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#126 Re: Space Policy » Primary space politics » 2008-04-26 16:26:26

You should have vote to Kucinich. ;-) Now it is too late.

#127 Re: Human missions » New Moon Direct » 2008-04-26 16:06:14

A tunnel boring machine also takes an incredible amount of manpower and spare parts to operate on Earth. It will be a long time before one is functioning on the moon.

The total automatization of tunnel construction in Earth is now under investigation to make superstructures like build larger and deepers tunnels where is difficult to grant the air at construction time.

#128 Re: Human missions » Venus First » 2008-04-26 15:59:54

Terraforming is an unpractical waste of resources. All humans have to is subsist from the resources that are available in the solar system in sustainable and rational way. All we need is enough water to drink, enough  air to breate, enough food to sustain.

The idea behind the terraforming is that although we need a lot of resources, energy and time to make it done, when the terraforming will be done, no new resources is needed to sustain the terraforming.
The Earth is in a "eternal" cycle of self recycling. Only energy, our sun, is needed.

And this energy will run out some day. And a lot of time before, the solar system will change to make the life in Earth impossible, if we don't work to change with geoingeniering (perhaps massive, like move planets).

The matter is eternal if we don't transform into energy, so move matter between bodies of the solar system or change the chemical form of this will not exahust the resources.
Terraforming is a great idea but requires that we think like a species, and we works to make a better place in the universe although we and a lot of future generations don't see the results.

#129 Re: Human missions » Venus First » 2008-04-22 07:25:45

Fake Gravity? We are restricted to real physics, not science fiction. The only artificial gravity is centripetal force by rotation. To avoid getting dizzy you require a large radius, which can be done for a spacecraft enroute, but not in an atmosphere. Energy loss to drag would be expensive. As for the moon or asteroids, are you seriously expecting astronauts to live in a giant merry-go-round? That significantly complicates the design, and would be an impediment to entering/leaving.

Moon is now without atmosphere. I'm sure that a structure could be constructed rotating over other pushed over a superconductor (to avoid friction) and using electromagnets to gain the speed loose.

The structure would be like a curved cone to make the floor always perpendicular to the sum of real gravity and centrifugal force.

This structure could be constructed in a subterranean cave to avoid dust and have greater protection.

#130 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2008-04-22 07:06:04

Though we'd have to have pretty powerful Fusion reactors to make Argon. Iron is Atomic weight 56 and only the really big stars can fuse up to it.

Fusions over iron are endothermic. But if we use a mixture of light and heavy atoms, it could be work (for example, use multiple D+D and have some heavy atoms in the same plasma which absorbs some energy to fuse in a endothermic reaction).

But I proposed before something more easy. Transmutate using neutron radiation. Some fusions reactions generate a neutron radiation that could be used to transmutate near elements in the periodic table.
I was talking about to use fusion as neutron radiation, but other options could be feasible. Fision, use natural neutron radiation at very close position to the sun (using a great surface), etc.

We are at the infancy of nuclear energy and technology. It is like talking about big plane engines in the times of the first steam machine.
We don't have net fusion energy yet.

#131 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2008-04-20 12:18:15

Argon? It's naturally present on the Moon, but in what quantities I don't know.

Probably too little, but Argon is far more abundant that Xenon or Krypton (Argon could be generated by fusion while heavier elements that Iron are not).
I suppose that with argon, if is enough heavy for moon, we could recolect it in different places of the Solar System.

With viable and economic transmutation, argon abundance would be guarranteed because chlorine is abundant.

#132 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2008-04-20 11:50:01

Perhaps the idea of iodine could be changed by bromine (more abundant that iodine) to transmute into krypton.
Is Krypton enough heavy? I'm not sure.

I think that transmutation of elements will became a valuable tool in a medium future where fusion energy will be used at a great scale.

Midoshi was right that with deuterium-deuterium we had to much energy per neutron but I sure that we will make another designs of reactors specially used for massive transmutation of elements.

#133 Re: Intelligent Alien Life » Why is the Universe silent? » 2008-04-19 12:53:16

Perhaps the channel of comunication is not appropriate.

Some people believe that electromagnetic radiation interfere too much with living beings so, if a new faster method (faster than light particules for example) is developed and it could be easily adapted to small devices, electromagnetic comunications could be deprecated by advanced civilizations.

#134 Re: Human missions » Venus First » 2008-04-19 12:33:13

Terraforming is a slow process in better case.

If we talk about colonization, i think that any subterranean colony is easy to construct that a floating like the propositions for Venus

A subterranean site and enough deep is protected from ratiation and could be    sustained artifially. Light, air, even gravity using artificial pseudogravity with rotation in a cone rotating building (like space torus, but with partial gravity, the geometric form was a cone).

I think the best place for a colony is the moon, because colonization will be maked using controled remote robots and we are at Earth enough near to control robots very similar to real time.

The experience in total autonomous closed colonies could be easily exported to Mars.

But I see Mars the most attractive place to live (with exception of Earth, of course) in medium times, because is the better place to build outer domes colonies where living could be enough comfortable.

#135 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2008-04-19 11:53:36

Yeah... You are right.
It's too much Iodine. I think that the fusion was not the problem in the future with a little more advancement using other fuels that generates little energy per neutron produced.

But iodine is the big problem. Altought it is more abundant that xenon, create this atmosphere requires a large amount of mass.

Ok... which alternatives we have?

Requisites:
- Heavy molecule, enough to be retained on Moon and reach 1 atmosphere of pressure
- Very stable. It must tolerate great temperature without break (at high altitude, the temperature could change a lot)
- Not a powerful greenhouse gas. We don't want another Venus
- Chemically neutral (we don't want a corrosive atmosphere)
- Enough abundance in Solar System
- As little toxic as possible

Heavy noble gases are ideal except in the abundance. sad

Another alternatives?

#136 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2008-04-19 10:53:57

Some calculations

We desire a atmosphere pressure like Earth.

Source of units: Wikipedia

Pressure (p) = 101,325 Pascals
Moon surface (s)= 3.793E7 km² = 3.793E13 m²
Moon gravity (a) = 1.622 m/s²

Using gravity as reference of force (is not totally correct as atmosphere has height and not all gases is at the same force)

p=m*a/s
m=p*s/a= 101,325*3.793E13/1.622~=2,37E18 Kg

Wow... It is a lot of mass

#137 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2008-04-19 04:08:47

Hi Spaniard, welcome to New Mars.

Thanks.

Transmutation is fairly energy intensive though.

I know but this is the great part of this.

Xenon could be generated as a byproduct of neutronic fusion like deuterium-deuterium fusion.
Neutronic fusion require some materials shielding the reactor. If we used compounds that contains iodine, it will be converted into xenon.
Creating xenon would not consume energy. Xenon would became a free gift from using neutronic fusion.

#138 Re: Terraformation » Impractical way to cool Venusian Atmosphere. » 2008-04-18 20:32:20

My way

First, make a group of robots with replication capability to the asteroid belt.
Make propulsors with fusion energy enough powerfull to move asteroids to go to Venus and put it in orbit.

Make a lot of gas ballons (with helium obtained from fusion energy used to propulsion and the work of robots) to put it in high elevation, where the temperatures are no enought to damage them.

Make so much ballons that covered a lot of the planet. The ballons will be coated with a high reflection material (like aluminium) that should make Venus to reflect a lot of solar light into space.
This should lower the surface temperature. I hope enought to make robots work permanently on the surface (perhaps only on the poles). I hope that
The darkness would not be a problem because the machines used other form of energy (fusion).

The robots would construct on surface factories to make more robots and make carbon absorbers. This machines will release a lot of oxigen. Carbon will be "secuestrated" converting into a solid and stable material, like nanotubes or diamons.
This tecnology is now available, but is very energy intensive. With fusion, this would not be a problem.
An atmosphere with Earth like temperatures and a lot of oxigen, should be  destroy the sulfuric acid.
If not exist enough nitrogen, it could be imported from the moons of Jupiter or Saturn. Another alternative, if advanced fusion was ready, it could be transmutate carbon into nitrogen throught protium-carbon fusion as in stars (far away from current technology, so import is the first alternative).
Oxigen+nitrogen+CO2 extraction+ballons = Cold planet
With enought CO2 removed, some ballons could be removed and return partial light to Venus.

In last place, we could import a lot of water from Kuiper belt.

#139 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2008-04-18 19:06:53

I think that Xenon atmosphere is a great idea.

Not in a terraforming sense. Moon is too small to retain a breathable atmosphere. But a dense atmosphere would make Moon easier to colonize.

The atmosphere is a good shield for small meteorites. Allow to transfer heat from the cool side to the hot side of Moon. Machines work better with air because heat could be dissipated throught convection or conduction plus always existent radiation.
Domes will be a lot more secure if the pressure is near or the same inside and outside it. Leaks of air will be reduced too (even more if outside is at more pressure that inside, because the air push into). Because xenon is not toxic, possible leaks are not critical if enough oxigen is retained inside the dome.

Without atmosphere, transparent and slight domes are too much difficult and we will use underground colonies the first times. But this colonies are closed boring places, and far less attractive to live in.

Where xenon could be taken? Well, make an atmosphere, like terraforming, is always a long time task.
Xenon is probably almost always in form of gas, so probably we could not found it in enough amount outside planets. So, or we collected from gigant  planets (very deep in atmosphere, so really hard to recover it) or we found it on unpredictable places, or it will not be enough xenon to make this artificial atmosphere.

Another possibility could be make xenon artificially through transmutation of iodine with neutron radiation that I hope could be easily created with fusion reactors were became available.

Although iodine is a rare element too, because is found in compounds, exists a greater probability to found enough large deposits in some place of the solar system in solid forms, perhaps on the meteorites of the asteriod belt, that is very much easy to catch that extract from a gigant planet.

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