New Mars Forums

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,137

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

To be fair, I guess it should be further studied the dangers of plastics, as the truth will set you free: https://www.theguardian.com/environment … dy-plastic

I will accept fair minded study.  But will be suspicious of "Movements" that involve self important crusaders who really should be given a better outlet for their inherited or induced psychological needs.

True study of plastics in the bodies of water we utilize, may indicate best practices.  I don't think it is reasonable to adopt a fanatic no-plastics stance.  Obviously dumping plastic waste into the oceans is completely wrong.

To make water filled underwater greenhouses, perhaps some types of plastics would be less harmful than others.  That would be good to know for places like Mars as well, as I feel the devices will be useful there.

Here is a notion of a self-propelled robotic greenhouse, underwater:

Possibly something like this could exist in an ocean Gyre, hovering below the waves and storms.

Solar cells will not be high preforming and would need to be in a dry bag, I expect, but this could work.  Or if there are waves perhaps it could pull some energy from them. 

I have shown a small amount of air in the top, but unlike Nemos gardens, this would try to have a neutral buoyancy.

The schemes could be many.  Salt water outside, fresh water inside (Fresh water floats), or the inverse, or the same type of water inside or outside.  In some schemes the bag would be closed and not have an inlet and outlet that this drawing shows.

You might grow many things inside of it, at the moment I am contemplating macroalgae.

Hydrilla is generally frowned upon.  But let's say you have a bag of it in the dead sea.  You distilled fresh water from the dead sea, and filled a bag.  Now there are few animals that may damage the bag, as it is submerged and the salt is unfriendly to most life.

Hydrilla is not going to take up residence in the dead sea, but you should keep it away from the mouth of fresh water rivers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrilla

I don't know how permeable plastic can be.  I would expect many situations.  If not too permeable then you don't lose much of the water in the bag so your makeup water may not be too much in quantity.

https://seagrant.oregonstate.edu/sites/ … 100913.pdf
Quote:

Can be eaten by humans
Hydrilla is a freshwater aquatic plant that can be eaten by humans. It is dried and processed to remove the water content, making it an edible powder12. There are no special requirements for processing Hydrilla before it can be consumed, and no known health risks associated with eating it2. Hydrilla has a bland taste but is high in calcium, iron, and vitamin B-12, so it can be dried, powdered, and used as a vitamin supplement3.

And so, this might be done on Mars, if we made our own Dead Sea there.

Don Juan Pond:
https://www.amusingplanet.com/2014/09/d … er-on.html

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/don-juan-pond

Quote:

https://antarcticsun.usap.gov/science/4 … renheit%29.

Minus 50 degrees Celsius (-58 Fahrenheit)
Though only about twice the area of an Olympic-sized swimming pool, and barely a foot deep, Don Juan Pond is famous for being the saltiest body of water on the entire planet. Its waters are so saturated with salt that it doesn’t fully freeze unless the temperatu...
A Chemical Detective Story: Why is Don Juan Pond So Salty? - Anta…
antarcticsun.usap.gov/science/4362/
antarcticsun.usap.gov/science/4362/

https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

At -50 then the vapor pressure would be 0.0577 mbar, very much less than the 5.5 average on Mars.

Looking back at this post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 77#p221877

I think that -50 would be extreme, I think the conditions of the "Dead Sea" could be more moderate.  Of course, I expect the thing to be domed over, but at times when the outside humidity was high at night it might be possible in some way to extract moisture from the air to get it into the "Dead Sea".

Anyway, I have been over this stuff before in different ways.  I think that farming like this could be done on Earth and other worlds as well, perhaps Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-16 13:53:52)

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Done.

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,137

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

OK let's consider the Earth.  Let's suppose that due to global warming, we have to prop things up somehow, to squeak by and gradually bring things back.

What I will suggest is radical.

Let's put solar farms on the poles.  Send the power up by microwaves, and the bounce it back down to users.  Granted there will be two stages of loss, but this is to help the poles stay cold.

In the case of the Antarctic, if ports can be kept open then the idea would be to involve the coastal ecosystems the least amount possible.

In the case of Canada more or less you have some islands, and some floating ice.

In both cases you may have light bouncing off of reflective surfaces into your vertical solar panels.  Granted, this may bring heat to lower in the atmosphere, but it also will shade the surface ices and snows.

And to a small degree the equipment will be drawing heat off of the ice into the air at night and in the winters.

You may be able to cause glaciers to grow, as you may prohibit, melting and evaporation.

Perhaps if you could make the solar panels reflect unused light into the sky, instead of converting it to heat, you would gain cold.

Of course, each polar installation would only operate in parts of the year, but of course they are in opposing time slots.

I think these would need to be robotic so that they could step up on top of accumulating ice.  The Arctic ice flows might be particularly tricky.

I forgot about Greenland.  You could stop the surface melts of ice in the interior I may suppose.  Adding shade, and also transmitting significant portions of the sunlight as microwaves to relay satellites in the sky.

Tricky but possible, I think.  Easier in the land masses than on the sea ice.  I suppose that in the case of Greenland you might use some of the power locally to run robotic factories dug into the ice.  That could be profitable.

I think that Greenland or Canada could run a pilot project somewhere.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-18 11:20:17)

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Done.

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,137

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Going a bit further, the largest risk may be water tables in the ice masses.

This video loads slow for me, but talks about it: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ajaxhist=0
Quote:

Greenland ice lakes drain at speed of Niagara Falls
YouTube
New Scientist
312.2K views
Apr 17, 2008

And this description may apply to permafrost bottomed lakes and seas which might be created on other worlds: https://www.whoi.edu/press-room/news-re … ake-drain/

If the ice under the body of water has less average weight than the liquid above it this could happen.

But I think that quite often the permafrost under a lake may be "Dirty" with dust, sand, and rocks in it, so I speculate that a bottom rupture is not likely then.

If the global warming alarmists turn out to be correct and melting like this threatens to lubricate ice in any of the ice caps, then I suggest some interventions may be possible and perhaps even profitable.

We have to be suspicious of the "People Farmers", the Fascists and the Communists/Socialists.  I believe I see evidence that they have use the climate issue to cause turmoil, also they may be promoting the deindustrialization of the west to weaken it for conquest or simply to make it impotent as a competitor.  Probably this is a real factor.

But climate problems may also be serious, so it would be good to have tools to manage the problem if it indeed become too large a problem.

I think that the method could be the opposite of tucking heat: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10756

"Index» Terraformation» Tucking Heat as a Para Terraform method."

The raw materials that may exist on top of an ice cap can be water, CO2, Sunlight, and Wind.

If you shade the ice that may melt, and also perhaps reflect some of the light back into space, you may reduce melting.  If you were to capture some of the sunlight energy and make Hydrocarbon fuels with it you also take some of the energy away from the melt and store it in the created fuels.

If you reduce melting obviously more ice mass is retained, but also you take away some of the lubricant that is supposed to assist the ice to slide downhill towards the sea.

If you make Hydrocarbons, and then ship them away from the ice, then that heat may be released later in locations away from the ice, and in particular it may be consumed in the winter, when melting is not a danger.

I suggest animated solar panels, with legs and computer brains.  These solar panels may also have a layer above them that reflects wavelengths out into space that cannot produce electricity.

I believe that in most cases, melting occurs after the sunlight has passed through ice, and then that darkens, the surface.

One trick would be to put fresh white snow over such spots.

Another would be to have robots build domes of snow, with holes for ventilation.  The hope here would be to encourage air to flow though these and so disperse the heat to the air above the ice cap.

Now, I have tried to get a solution that also may give material gain to humans.  But you may expect that the

"People Farmers", the Fascists and the Communists/Socialists

will try to bend it into a burden that may even be silly.  Such as using electricity to extract CO2 from the air, without creating a material benefit.  Remember that they want to break down the common people so that the common people can become their livestock, from which they can extract power and wealth and exercise cruelty over.

In locations where ice was relatively stable it might also be possible to install greenhouses on stilts, to grow food.  Remember "Midnight Sun", so, a source of sunlight for perhaps 4 months out of the year that was sufficient to warm the greenhouses.

Here again, you might put a reflective coating on the glaze, to reject unusable wavelengths back into the sky.

Many of these things could apply to Mars, but you would most likely want to capture and tuck heat in those ice caps.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-04-25 10:31:57)

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Done.

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,137

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Turning back to Mars, there are some strange things that go into our heads it seems.

We have had these stupid binary arguments, or I think Isaac Arthur calls the "Circular Firing Squads".

1) Mars against the Moon.

2) O'Neill cylinders against surface colonies.  Some of us can conceive of orbital habitats associated with Earth/Moon, but not Mars.

3) The poles of Mars are too cold to settle in, but then we want settlements on Callisto.

1) Well, it is becoming obvious that if you have a "Starship" or the equivalent, then it makes sense to access both Mars "AND" the Moon.

2) O'Neill cylinders were a good try in their time, but newer notions are available.  People can conceive of such in the Earth/Moon orbits, where you have to get your solids from the Moon to a large extent, and your fluids from the Earth.  But they cannot latch onto the idea that you could get your solids from Phobos and Deimos, and a whole spectrum of materials from Mars.

Some people talk about orbital mirrors to terraform Mars, but they don't think about orbital habitats for the Mars/Phobos/Deimos subsystem.

3) Seeing #2, then the settlement of the polar areas of Mars becomes more sensible.  That seems to be where much of the water and CO2 can be had. 

I think that nuclear is likely the most reliable first power source for a Mars settlement, but later it may make sense to have both orbital and surface solar power.

If you have that then you can "Tuck Heat": https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10756

And that allows canals and ponds, and lakes and Seas.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-25 10:50:56)

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Done.

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,137

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is timely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RQPFnWxrwg
Quote:

ENERGY BREAKTHROUGH: Synthetic Natural Gas From Sunlight And Air

Over The Horizon
1.53K subscribers

And Calliban provided this: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 60#p222360
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas … ction.html
Quote:

Shale Gas Reactor Could Saves Millions in Propylene Production
By Brian Westenhaus - Apr 25, 2024, 3:00 PM CDT
New chemical reactor efficiently makes propylene from shale gas.
Hydrogen gas separation allows for higher propane pressures and more propylene production.
A plant producing 500,000 metric tons of propylene annually could save as much as $23.5 million using this method.

So, having another look at the Earth's polar ice caps, then if indeed sea levels may start to rise (Actually), then it may pay to inhibit ice melting.  After all, then that reduces the speed that ice would slide into the oceans.  The land conserved from flooding would be worth quite a lot.

How this service might be paid for, is a question.  I guess those cities that were in danger of flooding, would have an interest in promoting it.

Are Sea Levels rising?  https://www.climate.gov/news-features/u … -sea-level
Quote:

Global Web Icon
Climate.gov
https://www.climate.gov/.../understandi … /climate-…
Climate Change: Global Sea Level | NOAA Climate.gov
Global average sealevel has risen 8–9 inches (21–24 centimeters) since 1880. In 2022, global average sealevel set a new record high—101.2 mm (4 inches) above 1993 levels.

So, maybe there will be an economic case.  It does not mattery why the sea level is rising, but if you reduce melting it may be worthwhile.

But then of course the materials of this post may be important for Mars.

Done

I looked this up: https://techcrunch.com/2024/04/01/terra … tural-gas/  Quote:

Climate
Terraform Industries converts electricity and air into synthetic natural gas for the first time
Aria Alamalhodaei@breadfrom / 12:05 PM CDT•April 1, 2024

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-26 13:09:12)

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Done.

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,137

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is interesting, it might provide a way to influence where snows would fall on Mars, presuming a slightly warmer planet: https://phys.org/news/2024-05-climate-c … ously.html
Quote:

MAY 1, 2024

Editors' notes
New climate study shows cloud cover is easier to affect than previously thought
by Technical University of Denmark)

I have read previously that if the CO2 of the ice caps was vaporized snows would be possible.

Done.

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 09:30:02)

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Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,137

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I was short on time in the previous post, so I will add some text for it.

In a partly terraformed Mars, where perhaps the average surface pressure was doubled, control of nucleation dust may help to redistribute water on the planet.  Also, of course greenhouse gasses, and added heat from orbit may help.

Sources of dust to inject might be from Phobos, Deimos, or even. Mars.

As for Mars, it might be desirable to try to inhibit nucleation dust in some locations, if a method can be found.

At the present tilt of the planet, water will tend to move to the poles as frost or snow.

But with dust controls it might be possible to bias the flow towards lower latitudes as per nucleation.

With greenhouse gasses, I believe it warms the poles more than the equator.

And power satellites and mirrors in orbit could also assist in the future hydrology of Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 15:02:46)

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