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#251 2021-10-16 20:16:42

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,088

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

For GW Johnson,

We have a standing invitation to give a talk for the North Houston chapter of the National Space Society.

You can see the quality of the talks at their web site: www.northhoustonspace.org.

If you would like for me to inquire about a date, I would be happy to do that.

Their meetings are on the First Saturday of the month, at 2 PM Houston time.

Zoom format should be fine.  You have images that would work well as slides, and you can create text slides from your proposal as appropriate.

This is a friendly audience, with a high proportion of informed members.  I would expect the group leader would be interested in the proposal.

(th)

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#252 2021-10-16 20:25:10

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,903

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

Those could include the foot print as well as the other toppling diagrams which we found for not having a wide enough base between pads as to why the mission is being proposed to answer.
Falcon 9 landing leg spread versus the pin shocks that are on starship.

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#253 2021-10-17 10:11:03

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 4,700
Website

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

The rocket vehicle topple-over (that invariably leads to explosion) has been documented since the V-2 effort at Peenemunde in the early 1940's.  I just saw in a forwarded video from a friend the same thing happening to one of the DC-X prototypes in the mid 1990's.  It was almost a duplicate in terms of effect.

Spacenut,  the diagram about weight vector inside "footprint" that you want is posted on "exrocketman" in one of the Starship reverse-engineering articles I posted.  I don't know off the top of my head which one.  One of the later ones,  and it also takes on the surface bearing strength issue. 

Let me think about a Powerpoint version of our lander proposal,  and those topple-over and bearing strength issues in the posting.  There's also images of the typical test setups online that the civil engineers use at construction sites to test bearing strength.  Cannot promise anything quickly. 

I know how to insert images onto Powerpoint charts,  but I know nothing about inserting videos,  or any of the other fancy stuff.  But the videos of the V-2 and DC-X topple-overs would make the point quite well,  I think. 

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2021-10-17 10:13:46)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#254 2021-10-17 10:15:09

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,088

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

For GW Johnson .... you can test drive your presentation on the Gather.Town facility.

Please note that the NewMars Gather.Town facility does not yet show you as registered.

I suspect that you need to go through the setup process one or two more times, until the admissions software is satisfied.

When the process is working correctly, and if you use the same laptop to log in, you will be admitted automatically.

I suspect (but don't know for sure) that the software sets a cookie on your laptop to expedite your access to the service.

(th)

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#255 2021-10-17 10:18:43

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,088

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

Now that the presentation on Mars Society 2021 by RobertDyck is part of the record of the Conference, I am ready to start moving again in setting up the video conference capability for the Lander Team.

GW Johnson has completed the initial phase of set up.  As soon as the system confirms he is a full fledged "member", I will extend invitations to other team members.

We have a new application for membership in the forum.

We may decide to admit this person to the Lander Team meeting site.

I'm tossing that idea out now so it won't be a surprise if I propose it later.

(th)

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#256 2021-10-17 10:40:43

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 4,700
Website

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

Spacenut:

The perspective topple-over diagram you seek is Figure 20,  near the end of "Reverse-Engineering the 2019 Version of the Spacex Starship/Superheavy Design",  posted 22 October 2019 on my "exrocketman site.  This was for the 6-legged designs we saw flying at that time.  Two of those legs 0.55 m deep into a wash is enough to topple Starship as we knew it then.  7 degrees of tilt was enough.

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#257 2021-10-18 11:36:23

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,088

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

Update 2021/10/18 at 13:33 local time....

First, thanks (again) to SpaceNut for putting together a set of links to study before calling deltion.ca

Second, when I visited the web site I found an additional name on the contact page, so I decided to try:

Left message for Sherry Schmidt
Project Management
705 824 1500 x22

I asked if the letter from Dr. Johnson had arrived, and added the context of looking for equipment for a proposal.

(th)

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#258 2021-10-18 18:24:43

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,088

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

This is for kbd512 and GW Johnson ...

It appears that the Zoom invitation I sent to each of you expired when I closed my first test session.

I watched a YouTube video about how to set up a Zoom session that persists, and since I know it is possible, I should be able to learn how to do do it.  In the ** mean ** time, while we wait for that we have a couple of possibilities...

1) kbd512, if you already know how to set up a permanent/persistent Zoom meeting, please let us know.

2) For either ... I can set up a temporary Zoom meeting at a time we agree upon (we can use UTC for common reference.

(th)

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#259 2021-10-19 10:31:55

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,088

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

Update for GW Johnson...

I left another voicemail for Project Manager Sherry Schmidt at Deltion.

This time I left your email address in hopes they would write you to confirm if your letter arrived (or not).

I'll keep this up as long as necessary.

(th)

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#260 2021-10-19 18:39:57

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 4,700
Website

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

I heard from Jim Richard at Deltion.ca by email today.  He said he got the hardcopy letter,  and wished to chat with me.  I have replied,  and forwarded a copy of that reply to you by email.  We are trying to arrange such a phone conversation "soon". 

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#261 2021-10-19 18:59:18

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,088

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

For GW Johnson re #260

Thanks for this ** very ** helpful GOOD News!  I'll stop calling << grin >>

***
Best wishes for success with your conversation! 

(th)

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#262 2021-10-19 21:54:51

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,088

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

For Lander Team members

GW Johnson is in contact with Deltion.

I have completed successful testing of Zoom hosting, and believe I can provide hosting services if Dr. Johnson needs to call a meeting.

I am satisfied that he is able to participate in Zoom meetings, because he and Mrs. Johnson frequently hold Zoom meetings with family and friends.

I would like to hear from each of the remaining team members, to be sure that if a meeting is called, each of us is ready.

For RobertDyck ... your participation in the Mars Society Conference may well have been done with Zoom.  in any case, I am confident you are familiar with the tool.  Please let me know otherwise.

For kbd512 ... you were the member who first suggested online meetings, so I am confident you would be comfortable with Zoom. However, to cover all bases, please let me know otherwise.

For SpaceNut ... your laptop has given you some challenges in the not too distant past, and I have no way of knowing if Zoom works on your laptop.  I'd be happy to help you test Zoom on your laptop if you would like to do that.  I'd like to be certain that each of us is ready and able to participate in a meeting if Dr. Johnson calls one.

(th)

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#263 2021-10-20 07:49:54

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,920

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

tahanson43206,

Zoom is fine with me.

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#264 2021-10-20 08:57:16

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,088

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

For kbd512 re #263

Thanks for your confirmation!

If the conversation between Dr. Johnson and Deltion goes well, there is a chance there might be a need to plan new actions in a near time frame.

The launch date for a set of engineering probes is NOT changing.  If we (Lander Team) are going to pull this off, we need to be securing commitments from major players relatively soon.  GW Johnson did NOT think it is possible to meet the 2022 launch target.  I'm not willing to give up without exhausting every option, so I invite everyone to keep reins on your doubts.  Let's see what we might be able to accomplish.

There is a ** lot ** of talent and capability in the primary team, and there is plenty more of both in the forum.

***
Looking for confirmation from RobertDyck ... Zoom works for you?  (I'm trusting that is the case, but confirmation would be helpful)

***
Need to work with you SpaceNut ... I'd like to begin by confirming you can run Zoom on your laptop?

(th)

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#265 2021-10-21 16:29:28

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 4,700
Website

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

I made definite contact with Jim Richard at Deltion in Canada,  and sent him a copy of draft 9 of the proposal.  He confirmed he got it,  and we will talk Monday sometime,  after he has a chance to look at it.  They have a version of the drill that goes down 5 m. 

I have been having exactly the same problem with emails to Deltion in Canada that I had with RobertDyck in Canada.  Stupid Google's gmail deletes any message received from Canada,  plus the messages I sent there,  without telling me that it did so.  Two different servers are involved,  so it isn't a local server problem in Canada,  it is stupid Google gmail.  The only way I even know there is a problem is that what I sent disappears without a trace from "sent mail". 

As long as there was another message in the train that did not go to Canada,  then the traces remain as notes that some number of messages were deleted,  and I can undelete and restore the messages (now that I know what to look for).  If there is no other recipient outside Canada,  I have nothing to track it down with,  and the messages are lost. 

Why those idiots at Google do that,  who knows?

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#266 2021-10-21 17:13:21

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,088

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

For Dr. Johnson,

Please consider setting up a Yahoo email for your professional communication.

The account is free, and I have been using their service for decades, in addition to gmail, and other commercial services from time to time.

It is unacceptable (at least from my perspective) for you to be having to put up with this poor service.

(th)

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#267 2021-10-21 17:55:09

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,903

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

Thanks for continuing this project forward alone the lines of making existing hardware for a solid positive out come.

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#268 2021-11-03 08:43:33

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 4,700
Website

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

Just found the stunning letter from Jim Richard about Deltion closing shop.  I think Thomas found it before I did.  Looks like we could buy the rights to a 5 m drill,  but he didn't say anything about the price.  I know nothing about the form or size yet. 

Perhaps this is one where we need a potential user with deep pockets,  who didn't know about this thing, to buy the thing.  Musk?  NASA?  Who?  I'm at a loss here.

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#269 2021-11-03 08:51:36

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,087

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

Yahoo were the ones who had the mass hack and tried to cover it up for ages. Wouldn't touch them with a bargepole. You were lucky if your details were not hacked.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Dr. Johnson,

Please consider setting up a Yahoo email for your professional communication.

The account is free, and I have been using their service for decades, in addition to gmail, and other commercial services from time to time.

It is unacceptable (at least from my perspective) for you to be having to put up with this poor service.

(th)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#270 2021-11-03 11:08:48

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,088

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

For Louis ... Many many companies have suffered Internet attacks.  Yahoo was a victim early on, and it has been bought and sold and re-managed several times since the attacks you are remembering.

I have seen no evidence that Yahoo has failed to learn it's lesson.  Quite the contrary.

Yahoo is now offering a Virtual Private Network for it's customers, to guarantee point-to-point encryption for Internet traffic.  There is a fee for the service, so not everyone can take advantage of it, but it is available.

I feel confident in recommending Yahoo as a free Internet provider, and reject your doubts and fears out of hand.

(th)

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#271 2021-11-03 19:50:50

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,903

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

Sort of off topic but hacking has made its way into Gmail and many popular services.

post #268 GW, that does not sound very good for the efforts but perhaps the purchase of the drill is about the only option for Mars Society to put its stamp on Mars if it could get there.

Maybe send the contents of the mission to Bezo and Gates might rub a few feathers to put up or shout up....

How about a news media leak with info of the contact was made to propose the mission and why...

Something else to think of is when we go with the slow trip to mars with the near 300mT of cargo is that this is almost twice what we thought was not capable of landing such that it would not sustain damage but what about the mars landing when we are fuel limited for the header tank usage is it still capable of the landing if the ground is capable of supporting its super heavy mass?

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#272 2021-11-04 10:24:41

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 4,700
Website

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

Spacenut:

Using the best available data off SpaceX's website (propellant mass and engine thrusts) and Wikipedia (inert mass guesses),  plus my own reverse-engineering of the Raptors,  I had reverse-engineered the performance estimates for Starship to Mars,  and posted this stuff on my "exrocketman" site.  Because the inert masses are just speculation,  so is the performance.  But to the extent those inert masses are realistic,  so are the performance estimates.  I had found max payload deliverable to Mars over 200 tons (and possibly as high as 300 tons) from a min-energy Hohmann transfer (average 8.5 months one-way).  That is larger than I estimated as the max delivery to LEO for Starship/Superheavy. 

Delivery to Mars is lower on a faster trajectory,  of course.  But it is generally still larger than what could be ferried up to LEO,  even for the 4.3-month trip.  It takes a LOT of tankers to fully fuel Starship in LEO to the full 1200 tons of propellant.  But,  if you reduce payload delivered,  you can reduce the propellant load required,  and thus the number of tankers.  I got a reasonable number of tankers at 100 tons delivered. 

Spacex has yet to think their way through this landing leg/landing pad design for rough,  soft ground.  Compounding that is that we must ASSUME how strong that soft rough ground is,  there being no ground truth data for soil bearing strength,  despite decades of landers and rovers.  I have seen nothing yet on any of these prototypes to suggest they have a credible landing leg design for these purposes.  Which will show up as a catastrophe the first time one of these has to make an off-site emergency landing right here on Earth. 

I would hazard the guess that maybe we should send our letter proposal to Musk at Spacex,  with the addition that a 5-meter drill is available from Deltion,  but they are closing in 28 days.  Maybe that'll prod them off dead center on this issue. Otherwise,  I dunno.

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#273 2021-11-04 10:32:52

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,088

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

For GW Johnson,

Please follow up on your idea here.

You've already made contact with SpaceX.  The entire Canadian enterprise could be purchased by SpaceX if they were to see that as in their interest.

Please ** do ** consider sending a hard copy of your Lander proposal (with attachments if any) and include a cover letter explaining the Deltion opportunity.

If you can pull this off, then potential other Canadian citizens could offer their services to Deltion to assist them in completing a mission to launch next September. Time's passing rapidly.

***
For SpaceNut ... via your private connection to Mr. Burk, please notify him of the opportunity to pick up either Deltion or the IP.

Mars Society just received a $1,000,000 (US) grant from Blue Origin.  It would seem to me to make sense for Mars Society to at least consider nabbing either of those before they become privately owned.

Update from local metropolitan library at 15:56 local time...

It appears that both Popular Mechanics and Popular Science are still in print.

The library carries both, but since there are many branches, they only carry the publications at a few locations.

I found Air Space Smithsonian at the main library, along with Scientific American.

I asked a librarian for assistance, and she (in this case) suggested a reference publication:

Non Fiction Writer's Market ... this publication is available at the main location at the Reference desk.

I'm thinking of returning to spend some time with the book, but am on the clock now so will wrap up this visit.

Both Popular Mechanics and Popular Science offer online guides for article submission.

(th)

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#274 2021-11-04 15:41:23

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 4,700
Website

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

TH:

I think I have already done exactly what you suggested. 

I reworded draft 9 a little to reflect baselining the Deltion 5-m drill rover with our soil tester arm added to it.  I added the contact data for Jim Richard and Dale Boucher at Deltion,  and included the urgency imposed by their impending closure.  That is draft 10,  which I sent you as a pdf by email. 

Take a quick look.  If you like it,  I plan to re-date it to the 5th,  remove the notation "draft 10",  and express-mail the thing to him tomorrow (the 5th).  That's about all that I know to do. 

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#275 2021-11-04 17:47:44

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,088

Re: Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

For GW Johnson,

I received the draft and will be giving it close attention shortly.  I'm not expecting to find anything, but my review is very similar to your parachute sergeant checking your kit before you head out the door.  One more check won't hurt, and it might find something (though I doubt it).

Your plan seems solid to me.  I agree with sending with extra confirmation, even though there is an expense.

(th)

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