New Mars Forums

For Josh: #1 ...
Your vision of an inflatable tower inspired me to look around a bit to see what might already exist.  I found a commercially available Ham Radio field antenna tower that inflates to a height of 30 feet.  It is held in place with a steady flow of air from a small gas engine powered air pump.

From past camping trips, I remembered that there are collapsible cups, so I ordered a couple to see how they are made.  The cups arrived yesterday.  One is made of metal and the other plastic.  Both achieve water tight seals through (what I assume is) cohesion between the (nearly perfectly) smooth surfaces of the ring walls of the cups.  However I note that the commercially supplied cups could not be inflated because the wall seal does not occur until the sections have been physically brought into firm contact.

In reviewing this before posting, I noted that it is not clear that the intention is that the hooks shown in the diagram are intended to push against the wall adjacent to them, to create a seal at inflation time.  The vertical pressure of the inflated tower should provide a seal as the lips come into firm contact with each other.

In thinking about how the collapsible cup idea might be adapted for an inflatable tower with metal walls, I offer this little doodle for consideration.
Hopefully Dropbox's link below is available to anyone who might wish to open it.

(th)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/40ysvk22xr9tm … l.pdf?dl=0

In another topic, kbd512 pointed out that in scouting out potential landing sites for C130 aircraft in unprepared terrain, it was occasionally appropriate to send individuals to the potential site to pound stakes into the soil as a way of collecting data about the soil (to characterize the soil).

The Insight lander will use an electric hammer (as described earlier in this topic) to deliver a probe to a point below the surface. What is NOT clear (to me) at this point, is whether the Insight engineering team will be collecting data about the soil the probe will be entering, AND if that data will be provided to potential landing site planners.

Nasa has set up a primitive AI system at Ask NASA Mars.  It is not a shining example of anywhere near Alexa level, for sure.

Begin Quotation:
My name is ROV-E. I am a real robot with a computer brain. I'm learning to talk. Every question you ask helps me learn. If I don't know the answer yet, Mars scientists and engineers will teach me more answers for you.
End Quotation.

Begin Quotation of response:
ROV-E: If you were asking: Thanks, the answer is: You're welcome!
End Quotation.

What I'm hoping is that questions ROVE-E cannot answer will be reviewed by a member of the Insight Team.

I've invited them to open a membership on the NewMars.com forum, to facilitate immediate communication with members of this community.

https://mars.nasa.gov/ask-nasa-mars/#/

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For kbd512 #34 .... the next opportunity for "guys and gals" to pound some stakes is coming up:
Begin Quotation:
From Google:
NASA Launch Schedule | Rocket Launches
https://www.nasa.gov/launchschedule
Date: November 26, 2018. Mission: InSight Landing on Mars. Description: The Entry, Descent and Landing phase is the final plunge of the Mars InSight Lander ...
End Quotation.
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For GW #12:

Interesting concept !!! I hope your poster caught the eye of a few attendees.  This is the first time I've heard the idea, so I'm guessing it has not been widely publicized.  A consideration is having to pull along the axis of rotation, which would be a factor in plotting a course change.  Without knowing the answer before hand, is it practical to divide the tractor into a component that lands on the object and charges it one way, while the tractor remains separated and charges itself to the opposite polarity?  Then the tractor could position itself wherever might be best for the needed course change.

Or, (come to think of it), the tractor might use the wire to achieve a significant charge and then disengage the wire, so it can move to where it is needed.

Another (probably minor) technical consideration is managing distance between the object and the tractor ... if electrostatic force builds up to any significance, it might achieve closure between the object and the tractor, so the tractor would have to start all over again.

Neat Ps and pps !!!
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SpaceNut: Thanks for the tip about the rocketman blog ... that site will absorb some reading time, for sure! (th)

For SpaceNut ...
Thanks for endorsement of the proposal suggestion to Josh in the ion topic.  This would mean extra work for Josh of course, but I am gambling that there is a reservoir of talent with visibility into this forum, beyond the high level I have already seen.  Non-posters with visibility into the forum are likely to know of individuals whose studies or interests lead in the direction Josh is pointing.

Thanks too, for pointing out the search instructions.  I am embarrassed to admit they were right there on the search page, but I overlooked them.

Thanks (finally) for explaining that this forum is not set up to support projects.  I am not surprised.  I have never encountered a forum that was designed specifically to facilitate co-working.  On the other hand, there certainly are co-working web sites, and I've even used what is now UpWork with good results.

Back on the first hand ... this appears to be a gathering place for people who are interested (broadly) in Mars Society goals, and that would not be the case at a commercial co-working site.

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You said:
The search function

To search by keyword, enter a term or terms to search for.
Separate terms with spaces. Use AND, OR and NOT to refine your search.

The topics are meant to be focused discusion within the first post as moderated by the topic poster but it sometimes wanders quite a bit.
As for project "projects" we really are not structured to do these as an open forum. Thou if the topics stay true to the opening its as close as we can come.

Is there something you are looking for?

Continuing greenhouse thread from 2016:

Meet the farmers of the future: Robots
Michael Liedtke
Associated Press
https://www.dailyherald.com/article/201 … /310039961
or
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/busin … /38066887/

Begin Quotation:
During the next few years, Iron Ox wants to open robot farms near metropolitan areas across the U.S. to serve up fresher produce to restaurants and supermarkets. Most of the vegetables and fruit consumed in the U.S. is grown in California, Arizona, Mexico and other nations. That means many people in U.S. cities are eating lettuce that’s nearly a week old by the time it’s delivered.
End Quotation.
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Speaking only for myself, I appreciate the contributions to this discussion by kbd512 and SpaceNut ... I had to give up on my ambitions for a career in physics, but I retain a layman's interest in the field.  I'd like to inquire if a version of a Bose-Einstein condensate might permit iron ions (as just one example) to be stored for use in Josh's (hypothetical) high energy thrust device.  In that case, ions would be created through high energy processes, and then cooled until they can be packed to the density needed for a flight.  This process would take a long time (no doubt) but if the compact storage can hold the accumulation of positive ions, then it wouldn't matter how long the accumulation took. 
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For Void in #47 ...

Could your idea be adapted for Elon Musk and his attempts to catch fairings with Mr. Steven ... I understand the attempts have been unsuccessful so far.

Musk is using a boat for the catch attempts, and as I understand your idea, it would be capable of faster movement. 

As I understand the situation, there is considerable economic advantage to catching the fairings before they hit the water.

https://www.space.com/41614-spacex-mr-s … close.html

Begin Quotation:
In the past, fairings have been severely damaged when they've slammed into the water or been exposed to the briny water. During a pre-launch call (ahead of May’s Bangabhandu launch), Musk stressed the corrosive nature of salt water, explaining that the company wants to reduce costs by cutting down on the refurbishments that each fairing half goes through after landing in the ocean.
End Quotation.

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For Josh:

Thanks for taking a look at the ion "rotating wall" storage paper. 

Your observation that ion density is low, compared to the requirements for the propulsion system you've proposed, could be read as encouragement to see if the storage system can be improved.  I reread Post #1 of this topic, and noted the advantage of using iron as the working "fluid".

By coincidence, while searching for articles about GCR's, I found that iron is one of many elements which are stripped of electrons and launched into the cosmos by natural processes.  I note that a propulsion system that generated 1% of light speed iron packets would (presumably) show up as a GCR generator if a detector is downstream.

I was surprised to learn how much work is being done in study of GCR's and similar high energy moving particles.

Here is one system which uses detection of Cherenkov radiation to "observe" GCR (and other radiation) activity.
https://www.hawc-observatory.org/observatory/tanks.php

Elsewhere in the forum there has been discussion of use of water to protect space travelers from radiation.  It would seem from the HAWC example, that a pool of water would sparkle with Cherenkov radiation.  I recall reading that astronauts have reported observing flashes of light as radiation passes through the eyeball.

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For Josh and SpaceNut ...
It turned out I had a binder with notes on the "rotating wall" ion storage system.
The article is by Hollmann, Anderegg and C. F. Driscoll
UC San Diego
The copy I have is from Physics of Plasmas Vol 7, Number 7, July 2000
However, a direct link to the American Institue of Physics citations web site appears to be showing the same paper:
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.874128

The first correction I have to make to my recollection from 2010, is that the storage method uses electric fields, not magnetic ones.
However, I gather that magnetic forces are present because charges are moving. 

The density achieved for the experiments cited appears to be low, but it may be sufficient to demonstrate the feasibility of what I understand to be your idea.

The paper discusses electrons and ions in a section entitled: Torque from Driven Plasma modes

Extrapolating from what I understand of your idea, I can imagine a vehicle with pods to right and left of a central fuselage, dedicated to positively charged ions on one side, and electrons or perhaps negatively charged ions on the other side, with a propulsion device in the center.

Google listed multiple citations for E.M. Hollmann and for C.F. Driscol in 2010.

Amazons shows two books by Driscoll:
Pure Electron Plasmas Near Thermal Equilibrium1996
by C. F. Driscoll
Paperback
$105.00(1 used & new offers)
Transport in Nonneutral Plasmas
Transport in Nonneutral Plasmas1996
by C. F. Driscoll
Paperback
$105.00(1 used & new offers)

No books showed up for E.M. Hollmann
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