with. We have drifted so far from the original tenets of exploration, reasoned inquiry and self-actualization toward crass materialism, gluttony and celebrity-worship. Cultures/societies evolve just like organisms. Unworthy ones (worthy in the sense of being able to survive in their ambient environment) will die out &/or be supplanted/destroyed by more robust ones. History shows this. If our civilization & cultural values are strong they will survive via immigrants voluntarily adopting them. If not they will give way to more robust culture imported by immigrants.

I'm not a PC apologist, but at least some of the misery in the undeveloped world stems from our plundering their resources to maintain our standard of living. We should keep this in mind when formulating our immigration policies. I think that stopping immigration, if possible, is not going to be the panacea that some seem to think. Yes, there are serious problems related to immigration that will surely sink Gennaro's "ship" if not dealt with in a realistic, objective manner... People's lives are going to have to be ruined & some are going to die before things get any better. But I view the immigration issue as a facet of the broader problem of overpopulation, which ultimately will affect us all. A shortage of resources is going to trump the cultural issue if it hasn't already. If we don't deal with this soon, at the global level, Nature will handle it for us in a very noncompassionate and painful manner.

Earthfirst · 2004-04-16 09:44:15

I am not rich and I dont like those rich people that bluid their homes on the mountians. I have freinds that are from other countrys too. I veiw imigration like having guest at your home
1 a party 2 is a trouble and three a mess because they eat all your food, and back up the toylet.
Its like this what if 30 million americans just walk across the border into mexico, got jobs as landsacpers, fastfood, farm jobs, and lots of others Americans are smart. Then demand that signs be posted in englesh too, demand free health care, food stamps, and social secarity. Then drive around with no insurance, hitrun stuff. Also sue the government for not given use serves in englesh. Demand are kids be taught in engles in schools instead of spanish. Also raise the crime rate, steel cars, rape, Home invasins where we force are ways into peoples home when they are there kill them or rape and steel every thing. I dont think that mexicans would like, also sue for amisty because we held jobs there yet pay no taxes for the serves we use. But there is no ACLU in mexico yet.
I call it reverse immigration, may be we could turn mexico into a great place like we did to texas and all the othe southwestern states.

Palomar · 2004-10-19 21:10:35

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u … ism_dc]NOT because its France...

*I thought I'd post this article here. We've previously discussed U.S./Israel relations in a thread devoted to it, wherein I asked (IIRC) why are the Jews so hated? I can think of a different group of people who could more easily incur my enmity...IF I were a collectivist (I'm not; there are good and bad people in every group, society and nation).

Again, I didn't post this on the basis of it being in France; I'm simply stymied by this. What gives? ???

Is anti-Semitism on the rise throughout Europe?

--Cindy

Grypd · 2004-10-20 16:00:48

Recently the Israeli parliament stated the the most anti jewish state in Europe was France? It even meant that there was a call for all Jews in France to go to Israel for there safety.

I frankly dont know what is happening over the other side of the Channel. France has started to be very anti anything except what is classed as french culture, an example is banning the wearing of headscarfs by muslim girls in french schools. I can understand that they wish to keep there schools secular and that the wearing of headscarfs is a muslim tradition, but it is extreme.

It could be that with the waves and waves of immigration and the problems with them having to go through France to there destinations, that France is becoming a bit more right wing. Certainly there has been a definite rise in the fortunes of Frances far right parties and it will be election year soon.
But this is not only the case in France both Germany and Belgium have the same symptoms. To a lesser degree so does Britain.

In answer to your question I dont think it is specific Anti semitism but a general trend of anti ethnic groups in Europe.

Algol · 2004-10-21 05:50:13

The headscrarf thing in france was really centered around tye wearing of hijabs (burkas). Some children (IIRC) were coming to school wearing the full head-to-toe face-covering traditional islamic dress. Schools were concerend that children werent wearing uniform (suprisingly important in terms of insurance apparently), but more importantly they were declaring themselves more 'islamic' than their headscarf wearing brethren.

The schools found it hard to legislate against the hijabs - there were various appeals based on human rights/freedom of expression/discrimination which only served to highlight the issue and put more presure on other islamic families to adopt the dress-code - so they reinforced the traditional secular rules, hence the ban on ostensibly religious clothing in schools.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-10-21 08:03:21

Anti-semitism has always been a mystery to me; I don't know what it is about the poor Jews that they've borne the brunt of so much hatred for so long. My mother used to say that all the Jews she knew in London were highly educated and cultured people, who naturally did well in business and became prosperous. She thought anti-semitism must be some kind of jealousy. (Who knows?)
The worst of anti-semitism, it seems inarguable, took place in Nazi Germany, the epitome of the right-wing totalitarian state. And of course the ultimate insult, especially for the Left, is to call someone a Nazi. So, I always think it's an interesting twist these days, that the extreme Islamics, the most vehemently anti-Jewish people in existence today, enjoy the implicit, or even explicit, support of the left-wing press all over the world. And isn't it remarkable that America, one of the few countries standing between the democratic Jewish homeland and the Islamofascist states surrounding her, is vilified mercilessly for its trouble?

What a weird world we live in!

Palomar · 2004-10-21 08:12:15

Anti-semitism has always been a mystery to me; I don't know what it is about the poor Jews that they've borne the brunt of so much hatred for so long. My mother used to say that all the Jews she knew in London were highly educated and cultured people, who naturally did well in business and became prosperous. She thought anti-semitism must be some kind of jealousy. (Who knows?)

*I haven't known enough Jewish people to really know, nor have I ever lived in an area with a large Jewish population, but it seems to me they have a very strong bond based on blood ties as well as religion. They seem to network, cooperate, stick together -- loyalty and identity -- better than most other societal groups I can think of. They've lasted as a cultural identity for thousands of years now.

Apparently they have enough unity within themselves to have survived and remained strong despite lots of hardships...and, again, maintained their identity, traditions, Hebraic culture, etc., in the process.

I think THAT is likely another basis of jealousy. By comparison, I have personally witnessed the interactions of two distinct ethnic groups (which will go unnamed). The one is relatively cooperative with one another, honest and fair-dealing; the other tends to be suspicious, back-stabbing and deceitful. The latter wonders why they can't get ahead and be at the same economic status as the former.

Duh. Maybe they'll figure it out some day.

Groups which work WITH each other fare much better than those who work AGAINST each other. Should be obvious, I'd think, but some people apparently don't get it.

--Cindy

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