Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

Earthfirst · 2004-02-27 11:55:49

I see how it is when I go on about the flood of mexicans in the us people dont seam to care, but when poor sewdean gets over ran you care? I sea the same ultra polical correctness in america too, if you saying anything about you are labaled an racist or conseritive right winger. If you want to sea the 3rd world just take a drive through any southwestern us city little mexica, or bario. It looks just like mexica or what ever south american counrty they came from. Spanish not english sings, rampit crime, drugs, prosition. For example my home city Phoenix Arizona has become the car theif capital of the us, the highest home invasin rate, I dont know about rape. But every once in while mass graves of illegal alians are found in the desert, murder by smuglers.
But even W Bush wont do anything about because he is afriad of lossing a few hispanic votes! :rant: I a republican am mad about it.
We need the army down on the border shooting any one that seenks across. And Stop all legal immigration too!
My home is the refugee resettlement place for some reason the us government settles them here. Bosenns, suddan, and alot of other nationalites. I persanitly tear down or spit on spanish signs or write" learn english dawn foriegner!"
The same with people from california, they steal are water than immigrat here because it too crowed, while stop coming here and tearing up the desert for gulf crouses and subdivsion, and democrats. Arizona is a consevitive state no homeosexual marriges here!
:realllymad: :rant: :bars2:

clark · 2004-02-27 12:02:19

Silly hill-billy living in the desert. :laugh:

Shaun Barrett · 2004-02-27 20:06:06

I tend to agree that there are problems with assimilation of immigrant cultures into the mainstream cultures of America and Europe etc. I've read convincing material, by obviously thoughtful writers, which suggests that all immigration throughout all of history has always seemed like the end of the world to the mainstream culture. Yet somehow things seem to pan out O.K.
On the other hand, reports like Gennaro's and others make me think there could be an immigration threshold beyond which the host culture cannot survive in recognisable form. And where the immigrants are islamic and have larger families than the host culture and espouse an alien political system based on theocracy, then it appears that the complete usurping of the host culture is eventually inevitable.
This destruction of western democracy by stealth, if that's what it is (and I'm perfectly prepared to be shown that it isn't), is a problem which needs to be dealt with. I don't regard the islamic theocracies as free societies and for me to live in one would be the end of freedom as far as I'm concerned. If the price of freedom is eternal vigilance, shouldn't we be just as vigilant against a gradual demographic erosion of freedom as against any other kind?

Comments like Josh's are also of concern to me because they highlight the arrogance of the politically correct. There is an assumption that if someone argues a point which is against the doctrine of the PCs ("Politically Corrects"), then that point is automatically beneath contempt, somehow morally bankrupt and unworthy of the attention of those who have higher minds than we do. Such arrogance is not only extremely offensive in my experience, but it stifles sensible debate and casts all PCs in a bad light - and many of them don't really deserve to be, being basically good souls with open minds who happen to have been misled.
What really worries me is a phenomenon which is becoming more and more apparent here in Australia; the phenomenon whereby the morality of the few becomes the law of the many. This is readily recognisable in the case of sentencing for crimes. There is uproar here every few weeks as we get news of another criminal being given community service orders or a suspended sentence or a minimal custodial sentence for a crime we all know should be severely punished. The magistrates and judges are under constant attack by the people, via the media, for releasing criminals back into society with little more than a rap on the knuckles.
Sections of Sydney, in New South Wales, are police no-go areas, ruled by large gangs of Lebanese islamic youths who regard young females of European origin as sexual libertines and therefore fair targets for gang-rape. (A similar situation to Sweden, according to Gennaro.)
To protest against either of the above situations is to attract a condescending put-down based on the superior morality and understanding of the 'real issues' of the authorities, versus the red-neck thirst for vengeance of the ignorant or xenophobic rabble (us! ).
Despite the democracy in which we Aussies ostensibly live, the will of the majority is overridden by the 'superior sensibilities' of the politico-legal profession.
The last person to be executed in Australia was hanged in 1967. Capital punishment was then outlawed. Time and again, opinion polls have demonstrated that the great majority of Aussies believe capital punishment should be reintroduced for certain types of crime, and where there is no room for doubt about the accused's guilt.
But I have been told that even if a million signatures were obtained on a petition, the subject of capital punishment would never be raised in federal parliamentary debate and no referendum on the subject will ever be countenanced. It seems that a covert bipartisan ban is in place such that neither of the main political parties will touch the subject.
Now, whether you believe in capital punishment or not, if you have any regard for democracy (this is where Josh gets off the bus, being an anarchist) this should trouble you deeply. I get the impression it's a worlwide ban on the discussion of capital punishment, in flagrant contravention of the democratic right of the majority to determine how they are governed.

What I've written here may seem a little off-topic but it does relate to mass immigration. If you asked the Swedish people (or the French or the Germans) what they wanted to do about the mass immigration of islamic ethnic groups into their country, they would probably say let's stop it, at least for now. They would probably say let's have a national debate and decide whether we want this and, if we do, on what terms and conditions do we want it?
But the governments of the world don't seem to want to listen to the people on tricky subjects like this one. Here in Australia there is no national debate on Lebanese gang rapists assuming control of a section of our largest city. The judges and parliamentarians (mostly lawyers) conspicuously ignore the outrage of the Australian people over lenient sentencing. We are not even allowed to talk about capital punishment.
It concerns me very greatly that we are being told what's good for us by 'the authorities' in the name of political correctness. We are being told our views and opinions aren't as morally sound as theirs and will be ignored.

To me, this is a cancer in the very marrow of democracy and we should be looking for ways to cut it out.
???

Cobra Commander · 2004-02-27 20:59:47

To me, this is a cancer in the very marrow of democracy and we should be looking for ways to cut it out.

Good choice of words. Excellent post, Shaun.

I have to admit, I'd expected far more vehement disagreement on this point and if anything this discussion has strengthened my original impressions and made me even more alarmed at where we're headed.

Never again will I hold my tongue just to avoid offending anyone or avoid a hassle. Too much is at stake. I've been meaning to file those candidacy forms with the state election office for too long. Monday morning. If our governments won't do anything, I guess it's up to us, collectively. Anyone else in, save the Western, free, democratic way of life in our own little corners of the world?

Earthfirst · 2004-02-27 22:24:31

I ant no hill billy, what are you a carpet bager?
I dont realy tear signs down, or spit on them, thats just how I feel about them when I see them silly billy. I see how it it is just because I am from the south I must be a hill billy, wrong!
I live in the city so that would make me a red neck, but I alwise protect my neck in the summer time so I dont have a red neck. I am realy just a young student that like to tell it as I see it, if you think that makes me less intelligent then you, then your the one that is the stupid hilly billy clark! :laugh:
Dont take ever thing as fact, I like to to say strange things because I find it funny, not every thing is life and death.
Lightin up!

Rxke · 2004-02-28 06:34:48

Said i wouldn't go into political discussions, only yesterday.

But this is 'bout Europe, so...

Immigrants? In Belgium they were called 'Gastarbeiders' (Guest-labourers) We actually, in the golden 60's sent pamphlets to Turkey, Italy (wich was then a very poor country), Marocco, etc with an invitation to come over here to work. We did that. "Come over to our nice country and earn megabucks"

Why? Economics 'n employment in Europe was at an all time high, you could cherrypick any job you wanted, so the 'dirty' jobs, like working in the coalmines were not being taken up anymore. Big problem for industry.
Solution: Ask for poor immigrants. And they came in droves, and sure enough lived in enclaves etc...
Now these first generation people speak broken Dutch or French(we're bilingual) because they didn't have time to go to school, too busy to work... They leaned Dutch in the mines, from colleages, also mostly foreigners, with the occasional native speaker (most of the times the boss) After years of hard work, they sent over their wives, started a family. Second gen. Speaks fluent, goes to school, working hard to get high grades, father tells them "you don't want to work in mine, you study for decent job!" I remember one of those kids, when i was a kid at school (mid,end 70's) Ali whatchisname. Very nice, happy kid, bit weird because he can't eat some things...
We liked him.

And then problems start: (oil)Depression of the 70's-80'90's unemployment rising sharply... Voices starting to say those dirty foreigners taking our jobs, their kids at school being looked upon and worse.
By the mid eighties, there was a splinter fraction in politics emerging with the name Vlaams Blok (Flemish Bloc) They had 'funny' slogans like: "i'd rather have a nuclear rocket in my backyard than a commie in my kitchen," wich was a popular idea during the cold war. They also had slogans like: "Turkish rats, roll your mats"
That was unheard of, and saying you supported that party, marked you as a total extremist...

Some years later...there aint no jobs left. The mines close.
And all the while new, not-asked-for immigrnts come in.
Now the situation is getting ugly: Extreme-right using the foreigner-problem to much succes, by the mid nineties, saying you're going to vote for the 'Blok' still elicits heated discussions, but by that time the party is getting more and more votes. Young foreingers are more and more subjected to racism, even in class. "Makak" (Macaque) is becoming a *very* popular word, for describing foreigners...

I predict next election they'll be in power in at least one mayor city. Some big parties caving in, and slowly start to talk with them...
But they don't do anything about the source of the problem. Why are the kids revolting-'regressing' towards Islam? Because we shun them. Racism is rampant. I worked for a company that employed more than 500 people. One (1) of them was a (second generation) Turk. If you know 20% of the population is foreigner, you get the picture. I happen to know the guy fairly well, heck he's a friend of mine, and it's "funny": he looks western, and with his smart glasses looks like a very bright one, too (he is) He was raised here, so 100% "integrrated" So people like him. And then they ask whatsyername... Unbelievable how people's faces, behaviour change...
That's so....
I never go to dancing,, but did it once, with him, to get to know how foreigners are being treated. Bouncers would let us in, but at the last sec, we would start talking turkish to eachother (i pretended) 99% of the cases the bouncers did a double take and refused him acces. I was gaging, i tell you, and i'm a skinny kid... He said don't worry, happens all the time, Great.
He sais time will sort things out. I doubt it.

(ok, enough anecdotal stuff.)

Byron · 2004-02-28 08:04:02

What I've written here may seem a little off-topic but it does relate to mass immigration. If you asked the Swedish people (or the French or the Germans) what they wanted to do about the mass immigration of islamic ethnic groups into their country, they would probably say let's stop it, at least for now. They would probably say let's have a national debate and decide whether we want this and, if we do, on what terms and conditions do we want it?
But the governments of the world don't seem to want to listen to the people on tricky subjects like this one. Here in Australia there is no national debate on Lebanese gang rapists assuming control of a section of our largest city. The judges and parliamentarians (mostly lawyers) conspicuously ignore the outrage of the Australian people over lenient sentencing. We are not even allowed to talk about capital punishment.
It concerns me very greatly that we are being told what's good for us by 'the authorities' in the name of political correctness. We are being told our views and opinions aren't as morally sound as theirs and will be ignored.
To me, this is a cancer in the very marrow of democracy and we should be looking for ways to cut it out.
???

Good post, Shaun. Having visited Sydney in 1986, finding it to be an extremely safe city both day and night, the idea of "no-police" zones ruled by gangs clearly illustrates the changes that have taken place over the past couple of decades, and how quickly things can turn for the worse because of unyielding political paradigms.

Here in the States, both major political parties support continued immigration, so there's no real debate on that issue...the problems come in with dealing with the actual immigrants themselves...like pregnent mothers sneaking across the Rio Grande to have a baby at an American hospital, not only is it free of cost to her, a new American citizen is created on the spot. This, of course, leads to large numbers of Spanish-speaking kids in the schools, etc, and indeed, if I were to get into a car and drive 30 miles to the south, I would be in a 100% Spanish-speaking neighborhood, just as if I was in another country. But what has saved this country from being obliberated by non-American cultural standards is the adoption of American-style values by a majority of immigrants throughout the past two centuries, a process that still continues today, for the large part. (Which is why America's naturalization program has such widespread support.) People that have come to the U.S. in the past came for opportunity in exchange for hard work and for opportunites they could only dream about in their homelands. They came and built family businesses, got involved in their communities, had families, etc. Over the course of a generation, these immigrants are pretty much indistinguishable from "ordinary" Americans, especially since America had always been a polyglot nation pretty much from the beginning.

The threat to America then, is not from the continuing flow of immigrants over the years, but the surging numbers of "illegals"...the laborers who come over to perform jobs no one else wants (and we vitally depend on as a nation)...people who *don't* become assimilated into American culture, they generally don't learn English or start businesses (any extra money they make in the U.S. is usually wired back home), and they really have no stake in America with the exception of making a living wage. Not to mention the waves of immigrant criminals that come over for better pickings... The American government certainly knows about this problem, but has pretty much shut off all debate on that issue, with the exception of Bush's "guest worker" program, which would make the problem worse, imo. Like Europe, we cannot afford to have an underclass of unwanted, unassimilated, non-naturalized immigrants...anyone with a half a brain can see this is bad for a nation...whether it be the U.S., Sweden or Australia. And the problem seems remarkably similar in all three countries as well. Interesting, huh? A lot of the governments' attitude on this issue stems from economics...if we shut off or limit immigration, where would the cheap labor come from. Businesses don't like being without cheap labor, so you can bet your bottom dollar they will keep influencing the right people in power to make sure the flow of cheap labor keeps coming (read: "illegals" or temp workers.)

I guess more of us "little people" (read: Citizens) need to start making some noise, at least...

B

Palomar · 2004-02-28 08:46:07

But what has saved this country from being obliberated by non-American cultural standards is the adoption of American-style values by a majority of immigrants throughout the past two centuries, a process that still continues today, for the large part. (Which is why America's naturalization program has such widespread support.) People that have come to the U.S. in the past came for opportunity in exchange for hard work and for opportunites they could only dream about in their homelands. They came and built family businesses, got involved in their communities, had families, etc. Over the course of a generation, these immigrants are pretty much indistinguishable from "ordinary" Americans, especially since America had always been a polyglot nation pretty much from the beginning.
The threat to America then, is not from the continuing flow of immigrants over the years, but the surging numbers of "illegals"...the laborers who come over to perform jobs no one else wants (and we vitally depend on as a nation)...people who *don't* become assimilated into American culture, they generally don't learn English or start businesses (any extra money they make in the U.S. is usually wired back home), and they really have no stake in America with the exception of making a living wage. Not to mention the waves of immigrant criminals that come over for better pickings...

*Excellent points, Byron. Thanks for pointing out the differences.

A friend of my husband's, now deceased, was of Mexican-American descent (perhaps 3rd generation American). Hard working, owned a prosperous barber shop, etc. Chris bitterly (and VOCALLY) complained about illegal immigrants who come here "with their wallets in America and their hearts in Mexico." I've known other persons of Mexican-American descent who get angry if only a Mexican flag is displayed in a Latino-owned restaurant (so long as the U.S. flag is also displayed, I don't mind the Mexican flag's presence).

There's a lot of very difficult issues here, which Shaun, Gennaro, and others have pointed out.

Is everyone here familiar with the story of "The Goose that Laid the Golden Egg?"

If people value something enough, they'll take care of it. If they don't, well... ::sigh::

I know lots of people don't like Ayn Rand, but I really DO think she was "onto something" when she discussed the twin issues of jealousy and appeasement in her political writings. She was rather effective at nailing human nature and ulterior motives (not to mention blatant stupidity as well) to the wall.

I have many areas of disagreement with Rand as well, but not on those issues.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-02-28 09:15:26

... Sections of Sydney, in New South Wales, are police no-go areas, ruled by large gangs of Lebanese islamic youths who regard young females of European origin as sexual libertines and therefore fair targets for gang-rape. (A similar situation to Sweden, according to Gennaro.)
To protest against either of the above situations is to attract a condescending put-down based on the superior morality and understanding of the 'real issues' of the authorities, versus the red-neck thirst for vengeance of the ignorant or xenophobic rabble (us! ).

*Well, as a woman, I am deeply troubled by this.

If these women are being singled out for gang rape based on their ethnicity, that is a HATE CRIME.

Preferential treatment (such as going soft on criminals of a different ethnicity) is also racism, if you think about it -- which works in *favor* of the perpetrator.

Any sort of preferential treatment ISN'T equality.

Of course, in the U.S. we have serial killers (99.5% of which involved exclusively female victims) and the seeming prevalent attitude is "Oh, how sad. Some shmuck had to take his insecurities out on all those poor women. Yawn..." Almost as if it is "par for the course," just "another part of the dark side of life." Is a similar attitude also prevalent in Sweden and Australia, as regards these gang rapes?

I'm -not- a feminist, as long-term members know. I'm looking at this from my humanistic point of view. I'm glad Shaun and Gennaro are outraged enough to wish to protect women. Thank you!

Any governmental body which indicates (either because of "political correctness" or sheer cowardice) that a certain crime is "okay" based on ethnicity (i.e. minority perpetrator upon majority victim) is criminal in and of itself. ANY excuse for crime (or turning a blind eye to it, i.e. apathy) -- regardless of who's doing it, where, etc., -- is an OUTRAGE. And to try and guilt induce protestors into silence on top of it? That's beyond outrageous. It's telling the victim: You HAVE to endure this.

This is pure bullcrap.

If I were ever the victim of rape, I wouldn't care what he looked like or where his ancestors are from: The as*hole is going to prison if I can help it.

As for Shaun's other comment: "If the price of freedom is eternal vigilance, shouldn't we be just as vigilant against a gradual demographic erosion of freedom as against any other kind?"

I would say YES.

I didn't realize the complexity of these issues elsewhere when this thread first started, until Gennaro chimed in. It -seems- we in the U.S. are having a bit of an easier time with immigration and etc., by comparison.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-02-28 13:05:56

I didn't realize the complexity of these issues elsewhere when this thread first started, until Gennaro chimed in. It -seems- we in the U.S. are having a bit of an easier time with immigration and etc., by comparison.

Based on a number of things I've read recently from several sources, I get the impression that Europe and Australia are about a decade ahead of the US with various policies and programs that contribute to these problems. We're right behind them, I for one have taken the warning.

Of course, in the U.S. we have serial killers (99.5% of which involved exclusively female victims) and the seeming prevalent attitude is "Oh, how sad. Some shmuck had to take his insecurities out on all those poor women. Yawn..." Almost as if it is "par for the course," just "another part of the dark side of life." Is a similar attitude also prevalent in Sweden and Australia, as regards these gang rapes?

That's another issue, related to the same problems. Our justice system, apparently not only in the US but Europe and Australia as well has completely lost track of priorities. It is not uncommon for people to go to prison longer for drug trafficking or tax-evasion than for rape or murder.

Personally, I'd employ more primitive "corrective" methods on rapists involving sharpened stakes administered with a certain talionic symmetry. I can't help but think that if confronted with enclaves of such people, I'd be capable of truly medieval retaliation.

Maybe I'm just pissed off today, this has been more enlightening than expected. It's worse than my initial impressions led me to believe.

Palomar · 2004-02-28 13:18:22

Maybe I'm just pissed off today, this has been more enlightening than expected. It's worse than my initial impressions led me to believe.

*Yes...I must say I'm feeling a lot more enlightened myself; and many of my perceptions have indeed changed recently!

The future doesn't bode well for Western women especially, given the trends. If our own govt's let us down and play along with the "blame the victim" mentality... ::shudders::

Looks like that's already happening in Norway...of all places (refer to the link in my signature line). Damn.

--Cindy

[http://www.weblog.nohair.net/archives/steyn.html]From sig line

Byron · 2004-02-28 15:21:06

Maybe I'm just pissed off today, this has been more enlightening than expected. It's worse than my initial impressions led me to believe.
*Yes...I must say I'm feeling a lot more enlightened myself; and many of my perceptions have indeed changed recently!
The future doesn't bode well for Western women especially, given the trends. If our own govt's let us down and play along with the "blame the victim" mentality... ::shudders::
Looks like that's already happening in Norway...of all places (refer to the link in my signature line). Damn.
--Cindy

The question that I have about all of this...why haven't the people in these respective countries risen up in outrage against their governments? Or it it that they're just blind to what's happening around them, much like the frog being boiled alive?

It really is scary to ponder the ramifications of these ticking demographic time bombs...not to mention the utter violation of basic human rights with the raping, abuse of women, etc. I just hope *somebody* starts smelling the rot around them, and soon...

B

Palomar · 2004-02-28 15:37:14

Maybe I'm just pissed off today, this has been more enlightening than expected. It's worse than my initial impressions led me to believe.
*Yes...I must say I'm feeling a lot more enlightened myself; and many of my perceptions have indeed changed recently!
The future doesn't bode well for Western women especially, given the trends. If our own govt's let us down and play along with the "blame the victim" mentality... ::shudders::
Looks like that's already happening in Norway...of all places (refer to the link in my signature line). Damn.
--Cindy
The question that I have about all of this...why haven't the people in these respective countries risen up in outrage against their governments? Or it it that they're just blind to what's happening around them, much like the frog being boiled alive?
It really is scary to ponder the ramifications of these ticking demographic time bombs...not to mention the utter violation of basic human rights with the raping, abuse of women, etc. I just hope *somebody* starts smelling the rot around them, and soon...
B

*Yep.

Like I pointed out previously: People have got to stop cowering beneath the charge of "racism" -when- it is used as a guilt-induction tactic (IF that is what is going on; I certainly do not deny the fact that racism genuinely exists...and that any human can be racist).

The feeling I'm getting (correct if wrong) is that racism and crimes of the past (slavery for one) are being used as weapons for purposes of guilt induction by people simply wishing to get their own way/have their own benefit. It's seldom outwardly spoken; it's more often insinuated and etc.

What happened in the past has been admitted and owned up to. It was wrong, it was horrible, etc.

Now let's move on. We don't have to forget (in fact, lessons of history should be remembered) -- but we need to move forward and quit the goddamned game playing.

People need to wise up -- like the Norweigan gov't for one -- grow a backbone, employ a bit of critical thinking, and STOP the perpetration of a new batch of crimes resulting from racial guilt induction (which itself is a racist tactic).

As far as I am concerned, the women in the situations Gennaro, Shaun and the article in my link discuss are victims of racist hate crimes (and likewise for any other ethnicities victimized...ANY) -- because they are being targeted on account of their ethnicity.

Wrong is wrong.

--Cindy

Byron · 2004-02-28 15:45:44

Now let's move on. We don't have to forget (in fact, lessons of history should be remembered) -- but we need to move forward and quit the goddamned game playing.
People need to wise up -- like the Norweigan gov't for one -- grow a backbone, employ a bit of critical thinking, and STOP the perpetration of a new batch of crimes resulting from racial guilt induction (which itself is a racist tactic).

Agreed.

B

Rxke · 2004-02-28 16:24:33

Cindy, check your sources.

That article you linked to, ... That Skaarup guy, for instance, may be in government, but he's *not* an objective source. He's one of the more vocal far-right people in Europe...

I have the impression the article cherry picked their sources very carefully to get to *their* conclusion.

consolidating stereotypes is not the way to go. All the comments about Muslims 'okaying' rape etc, that's just insulting. Women have more rights than you'd think in Muslim society. We only tend to remember the excesses (Taliban)

And what's wrong trying to figure out 'where the hate comes from'? The ####### got sentences, right?
We try to figure out 'where the hate comes from' when we nail a serial killer too, nobody asks about that...
These are valid questions.
Saying 'what are we doing wrong' is *NOT* admitting guilt. It's trying to solve a problem...

Muslims are not a bunch of illiterate crazies. They have a beautiful, meaningful culture. But if they come here they have to respect ours. Only then we can respect them. As a person.
And we should.

Palomar · 2004-02-28 16:43:45

Rik: "All the comments about Muslims 'okaying' rape etc, that's just insulting."

*I did NOT say the Muslims are "okaying" rape.

What I said was the WESTERN HOST NATIONS which allow this to happen, turn a blind eye to it, or excuse it are the ones "okaying" it via their apathy and "political correctness."

Rik: "And what's wrong trying to figure out 'where the hate comes from'? The ####### got sentences, right?
We try to figure out 'where the hate comes from' when we nail a serial killer too, nobody asks about that...
These are valid questions.
Saying 'what are we doing wrong' is *NOT* admitting guilt. It's trying to solve a problem..."

*Okay, maybe -this- article will clarify my position more. It was written by a woman in Australia who identifies herself AS a multiculturalist:

[http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/ … 76292.html]http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/ … 76292.html

It's the "blame the victim" mentality, Rik.

Rik: "Muslims are not a bunch of illiterate crazies."

*I never said they were.

Rik: "But if they come here they have to respect ours. Only then we can respect them. As a person.
And we should."

*Right. But I don't call gang rapes of women of a different ethnicity "respecting us" -- when those women were deliberately singled out BECAUSE OF their ethnicity. Australian and Norweigan women shouldn't have to change their lifestyles and clothing values because it clashes with the values of immigrants (who see skimpy or tight clothing as a red-flag for rape).

Who's going to "give in"? Hopefully not the victims.

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-02-28 17:13:01

I was not criticizing you, i was criticizing the article.

And shoot me, but 10-20 young ####-ups are *not* representative for a whole culture. They are criminals, and should be treated that way. I'm sure their family is as outraged about this as everybody else.

Rxke · 2004-02-28 17:38:11

What I said was the WESTERN HOST NATIONS which allow this to happen, turn a blind eye to it, or excuse it are the ones "okaying" it via their apathy and "political correctness."

That, sadly is true. Situation is getting out of hand or already has in several places in europe (Belgium, too, has its no-police-zones, sigh.)
And i think political correctness is a form of racism too, if you don't treat people equal, be it in a positive or negative way, you admit you see them as different, hence racism. Got to stop.
A big problem is, the fact that some excesses get too much press, and as a result innocent people get a bad name, too. They get shunned, etc. Some of them revolt, and it gets worse fast. Solution?

Here in Ghent, in the suburbs it was getting out of hand, but things are going smooth again. How? Yes, some more police patrols, some arrests, but most of all, after that: 1) a simple middle-aged friendly copper on a bike, leisurely driving around, talking to people, elders, Belgians and foreigners alike. Minor irritations got resolved before things escalated.
2) neighbourhood committees organizing little thingies like in the summer a large barbeque for the whole street, meet your neighbour, you lived next to him for four years but didn't know him, funny guy, eats red hot chilly peppers like it is sweets, lots of laughter, singing, great musicians etc...
Simple small things like that.
Hey, it didn't cost an arm and a leg, but the neighbourhood is again livable, despite the high unemployment, poverty etc... It took a while, and it is an on-going effort (try to explain that newly-arrived family from Burundy they cant just throw their trash out on the street, like they used too... Don't let it get to you, but go up to them, with a smile, and tell them we do it different here, and if they have troubles with their papers: "hey, i'll look if i can understand 'em, or otherwise, that 'ol men on his bike, no he's not a soldier, haha..."

And sure, things still get ugly now and then, but it's not the same anonymous place anymore,people help eachother out.

Works much better than all those grand shemes devised by politicians in Brussels, earning more in an hour than most people do in a month...

(I forgot to mention there is a centre for asylum seekers in the street next to me, and a lot end up in our neighbourhood. Too much of them, if you ask me, but they're people, not dogs.)

Cobra Commander · 2004-02-28 19:43:39

Rxke, you make some good points. But as for that article, even if the sources were selected to support a far-right agenda, they still represent real events. Sometimes, just sometimes, the far-right is right. Not often, but we should rarely discount something entirely based solely on the source.

I have no problem with immigration, I admire people who give up everything they know to move to a foreign land and work for a better life. But it is the immigrant who must adapt to the host country, not the other way around. If I were to move to Saudi Arabia I would be a fool to expect them to accomodate me. Why are we so damned concerned about offending people who chose to come to our nations? People should know what Sweden, or Belgium or Australia or the US are before relocating there. I welcome new arrivals, but I will resist a hostile foreign invader, even if he does have a Resident Alien card.

We don't have to close the borders, deport foreign workers or become raging Nazis to fix the problem, but we do have to fix it.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-02-28 22:09:25

Rxke:-

I'm sure their family is as outraged about this as everybody else.

As far as the Lebanese guy with the 55 year jail sentence goes, the answer to your comment is: Nope!
A journalist visited the home of this young 'gentleman' and spoke to his parents and siblings and other relatives. They all tried to defend him!
These people were trying to minimise his crime, even though this family member of theirs had orchestrated the whole rape by using his cell phone to call every Lebanese guy he knew to come and join in the sickening violation of an innocent young woman.
I saw and heard this straight from the family on my T.V. set. This is not second-hand information exaggerated for political purposes.

This islamic family just didn't get it!!

It was as if a jail sentence for a young islamic man raping an 'infidel' woman of European origin was unthinkable. You could see it in their faces: "What's the big deal?"

I find the whole thing horrific and, unless something is done to prevent the PCs from imperiously ignoring the people by sweeping this kind of thing under the carpet whenever they can, I can see nothing but trouble ahead.
If governments continue to shirk their responsibilities by pussy-footing around this critical issue, we will surely see the emergence of vigilantism. If men see their women being assaulted and nothing is being done to stop it, it's only a matter of time before they will take the law into their own hands. There's only so much a normally law-abiding man can tolerate.
Things could get very ugly.
???

Rxke · 2004-02-29 04:24:17

Our governments let things get out of hand.
P.C.-ness and all that is stupid. It interferes with honest discussion.
Still, I want Islamic, Hindu, ... people on Mars. It would be crazy not to accept them. 99% of those people are just like us, trying to do the right thing.

I'm out of here. I'm not a politician.

DonPanic · 2004-03-01 05:06:00

LO

We need the army down on the border shooting any one that seenks across. And Stop all legal immigration too!

Didn't California, Texas, Arizona, Nevada, Colorado and some other states belong to Mexico ?
Haven't these states a spanish name ?
These territories have been taken by force, and somehow are being reoccupied by mexican born people as an historical backlash, so, some complain they feel no more at home because they are surrounded by spanish speaking people,

I persanitly tear down or spit on spanish signs or write" learn english dawn foriegner!"

So clever an attitude ! Don't you forget to spit on these US spanish named states signs.
They'd better learn spanish, (and by the way learn english too), they'll find a great litterature,
and learning a foreign language, that makes brains work and opens minds. (For some it would be a great job).
Anyways, if they don't, sons of mexican immigrants will learn english, spanish, and non spanish speaking US citizens will suffer an handicap in job seeking

dickbill · 2004-03-01 10:39:01

Any foreigner should respect the uses and coutumes of their host country and most importantly the law. Also, there is a sense of fairness that would suggest that exploiting the generosity and naive side of naturally good people of the host country, is unfair.

This is true for those who exploit the immigrants, for selfish profit but also true for the immigrants that gets involved in all sort of trafic and crimes, also for selfish profit. Money rules.

I don't understand, for example, why many of the first italian/sicilian that came to america tried to reinstall the mafia since they had the oportunity to start over from scratch by hard and honest work. The money, the money, always the money.

Bill White · 2004-03-01 10:50:51

The money, the money, always the money.

This unites us all in cross-cultural unity.

dickbill · 2004-03-01 11:29:15

The money, the money, always the money.
This unites us all in cross-cultural unity.

It has not always been like that. During the "enlightment" period that Cindy describes so well, money was respected but not worshiped. Human values were most important I believe.
Before, if you think about the old nobility in Europe, Money was even not an issue. That is what make the middle age so attractive, you could be respected for your courage, chivalry and generosity much more than for you richness. Actually, the "rich bourgeois" were maybe feared for their power and richness, but in no case considered as moral icons. Religion and Chivalry were the symbol of purity and good moral, not the bourgeois.
Unfortunatly we all know that the church often succumbed to the power of evil, money, power and now flesh. The Chivalry spirit also succumbed to its "inadaptation" to modern world values : the "preux chevalier without fear and reproach" killed by money-driven mercenaries by a bullet in the back.

From time to times, you can still meet some of these living fossils : they all show complete disdain for money and for dangerous situations. And of course, they ignore the stock market, unbelievable !

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