New Mars Forums

Louis,

Thanks for continuing development of your vision for Sagan City.

A city is a social construct.  A vision is a significant framework upon which humans can build.

I am pulling one small section from your 2036 article to invite your consideration of action you can take now to improve probability that your vision will be realized.  The permanent representative to the United Nations from Great Britain is Dame karen Pierce, according to sources collected by Mr. Google.

I'm hoping to encourage you to contact Dame Pierce to invite her to support an initiative to recognize Mars as an Antarctic style conflict free zone. My opinion is your mention of UN recognition of Mars is about 18 years too late.  Conflict is inevitable when great human powers are butting heads, but the Antarctic example shows that "civilized" behavior is possible. 

Earlier, you have demurred from selecting borders for Sagan City.  This is an oversight you may wish to correct, as you prepare for your conversation with representatives of Dame Pierce's office.  No human being is going to take seriously a claim to founding of a city if borders are not clearly defined.

You are off to a terrific start by selecting a location for the City Center.

Things are in a state of such flux here in the States, I am doubtful this is a good time for a contact along these lines with the office of the UN Ambassador from the US.  On the other hand, if a contact from a US resident in support of your initiative would be worth trying, I'm willing to make the attempt.

Begin Quotation:
Karen Pierce - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Pierce
Dame Karen Elizabeth Pierce, DCMG (born 23 September 1959) is a British diplomat who is the Permanent Representative of the United Kingdom to the United Nations.
Career · Offices held
End Quotation.

(th)

Louis,

Some years ago now, a local robotics competition for high school students included a challenge to sweep dust off solar panels.  I have noticed the absence of robots on Mars to perform that function.  That's not a criticism of course, because the missions currently on Mars have been scrubbed of non-essential functionality.  However, the next generation might well include robots dedicated to maintenance of solar panel arrays.  A potentially useful cleaning method would be jets of atmosphere across the panels, to try to reduce abrasion of the surface of the panels.

Edit: If a private enterprise were looking for a project, to test a solar panel cleaning robot, here is a suggestion:
https://mars.nasa.gov/mer/mission/statu … tyAll.html

(th)

Louis,

Here is some local talent you might be able to recruit for a Sagan City project of some kind:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/07/27-year … mazon.html

(th)

kbd512 .... This is offered as a brief counterpoint. For your presentation on one view of "magical thinking" there are few who will surpass it.

However, after thinking about the point of view you are so effectively supporting, I decided to remind readers that this concept in English has more than one interpretation.  English (and probably all languages) has the multiple interpretation option built in as a feature.

"Magical Thinking" is what Einstein was doing when he imagined flying along with a light beam.

"Magical Thinking" is what the PhD's and undergraduates are doing when they try to think of a way to confirm the validity of String Theory with observations.

The interpretation I am offering, as distinct from your perfectly valid one, is that "Magical Thinking" is indistinguishable from "Creative Thinking".

I would argue that ALL scientific progress has come about as a result of a combination of observation of the natural world and creative thinking, which (I argue) was indistinguishable from "magical thinking" at the time it occurred.

Your presentation (while most assuredly valid) has the unfortunate effect of casting a wet blanket of implied criticism over the field of creative thinking.

The vision of humans living on Mars, most recently articulated by Louis in this forum, is going to come about through vast amounts of creative thinking, harnessed and guided by knowledge of the understood universe. 

While I agree that Louis does appear to engage in magical thinking from time to time, of the kind that you point out correctly does not match the understood universe, I find in Louis' imaginings inspiration for renewed effort to help him realize those parts of his vision which can be guided to match reality.

(th)

SearchTopic:BusinessOpportunity

Thanks to SpaceNut for setting up this topic.  I interpret this action by SpaceNut as a reflection of his role as a leader of a volunteer community, looking for ways to fit new recruits into the structure so they have a chance to contribute under his watchful eye.

Thanks to kbd512 for his helpful comparison of communist systems and capitalist ones, and (while I'm at it) for a great number of posts on this forum that are packed with useful content on a variety of subjects.

Given this bit of running room, I'd like to provide a place for robust discussion of business opportunities in the context of Mars development.

Because Earth is the only place we humans are currently actually DOING business development, the conversation necessarily will include examples of Earth based opportunities.

I am looking for action plans, or for advice on how to improve action plans to increase probability of success in the marketplace.

Most of all, I am hoping this topic reaches young people who are thinking of building businesses, on Mars if that seems attractive, but certainly on Earth, where the number of people who need the structured environment of a JOB is in the billions.  People who enjoy the privilege of participating in a JOB are benefiting from the services of JOB CREATORS, who assume risks that most job holders have no idea about, and many of whom will never comprehend.

In the context of the opening discussion of closing of plants and laying off of thousands of people by one American company, I have pointed out the opportunity that clearly exists to design, install and maintain emergency shelters for Mars or for Earth (or elsewhere).  The elephant in the room is that the target population on Earth consists almost entirely of human beings who cannot afford the kind of shelter needed in their particular circumstances.

Accordingly, I am hoping to attract to this discussion persons who have studied financing of public works projects, or large scale projects in general.

The need is clear.  The resources of capable human beings and plant and equipment are widely available.  What (I perceive) is needed is a set of Job Creators who can match opportunity with resources and see a way to make a profit.

(th)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nasa-chief-s … 21836.html

It appears that Mr. Bridenstine (Bridenstine) doesn't agree with you on this one, GW! (th)

Louis, every now and then your imagination gets ahead of me !!! I'll have to admit I was stuck back in a mode of imagining simulated flight over the Martian landscape.  Your concept of long distance sculpture could be realized using 3D printer technology, if a customer were willing to pay for rental of the equipment and materials, much as 3D Printer customers do today on Earth.  I have difficulty imagining anyone doing that, but it certainly will be feasible at some point.

kbd512 ... thanks for your perspective on the value of flight training for emergency capability.  I like your CPR example, and would add to that the capability to stay afloat in water, which was a phys ed requirement at the school I attended in California. 

However, what I ** really ** wanted to thank you for was the tip about RedBird, which was (I gather) founded in Texas in 2006.  There are only two reviews on the company web site, but the pictures of the equipment give a good sense of how realistic the experience would be. 

I see what you mean about not having a side view, but that could be dealt with if the manufacturer wanted to make the investment, and if customers were willing to fund the enhancement.

However, modern VR equipment might solve the problem nicely.

I am waiting for VR equipment to achieve a level that is beyond where it was when I last tried it a year ago. 

(th)

Edit(1)

For Louis ...

Thanks for the link to that Wikipedia article about JPL/NASA decisions regarding time measurement on Mars.  I was with them all the way, until I read that they decided to change the second too.  I suppose that makes sense for overall consistency, but it eliminates the possibility of having a "universal" second. 

As founder of a city on Mars, you have the option of adopting the JPL/NASA precedent or advocating for something else.  However, the strength of the community which has actually landed and operated vehicles on Mars is significant. 

One thing I noticed was that (according to the article) time zones have not yet been defined, but it seems to me humans will want them.  Also, there will surely be an incentive for humans on Mars to maintain an Earth standard time tracking system in order to be able to tune into broadcasts of entertainment and news programs which (I am confident) will be sent on to Mars.

(th)

SearchTerm:SaganCityAttributesOf

To perform an unambiguous search for the above in NewMars forum, use the and function and the colon as tie breaker.  eg, SearchTerm: and :SaganCity

Sagan City on Mars (2018 version)
Attributes compiled from posts by Louis

Location: 34.58 degrees West and 21 degrees North
Suggested by: Louis on NewMars Forum
Population: Zero as of 2018/11/27 on Earth
Policy for Time: NASA/JPL precedent
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timekeeping_on_Mars
   A Martian day is divided into 24 Martian hours of 60 Martian minutes and 60 Martian seconds
   Time Zones are not defined by NASA/JPL
Policy for Time Zones:
   Time Zones are needed for coordination of activities around the planet
   The time zones will default to 15 degrees of longitude
    Lines of latitude and longitude have been defined by precedent
    https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Spac … de_on_Mars
Area: Circle of radius 50 kilometers
Boundaries: Circumference of a circle of 50 kilometers radius

Governance: To be defined (update pending)
Policy for Immigration: To be defined (update pending)
Policy for Behavior by Human Beings: To be defined (update pending)
Additional items: to be added

Most recent edit: 2018/12/16

(th)

Louis,

I started out liking your preference for retaining the Earth "hour" of 60 minutes, but SpaceNut's discussion below leads me to wonder if it wouldn't be easier for everyone to simply adopt 15 degree time zones and settle for 24 Martian "hours" which are longer than Earth hours by 37/24 minutes >> 1.681818182.

But if we make that adjustment, it might be a reasonable extension to simply set the hour to 60 Martian minutes, or 61.541666667 Earth minutes.

My guess is that we humans would hardly know the difference, and coordination of activities around the planet would be greatly simplified.

The amount of time we call a second would (it seems to me) work as well on Mars as it does on Earth, so a minute on Mars would be 1.025695 Earth minutes.  In that case, we would continue to use 60 minute "hours", and simply make microcode adjustment in digital clocks.  In fact, digital clocks could be fitted with buttons to show Earth or Mars time.

Louis, there might be a novelty business opportunity in that thought, for Earth customers.

***

(I'll be happy to correct errors in any are found in this post).

Begin Quotation:
https://www.universetoday.com/14717/how … y-on-mars/

On Earth, this takes exactly 23 hours, 56 minutes and 4.1 seconds. In comparison, on Mars, a sidereal day lasts 24 hours, 37 minutes, and 22 seconds.
End Quotation.
(th)

Thanks to IanM and Louis for considering the Time Zone topic. 

This is not offered in judgement, but I'd like to point out that 3 AM at Longitude 0 is 2 AM one "Mars Hour" West ...

That said, the underlying concept (as I understand it) would be to add 37 minutes to the clock once a day.

If the residents on Mars set up a broadcast similar to the Universal Standard Time broadcast, then the longitude chosen for that service would allow the planet to catch up for 37 minutes once a Sol.

If residents set up their local times to match the Sun's apparent motion, then the 3 AM concept would work well, but in that case, the local time would be out of sync with the planet time. 

Television broadcasts might be scheduled based upon "planet time", but that time would differ from local time by 37 minutes except in the broadcast time zone.

Edit: the radio broadcast service that announces "Universal Standard Time" is due for a name change, to "Planetary Standard Time", as the human race edges closer to being a multiplanet species.

(th)