New Mars Forums

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
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So, who is going to kill us first, China or Robots?  I think this guy is a good dude, but many Australians have swallowed the line that Australia is only in Asia.  Australia is about as Asian as North America is.

Anyway, I do not take China for a fool. 

Some of my original thinking is that Industrial Mentality came from the Indus Civilization and migrated into greater Asia, and somewhat into Europe.

Typically, the city line, Dublin<>London<>Paris<>Rome<>Athens<>Egypt.  So, the "West" did come somewhat out of Egypt.  These cities seem to foster arrogant rulers who, have contempt for those who work with hands.  Even so, Egypt once did amazing works.  It is a puzzle.  It is hard to get the fancy dandies who feed on the western peoples to see industrial people as worthy, as their whole game is to belong to a collective superior people above others.

So, yes I am not surprised if the people from the Indus are rather good at industry.

We will have to see how this works.  I think that balance is always the best way.  Probably North America will revive it's own Indus inheritors, and retain tolerance for the fancy dandies.  There might have to be some fancy spankings for them though, if they insist on doing stupid games, then the saying is "Stupid Prizes".

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I would never say that I am no longer interested in Starship.  I do want to see it do it's LEO achievements at the very least.  And I think that they did well to go to stainless steel.

But I am extremely interested in what offshoots could come from Neutron, with its dominantly Carbon makeup.

Again, I think the logic of Starship has merit, and that bigger will likely be better, but it is going to be a big risk to develop but even so have very big rewards.

The Neutron, at its size, will offer many relaxations on launch sites, I expect.  And I do think that it could have 1st Stage flyback retrograde, after refilling from a at sea landing platform.  Not needing huge launch towers on a barge maybe a big win at that size.  My impression is that that is the case with Neutron.

While I understand that at first the goal will be to make money by launching hardware to orbit.

But I have some further speculation of perhaps a no-payload launch scheme(s).

Pause.....Coffee.....

Two possible schemes:
1) Carbon/Argon.
2) Carbon/Carbon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Lab_Neutron
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So, 13 tons payload to LEO, but also the 2nd stage's mass as well, if you repurpose it.

So, with #1 (Carbon/Argon), you could extend the 2nd stage, to include a 3rd propellant tank for Argon. 
With Starship, you could refill, the three tanks, or maybe just the Argon tank.  (Options).

If you have electric rocket propulsion methods in orbit, then you can exercise those options.

I have already mentioned how I think that Carbon could have great value on the Moon, at the very least.

If you have a collection of modified Neutron 2nd stages, which have brought Argon up to LEO, or if Starship brings the three propellants to LEO, Methane, Oxygen, Argon, then you can assemble a "Barge" of materials.  You would have the electric propulsion device, solar or nuclear, a collection of modified Neutron upper stages, and you could then include a depot or two, which being highly protective in nature can contain Methane, Oxygen, and Argon.

Then this whole thing can ascend to higher orbits for whatever purposes are desired.  Probably without human crew, so the Van Allen Belts would not be so much trouble.

If....The Neumann Drive can be upsized, then you could do the 2) Carbon/Carbon version of this.

Let's suppose that instead of Argon for propellant Carbon is the electric rocket propellant.  It might need humanoid robots to feed the pieces of Carbon into the drive.

Anyway then the Barge can go to the Moon orbits.

For both cases #1, or #2, suppose that Starship could lift multiple landing leg assemblies for used Neutron 2nd Stage devices, so that they could land on the Moon.

For each landing of a Neutron 2nd stage, the legs and any cargo would be left behind on the Moon as a Carbon rich asset.  Such landing leg assemblies might also include plastic components containing Hydrogen and Carbon, and even perhaps "Edible Structures" which with preparation could easily be made into food.  NASA has studied "Edible Structure" in the past.

Edible structure would likely include Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and maybe a bit of Nitrogen.

There are desert animals that do not have to drink water.  They just make water or extract water from their food.

So, if you balance things out, a human(s) can eat food, and oxidize it, and some of the Hydrogen will be incorporated into water formation, and some of the Carbon will be oxidized into CO2 formation.  The somewhat disgusting process would be to recycle the urine and humidity from perspiration from humans to make fresh water.  Then to make a soup from that water and dissolved "Edible Structure".  (Sort of a Pee Soup).

Well, they do pretty much that on the ISS now.  So, you don't have to bring tanks of water to the Moon, just edible structure landing legs for "Pee-Soup".

But I am not wild about huge amounts of humans on the Moon, only useful humans, and lots of robots.
So, Carbon Parts, Plastic Parts, and "Edible Structure Parts".   As landing legs for the Neutron 2nd stage devices.

The Neutron 2nd Stages would be used until they became inoperable, and then if possible, the Carbon in them and any Hydrogen in them would be recaptured for repurpose.

The Depot in orbit would fill the 2nd stages with Oxygen and Methane for a landing.  They would overfill the Methane, so that the ship could go back to orbit again.  Ideally Oxygen from the Moons raw materials would be available to refill the Oxygen to the 2nd stages.  Ideally the Oxygen might be overfilled, so that the 2nd stages reaching a low lunar orbit could use the excess Oxygen to land again.

Maybe the 2nd stages would be good for 10 trips, so that would be 10 sets of "Edible Structure" landing legs, plus any payload the ships would bring down to the Moons surface.

So, this would most likely be a good way to build bases on the Moon where no local water is available.  Perhaps the Equator, as the Equator is easier to access as per amount of propellants needed.

Perhaps eventually their could even be a Carbon Starship 2nd stage, so very sized up.

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I think it can be true that it might be correct to respond with the question "What is the cost of sending Carbon to the Moon?" with the question "What is the worth of Carbon on the Moon?".

Carbon on the Moon would open many doors.  As always Carbon seems to be a magic substance, doing so many things at times.

It is not so much a question of how the Moon lacks things, as how many things can be opened up if you import Carbon to the Moon.

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George Friedman is one of my favorites:  https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote: George Friedman Predicts the Next 50 Years of Global Affairs and the Importance of Space Domination
YouTube
Tucker Carlson
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I have learned about the problem of Specialization from his articles.  Basically, after WWII we had "Generalist Thinkers" who while alive kept the country in line.  This allowed us to prosper with specialists until the Generalists died off.

Now we have had the problem of specialists trying to run things, but they only understand their own specialty, so they are not suitable to be "Generals".

As it happens, I think that we have some fairly broad generalists in government now, somehow.

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I think I will need to review this diagram.  Looks like I screwed it up.  I'm not sure.  But I don't have time now.

China is indeed surrounded, but everyone is surrounded on the surface of a sphere.

But the importance of India to us, among other things such as marvel of their culture, is that if China is not nice to us they have to wonder what India might do.  And if China is not nice to India, they have to wonder what North America might do.

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With the various notions added to this topic, now I would like to drift back towards the topic title.

I believe that SpaceX will eventually be successful with a Stainless-Steel Starship, including propellant tankers, and that may support a whole host of other things, both from SpaceX and other vendors.

As for SLS, eventually it will retire.  Apollo did, the Space Shuttle did.

Dr. Zubrin and others have expressed opinion that Starboat would be good for Mars and for the Moon.  But SpaceX does not want to divert from what is on it's plate now, and I do not blame them for that.

But at least for the Moon, could we put together a reasonable substitute for Starboat, using "Leftovers".

Possible Leftovers:
-Orion Capsule.
-Dragon Capsule
-Falcon 9 2nd stage
-Neutron 2nd stage
-2nd Stage of Terran-R

Also, I might add 2nd stage of NOVA from Stoke Space.

Various engines, many Methane fuel, One RP-1, One Hydrogen.

Some of the above are abandoned to burn in the atmosphere, after one use.  However, if Starship(s) do emerge, it may be possible to bring propellants that can efficiently be used in electric rockets could perhaps collect these to a construction point in an orbit, being somewhat efficient.  There, perhaps some reuses for the Moon may make sense, possibly collecting them into assemblies.

Many of these could be brought to orbit as fresh items using Starship as an alternative.

I would think to resort to this as it may be a way to go smaller scale for the Moon, while not having to totally develop new hardware.

I would wonder if one of the Capsules could actually be hosted on a collection of 2nd stages, that would be able to actually land on the Moon and then ascend back to orbit.  Something like that could perhaps be serviced in Lunar Orbits, from an orbital Starship.

Also, if robots are to be the main force of labor, then such machines may be able to land them on the Moon in special places as well.

I don't think it will be desired to create a large population of people on the Moon.

I do not think that Mars should wait too much for the Moon to develop, but if the Moon does develop then it may become useful to future Mars effort.

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OK, the previous post suggests a method to support operations on the Moon with Carbon from Earth, and a method perhaps to extract mass from the Moon to orbit for useful purposes.

But I am wondering about data centers on the Moon.  Probably solar energy runs them.

Well, here is an alternative.  Perhaps data centers in orbit of the Moon, where the chips come from Earth but the supporting mass may come from the Moon.  Radiation is a concern for that.  Perhaps on the surface of the Moon after all under significant shielding.

I have seen evidence that NASA has had a look radiator technology for the Moon.

https://engineering.tamu.edu/news/2024/ … re%20range.  Quote:

I would certainly look at the work of NASA on radiators on the Moon.

Chips are becoming more and more dense for computations vs. mass.  So, maybe the cost to ship them to the Moon would not be that prohibitive.  But you would need to be able to leverage moon raw materials to give support for the data centers that may be desired.

Again, the purpose of this would be to get a useful product from the Moon, using Moon energy, and matter.

A computational result transmitted from the Moon to Earth would be the product.  And of course, data would transfer from the Earth to the Moon.

This avoids using power supplied on Earth for data centers.  (I have nothing against that).

But the Moon would have an exportable product, which could help to support movement of goods and services between Earth<>Moon, using propulsive technologies.

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I found this: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

Of course I agree, but also have large notions involving various uses of Carbon related possibilies.

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A minor notion that has come to me is a magnetic Carbon catcher.

While a ship might bring Methane to the Moon which would have Carbon in it, and the ship would be in large part made of Carbon, it may also be possible to drop Carbon dust at an altitude and have it collected into a crater, before a ship lands.

OK, I think I am allowed to use this as it is an advertisement for a product: https://www.amazon.com/SPACECARE-Magnet … 373&sr=8-5  Image Quote:

So, an electromagnet(s) in a small crater might make a nice shock absorbing and cooling beard to allow Carbon particles to impact into.  By allowing to cool over time and then dropping Carbon, both the cold and the structure disruption may allow the Carbon to not vaporize too much.

Then you might separate the mixture using magnetics later to recover the Carbon and reuse the magnetic materials.

Carbon tolerates heat rather well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon
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So, really something you might retain on impact, especially if the magnetic "Beard" would do shock absorption and also be cold prior to impact.  The Moon should be able to produce Iron, Magnetite, and Nickle in fine particles for this purpose.  Warning, I think that upon impact the compression of the magnetic field may produce a counter EMF in the electromagnetics, which could be a source of damage???

Anyway if this could be pulled off, the fuel needed to land Carbon on the Moon might be reduced.

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I want to chase this around a bit more.

If we get to a situation where robot labor is on average 1/25th the cost of human labor and make spacecraft with that low cost labor, then the idea of exporting Carbon to the Moon becomes less silly.  Especially if the Carbon earns it way in transit, by being a great deal of the structure of the ship.

1/25th is just a number I pulled out of the air.  If SpaceX employees earn an average or $25.00 per hour, and robots can do much of the work for $1.00 per hour, then 1/25th perhaps.

A starship disposed of can lift ??? Tons to orbit.
https://payloadspace.com/payload-resear … iguration/
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But there are some unanswered questions.  1) A largely Carbon stripped down Starship would be lighter than a Stainless Steel one, so then >200 Tons, I presume.  2) By Expendable Starship do they expend the Superheavy also to get to 200 tons?  (I hope not).

Playing a game, if a Carbon Starship had 3 propellant tanks, then Oxygen, Methane, Argon.  If the ship could get to LEO with leftover, Oxygen, Methane, and all of the Argon, could an electric rocket in orbit hook up and escort the ship to a Moon orbit?  Then at the Moon orbit it might either have enough Oxygen to land or receive a fill of more Lunar Oxygen.
Then it would land on the Moon, perhaps the Equator or near so.  Ideally it would have left over Methane so that it might ascend again with a load of Lunar LOX, or so the Methane can be donated to surface operations.

(An Argon tank could probably be put into the nose section, I think.)

An alternate and lesser fuel to use can be Carbon Monoxide, but I think the desire would be to use Carbon on the surface of the Moon near the Equator.  Apparently, Carbon could also be used in a Neumann Drive, but Argon from Earth may work well.  Also, Neumann Drive could run on many types of Lunar substances.  Magdrive could run on Aluminum or Iron.

As for robot labor on the Moon, this should be of many sorts, and likely will become low cost, if it can be built at a reasonable price with Lunar and Imported Materials.

Ideally Oxygen could be lifted to Lunar Orbits, to fill Starships on their way to Mars, perhaps.
So, a Starship would leave LEO for the Moon orbits, with just the Oxygen needed for that, and then a safety margin.  It would then be refilled at the Moon orbits with the full amount of Oxygen needed.

It is possible that with electric propulsion it would also be possible to move LOX to LEO from the Moon.

Other exports from the Moon could be power to Earth, and maybe data centers on the Moon.

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If we could find an economical way to export Carbon to the Moon, this would help the Hydrocarbon industries.

If for instance Methane could go to a use where the Hydrogen would be stripped off and consumed to generate electricity, and the Carbon be made into spacecraft structure, then that might be a way to do it.  Of course I don't know how possible that is.  It might also be done for oil, particularly light oil.  But it might be possible that Coal mining could provide Carbon for export to the Moon.

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Due to previous posts, I am developing the notion of a dual Moon access process. 
1) Polar Water.
2) Carbon imported to the equator of the Moon.

1) Polar Water will often be a one time use item if it is to be used for rocket fuel.
2) Carbon though expensive to import, can be reused multiple times for an economic benefit, except if it is also used as a fuel.

A dry equator would not look very attractive to a human powered economy.  However, for a robot dominated economy, Carbon could be very helpful.  I do not say that polar water facilitated economies at the poles will not occur, but suggest that the Equator might be facilitated very nicely if Carbon can be imported at a reasonable price, for the merit it might have in processing Lunar materials.

In theory, based on Elon Musk's historical notions that Starship might be able to go SSTO, if it lacked a heat shield, legs, and a significant cargo, I will not rule SSTO out.

But more likely the model presented by Rocket Lab with a 2 Stage Neutron may be of value, if the 2nd stage could be repurposed.

I have argued that it could be possible to size up a 2nd stage primarily of Carbon, to launch on a modified Superheavy, by SpaceX.

In either case the 2nd stage given assistance could be used to do work in lifting cargo to LEO, and then the 2nd stages could be converted for a second mission to the Moon.

Using Electric rockets, it might be possible to fill the Oxygen Tanks of these devices with Argon, and the Methane tanks with Methane.  Then they would fly to the Moon orbits, and be refilled with Oxygen, perhaps from the Moon, and then they would land, perhaps at the equator of the Moon.

Solving boiloff will be desired.

The equator would primarily be populated by robots, but maybe just a few humans.  Water needs would be relatively small.  But for water needed, residual Methane might be reacted with Oxygen to create water, and CO/CO2.

If sufficient Methene were landed, then it might be possible to use these ships again to lift Lunar Oxygen to Lunar Orbits.  I believe that the equator of the Moon has an advantage over the poles for this activity.

Crashed or worn out ships might be recycled for their materials, including Carbon of course.

I see solar Pyrolysis of regolith, assisted by Carbon as a way to reduce Lunar ores of Oxygen.  Then the CO/CO2 produced, could be processed to recover the Carbon again, along with Oxygen.

I expect that the Carbon is not infinitely recyclable but might be reused many times.

I suppose that as soon as it might become possible to get Carbon from other parts of the solar system for a lower price then that might occur.

Keep in mind that one of the cost savers in this scheme is the presumed very low cost of robot labor on the Moon and also the Earth, which will drop the price of hardware, and reduce the cost of extracting materials from the Moon.

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https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … 4e26a538ca  Quote:

While male psychopaths are very much suspected, because women are the mothers of any children that exist, we seldom think that there could be trouble from female psychopaths.  I think those will be found in hive mind subgroups along with some of the males.

I think sometimes the only payment these people need is to know that they set someone else back in a cruel way.

A greed about pulling other people down while hoping that may get you into a more favorable situation.

I think one action of particular cruelty has been to convince women and some men that having children is not in their interest.  So, I think the problems are primarily caused by a cycle of promiscuous, opportunity being promoted, and yet to make all sex, including reproductive sex as wrong and even criminal.

Gentetic selfishness.  Interfering with the reproduction of others, in hopes of dominating the gene pool as to be a "Winner", and to be cruel to those you can deceive.  As for some of these people the suffering of others is a pleasure for their selves, giving them a sense of power.

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There are many ice slabs in the mid-latitudes of Mars.  Not nearly as thick as polar deposits, but still, it might be possible to do a more modest but similar trick in those.

https://www.sciencealert.com/new-resear … ter-liquid

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So, maybe with a roof of synthetic Pykrete, chambers which might accommodate some sort of spin gravity device might be possible.

Here is a plan for a minimum sized synthetic gravity device.  I would hope that larger than that could be accommodated in the 90 meter thick ice slabs of the mid-latitudes of Mars: https://futurism.com/the-byte/device-ar … vity-space

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So, if you dug a hole in the ice slab, and then mixed that ice water with fibers, and then refroze it onto a dome, perhaps a sufficient large chamber would be possible.

Of course then the Ice content has to be kept stable from melting or evaporating by various methods of cold and vapor barriers.  But something might be possible.

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