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#26 2022-01-27 09:30:20

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Isaac Arthur produced some interesting work.  I have not completed listening to it.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

Nuclear Terraforming: Using Nukes to Bring Life to Mars

I already have some comments anyway.

I think in using nukes, I would consider doing Korolev Crater or the South Pole.

I am not very in favor of air, or orbital bursts.  I think that the heat from that will dissipate into the universe very quickly.

If we look at the nuclear accident's we have had, only a part of the planet is troubled.  In one case, fallout from the air, and the other Fujishima, more involved with water.

But if you nuke in an isolatable body of water, then not much goes into the thin air of Mars, while the permafrost may very well contain the output.

Just considering Korolev Crater, the ice is very deep.  It is my impression that spent fuel rods, are stored in pools of water and that humans can swim fairly close to them, I think within feet.  So, the fallout contained under the ice of Korolev, much of it would sink to the bottom, so it might still be possible to inhabit the location, if you used common sense.

This then would be a Hydrogen Bomb Nuclear Reactor.  Fusion would be real, and you could use the materials in the water of Mars to make the bulk of the devices.

In the beginning, the first explosions might only involve water for the most part as being transmuted into other substances.  I am no expert.  After that as a body of water was being built, Martian atmosphere could intentionally be dissolved into the water.  With that mix, then subsequent explosions may generate greenhouse gasses such as methane in large quantities, and so then to disperse those into the atmosphere, and to use as propulsion machinery fuel.

If the bombs could be contained in the body of water for the most part, then it might make sense to include things other than H20 and CO2 into the explosions.  The reason is that the fallout falling down to the bottom of the sea, may enable a microbial community to live there and to generate greenhouse gasses.  I was thinking of trying to generate Aluminum 26, but that might actually melt through the permafrost, if in too big a quantity.  So, then a measured quantity, of such things, if it is possible.

And for those who think that is crazy, I recently posted this.

Not this, but it is pretty good: https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2021/07 … 20al%3A%20

Not this: https://digitalcommons.uri.edu/disserta … I10791561/

Starting to get angry.  This is why I like doing everything in just one topic if possible.

Not this: https://phys.org/news/2022-01-extremely … floor.html

THIS:  https://www.uri.edu/news/2021/02/uri-re … e-process/
Quote:

“The marine sediment actually amplifies the production of these usable chemicals,” he said. “If you have the same amount of irradiation in pure water and in wet sediment, you get a lot more hydrogen from wet sediment. The sediment makes the production of hydrogen much more effective.”

Why the process is amplified in wet sediment is unclear, but D’Hondt speculates that minerals in the sediment may “behave like a semiconductor, making the process more efficient.”

So, I think that by adding Martian atmosphere into those waters, you could provide needed organic molecules at a large rate, and possible facilitate the activities of Methanogens.

So, this bioreactor would produce fuels.

As for the surface, you might grow plants/Algae/Cyanobacteria's, in some manner, to produce Oxygen.  The bulk of the radioactivity will be on the bottom of the sea anyway.

Probably you would want robots to work on the bottom, to mix up the sediments, and the dissolved gasses.

You would probably want to reject heat to the universe to generate electricity.  And you might want to eject steam into the high atmosphere, as the water would be preheated, and then you could use a secondary heat source to heat it to a very high temperature, and then simply vent it to atmosphere through turbines.

So, then you could have terraforming gasses, and water vapor placed high up, and could also use orbital mirrors.  In fact, if you had this thing swinging at full throttle, you might send microwaves up to orbit and bounce them down to the polar ice caps?

If you did that and melted small pockets of ice water, then you would have more active biosphere.

Any thoughts?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-27 10:02:47)


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#27 2022-01-27 12:34:27

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I do note that Issac Arthur indicated that a nuclear blast could be cleaner, if you made it larger.  But of course, you have to manage it properly.

As for the hive mind people who think of other people as their food and seek to jostle for positions in the division of wealth, and the use of appoint and anoint, I'm rather sure that you are rather quite evil.

And I do believe that there will be a punishment for what you do.  Just letting you know.  It can't be like public school, where everything is rigged, or College, where also sometimes things are rigged.  OK, go ahead and keep trying to prosper from a rigged game, but I am just telling you that I believe that it is going to blow up in your faces.  It will just take some more time.

As for blowing up, the fusion reactor I suggested in the previous post might be quite the thing for many icy worlds.  So, we either get life from it as people or if you are such that you cannot be trusted with sharp objects or a little power, that is not my problem.  Not forever anyway.

Done smile

Last edited by Void (2022-01-27 12:36:24)


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#28 2022-01-28 08:37:11

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Melting permafrost with microwaves:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 2X2100029X
Quote:

Microscopic mechanisms of microwave irradiation thawing frozen soil and potential application in excavation of frozen ground
Author links open overlay panelHailiangJiaaTingWangbWeihangChencShunDingaTaoLuodQiangSunb
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.coldregions.2021.103248Get rights and content
Highlights

Microwave irradiation is a promising way to thaw frozen soil efficiently.


Frozen soil containing unfrozen water is the fundamental cause of the rapid melting.


A work flow of microwave-assisted excavation in frozen ground was proposed.


Abstract
Engineering activities are becoming increasingly frequent in seasonally frozen and permafrost regions. Artificially thawing frozen soil before excavation may significantly increase the efficiency of excavation and reduce cost. Microwave irradiation can thaw frozen soil very rapidly, but has not yet been widely used in the field. One important reason is that the mechanisms of thawing and softening of frozen soil by microwave irradiation are not fully understood yet, therefore, the practicability and efficiency of this method cannot be well evaluated. In this study, microwave irradiation tests of frozen soils with five moisture contents were conducted and changes in their temperature, unfrozen water content and strength were measured. The results showed the following: (1) Microwave irradiation heating thawed frozen soil with a temperature of −14.4 °C completely within 60 s. The interior and surface of frozen soil samples melted simultaneously. (2) Conduction heating required 8400 s to melt frozen soil with the same temperature, which is 140 times longer than microwave irradiation. (3) Strength of the frozen soil decreased rapidly during microwave irradiation. Combined with the results of nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) tests, it was found that the fundamental cause of the rapid melting of frozen soil is that a certain amount of unfrozen water exists between ice and soil grains. Accordingly, the following microscopic mechanisms of microwave irradiation thawing frozen soil are revealed. Unfrozen water absorbs microwaves and its molecular thermal motion increases along with its temperature. Then heat is transferred to ice and soil grains and frozen soil is thawed further. Based on a careful discussion on the efficiency and penetration depth of microwave-induced thawing, it was suggested that microwave heating is a promising artificial thawing technology in excavation of frozen ground.

Anyhow, I am speculating on it as a tool to melt Martian polar ice caps, and to make them habitable to microbes for terraforming purposes.

Along with that possibility to use microwaves to raise water into the Martian higher atmosphere.

There could be some impediments to these things that I have not yet understood, so it is an attempt, not an assertion of certainty.

I do understand that solid water ice does no respond much to microwaves.  Dirty water ice likely does.
For CO2 ice, I still have to look.
For vapors rising in the atmosphere, I still have to look.
For supercooled water droplets in the atmosphere, I still have to look.
For ice crystals, in ice clouds, I still have to look.

It is possible that orbital methods involving both microwaves, and reflective mirrors might work.

OK, here is something for the Dry Ice, (CO2 ice):
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Mi … b3bd54bf7e

OK, so, I guess I leave this with unanswered questions.  Gotta do other things.

But it would be of interest even for Earth to know if you could manipulate clouds with microwaves from orbit, or even from the ground.

As for Mars, I have always felt that eventually humans will want to manipulate a water cycle of the polar ice caps, as eventually most water vapor seems likely to me to want to freeze back to the poles over time and weather.

So, manipulating these two rather large reservoirs could be important.  It just might be possible to liquify them sort of from the inside out.
It seems that Dry Ice and Water Ice may not melt easily from microwaves, and so, I would hope the microwaves might start to melt pockets of water inside the ice masses, where particles of dirt exist.  Not sure that works for Mars, but it is a hope.

Then you would simply keep doing it until these ice bodies contained significant amounts of liquid water covered by ice and snow perhaps.

Granted that is a lot of energy just to make ice water, but in some cases natural sunlight passing through the ice could stimulate photosynthesis.  And there could be light from orbital mirrors.

Such a system could also send a lot of power for humans and their industrial processes to locations all over the planet.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-28 08:56:30)


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#29 2022-01-28 10:07:42

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

As a continuation of the just prior post #28, this query seems to be useful: "Manipulating Clouds with microwaves".

My browsing is acting up.  I will close out and try again.  I could not get that query to give me more than images.  That is strange.

But I have this, which I have not fully read yet: Query; "aquariusradar.com, An example microwave heating of clouds by a powerful radar to"
http://www.aquariusradar.com/radarshadow.html
http://www.aquariusradar.com/rainshadowmap.html
https://theweatherforums.com/index.php? … riusradar/

Well, lets just call the above "Raw Materials", not yet turned into a resource.

I don't have time to study, but it seems possible that there is a tool for terraforming in there. 

Also seems possible that you could increase evaporation from ocean waters.  I have been interested in doing that with orbital mirrors, but I fear it would drive the birds and animals nuts.

If I am to understand it, microwaves for power delivery can be low enough in intensity, that it will not bother humans or animals.
However, if it were of a higher intensity, it would be unpleasant.  Still higher and it would damage you, all the way to kill you.

And here is a potential partner process where the intentional promotion of nucleation particles could help create the cloud layer that might warm the planet:
https://earthsky.org/space/how-meteors- … ing%20Mars.
Quote:

How meteors create Mars’ clouds

We of course have Phobos and Deimos from which we might eject particles for nucleation purposes.



Gotta go.

Done.

True, but I must say that for Mars, the two current objectives I would have for Microwaves beyond power to ground, would be:
1) Melt aquifers inside the polar ice caps, and perhaps Korolev crater.
2) Bring water from ground ice deposits up to the high sky in an attempt to use water vapor as a greenhouse gas.

The two probably can be linked.

Here again is a link about high altitude Martian clouds:
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news … arly-mars/
Quote:

High-Altitude Clouds May Have Warmed Early Mars

As for the aquifer in ice masses, the goal might be to have springs pop up out of the permafrost at the base of the ice caps to form ice covered lakes for photosynthesis.

Here is an article about an aquifer in the Greenland ice cap:
https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/en … ice-sheet/
Quote:

Enormous Aquifer Discovered Under Greenland Ice Sheet

That's it, done.  smile

Last edited by Void (2022-01-28 10:34:44)


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#30 2022-01-30 11:34:56

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am reconsidering the "Dome".  I still don't very much like highly pressurized domes, think they beg for failure, but if I am wrong, after the passage of time and further innovations, then that will be glorious.  I will apologize and be thankful.

I am actually sticking very close to the prior posts, and yet, looking from a different perspective perhaps.

If you are not aware that I am very amateur, then note it now.  But I enjoy trying to puzzle Mars.  An inspiration is, I think the product of this person's type of work.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg/paper1.htm

As I recall it this person indicated the notion that it might be possible to glass over large portions of Mars, to create pressurized habitat.  It is likely to be true, given the passage of time, and presumption of a accumulation of talents of methods.  But I think that we are not the future animated perhaps intelligent beings to be very proficient for that, not yet anyway.

I only happily stumbled onto that link just as I was about to "Vent" my current notions.  Have not correctly read it yet but think I would like to.

For now, I proceed with my current state of thinking on the topic(s).

This will allow for liquid airlocks and will also serve as a light pipe sort of delivery of photons to a medium that can support some living things that can engage in photosynthesis.

I presume an ice layer over the lake, but the air pressure will allow periodic melting of the ice sectionally, to allow for rebuilding the ice windows, using melting.


To seek sufficient reward, I feel that extra methods must be implemented, and that they should be in harmony, if possible, with the notions of terraforming.




If we could get to the point where the CO2 in the ice caps would evaporate to expand the thickness of atmosphere for Mars, then it could more likely support some type of life on the surface.  But it would be a very rugged and unproductive situation.  The rewards would be small of not at all.  And a large increment(s) of time and effort would require a large expenditure of effort for too small a reward.  Virtually impossible to incentivize a communicating animated collection to be willing for the task as it would not be sufficiently rewarding.

I am thinking of a dome with a nominal internal pressure of about 2X that of the existing air pressure of Mars.  That has a range, so, it is a soft and pliable number.  Say maybe 11 mBar to 23 mBar as a very rough guess.

I am thinking of a dome over a lake, that should not surprise you.  This could have also the properties of "Ice Armor", and also that of a tower for Heliostats to project photons to.  And also, I very much embrace nuclear fission, for the lake can be a radiator.  Normal window notions could be included.  Also, windows and mirrors that allow for delivery of photons to sections of the dome, or though it's windows.

------

That is a fair base for the "System", I feel.

I am looking for layering:
-Mars Atmosphere.
-Low pressure domes with ice coverable lakes.
-The water pressure providing a layer of pressure which can allow for;
-Air or water filled warmer materially enclosed pockets of elevated pockets of enhanced environments.

-----
I have some links that may preset for my future posts, if any.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Wh … &FORM=VIRE

https://www.mr.caltech.edu/about/news/l … -suspected

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiX2fEyjXgg

These are things of interest.  I am looking for profit for inhabitation of Mars.

The notion of investing in Mars terraforming until it is suitable for Hobbit's to inhabit, does not seem to me to be a path that could work.  It has to be more sensible to attempt to have a progressing bond between what could be done for Terraforming and what could be done per Paratarraformation.

So, I think I can rest on this for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-30 12:07:49)


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#31 2022-01-30 17:13:21

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think it will be possible to make small higher-pressure domes, which would likely be made into park like conditions.  That would most likely be for human mental health.  However, for agriculture or manufacture, that would be overkill, and perhaps not even affordable.

For the low-pressure domes, it is in my mind to facilitate economic productivity.

The dome itself, may in part not be much stronger than a balloon, if conditions permit it.  It would likely have a frame though that could be of some strength.  Think LEM, perhaps.  That was sort of an aluminum foil balloon, in part as I understand.  Very thick aluminum foil, but sort of a balloon.

A possible reason to maintain an ice-covered lake inside would be that the ice could be a platform for Tesla-Bots, the frame of the dome could host things like hoists.  For giggles, imagine Tesla-Bots skating on the ice.  Maybe not the best, but a humorous vision for me at least.

For agriculture, that might be downstairs under the ice, but it would also be possible to have "Greenhouses" small and pressurized on top of the ice.  My understanding is that 70 mBar might do.

The entire assembly would buffer against many of the extremes of the Martian environment.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-30 17:20:15)


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#32 2022-01-30 18:23:59

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Still on topic, but different world, Earth.

So, we have had "Greenhouse Effect", "Climate Change", "Climate Crisis", if you think I am in the policy of denial of the greenhouse effect, you are wrong.  It is likely that the activity of humans is in the mix.

But this then, as a wild card:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Hung … %20January.

To create global cooling with Sulfur compounds in the atmosphere.  And I would also suggest that if it is the correct kind of explosive eruption, it may fertilize the oceans, and perhaps in some cases land.  So, then a CO2 sink perhaps.

So, in the climate change models do they include these possible factors?

Without such eruptions, you then do not get the possible cooling processes, and yet, also not so much that type of CO2 source for the atmosphere.

Another interesting possible factor is that the crust could be warped by the movement of ice and water.  Rising crust if ice melts, crust pushed down if the oceans fill more.  And could that promote volcanic eruptions?

Of course, volcanic eruptions and rains on the land can decrease the atmospheric bulk in time.

------

I will make a social note about Corvid.  It has proved to be a wonderful tool to more federalize the national attention, but in my opinion a bad overuse of that tool.  Our republic is designed so that that can be summoned upon a deep dark need.

So, those who wish to run our outfit as a Roman Empire, are overusing necessary reserves.  It is not so surprising that when they discover that they have a superpower, that they are amazed, but they should understand that they are overusing a valuable resource.  It is as if a child insists on keeping everyone awake all night.  Behave.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-30 18:39:33)


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#33 2022-02-01 11:54:13

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

OK, this might do.
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2022-01-17/C … index.html

I do not know if the climate change models anticipate periodic eruptions like this.

If not, then it would be natural for the climate to warm up for a while until the next eruption.  I am not saying we should not be concerned about the production of extra greenhouse gasses, and the greening of the deserts by CO2 production, but are the calculations correct to include the probability of such eruptions which put the brakes on for continual warming?

Done.


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#34 2022-02-02 10:22:38

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This did not go well for me.  "Index» Life support systems» Reproduction Away from Earth".

I think I had an answer, but it was not the one desired.  No grudges, rather just that I think that I could perhaps reproduce my not welcome post here, and harm no-one.

We have some things from Elon Musk, supposedly, rather my memories of things I thought could be attributed to him.
-Neuralink.
-Tesla-Bot.
-AI will be smarter than humans in about 5 years.
-If you can beat AI then join it?

So, now, I suggested a "Full Coverage" strategie(s), that I thought had high probabilities of solving problems.  If it turns out that the problem is not as serious as all that, then some of this could be removed from long term planning.  But time will tell.

We know that we would not expect adult humans to live the rest of their lives in microgravity, and so it can be though quite likely that it would not be possible to reproduce a human properly in microgravity.  That is a rather sure bet, I feel.  We similarly have no reason to believe that with today's space medicine, children could be properly raised on the Moon, and quite likely not on Mars.  I guess to be generous, I will just say "Flip a coin" on that.  A coin flip is not enough evidence to base a plan on.

So, on the basis of evolving technology, and some forward estimates on where that will arrive to, we can try to make a plan that works.  As I have said, if the problem somehow is not as much as might be feared, then humans could back off on what is needed.

Could children be replicated in synthetic gravity?  Would synthetic gravity provide continuing health or rehabilitation for adults?
We don't know. 

So, to place a bet, I will just guess, "For the most part, some space medicine in addition may be needed".

In the other topic from which I ejected myself, there was objection to doing genetic engineering.  I would be very shy about it.
But there is a difference between manipulating the "Germ Line", which is the genetic reproductive path, and to doing genetic engineering on an adult individual.  Manipulating adults may be conditionally acceptable to some.  That sort of work is being studies by healt extension researchers.  So, that is a possible path for adaptation to space environments.  To do children would be a step further, and certainly not the thing to start with.

A significant division in the human race is where some feel that "We should fix the problems of Earth, before going into space", and our kind who seem to not think that is what to do.  I consider some of these people to be having criminal thoughts, as it is apparent that what they really mean is they want a class system, and they want to be in the upper class, hence their arrogance to think that they can tell us what our place is.  Not all of them.  Some are innocent, until they should come to understand that they may not take technological people as property/slaves.  The verbal's have no right to own us.

Beyond that we seem to have the fossil thinking that says, "It's Mars or nothing".  Well, in my opinion, that is being seen as not right, as, as soon as you can have spaceships to Mars, you can also then have spaceships to the Moon.  It is not like it was, where if we depended on old space, we would have to make a choice, as there is not enough for both.  There can be enough for each, if each has a financial, and other value sufficient.  And I believe each does.

And beyond that the next question, is Musk/Zubrin > Mars/Maybe Moon, Bezos/other > Synthetic Gravity.   Really this binary stuff is so stupid.  It is a holdover from when tribes used to fight and eat each other.  It is good to have an outlet for the remnants of those primitive urges, but it does not seem to belong to this discussion(s) at this time.

And now Avatars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_(2009_film)

So, now in this fantasy/sci-fi, an individual could have two bodies, and would be conscious in just one at a time.

So a Tesla-Bot + Human + brain augmentation.  So, such an assembly would be a sort of mini hive.  I don't like hive minds beyond the services they can render.

So, a family of mini hives could inhabit both the surface of a world like Mars, and also a synthetic gravity machine.  And so adults sometimes could be on the surface of Mars, but most likely the child will not be on the surface of Mars, except for tolerable intervals.

Of course, a lot of this will not emerge for many years, if it emerges at all.

But the time latency Mars<>Mars Orbit, may be small enough to allow it.  As for brain implants, that is another section of brain being cybernetic?  Well, we will see.

I think I don't want to reproduce any more than the previous.  That is a lot to adjust to as it is.

But Worlds: Mercury, Luna, Mars, Ceres, Vesta, Callisto, and maybe eventually Venus, may allow for this type of existance.

It should be apparent that if tesla bots become real and work, then they will do a lot of work, and there will be a lot of wealth, probably far more than is now.  And so, these things might be afforded.

Or a robot revolution will kill me when I am in a nursing home being fed "Too Hot Soup" forcibly, or having my diaper changed.

It might not be a problem for me at all smile

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-02 11:03:10)


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#35 2022-02-02 19:50:34

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I should probably fix some spelling on the previous post, but not yet.....

So?  How would you like to do VR in a Centaur on Mars?  https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=gr … BasicHover

Some fun, why not?  A Centaur Tesla Bot smile

I don't believe that it will dirty the streets with poo.  Won't need hay or water.

What's wrong with letting the imagination loose?  A bit of fun.  Imagine your other body was a Centaur on Mars.

A little music doesn't hurt, when in your imagination:  https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=he … 4cf0bc6288

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-02 20:09:18)


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#36 2022-02-03 12:46:55

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

The emergence of the manipulators, which could be directed by humans, should improve chances of a solar presence for humans and their devices.

So, things like the Tesla Bot may keep productivity up in an aging population(s) on Earth, where technology can be supported by the culture(s).

But for the Moon, there is the potential for Shipyard association.  That is space constructions, perhaps only on the surface, but more likely
near the Moon for parts of it.

This then may provide for space power to Earth.  The need for large populations in space on and near the Moon, should be reduced by the existence of these abilities.  But provisions for some centrifugal habitations in orbit would make sense to me.

So, this would be like lighting a candle with our Moon, and with a candle you might light others.  So, I do not think it farfetched to think to move constructed machines to Mars orbit from the Earth/Moon system.

In case you are worried, I do approve of "Mars Direct" also, in part to get set up on the surface.

But we should remember that the sun gives propulsive potentials both through the Solar Wind and Photon outflows.

So, once you have a base on Mars, including people, then also machines in orbit, it should be possible to do things with local materials from Phobos, Deimos, and even Mars, and perhaps even some asteroids.

And I do think that the most likely first biosphere we could establish on Mars would be a ring of lakes, which would be ice covered, which would fill due to the use of a combination of orbital energy sources to the polar deposits, which might include microwaves, and mirrors.

This would also be assistive in projecting water vapor into the atmosphere to form high cloud cover, which is supposed to warm the planet, which in turn would assist in turning each ice cap into a sea.  This might be done for Korolev Crater as well.

So, it seems to me that the path ahead can be very rewarding.

Done.

Of course, some type of magnetic field should be established along the way.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-03 12:58:01)


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#37 2022-02-04 09:48:14

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I like to imagine sometimes, that I have a bit of Hunter Gatherer in me.  Here is something we have seen before, but this article, seems just a bit better than the previous ones I have seen.

https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/05/0 … n-the-moon
Quote:

This company is paving the way to Mars by producing oxygen from soil on the Moon

"When we produce oxygen out of the lunar surface, the by-product we get [is] iron, we get silicon, etc. we can use the same process here on Earth to produce iron. And instead of carbon dioxide as a by-product, we get oxygen instead of carbon dioxide".

It is my feeling that we as Americans, (To whom it may apply in what manner, if at all), are fortunate to have other entities on the planet doing problem solving for the future.

I think that different cultures can produce different gifts.  In the case of the USA, it is my opinion that old space is entrapped in a culture of master servant.  It has some liberty but is ensnared to serve political pork.  The good news is that we also have new space of various kinds.

Old space helped to produce a path, but now it is in chains, breaking political rocks so to speak.

Quote again, from the linked article above:

"When we produce oxygen out of the lunar surface, the by-product we get [is] iron, we get silicon, etc.

So, that is something I wondered about.  Can they similarly separate the various materials other than Oxygen?

If so, then space environments may be good places to use a sort of 3D printing/Vacuum Deposition process to build very big machines.

Vacuum Deposition:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_deposition

Even on Mars, in my opinion, large vacuum chambers might be built to enable access to such methods.  After all the existing air pressure @~5.5 Millibar, is ~>1% that of sea level Earth, maybe in Hellas, just a bit more than ~1%.

But I am also very interested in the Moon, as I think it may be that with telepresence and robots, such as ~Tesla Bot, such machines may be possible to create.  And such machines could do a whole lot for humans on various planets, including the Earth.  So, there is a possible service for you dear masters.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-04 10:06:09)


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#38 2022-02-04 12:32:47

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Continuing with things from the Moon>Mars>Ceres>Vesta>Callisto, I have a bigger build notion(s) for previous thinking.

VASIMR:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_ … g%20thrust.
But for what I am after it will need to handle Oxygen, which is not at all inert.  However, my reading indicates that the Soviets handled very hot Oxidizing in their engines, and that Raptor does on one side, the Oxygen side of the engine.  We are pretty sure that we can get a lot of Oxygen from the Moon, so obviously if this could be done, it would be useful.

I am not intending this for typical transfers of humans to Mars, only a few professionals perhaps, but otherwise robotic.

And I am thinking that we would want to also include plasma bubble propulsion, so getting an assist from the solar wind. 

Both processes need electricity in large quantities, and that means gear that has significant mass.

So, then solar electric power.  Either Photovoltaic, or mirrored heat engine, or maybe mirror to solar panel, as in high temperature solar cells.
This again, I am afraid: https://phys.org/news/2016-08-high-temp … solar.html

As we might want all of these things in the orbits of Mars, and perhaps even to be taken down to the surface of Mars, this ship would not be intended to travel back to Earth.

If the Plasma Bubble propulsion method is included, then less Oxygen needs to be provided, and so, the tanks for Oxygen can be less massive.  I have a feeling that Plasma Bubble propulsion, is harder to guide per path and speed over smaller time frames, so the VASIMR, I would hope could be employed at times to compensate for that.

This is all quite different than the generic Mars<>Earth Starship, which may be intended for cargo and humans, and intends to return to Earth.

But this might be like working a river system, say for timber.  As the river flows in one direction, in this case Earth>>>>Mars, we are about in the position of being able to construct a "Raft" of materials, that also work for their passage.  There would be little or no incentive to bring much or any of that "Raft" back from Mars to Earth.  The solar power equipment would go directly into the Martian infrastructure.
As for the two drives, maybe they could go back in a largely empty Starship or be recycled into things to also use for Mars.

And the big hope would be to construct all of this on the Moon, or near it.  Then to actually launch Moon>>>>Mars.

Getting the masses off of the Moon's surface into an orbit is a problem to solve also, but there has already been considerable speculation on that topic.

And of course, the bulk of the labor being done on the Moon, would be with robotics, possibly Tesla Bots, some telepresence from Earth.  And an unknown number of Humans on the Moon.

Obviously, if it is desired to move the delivered materials to the surface of Marrs, a version of Starship should do fine.

I don't have the numbers, but I estimate that the propulsion needed to go Moon>Mars is less than that needed to go Earth>Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-04 12:50:33)


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#39 2022-02-04 14:31:07

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I stumbled on this today.

Very useful for visualization, but unlike me it also contains calculations.  I will probably look for more of his work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjtFJb6rroU

North America potentially has much to gain for some of these possible things.  But these may be quite good for Mars, and maybe even for the type of "Raft to Mars", that is in the previous post.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-06 19:17:45)


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#40 2022-02-06 19:20:07

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Here is some interesting stuff, for my next posting materials below them.

I am aware that others have posted about Ammonia.
Ammonia: (Just have a think)
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ju … 367CD8A217


Something of Peter Zeihan per energy, it is short but has the maps I like:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Pe … M%3DHDRSC3

Here are some of the images for Peter Zeihans work: (I want to be careful with attributions, and not to plagiarize.)
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Pe … HoverTitle

--------

Anyway, I can see that if they ever get a good method to produce Ammonia, from Solar, and perhaps wind, then that might be a thing that could be shipped around instead of fossil fuel products.  And in that case, it might be a thing for other worlds.

--------
I would like to attempt to do a set of solar schemes, to perhaps extend the solar possibilities.

I am going to suggest the addition of multiple hardware items to hope to suggest the chances of it.
Of course, hardware costs money, which could stifle chances of such an achievement.

But remember Robots, including perhaps Tesla Bot and its offshoots.  That may make hardware less expensive.

I return to something like this, yet again: https://phys.org/news/2016-08-high-temp … solar.html

I am thinking that many other hardware items could be included into a process with something like that.  Not necessarily such a high temperature solar cell, but possibly.
-Heliostats
-Heat Pumps
-Thermal storage
-Greenhouses
-Other?  I am guessing other things will pop up.

I am thinking about many worlds.  I guess Mercury, Earth, Luna, Mars, Ceres, Vesta, maybe 16 Psyche, Callisto, and now that I think of it perhaps Ganymede.

All of these potentially could use solar energy.  Of course, Earth Does.  I suppose the Moon has and does.

I am interested in including greenhouses, because they could be a pleasant thing for Earth, and likely a needed thing for other worlds.

Saturation of solar cells is an important question.  There are different types of solar cells obviously so each may saturate or tolerate, at a certain maximum solar input.  So, if your solar cells are not saturated, you may add light using heliostats, to the thermal tolerance of the solar cells.

For that to be worthwhile, the cost of the Heliostats, must not exceed the value of what they can produce into the wealth stream.  Recognized wealth is to satisfy needs and wants, in that order.  On Earth and Mars, damage from weather will be a concern for costs.
For the issue of snow in higher latitudes, however, I am relieved that Heliostats might be able to orient themselves so that the snow does not collect on their mirrors.  For Mars, wind will not be much of an issue, I expect.  Mercury, Luna, Ceres, Vesta, 16 Psyche, Callisto, and Ganymede should not have these concerns.

I think I might like the idea of consideration of the addition of Heat Pumps to solar panels in some situations.  When the sun shines, the panels warm up, and loose efficiency, but when the sun shines there is immediate electricity to run a heat pump, so they match well that way.  And then you store the heat in some manner.  The process then improves the efficiency of the solar panels, and would more permit that addition of additional sunlight to the panels with Heliostats.

An interesting subpart that could be added would be to use the circulation lines for the Heat Pump to flow hot fluids through the panels when it is cold and dark.  Presumably somehow Anti-Solar cells would have to be included into the panels.  More complications of course, but some electric power at night.  I don't think that the Heat Pump would be run in this mode, just a fluid pump.

In the case of use of Heliostats, I have in a previous post suggested that they could be configurable to point at various focus targets.
Solar panels, Thermal heaters/boilers, Light Pipes/Windows of a greenhouse.  Plants do not demand the same solar flux day to day or even hour to hour.  So, they would be flexible in needs for this situation.

------

If you have read my previous stuff, my interest in greenhouses is for other worlds, than Earth, typically, but it would be fun to do this for Earth.  Again, winds will be an issue on Earth for the structure, and other weather events.  But air pressure will not be a problem for Earth.

For Mars, I opt for a low internal pressure dome perhaps or Quonset hut type structures.  Minimum is to keep an ice window from evaporating, but preference would be perhaps 12-24 Millibar internal pressure, not that you could not consider more, but for more than the strength cost goes up.  For preference it would be nice to be able to melt the ice window periodically, or even keep it typically melted, depending on needs.

The way I see it is that with the lower pressure, you could have thinner windows.  Perhaps with Heliostats shining into them.  The dome would not have to all be transparent, just the window parts.

------

Well, I am hoping that if robots drop the cost of hardware such as Heliostats, then more of the world could have successful solar energy than what Peter Zeihan currently indicates.  Probably the green part of the map will never be worth it, but perhaps the orange parts will work out.

And I think that the above might be very good for other worlds.

I might go at this in subsequent posts.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-02-06 19:56:35)


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#41 2022-02-07 11:12:43

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This deviates off the lately path of these posts, but is important, as I think it can apply to planets with atmospheres, perhaps Mars with dust injected, perhaps from Mars itself, or from Phobos or Deimos.  This of course is a notion to effect cloud formation on Mars.
https://phys.org/news/2022-02-tiny-atmo … egime.html

This may also support the notion:
https://www.space.com/meteor-smoke-trig … n%20clouds.

This also about high altitude clouds on Mars warming it up:
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news … arly-mars/

And then of course it would not hurt to pull extra moisture up perhaps using orbital and ground assets.  Microwaves, and mirrors.  Get the moisture up there and seed it optimally for clouds but not precipitation from them.

And that might be enough to vaporize the permanent CO2 deposits and get the mean pressure up to say 11 Millibars.  Such a pressure would make it much easier to have ice windows, or if covered, liquid water.

A possible path forward.

Elon Musk nukes might help to get moisture up there as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-07 11:17:43)


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#42 2022-02-07 11:28:45

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is what I have queried for:
How Heat pumps will revolutionize Home Heating, "EV News Daily"

But I haven't gotten that article yet.

Well, I guess I can get it on my phone, but not on my computer.  Don't know why.  Anyway, I am sure you can look stuff up yourselves if you wish.  I may listen to my phone, it only looked like an interesting article.

Anyway, for pass or fail, I am going to suggest that in the use of Heliostats with solar panels, it may be possible to have just a simple solar thermal side facing the sun, and then solar panels facing away from the sun.  Then of course Heliostats behind that to shine on the solar panels.  And then to include a heat exchanger using some kind of channels with a fluid in them to extract the heat.  At night then that also can be a radiator.

A heat pump involved is of course the interest i am intending to suggest.

And then if you could get Anti-Solar cells involved maybe good?

Granted this sounds complicated but think how complicated a Raptor engine must be.

With modern methods and innovations added, this may become practical.

And this scheme may allow the solar cells to point somewhat down, as the solar thermal side would slant to face the sun.  For Earth, this would then ensure that snow mostly does not adhere or pile onto the solar panel side.  And the Heliostats then pointing at the solar cells, might likely provide heat to melt the snow on the solar facing side.

For Mars, this configuration would reduce the amount of dust to adhere to the solar panels side, and also even if covered with dust on the sunward side, some solar heat would occur.  But of course, there will have to be robots to dust things off without damaging the equipment.

And the Heliostats will need dusting as well.  But there may be ways to repel dust????

Electrostatic dust removal:
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2021/ … r%20panels.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … lar_Panels

We don't know perhaps this conversation will have been useful to innovators of the future.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-07 11:37:49)


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#43 2022-02-08 11:19:35

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Deviating away from the main current theme of solar, I stumbled on this today.  It does seem to support the idea that Mars does not have internal convection due to stratification.  And so no magnetic dynamo.  It also suggests to me that geothermal energy for Mars should be rather different than for Earth.

https://phys.org/news/2022-02-simulate- … netic.html
Quote:

Experiments to simulate Mars' core may explain the loss of its magnetic field and oceans

I support a lot of their materials, but dispute, in part the notion that loss of magnetism, was entirely responsible for loss of oceans.  At least not entirely loss to space.

My own thinking is it reached a point of atmospheric collapse, and much went underground.

As I see it, it is likely that a young cooling Mars would have had sufficient air pressure and temperature to allow for standing water, often ice covered, but not necessarily always ice covered.  Situations where the water might have seemed warm, could be answered by bodies of water with salt gradients.  Similar to Antarctic Dry Valley lakes. Mars with a .38 gravity field would have more sluggish convection anyway.  But also having an ice layer over water would stifle waves which might mix the water.  A freeze thaw situation in the ice cover would create brine rejection on deeper freezing, day to night, season to season.  The sun being more dim than what we have in Antarctica would make it harder to see these being entirely solar in nature, but I will not rule it out, it may well be that in those early days, there was a lot of geothermal energy as well for these bodies of water.

For this to occur on Mars, in both hemispheres, it would not require that much atmosphere, at times perhaps rains fed streams, but most often I will suppose it was snowmelts.  Ice water does not require that much air pressure.

If there were things like high clouds, and also perhaps some greenhouse gasses, we could presume that often it would snow at night, when the temperatures would drop far below freezing, and then at around noon, with a thin atmosphere, but yet one thick enough for a greenhouse effect, perhaps a few hours of melting.  After all you do not have to heat up that much air, so the thermal inertia would not hold back a rise in temperature of dirty dusty snow, being warmed by sunshine.  Dirty snowbanks might melt inside of themselves, sort of their own greenhouses.

On occasion, if a big impactor happened, then things could heat up for decades, centuries, or even thousands of years, and so then rain might be more likely.

As the planet cooled, and volcanism was reduced, and indeed some atmosphere was able to float off with the solar wind, and in fact as running water and erosion would lock up more atmosphere into rocks, then the planet would have edged towards, atmospheric collapse.

And of course, the uplands, which are more to the Southern Hemisphere would be the first to not be able to support liquid water, but still snows and snow melts might be possible in the lower northern hemisphere.  So, then as things cooled then the burial of large masses of ice would occur.   

The Valles Mariana can be considered as part of the Northern Hemisphere, and the Tharsis Uplift as part of the Southern Hemisphere in this situation.

So, I think that at some point ice would collect in the northern Hemisphere, and of course in very cold spots in the Southern Hemisphere.  Wind erosion would increasingly move materials from high to low and cover the ice.  Explosive volcanism would help to bury the ice.  So, as it became increasingly hard to evapoate water vapors from ice into the atmosphere, the high-altitude clouds would be lost for the most part, but occasionally it might return, perhaps triggered by a combination of water migration due to changing tilt of the planet and perhaps an eruption, and perhaps an impactor.

It is my opinion that there could be a lot of buried clathrates in places under the surface of Mars, particularly in the Northern Hemisphere, but of course this is not given any evidence so far.  This could include CO2 and Methane, I am guessing.

------

So, much for that.

I am thinking about geothermal on Mars.  It seems to me that it may retain heat much better than it should due to a lack of convection.  Of course, then we suppose that this is why there is not a useful magnetic field.

As I recall, the rocks of Mars are more porous.
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/20 … rous-crust
Quote:

New Gravity Map Suggests Mars Has a Porous Crust

So, not only does stratification probably conserve heat, but porosity of crust may also do so.
A bit like a Styrofoam crust but of course these are rocks with significant weight even so.

t is my guess that for Mars volcanism must typically be due to the cooling of crust in certain locations.  As it would get colder and denser, it would have better chances of disruption the stratification it may sag and crack, perhaps suddenly.  Then it might be that if magma is below, it could flow up into the crack(s) and possibly emerge to the surface, or to an ice body.

It has been in my mind that for the large volcano's it may be possible that they would have a time constant, where the cone cools and shrinks, and becomes denser, and may break the rock of the crust, and so open a path.  However, it would seem that if this were true, it would have to break itself open, and fall into a soft media like a plunger, and so then to force lava up the created cracks.  But that is farfetched.  Time and investigations will tell the real truth about it.

But it might indeed create an oscillation.
1) Cone cools and shrinks.
2) A break occurs, and shatters the cone, breaking it from what is holding it to the crust.
3) If goes down like a plunger and pushed magma up the cracks in it.
4) This warms up the cone so that it can better "Float", on the denser materials below.
5) Lava in the cone cools and the cone locks back onto the crust.

This notion could use more information from reality, it may or may not be approximately associated with what really happens.  But it generates some questions that might be possible to answer, increasing understanding.

Some people or cultures do not respect the asking of questions where the one who asks might be proven wrong.  That is not the way to operate, at least not all the time.  That is playing it safe and letting others take the shrapnel for them.
A bit of a coward, a but sensible.  It depends.  Diapers.

So, if any of the sag notion can be true, and because the gravity field of Mars is .38 g, it may be possible to identify where to dig for geothermal, and it may be easier to dig deeper than we can on Earth.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-08 12:01:53)


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#44 2022-02-08 12:03:48

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Back to solar......

I previously mentioned low pressure Domes and Quonset huts.

I am now looking at Lean-Too Huts, or something like that.

https://www.wikihow.com/Build-a-Lean-to-Shed

I guess we can easily identify a floor and a roof, indicate pitch of roof, can likely see which wall is the biggest and call it the "Front" or "Big" wall.  The other smallest wall might be called the "Back" or "Small" wall, and the other two sides called the side walls.

This could be used for many worlds including Earth and Mars.  In my desires the pitch of the roof would face the sun, and if on Mars would be more likely in the Northern Hemisphere, on ice, above a body of water.  In this case, the "Back" or "Small" wall would be very small indeed, and the pitch of the roof would reach to the ground or even to the ground.

The "Front" or "Big" wall would face North in this case, if at a "Temperate" or "High" latitude in the Northern Hemisphere.

The intention would be to have methods to collect solar energy and also stabilize a water/ice window over a ice covered reservoir of water.  However, in some instances, particularly on Earth, it would not need an ice-covered body of water, and could possibly include greenhouse, activities inside of it at some times of the year.

If I have time, I will retrieve materials which could relate to this from our currently extinct member "Seadragon".  This will relate to plastic films surviving the Martian environment for a suitable period of time.

Very recently I view a post from a member indicting that his real-world experience with solar devices involved some failures, which are hard to get repaired because the devices are sealed to protect from external environmental factors.  They then need to be sent in for repairs, and there will be a time delay.  So, I am hoping that this can address that, by providing a layered environment that will allow for the devices to be more open to repairs and yet still not vulnerable to the environment.

I think that there will be an enormous number of variations of what might be done with this in various places in the solar system.

I am going to try to make a paint drawing of what I would call a "Solar Sandwich".   I am not at my normal location so we will see if I can get it published.

Pause......

It seems to have worked out nicely:
xAbKplK.png

If we are in the northern hemisphere, in the temperate zones particularly, where on Mars there seem to be significant ice deposits, by Color Code:
-Brown indicates a simple solar thermal collection surface.
-Black indicates a likely thermal collection method by way of fluids in tubes.
-yellow can indicate Solar Panels, or reflectors, whichever might please you, and as much of each as you might like.

Blue might indicate an ice-covered body of water, with "Ice-Armor" if needed.  On Earth it might simply be ground.

Pink indicates a transparency, which may or may not be included according to needs and desires.  Even on Mars there can be many variations for instance instead of that then perhaps a slab shaped balloon of ice over a body of water in the floor of this device.

For Earth or Mars, per moisture or dirt, a vertical wall of transparency may be of use, and may also hold heat, which may be desire.  So, then solar panels mounted inside of this may not need to be "Potted" as much for protection, and so might be easier to repair on site.

I am also seeking the option to better protect the transparency from early damage from things like U.V. light.

As a start, it may be possible to have mirrors on the heliostats that do not reflect as much U.V. light this might slow damage.  This device would not allow direct sunlight to shine on or into the transparency.  However, some from the ground will reflect to it, and if the mirrors get dirty, some may then reflect from the Heliostats.  That is an unknown value of damage.  Some creatures groom themselves or are groomed by other moving entities.  So, the Heliostats will likely need to be self-grooming, or have robots to groom them to rid them of dust.

I believe that Seadragon might have something that is wanted here, I will see if I can get it.

Pause.....

OK, here it is, per SeaDragon:
Index» Human missions» Construction technology for Mars?
Post #167
Quote:

SeaDragon
Banned
From: Merry Old England
Registered: 2020-07-25
Posts: 32
Email
louis,

Casey Handmer is amazing but I'd like to add a technical fix to that fluorine access problem for ETFE.

The call for ETFE is based on the impression that UV damage would destroy other types of plastic which is not necessarily true - it's mostly the production of oxygen based free radicals that causes the issue (for quick reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photo-oxi … f_polymers. If you can stop oxygen from inside diffusing into the plastic then UV degradation is greatly reduced and the inclusion of hindered amine light stabilisers (HALS) as copolymers, even making up as little as 0.25% of the total plastic, this can be greatly reduced yet further.

So:
- With a thin layer of something like poly(ethyl vinyl alcohol), usually written EVOH, the majority of oxygen transmission into a plastic habitat skin can be stopped
- A small amount of HALS copolymers stops initial free radical compounds made just after UV absorption in the plastic from propagating and leads to spectacular decreases in corrosion rates before any oxygen that does get through can make things worse.

With these fixes we can just use PET or a similarly cheap and easily produced plastic with no crazy elements like fluorine needed at all.
If we reinforce with basalt fibre (very nearly as good as Keflar but far far cheaper than Keflar) instead of Keflar or equivalent we'd be able to build this sort of thing at an industrial scale using only the resources we have on hand + a few low mass imported extras like HALS copolymers, accounting for perhaps 400 tonnes of plastic per 1 tonne of HALS or something.

Last edited by SeaDragon (2020-08-01 09:14:35)

So, it seems that it is U.V. light in an Earth atmosphere which is a large part of the trouble.  For Mars the atmosphere is different, and possibly the interior of this device could be filled with inert gasses to make things even better.

As I have said, the possible variations on this and intentions can be very different so changes in structure would follow needs and wants.

In the case of mid-latitude Mars over an ice slab/meltwater, I am thinking you want solar power both electric and thermal, and you might want to reflect photons through an ice or cold liquid water window to promote photosyntheis.

The black layer indicates the potential to extract heat, and also cool the solar panels for greater efficiency, and it also could be a radiator at times as well if there was a desire for that.  Heat pumps or circulation pumps could be involved.

Also, for the color code brown or the side walls you could include Anti-Solar cells.

That should be plenty.

I am actually hoping that this method could expand the use of solar energy to more places in North America and around the world.  Maybe it could.  We may see.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-11 12:14:53)


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#45 2022-02-08 20:32:50

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, due to having an atmosphere and so weather, both Earth and Mars are on the complicated end of things per solar power.  I have already indicated that I also favor Nuclear Fission for Mars, and of course we already have it for Earth.

The Moon has very predictable solar power, but long nights in most places, and perhaps a lack of organic chemicals in quantities desired.

Phobos and Deimos are tiny, but predictable energy.

Callisto and Ganymede are way out there for solar energy, but of course are in their own gravity wells, and that of Jupiter.
Lots of mirrors needed to get a good heat or solar flux.

Jupiter Trojans are out there, but not of a similar gravity well problem.

But best perhaps could be the Main belt.

At one point Ceres seemed to be the best deal, and it would be a good deal, the days are short so of course the nights are short.  The poles are such that you might get by with less need for range of motion for Heliostats.

Then I came to understand that Vesta is likely covered in asteroid dust which likely contains hydrated minerals and Carbonaceous materials, so it is not just volcanic Basalt.

Then I thought about 16 Psyche.  Seems likely that it might be similarly covered in asteroid dust.  But that lead to.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_Lutetia
There are pictures of it.
It is small and sort of metallic and sort of covered by 3 km or ~>10,000 feet of dust, that also being a mix of asteroid dust.

It's size is about: 30.40 miles

More pictures, I guess:
https://www.planetary.org/articles/2579

https://sci.esa.int/web/rosetta/-/47389-21-lutetia
Is this the day length? Quote

Sidereal rotation period (h)    8.168270 (from Carry et al., 2010)

I just wanted to think about this one.  Solar energy should be extremely predictable.

I am also thinking that the thick regolith would allow harpoons to anchor very likely.  And to put habitats underground, and out into a disk around the asteroid.  Metals, perhaps, and all the organics.  Ceres is a good location, but this one would not require much effort to launch off of, I should think.  Also, to go there and land would not require much landing propellants.

This may not be the best one, but it sure is interesting.

It may be true that many asteroids have a layer of asteroid/comet dust, with metals and organics.  This seems to me to be a good thing.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-08 21:01:39)


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#46 2022-02-09 10:03:11

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, I have been thinking more on this and now do have a greater interest in 16 Psyche for many reasons.

I guess I am seeing that main belt asteroids may be a very high priority beyond the Moon and Mars.  I think a lot of other people have concluded that before me.

I liked this article:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 135741.htm
Quote:

UArizona undergraduate student David Cantillo is lead author of a new paper published in The Planetary Science Journal that proposes 16 Psyche is 82.5% metal, 7% low-iron pyroxene and 10.5% carbonaceous chondrite that was likely delivered by impacts from other asteroids. Cantillo and his collaborators estimate that 16 Psyche's bulk density -- also known as porosity, which refers to how much empty space is found within its body -- is around 35%.

The above quote says a lot.

So, if in part at least a rubble pile, and porosity of 35%, I am imagining that it may include some large caverns inside of it.  I could be wrong, but if it has big chunks of metal rubble along with Carbonaceous remnants, then perhaps at least one major collision between two asteroids, and leaving behind these items.

I find it hard to understand why any caverns between big chunks of rock would not fill with smaller rubble.  Investigation must tell what really is.

Here is the Wiki for it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_Psyche

So, there is a whole lot of "Don't know" about this one.

But I have been thinking that it "May" be a better option than Ceres for several reasons, not just the metals.

If it has a blanket of dust, like 21 Lutetia, that is interesting.  It may well be considered a partially processed ore.
You would not have to crush it, it already is somewhat crushed.  As it may include materials collected from other asteroids and comets, it may contain metals, and organic chemicals that would be valuable and useful.

Perhaps there could be a "Goldie Lox" size for asteroids also.  This one would not have as much gravity as Ceres, but perhaps just enough that things could be anchored to it.  Anchoring could include Harpoons, anchors on big chunks of rock, and perhaps magnetism.  Since it likely has lots of Iron and Nickle, it should be possible to use an electromagnet to make a built structure stay on its surface.

Tunneling into the pore spaces, which may include a thick blanket of dust and rocks, and also possibly void spaces between large chunks of rock would be useful.  But also, I think that this world might allow you to not only have space elevators, but space towers, perhaps an equatorial disk of structures that could rise above it.

The magnetic fields might help to anchor this and would also possibly have radiation protective qualities.  But of course, there should be lots of shielding materials, as the dust/rocks being partially carbonaceous, should stop radiation.  Unpressurized tanks of it could be used to protect human occupied habitats and gardens.  Solar power should be very predictable.  Certainly, also large tanks of water without spin gravity could also be used.  Those then being suitable for aquaculture.  Depending on the type of aquaculture, the internal pressure of these tanks might possibly be rather low.
Ice water does not need that much pressurization.  But that is a "Might".

So, for these reasons, I think it might be better for the Finns to imagine their mega-satellite for this world rather than Ceres.

https://trendywnauce.pl/en/life-on-a-me … ing-ceres/

https://savedelete.com/news/mega-satell … es/391592/

This one has illustrations: smile
https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres

OK, I just did this with a minimum of effort.  Seems like it is possibly on a path to usefulness.  Such things might be incorporated into an asteroid based space structure.  Obviously, I have not shown all the protective measures against impactors that would be desired.  Also, I have not shown how sunlight would enter this "Sea".

But it might be a stimulant for imaginations.

BMVeChf.png

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-09 10:43:45)


Done.

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#47 2022-02-09 19:30:34

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is just me goofing around with an idea for a spin gravity habitat:
gdbmidz.png

The notion is the grey cylinder spins, but the black one is anchored to a framework associated with an asteroid.

That way there is less problem with gyroscopic effects.  Further, the black cylinder may have heavy radiation shielding on it which will not be centrifuged.

Entrance A could be the input from a mirror system, but of course then that requires high temperature windows, perhaps Alon.  The "B" entrance could be able to access an entire network of such habitats should the connections be provided, and without the need to use an airlock, but of course it would be prudent to have airtight doors that could close in emergencies.

The Void between the Black and Grey cylinders could be pumped to a greater partial vacuum, to facilitate even 1 g spin.  The Void needs to be small enough that if the grey cylinder leaks, the pressure drop will not seriously affect humans or pets.

Of course, there have to be seals to keep the pressure inside of the grey cylinder higher than the Void space.  And I suspect that magnetic bearings such as for high-speed rail would be used.

So, I am thinking that an asteroid like 16 Psyche would have so many metals that it would be possible to build an entire web of habitats inside the asteroid and outside of it.  And the possibility that you could travel from habitat to habitat, under normal conditions and not have to use airlocks although you might pass through them.  They would be there to seal off damaged sections is necessary.  But with a double hull(s), the danger from impactors would be limited.  Also, the Black cylinder would have a lot of radiation protection attached to it, and so impactors would have to deal with it before they could penetrate.  Even then the grey cylinder walls might still hold the air well enough for a time, to allow evacuation.

Metal type asteroids might have some Nitrogen, as they seem to be coated in dust that might have some of it.  But if not, perhaps Ceres could sell Nitrogen to them for processed metals.

And then I am beginning to think that to go to the next step outward, which would be the Trojan Asteroids, these mega structures would build huge world ships that the solar wind perhaps could push out there over time.  And these could be both solar and fission powered.

The Trojans may have Ammonia, and so Nitrogen, or perhaps Carbonaceous materials with Nitrogen.  They could still do a lot of solar as orbital mirrors can be very light and big.  But maybe they would get into Fission big time also.

From there then a path to Callisto and maybe Ganymede.  From there to Saturn and it's moons. By that time perhaps fusion power along with Fission.  Just maybe Solar for a bit as well, even out there.

It is an attempt.  Something to play with.

Hope smile

Done.

And yes, it can use some more work.  For instance, I would like to swivel the whole double cylinder to follow the sun, but that may be a problem to maintain pressurized pathways.  I haven't got that figured well yet.

Now I am done.

Actually, no I am not done.

I am thinking that this assembly of habitations could be huge, to intercept the maximum amount of sunlight, sort of a very, very early move in the direction of a Dyson Sphere.  Yes, I did borrow from the Finns.  Also borrow from Elon Musk as I think that we will never build an entire Dyson Sphere, but it would not hurt to intercept more of the sun's output.

Hmmm....Is that a start of terraforming the sun?  Or the Solar system itself?

How big a solar collector collection could you build with all that asteroid material(s)?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-19 20:41:46)


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#48 2022-02-10 12:31:44

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Per the last post, I am thinking that an assembly like the Finns have worked on, free floating would be nice.  They did identify the need for Nitrogen, which is a big thing.  So, now I am thinking that while the asteroid itself could have a lot of devices including spin gravity, and towers/space elevators, it might be best to provide for free floating assemblies to dock with such towers.  Perhaps if at the poles?  Then a sun following swivel action for the free-floating collections could be provided for.  So, you would not want much gravity, and the tower might need to reach quite far out.

So, then collections of habitats could dock with each other periodically if deemed useful to do so.

A possible source of Nitrogen could be Venus, or the Trojans, maybe the icy moons of Jupiter and beyond.

Anyway, I like the idea to just pass within a collection of habitats without active use of airlocks and spacesuits.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-10 12:33:09)


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#49 2022-02-10 12:33:39

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

It seems Proxima Centauri has another planet. (Oops! World).

https://phys.org/news/2022-02-planet-st … t-sun.html
Quote:

New planet detected around star closest to the Sun

A team of astronomers using the European Southern Observatory's Very Large Telescope (ESO's VLT) in Chile have found evidence of another planet orbiting Proxima Centauri, the closest star to our Solar System. This candidate planet is the third detected in the system and the lightest yet discovered orbiting this star. At just a quarter of Earth's mass, the planet is also one of the lightest exoplanets ever found.


"The discovery shows that our closest stellar neighbor seems to be packed with interesting new worlds, within reach of further study and future exploration," explains João Faria, a researcher at the Instituto de Astrofísica e Ciências do Espaço, Portugal and lead author of the study published today in Astronomy & Astrophysics. Proxima Centauri is the closest star to the sun, lying just over four light-years away.

The newly discovered planet, named Proxima d, orbits Proxima Centauri at a distance of about four million kilometers, less than a tenth of Mercury's distance from the sun. It orbits between the star and the habitable zone—the area around a star where liquid water can exist at the surface of a planet—and takes just five days to complete one orbit around Proxima Centauri.

The star is already known to host two other planets: Proxima b, a planet with a mass comparable to that of Earth that orbits the star every 11 days and is within the habitable zone, and candidate Proxima c, which is on a longer five-year orbit around the star.

Proxima b was discovered a few years ago using the HARPS instrument on ESO's 3.6-meter telescope. The discovery was confirmed in 2020 when scientists observed the Proxima system with a new instrument on ESO's VLT that had greater precision, the Echelle SPectrograph for Rocky Exoplanets and Stable Spectroscopic Observations (ESPRESSO). It was during these more recent VLT observations that astronomers spotted the first hints of a signal corresponding to an object with a five-day orbit. As the signal was so weak, the team had to conduct follow-up observations with ESPRESSO to confirm that it was due to a planet, and not simply a result of changes in the star itself.

"After obtaining new observations, we were able to confirm this signal as a new planet candidate," Faria says. "I was excited by the challenge of detecting such a small signal and, by doing so, discovering an exoplanet so close to Earth."

At just a quarter of the mass of Earth, Proxima d is the lightest exoplanet ever measured using the radial velocity technique, surpassing a planet recently discovered in the L 98-59 planetary system. The technique works by picking up tiny wobbles in the motion of a star created by an orbiting planet's gravitational pull. The effect of Proxima d's gravity is so small that it only causes Proxima Centauri to move back and forth at around 40 centimeters per second (1.44 kilometers per hour).

"This achievement is extremely important," says Pedro Figueira, ESPRESSO instrument scientist at ESO in Chile. "It shows that the radial velocity technique has the potential to unveil a population of light planets, like our own, that are expected to be the most abundant in our galaxy and that can potentially host life as we know it."

"This result clearly shows what ESPRESSO is capable of and makes me wonder about what it will be able to find in the future," Faria adds.

ESPRESSO's search for other worlds will be complemented by ESO's Extremely Large Telescope (ELT), currently under construction in the Atacama Desert, which will be crucial to discovering and studying many more planets around nearby stars.

This research was presented in the paper "A candidate short-period sub-Earth orbiting Proxima Centauri" to appear in Astronomy & Astrophysics.

So, at this point, I suppose it is likely to be tidal locked, and no appreciable atmosphere.  I hope so.

So, 1/4th the mass of Earth.  Mars, I think is 0.107 the mass of Earth so ~1/10th.

The planet would be hard to land on if no atmosphere, but easy to launch from.  The one in the habitable zone might be even worse as it is large, and also may not have an atmosphere.

I am guessing that if tidal locked, lots of ices on the dark side of the planet, perhaps 40% of the planet icy?

If I recall, highly active red dwarf stars may create magma oceans on the day side, under the crust.  And also maybe there is tidal heating with planet b?  Don't know.

If what I have supposed could be true, then lots of energy, and lots of chemical distribution.

I guess another take-away is that it may be that they will discover many more small planets with their new technique.

I would like it if they could discover a cold terrestrial around any Centauri Star, A, B, or Proxima.

That far out it may not be tidal locked.  And so magnetic field and more remote from the star.

I recall an old article, indicating that an Earth like planet, with 1/10th the solar heat as our planet might still be able to generate a warm surface.  The logic is that the greenhouse gas situation would adjust itself to provide for running water.  Some limiting factors could be:
-They felt that any further out, and the atmosphere would have to be so thick that it would have too many clouds/mists to let the light in.
-There just may not be enough volatile materials for such an atmosphere.
-There would be a problem of "Snowball Earth?".  That is CO2 might freeze out at the poles, and perhaps the planet could never thaw out.
Not sure about that.

The way this would work, volcanism would keep inflating the atmosphere up to the point that a greenhouse effect could melt water.  At that point chemistry would limit the expansion of the atmosphere.

I am guessing that 1/10th the luminosity of the sun is pushing it.  For us Mars is at the outer edge of the proclaimed habitable zone, so ~1/2 our solar flux.

But I am guessing that 1/4 or even perhaps 1/8th luminosity might work sometimes for some terrestrials.

-------

Typically, I very much doubt that humans could reach Proxima's worlds.  However perhaps with Orion propulsion, and robots, and artificial wombs, and of course human germ line cells, it might be possible someday.  Possible is enough for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-10 12:54:22)


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#50 2022-02-11 08:56:25

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,047

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Just because it is fun to think of, I will continue just a bit about interstellar possibilities for worlds.

If something from Earth were to travel to Proxima Centauri, I am thinking that a world like Ceres might be desirable, preferably outside of the "Habitable Zone".  If it were tidal locked, then it would be easy to put concentrating mirrors on it's sun side for energy.  The dark part would likely retain a lot of volatile materials.

A favorite imagined world of mine in the past would be a water world, hopefully with more shallow oceans, that was tidal locked.

So then on the sun side, again concentrating mirrors out on the ice you would have that option and also to dig radiation shelters in the floating ice.  Hopefully you could mine the oceans bottom, and of course travel through the ocean.  Such a world could of course have an atmosphere, we hope.

A tidal locked world, which also currently interests me would small, and well inside the habitable zone.  Let's suppose a cross between Europa and Io.

Such a world would be heated by the sunlight on its "Day" side, and by radioactive decay.  It might also have tidal heating.  And the solar flares might heat magma oceans on the day side, under the crust.  Significant atmosphere would likely not be an option.  However, on the night side, perhaps ~40% of this world, could accumulate ice.  And if sufficient heat were to pass into the rock under the ice, there might be an ice-covered ocean(s).  If such a world did exist, then interstellar travelers might find such a small world worth starting with.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-11 12:15:08)


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