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#201 Re: Other space advocacy organizations » Forget Advocacy, Run for Government Now » 2006-05-08 08:46:26

From the 1000 Planets Mars Project Page:

I want to live on Mars. I want that to be where I am when I die. I want to be buried outside Harriman Hall in Marsopolis.

Wait a minute, JW.  Let me get my head around this.

You're running for governor... and your life's goal is to move out of state?

#202 Re: Water on Mars » There's WATER on MARS » 2006-05-08 08:33:13

The link in the post above has an error.  It wasn't hard to find the working link, though.

The pictures in question appear to be those of the bright soil patch that the spirit rover found itself stuck in shortly after its recent wheel failure in late March.  IMHO, they indicate the very recent presence of liquid water.  The deposits are located under a very shallow layer of surface dust.  While the deposition of wind blown dust is relatively slow on Mars, it did not take three billion years to lay down a mere centimeter of dust.  It did not even require a thousand years.   

Unfortunately, contrary to what the article may say, those pictures are probably neither mud nor ice. 

The material is clearly not a frozen block of anything - Spirit got stuck in it.

The material also does not exhibit the sort of adhesion, clumping, or sagging that one would associate with mud or even unusually moist soil.  Whatever it is, there isn't enough liquid water left in it to make the grains stick together.  Other photos from that incident show that it was churned up by the working wheels, with patches of the bright material thrown up on top of the surface soil or piled on other layers in a thoroughly powdery fashion. 

But, it seems to be mostly salt, probably water soluble salts, and all that salt had to get there somehow within the last thousand years.  It did not blow in on the wind. 

The only obvious way to create that deposit is inundation with liquid brine.  Evaporation of the water content would leave a powdery layer of freeze-dried dust and salt, and I believe that is what Spirit found. 

Dust and salt are everywhere on Mars - we can't even keep them off of the rover. But water formed deposits that are this geologically young may be rare.  This deposit is less than a thousand years old, it is accessible, and Spirit will be sitting just a few meters from it for the next few months.  It is entirely possible that there may still be liquid brine only a meter or so beneath the surface at that point.  If the process that laid down that salt is still ongoing, Spirit's confinement at Low Haven may enable it to observe traces of it in action. 

I'd prefer a front end loader, but the mini thermal emission spectrometer might be sufficient given a few months of continuous observations.

#203 Re: Life support systems » Power generation on Mars » 2006-05-01 15:42:52

"with an output power of 3 kWe and a system mass of 775 kg is" ...patently useless. Much too heavy.

Not if the bulk of that is water, crap and bugs.  I think a microbial fuel cell with that weight migt prove very useful.

A 20 kg gas can is only useless if there's no gas in it at time it's weighed.

#204 Re: Human missions » Hang-gliding to orbit? » 2006-05-01 15:35:50

I don't think a simple airfoil of just any type picked out of a hat is going to get this type of vehicle to orbit. 

The point of minimum vertical force is always waiting for anything trying to employ aerodynamic lift.  Having a net weight - not floating at equilibrium - only subtracts weight from the available vertical force, causing the minimum to come that much sooner. 

If a vehicle dependent on aerodynamic lift to maintain altitude cannot get its net weight under that minimum vertical force, it can never ascend to orbit.

Unfortunately, wings large enough to do the job are large.  Heavy too.  A simple parasail won't work because there has to be sufficient aerodynamic lift to keep it open at all times, and eventually there won't be.  Stiff wing support with compressive strength is required.  Gas filled wings would fill the bill, but wings large enough to be useful for this scheme would take several minutes to fill, and wouldn't be something you could just pop out of your rocket.  Serious vertical velocity, on the order of at least 3 km/s, would be required for the flight time to even deploy them - there'd be no talk of a checklist.

Having a high altitude rocket plane to maintain it at altitude only gets around these problems until the vehicle is cut loose and has to worry about its own drag.

It would be more practical to just add a rocket stage on the top of that booster instead of a winged vehicle.  And, BTW, if you're going to use a gas-filled anything, why not just make it a bouyant airship?

(Yes, GCNR, I'm aware that I'm becoming a vaporware apologist.  "Take up your Airship-To-Orbit and follow me", etc., etc.)

No, I don't think this could get you to orbit.

#205 Re: Human missions » Hang-gliding to orbit? » 2006-04-27 13:57:43

The solar thermal to orbit idea is just plain batty, it would never work. The sunlight just isn't bright enough, your collector would have to be too big. Does anybody have any idea just how much power is associated with rocket engines?

Airship to orbit is an interesting idea, but I doubt that it would work, the engineering margins are just too slim.

"Never" is too strong a word for the solar thermal to orbit concept.  (Can't argue with batty...)  Conceptually, it's very similar to airship to orbit in that it employs a low thrust rocket engine to move a lifting body from aerostatic equilibrium to orbital altitudes.  Tom Jolly apparently just never made the conceptual leap necessary to look past the point of minimum vertical force on its trajectory.  I didn't either, at the time.

As for how much more power density a rocket engine requires than what sunlight has to give, you're quite right.  Any vehicle expecting to use sunlight to power a serious rocket would need a collector area of several hectares.  It would need to be as large as, well, Tom Jolly's BalRoc or JPA's Orbital Ascender.

TwinBeam's parasail idea can't provide as great a boost as those other two schemes offer because it it doesn't start from static equilibrium.  At no point during its ascent would all of its aerodynamic lift be translated into upward acceleration.  But, it could still get a substantial boost. 

A parasail vehicle - no more missile than your average ultralight - powered by a more conventional high thrust chemical rocket engine, could be feasible for a suborbital vehicle.

#206 Re: Youth Group / Educational Outreach » Ideas for Outreach » 2006-04-27 09:55:36

Kevin Murray's space.com article, The Accidental Space Activist, has a few good ideas for educational outreach.

I especially like the part about free goodies!

#207 Re: Human missions » Hang-gliding to orbit? » 2006-04-25 18:02:06

Actually, it's not a new idea. 

Similar concepts have been seriously proposed.  At least two got some serious discussion here at New Mars: the Airship to Orbit Thread and the very similar Tom Jolly's Solar Thermal Ground-To-Orbit Concept.

I wrote an article for the New Mars wiki about ATO, which has some useful links on the topic.

And, of course, don't forget the world's fastest winged vehicle. OSC's Pegasus launch vehicle beats out the space shuttle by a technicality. 

Reaching the upper atmosphere with a jet-powered parasail.  Hmm...

#208 Re: Unmanned probes » Mars Exploration Rovers (MER) » 2006-04-07 13:13:15

Spirit isn't going to make it to McCool Hill.

They have redirected the rover to a closer slope due to an impassable patch of sand between Spirit and McCool.  It's still 20 meters, though.

#209 Re: Human missions » NASA Calls On Private Sector » 2006-03-30 10:03:18

Even with the failure--I still rank Musk ahead of Rutan & Co. in crediblility.

Why?  Has the Pegasus launch vehicle been discontinued?

#210 Re: Martian Chronicles » Do you know what book this is? » 2006-03-27 15:39:44

Please try to find out if the story was a novel or short story.  Also, if you can get any idea of whether the story was written before or after Mariner 4, we could narrow down the time it was published. 

I did do a quick database search for you.  So far, mixed news: In spite of the  plethora of stories about resurrected spacemen from that period (wierd!  :shock: ), I found no plot summaries that matched what you're describing.  Most of the bibliographic databases available only track these stories back to about 1980, so it proves nothing by itself, but does show that this particular dramatic device is at least rare.  So, the point about believing they're the first expedition and finding a dead astronaut when they get there might actually be sufficient to identify the story.

This is not a Ray Bradbury story. (Bradbury's stuff has apparently been catalogued to death, and, preferring resurrected spacemen, he never wrote a story along those lines.)  It's probably not a Robert Heinlein story, either.

#211 Re: Liberum Olympia » Some issues » 2006-03-24 08:12:14

CIclops has suggested unlocking the Liberum Olympia discussion so that it can be accessed by all New Mars members.  He suggested that this is a good step toward increasing wiki contributions, and I concur. 

At present, any New Mars member can contribute to the wiki.  Why shouldn't they be allowed to contribute to the forum discussion topic, too?

#212 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Domed habitats... - ...size, materials, and more. » 2006-03-20 08:44:27

In the past, I have slam-dunked many ideas that involved using concrete on Mars.  Lacking significant calcium bearing minerals, I did not think it was practical.

If calcium is rare, then don't use it as a structural material.  It's required for portland cement, true, but there are many other cement blends available.  Sorel cement, for example, is a magnesia cement - a cement that uses magnesium oxide rather than calcium oxide to produce a binder.   It has about the same strength as portland cement, has a similar mix, and is produced using a similar process.  I'm not saying you just hold the quicklime out and throw the magnesia in to make sorel cement instead of portland cement, but it's darn close. 

We've found precious little magnesium carbonate on Mars so far (or anything carbonate, for that matter...   :? ), but there is clearly magnesium everywhere over there.  If you're just willing to forget about portland cement, you can have concrete on Mars.

#213 Re: Human missions » NASA Calls On Private Sector » 2006-03-20 08:21:00

Griffin is supposed to reverse decisions putting a hold on plans to outsource much of NASA’s basic research....

The Indo-US deal on space research and application would usher in an era of joint exploration between the space agencies of the two nations, former chairman of Indian Space Research Organisation K Kasturirangan said today.

Hmm...

Now, is this just sending away jobs overseas, or is NASA actually going to arrange a partnership? 

In my meager experience, the people of India are actually quite enthusiastic about their emerging potential in various fields of industry and technology, including space travel.  In my opinion, the people of the United States of America could benefit from exposure to a little enthusiasm about space travel in an allied democracy. 

And, contrary to popular conception here in the States, English is spoken fairly regularly in India.  True, I'm half deaf and have spent half my life listening to southern drawls rather than that soft hindu accent, but if the guys on the other end of the phone are telling me something I want to hear, I am capable of listening.

Outsourcing can become a sucking wound in the US space program, or it can infuse it with new vigor.  It all depends on what the ISRO puts in to the relationship, and working out the right balance between competition and cooperation. 

I think this agreement has great potential for both nations.

#214 Re: Liberum Olympia » Manual-style? » 2006-02-27 13:05:48

(3 microsecs later:)

lol  lol  lol  lol  lol

You mean flEshed out!

Heeheehee! I really was confused there for a second....


:oops:

#215 Re: Liberum Olympia » Manual-style? » 2006-02-27 09:58:47

We could use some more examples for the various systems discussed.  I've already added some simple examples for the "RTG" and "Solar Panels" articles.  Several other articles could be flushed out with a good example, too.

#216 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Looking for space propulsion books » 2006-02-23 14:11:56

I'm enrolled a spacecraft design class at Stanford University. The project I am working on is a propulsion system using micro-thrusters for cubesats. I'm looking for some good books to read up on spacecraft propulsion systems. I want to get a broad knowledge to really understand the important fundamental concepts of space propulsion.

Thanks in advance.  big_smile

You might also consider the following public domain books.  They're a little old, but might still be helpful:

The Problem of Space Travel: The Rocket Motor

How to Design, Build and Test Small Liquid-Fueled Rocket Engines

Engines and Innovation: Lewis Laboratory and American Propulsion Technology

I also recommend the web pages and lecture notes available at MIT OpenCourseWare Project.

#217 Re: Liberum Olympia » Some issues » 2006-01-31 10:13:23

Regarding the use of units, I find that metric units are generally convenient and more widely recognized, although I do like to employ unofficial units like the millibar and g/L as well.  Perhaps we could have an article with a table of conversion factors for the senior Americans?  (Junior ones tend to already be on the same page with the metric system...)  I considered separate articles for each unit, and actually wrote one for "millibar", but it's really too much trouble when you can just refer them to a table or an encyclopedia.

I mean, seriously, in the future there might be enough information on NewMars Wiki to transform it into some kind of Colonist's Manual for Mars. At least, I hope so. It would be great to have everything about Mars on the wiki.

I am strongly considering this as a guideline for my own work with the Wiki.

We're making room for so many other creative projects in our wiki.  Perhaps an engineering analysis or two would make a nice addition?

#218 Re: Liberum Olympia » Mining New Mars » 2006-01-24 18:46:49

*gooooooogles*

Yay for the ol' grey cells!  big_smile  http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html

A perfect beginning.  Thank you!

#219 Re: Liberum Olympia » Categories. » 2006-01-20 15:22:56

They're great!

Hmm...  It seems the New Mars wiki could find some use as a pathfinder.  Much easier to build than an encyclopedia, and the wiki format could be used to expand on information unavailable elsewhere. 

BTW: Categories and articles can have duplicate names, and categories can also include reference links to articles.

But what I don't get... when for instance I go here: http://www.newmars.com/wiki/index.php/Mars and at the bottom i see: "category: planets" ... why is that link red?  :? it isn't empty....

It isn't red any more.  I had one do that to me, too.  I finally made it quit by re-saving the category discussion.

#221 Re: Liberum Olympia » Mining New Mars » 2006-01-18 11:25:19

Does anyone know of any good online textbooks that are available for free?

#222 Re: Not So Free Chat » Uh.. I thought we were going to Mars within the Decade ? » 2006-01-12 16:27:12

In the meantime, I have no real objection to continuing the old American tradition of annexing Mexican land.   big_smile

And don't worry about clark, now's about the time he'll verbally brutalize you a bit and argue you to a standstill. It's kind of an unofficial New Mars hazing.   lol


lol ROTFL! 

*Sigh!*  Okay, I finally stopped laughing long enough to type. 

What we're seeing from Mexico is ultimately just another economically driven mass migration.  Sure, the Mexican government is responsible for driving its people out of their own country, and we're going to suffer a little for it.   So what?  Contrary to the current propaganda, we can absorb the influx.

In the end, they're just the new Irish.  In fifty years, their descendents will be running the country, and they'll be so assimilated that nobody will care. 

Bienvenidos to America.   8)

Would God we might see such a migration to Mars some day....

#223 Re: Liberum Olympia » Mining New Mars » 2006-01-12 15:44:22

Yes, that's a good way to approach it.

BTW: why/how do you post as Guest in this forum? (I take it you're C.M. Edwards?) Can't you get in otherwise?

:shock: Cripes!  It let me do that?  :oops:

:idea:  :twisted:

Yes, I started this thread.  It appears that all I did was come in from a terminal where the "Remember Me" flag on the login screen was not set.

#224 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Earth Atmospherics/Weather » 2006-01-06 16:10:29

From the US National Hurricane Center at 4PM EST today:

I SUPPOSE IT IS ONLY FITTING THAT THE RECORD-BREAKING 2005 ATLANTIC
HURRICANE SEASON ENDS WITH A RECORD BREAKING STORM. TODAY... ZETA
SURPASSED 1954 ALICE #2 AS THE LONGEST-LIVED TROPICAL CYCLONE TO
FORM IN DECEMBER AND CROSS OVER INTO THE NEXT YEAR. ZETA WAS ALSO
THE LONGEST-LIVED JANUARY TROPICAL CYCLONE. IN ADDITION...ZETA
RESULTED IN THE 2005 SEASON HAVING THE LARGEST ACCUMULATED CYCLONE
ENERGY...OR ACE... SURPASSING THE 1950 SEASON. SO... UNTIL THE 2006
SEASON BEGINS... UNLESS ZETA SOMEHOW MAKES AN UNLIKELY MIRACLE
COMEBACK... THIS IS THE NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER SIGNING OFF FOR
2005... FINALLY.

FORECASTER STEWART

FORECAST POSITIONS AND MAX WINDS

INITIAL      06/2100Z 23.4N  50.3W    25 KT...DISSIPATING
12HR VT     07/0600Z 24.0N  52.4W    25 KT...REMNANT LOW

I think the NHC's running out of things to say in their public advisories.  Hopefully we'll have at least a few months until "Alphonso".  Don't quote me on that, though...

#225 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Best Moon For A Manned Expecition To Uranus? » 2006-01-02 19:34:18

That depends.  The boldest landing target for a manned expedition to Uranus is probably Uranus itself.  The planet's gravity is low enough that the orbital velocity range is about the same as Earth's, and its magnetic field is about the same intensity as Earth's.  An airship in the Uranian atmosphere would probably survive quite nicely.

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