New Mars Forums

Where does rich people's money come from? Magic? Thin Air?

The government's responsibility is to the people that elected it.

I don't have to admit that social programs are failure because thats a  load of bollocks. The education I'm receiving is paid for by the government. When I get a big fancy high paying job from that education, the government makes more than its investment back from making me pay higher taxes. Everybody wins! I'm not a greedy person, so I have no problem giving back to the society that helped me get where I am.

To bring this back on topic, I would prefer all that money that was spent on the Iraq war and military were invested in either Space or social programs like education. We'd could have easily been on Mars by now for the outrageous amount that was spent.

If they spent a fraction of that money on a Human Mars Mission, there would be no need to outsource!!

I totally agree.

I'm dead excited about what phoenix returns in may, and the MRL in 2010.

Eventually, Human explorers will have to go there. I don't think we'll have an autonomous colony for a long long time. It will probably be a lot of research stations for a few decades. When it does happen I think we should have a solarized space manufacturing infrastructure in place to trade useful resources between different solar system bodies.   

I reckon that other places in the solar system should also be inhabited concurrently as its easier to get useful materials from them and transport to other locations than from Earth. If enough R&D is done, a lot of manufacturing and mining could be based in space like on the Moon and Asteroids. Manufacturing LOX, Metallic Space Craft Parts on the Moon would be an example. Some Spacecraft would be too large to launch of Earths surface with current technology, but they could be easily lifted of an  Asteroid or a Moon transporting useful materials in bulk.

Venus happens to have one of the most useful industrial chemicals floating around its atmosphere, so eventually settling there could be a very wise idea.

Uhh water is not the thing you need for a colony. Its important, but its not everything we need. Money is also not the only problem.

Research on Mars is still a young and ongoing field.

Actually we don't know these things. Thats why we keep sending probes there. There are huge gaps in the information. There chances nothing will ever grow in martian soil or it will need extensive treatment and processing. It could be full of salt or hydrogen peroxide or too acidic.

Hydroponics will require a lot of importing from Earth if we lack the facilities to obtain the right materials on Mars or elsewhere. It will require extensive processing. 

To colonize substantial part of space, we are going to need more than small factories, they will have to be substantial facilities to make it economical or even feasible.

Making products in space is not as simple as just putting a machine up there. It has to be designed to account for low gravity or zero g. The Weight and Volume of the Machines have to be accounted for because of launch weight limits.

All sorts of Hazards could be possible in space due to lack of atmosphere, solar radiation, sharp electrostatic dust, lo gravity. A factory would probably have to be sealed airtight (if not operated by robots). How do workers operate in a space factory? Certain materials form differently in space in partial gravity.

Machines for manufacturing in space would require specialized design.

There are plenty of locations on Earth that could be easier to exploit than Mars, but nobody is touching them with a barge pole because they're still insanely difficult and need extensive R&D.

In response to the topic of the thread, going to Venus would be helpful as H2SO4 is one of the most widely used and produced industrial chemical on Earth. Its readily available in the Venusian Clouds. It could be a huge export of Venus and would aid development of other colonies.

True. Nobody even know if it could support life at all. I hope it can..

We often take for granted just how complicated our modern world is. Even the simplest products require multiple complicated processes and trade of developed resources all over the world. Everything is dependent on a hundred other things existing.

The obsession with Mars is just the single path fallacy.

No one is even sure anything will grow on Mars. We know nothing about the chemical make up of its soil, Whether we can protect the colony from Radiation, does it have all the right mineral deposits to support modern industry etc etc. There is a lot of uncertainty. Its certainly won't support itself for a long long time. There is practically no country on Earth that supports itself. 

If I told you to go set up a domed colony in the middle of the Sahara (Or Antartica/Attacama) - you would rightly tell me how crazy and unrealistic that was. Mars is no different and it will be no easy task as has been made out. We actually don't know that much about it.

Settling the cloud tops of Venus is no more technologically difficult than domed settlements on Mars (they are both very very difficult) 

I suggest exploring a vast amount of space before serious settlement of anywhere. When the time comes to settle, have infrastructure in place to support multiple settlements.

Space manufacturing needs some serious R&D. When the time comes, they will have to know how to make useful products in Space. I don't think anybody knows how to build a factory on the Moon or In Space.

But we are the state, so it a burden worth paying for.

I'd include under the umbrella of social spending all of the other things I mentioned above

Lets face it, the real reason we are here on this forum and want to go to Mars is because It's cool!!

The facade of pseudo-intellectual justification for going there is just pure  bullshit!

Don't get me wrong, I totally approve of space exploration, because it's cool! New places, possibilities, groovy technology, advancing scientific knowledge etc etc

Mars doesn't have everything we need and its not necessarily the best place for humans to be in the solar system given its lower access to solar power, less than great gravity. In fact no one knows if anything will even grow in the current Martian soil. Any strategy that uses less payloads from Earth will be a lot more feasible and economical. Colonizing several places concurrently will even out the advantages/disadvantages of all these locations. Lots of places in the Solar system have better recoverable resources than Mars.

The industrial base for space colonization needs to be developed off Earth. The Moon will be a good start to developing this infrastructure. Given the population explosion, it makes a lot more sense to settle and take advantage of the resources of more than one place.

The tech to implement such infrastructure is not far away. Actually, a lot of it is quite feasible now.

The thick atmosphere of Venus and high Wind speeds make sure that the night side of the planet is as hot as the day side.

Most of the Heat is being transported by the atmosphere. If you could disrupt this flow of heat from the day side to the night, you could potentially make the night side much colder.

I propose an Atmospheric dam around the planet to disrupt the flow. It would probably have to be around 40 km high and encircle the planet from pole to pole. It could be essentially a hollow structure if the materials and design where strong enough. A very wide base to cope with the load would be a preferable.

Why not? Despite all the things thrown at them, they aren't horrible monsters. They're states with lots of technical know how, money to invest etc etc

On a very practical level they have a huge amount to play a constructive role in colony development. Actually, the Saudi know a lot about irrigation, they could play a big role.

I don't think exclusion will do any good when colonizing other worlds. It will just breathe hatred.

I've come to realize that many of the possible targets for human habitation in the solar system are less than ideal. Each one has different pro and cons in terms of natural resources and enviroment. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages.

I propose that instead of making any one target (like Mars) for habitation, we make home on several solar bodies at once and trade their resources across space to balance out the deficiencies.

For example, Venus has the advantage of Earth like Gravity, Pressure and temperature at a certain altitude. A floating colony could be potentially built here. If has abundant Solar Power, CO2, H2S04, Nitrogen. What It lacks in great amounts is liquid water. This could be possibly provided from Mars, Asteroids and Comets, Saturn and Jupiter's Moons. The colonists don't need enough water to make Oceans, just enough to subsist and it makes more sense to provide that from anywhere with less gravity than Earth.

Titan is a frigid moon that makes very little sense to 'terraform', but it has low escape velocity and abundant water, nitrogen and hydocarbon reserves. These would be invaluable to Venus, Martian and Lunar colonist    s. Fertilizer(NH3), Plastics, Fuel, Cryogenic coolant would all be incredibly useful for human colonies. It would be much easier to launch this raw material from here than Earth. The Low gravity of Titan could be a mitigating factor to permanent residents but a great site for tourism with its scenic alien landscape.

Mars has the advantage of being a very Earth-like planet, with a similar rotational period making it awesome for growing crops. Its low temperature and pressure could be overcome with a parra terraforming scheme or similar. Useful bulk materials from other parts of the solar system will be easier to transport here than if they were obtained from Earth.

The Moon's abundance of metals and sillicates, closeness to Earth and low gravity make it an attractive place to build materials destined for elsewhere in the solar system. Very large rockets lifting heavy payloads might be constructed here from the metal. Obtaining oxygen from minerals in the Regolith  might make this a very good place for refueling ship bound elsewhere in the Solar system etc etc

The asteroids have an incredible wealth of mineral resources that could be useful for colonies on all these brave new worlds. Water, carbonates, Metals etc etc

There are potential regions of Mercury that could host human settlers. It has Mars like surface gravity, similar surface to the Moon, enormous amounts of metal and solar power. Mercury lacks the volatiles and atmosphere to sustain life but these could come from elsewhere Its weak magnetic field at least deflects solar radiation.

Distances in space are huge and take a long time to traverse with current technology. To Overcome this deficiency, a constant stream of ships going back and forth hauling cargo between these different world would make it more practical and economical. A lot of these ship could be unmanned and automated to spare humans too many dull irradiated journeys..

The gist of what I'm saying is no to have all ones eggs in one basket and that all the places in the solar system have stuff they can offer to each other that is advantageous.