New Mars Forums

The first time I saw an inversion was the Blue Origins Moon lander, with propellant tanks on top, engines and crew below.

So, this inversion might be somewhat similar.

As the cylindrical bottom part does not all have to be pressurized, extendable landing legs could be contained in the cylinder shell along with Header Tanks, Avionics, and maybe a smaller crew/cargo compartment.

This could allow for a tower catch and yet the legs could be in there to extend out of the bottom skirt in the event that was desired.

The cylinder reduced of the dry mass of the main tanks, might be lighter, so that the landing legs don't need to be as substantial.

While sub-orbital for the cylinder and small engines for the Main Tanks is an option, going full orbital with the Main Tanks might be an option as well in which case the Main Tanks will not need any substantial form of propulsion.

The Main Tanks also will likely need subdividing as when you disconnect the Main Tanks from the cylinder, the propellants in the tanks feeding the raptors, needs protection or it would be lost to space.

So, this would add complexity.  Even so, extra structure would simply be more metal to orbit.

There would be multiple options to transfer propellants between chambers to prepare for separation.  Or you would simply burn the main chambers until near empty, and separate.  Other chambers could hold various fluids/propellants.

If Magdrive is able to run on an Aluminum/Lithium Alloy, then it might be able to come down into sub-orbital and take charge of the Main tanks.  But it would have to be very powerful engines to do that.

There would only be the trip time from the launch from Florida for instance to the reentry half way around the world.

It is a fun set of Puzzles at least though.

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Thanks for the contribution Caliban.

Here is another concept from my bag of tricks from the past in this case.

The Diagram is not the greatest but....

If you create a reservoir of ice blocks in a basin, then....

Cover it with a Poly sheet, then....

Melt the ice below leaving a ice layer above, then...

Fill "Poly-Pollows with water or an oil, then.....

Lay them like tiles over the poly which is over the ice, then....

Let the fluid in the Poly-Pillows cool/freeze, then....

You have a repairable surface which will protect the ice from sublimation.

The pillows can be lifted up for replacement/repairs, and the paysheet underlayment can be patched/replaced.

As the poly or other transparent/translucent plastic ages/yellows you can repair replace, and recycle the yellowed/aged plastic into something else.

For the underwater "Cone-Home" you would need to have something to make a shell out of and then heap dredged soil over the cone, then fill it with air:

In these things, an attempt is to make as good as is possible with relatively simple and abundant materials.

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So, these can be added to potential "Para Tera Forming" tricks.

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One thing I have noticed over time is that the Mars polar areas are regarded as too cold, but for Europa, some people imagine putting settlements in its ice, and artificial lighting in it's oceans.

Mars polar ice caps surely have more solar energy than Europa.  It is rather seasonal of course.

But it is a wonderful thing that large masses of ice exist under the soil in the temperate zones, and even near the tropical zone.

Some people now consider that limited melt water is thought to be possible by some in temperate zones where, ice is exposed, and has perhaps just a little maybe 1% dust in it.  Exposed ice at the poles is too cold at those high latitudes.
At very low latitudes, exposed ice is likely to evaporate too fast for significant water pockets in the ice.

One way to create an actual biosphere just under the surface of Mars would be to add additional energy into exposed ice.
But if you shine more visible light onto the ice you may heat the surface too much, and it may tend to evaporate.  But if you were to microwave the ice from the surface or from orbit, you may leave the surface ice more protected, and yet promote melting deeper in the ice.  And natural sunlight might pass though the ice into the melted water.

We might create a photo-aquifer such as may exist at times in the ice mass of Greenland: https://science.nasa.gov/earth/water-on … nland-ice/
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Rivers of water can run on the Mars of today.  They would be covered in ice, and would suffer fairly high evaporation losses, but they could exist if you had the melt water to make them.

And artificial aquifer in the ice caps of Mars could provide such rivers.  Things like ice dams could form, so perhaps also lakes.

Keep in mind that any water evaporated into the atmosphere would return to the poles for the most part.  So the polar ice mass would not particularly diminish by this activity.

The result of this would likely be lakes and even seas at the perimeter of the ice caps.

Keep in mind that microwaves that push heat into the ice would also tend to unsettle frozen CO2.

And with the use of other terraform methods, it could be that the air pressure over the Mars ice caps might double or more.  This would make liquid water just a little more possible.

So, anyway, down the line it might be possible to partially liquify the ice caps of Mars using microwaves, and to form significant pockets of water around them.

Of course if nuclear fusion becomes possible, then the nuclear fuel will be in the water, and at a proportion much larger than for Earth.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adm7499
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When American science insists that this ratio shows that the bulk of water has evaporated into space, they may be correct for the water that has been on the surface of Mars for billions of years.  But they may not be talking about the huge oceans of water that are now thought to be deep in cracks in the crust of Mars.

But it does not so much matter anyway.  The fuel is already concentrated to higher than Earth levels for the water that  would be easy to reach.

But there is a huge mass of ice burried deep in the Mars equator: https://www.space.com/mars-water-ice-eq … ozen-ocean  Quote:

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If heat could be projected into it the ice may melt and you would get an artesian eruption of water creating a lake.

If you covered the created ice with domes, you could reduce evaporation rates and collect more heat to inject into the ice.  It might be somewhat unstable, so it needs some work.

I have thought that perhaps you could run an electric current into the ice from two or more grounding posts.

But of course I do not favor melting all ice, as I think it can be useful as Structure.

For instance I have various notions of such methods of structure: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 69#p232069  Image Quote:

But ice structure and water structure are a bit incompatible, so they might be joined by tunnels and vaults in the bedrock of Mars.

So then "The Boring Company".

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Here is a basic diagram of the concept:

By keeping O2 at a minimum over the ice and over the dome, it is thought that the damage to the dome will be kept minimized.

The average Mars air pressure being 7 millibar, ice will be stable if the dome prevents the winds from snatching the moisture from the surface of the ice.  Inside of the dome even a pressure of 20 millibars would further stabilize the ice.

Here again are the resources I have collected over time: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 13#p190313

Here is the pressure calculator: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

If we keep the water or ice on the surface of the pond below 17.5 degrees C, the water will not boil.

So, according to the video in post #1 of this topic, ice can block some UV, based on the dust in it, and on the size of the ice crystals.

Normally it would be preferred to keep ice on top of the pond.  But periodically it would be possible to melt the ice and reform it, perhaps overnight.  You could add sunblock to the ice even, perhaps.

Metal Oxides might help: https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/healt … tal-oxides

While Antarctica has natural lakes that allow photosynthesis under ice, the conditions for Mars will be less favorable.

Lake Vanda of Antarctica: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vanda

For Mars, the light is more attenuated, and dust wants to cover the dome or ice exposed, and not only that but global dust storms will also block light.  It is less likely that direct sunlight though the ice could keep the lake thawed.  But that is OK, we can use the lake to store heat from any heat source we have such as concentrating mirrors, or extra power from solar panels, or from nuclear.  Nuclear fission is the one that is real at this time, but I am anticipating that  some company will get a practical fusion energy method within the next 10 or maybe even 50 years.

Similarly filtered sunlight might drive life in underwater greenhouses, but I anticipate artificial chemosynthesis to be supplemental to growing the crops.  The production of extra Oxygen, Acetate, Methane, and Hydrogen would likely be possible from power sources such as photovoltaic, solar-thermal, or nuclear.

But I think that a combination of sunlight and chemicals would provide the broadest possibility for various types of "Crops" to be cultivated.

Where Algae, and Cyanobacteria are simple options, I have also often proposed Hydrilla for various reasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrilla
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But it could be possible to put an air filled farm container in the pond that could grow things like Hemp:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemp
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If you could grow hemp, then it is likely you could grow garden vegetables.

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A reasonable caution (th).  Still, kdb512's broad picture provides a canvas onto which we might hope to apply a Rotating Detonation Engine in time.

Both the engine, and the lightweight materials rebel against the stipulation that the Earth is almost too massive for chemical rockets to get to orbit.  We tend to dismiss the Earth as a source of cost appropriate materials for activities in space.

No blame to you (th) to express such a concern, it is appropriate, but I am trying to find a loophole in reality to get just a bit better in the game.

Now, if I bring this material into this topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 54#p232154
Quote: OK I will try to go a bit further with this:

So, possibly SpaceX could make a propellent transporter like this.

Blue Origin might try to make a "Jarvis" like this.

Relatively Space who has abandoned a reusable 2nd stage, might eventually try something like this.

If something like the Starship system were cut into three stages:
1) The Superheavy would be very close to what is being developed.
2) The Starship would be cut into a base part that would be a cylinder and have almost all of everything except for:
3) The Main Tanks, and perhaps a Rotating Detonation Engine.

Perhaps someday RDE's would replace the Raptors on Starship, but for now a small engine would be a good early method to explore the new technology.

The scheme is a bit different than the standard reuse or expend options for Starship.  Section #3 would be mass produced at a low cost, and put into orbit, the liquid propellants could go to a depot above LEO, and the materials of the tank may be reused in orbit to build structures or to provide propellants.  I had thought that the #3 main tanks might be made of an Aluminum/Lithium Alloy, but kdb512's option might have merit.

There have been imposed a form of logic that main tanks are of low value.  The Space Shuttle abandoned its main tank to destruction although far out ideas existed to bring it to orbit as an option and use it for something.

Vulcan has a similar logic where the 1st stage main tanks are to be discarded and the engines and avionics are to be saved, (Eventually in future versions), by an expandable one-time heat shield.

I want to put is backwards.  The main tanks for the 2nd stage still contain some of the liquid propellants, and in my opinion the tank walls if for instance of Aluminum/Lithium, may be useful to reform into orbital structure and/or to be made into propellants for Magdrive or Neumann Drive.  Having been lifted to such an altitude with so much cost and effort, the sensible thing is to bring them fully to orbit, perhaps with a small very efficient engine.

Perhaps with a "Rotary Detonation Engine".

In doing this we turn the wet and dry mass of the Main 2nd Stage tanks into value in and above LEO.

We also get rid of the task of bringing the main tanks back though reentry with heat shielding.

And I should explain my intentions for the portion of the 2nd Stage which would not be the Main Tanks or the Rotatating Detonation Engine.

The Cylinder Section of the 2nd Stage as shown in the drawing would need to come down though the air braking, using flaps just like a Starship but not having a pointed nose.  The Starship doe not so much glide as to do a sky-dive, so this may not be impossible.

I anticipate that the heat shield method could be active cooling with the Methane Tank having extra capacity to provide the coolant needed.

While this is a significant cost, even so we avoided having to use active cooling for the Main 2nd Stage Tanks, because we left them in orbit.

This version would be created specifically as it might efficiently provide both liquid propellants such as Methane, Oxygen, Argon, Hydrogen, but it's Aluminum/Lithium Structure may be relatively easy to cut into pieces and even melted and used in things like 3D print processes.

So, yes much more than the Rotating Detonation Engine are discussed, but it would be an important part of the whole process.

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So, that implies to me that over the next 50 years, the method of Starship will eventually be considered outdated.  But that does not mean that it is inappropriate now.

I imagine that it will be similar to how we may look at technology made 50 years ago.

But for now Stainless Steel and Raptors are likely to be competitive.  But as the other competition emerges, they will all have to try to improve their edge little by little.

With robotic labor hardware costs may go down, in which case building with lighter materials may become the sensible thing to do.

I am glad that there is room for better engines and lighter materials over time.

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Thanks for the post GW Johnson.

I very much think you are correct.

It is nice to know that the tower catch is possible, but what I think SpaceX needs two things just now ASAP,

1) Make the Starship system economically competitive with all other launchers.
2) Learn how to incorporate landing legs on their devices, as needed for Mars and the Moon.

I think they are looking hard at active cooling, so that might protect legs on the windward side.

They know their way around barges and such for Falcon 9.  So, probably they can do that and then go to tower catches if there are cases where it makes sense.

Should they want to spread their launch and landing systems around the planet, a "Ship", has some better control properties.  If they had a pad on some other nations soil, then there is always the danger of seizure, and ransom.  Probably a place like Australia would be relatively safe, but even certain parts of the Anglosphere, have been cuddling up with leftist countries and Archaic Cultures.

Archaic in the sense of not having developed the concept of the one existing with the plural, balanced against each other.

The distribution of power.

So, a landing barge being essentially a ship, could be serviced by a nearby nation commercially, but could in theory be in association with American and SpaceX powers.

Even if such a ship entered the coastal waters of a nation, I think that in peacetime circumstances, a nation could not legally lay possession of it.

And for economics, as mentioned Starship simply has to be a competitive system.  The idea of flying Superheavy 3 times a day is interesting, but it might be easier to simply make more Super heavies and fly them less often each.

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As it happens, I stumbled upon this today: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1Gs1WK  Quote:

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Video: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR  Quote:

Seems like it could change things in space as well.

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In posts #93 & #94, where a Starship like device were divided into 3 parts, my notion is that the 1st Stage and the lower part of the 2nd stage would benefit from the use of Stainless Steel.

The upper part of the 2nd stage could also be Stainless Steel, but I would think that it might be alternately possible to use the Aluminum/Lithium Alloy or Carbon as a lighter alternative.

Of the three, Stainless Steel, Aluminum/Lithium, and Carbon, the Aluminum/Lithium alloy may be the easiest to cut an melt, to make parts out of in orbit, and also perhaps to make propellant out of for a Magdrive, Neumann Drive, and for rare cases a ship drive using a small mass driver.

As for Fluids to be brought to orbit in the tankage, of course Hydrocarbon Fuels and Oxidizers, and Inert Gas propellants might be suitable.

If Oxygen could be moved from the Moon to LEO, then Hydrocarbons and Ingert Gas propellants would dominate and Oxidizers would be far less worth the trouble to lift from the surface of the Earth.

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OK I will try to go a bit further with this:

So, possibly SpaceX could make a propellent transporter like this.

Blue Origin might try to make a "Jarvis" like this.

Relatively Space who has abandoned a reusable 2nd stage, might eventually try something like this.

The Superheavy of SpaceX, is a cylinder that reenters the atmosphere deeper, and now doing it more sideways.

So, I argue that a Cylinder Reentry might work from Sub-Orbital or maybe even Full-Orbital.

It is starting to look like SpaceX is going to go to metal active cooling for a heat shield.

So, I understand they will want full Starships for various uses, even going to the Moon or Mars.  But if you are working with propellant launching, and if the skin of the tanks is valuable in space, then I argue that rather than to heat shield the main tanks and the cargo tanks and to use propulsion to bring the main tanks down, I suggest that it may pay off better to leave the tanks and what is left in them for propellants in orbit.

The Cylinder would be minus the main tanks dry mass, and would be used to bring the engines down, 6-9 of them for Starship, and the Avionics, and the Header Tanks.

As this would be lighter-the main tanks, then landing legs will not need to be as large, and if a catch tower used, then less stress on the catch tower.

Since the main tanks do not have to be actively cooled though the re-entry, then less fluid is used for active cooling.

If the Main Tanks have a small rocket motor to finish them to orbit, then the Cylinder might only do a half orbit and land half way around the planet where there might be a new spaceport with everything to launch it back again on a new stack to again do a sub-orbit.

If the main tanks have engines or not, a orbital tug can go and get the main tanks and bring it to a depot and a rendering platform where the tanks can be converted to other uses.

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I have some notions I want to try out.

Heat shielding of a 2nd stage appears to be a really nasty problem to solve.  I think it will be plenty of trouble to make a Starship with successful heatshield, to go to Mars and land and then come back to Earth and land.  I will not try to solve that. 

But what I would like to work on is method to get payload to LEO, with optimal results and reduced cost.

For this I propose to cut Starship 2nd stage into two parts, one upper part as payload without heat shield, and the lower part with heat shield and entering the atmosphere with 2 skirts, as a cylinder.  The upper skirt to mate with the main propellant tanks and payloads, and the lower skirt as now to shelter the engines during re-entry.

The question will be can a cylinder enter the atmosphere and be protected like the Starship, and land like the Starship.

Pause.............

The upper part of the structure then could be having no heat shield provision as heat shielding is costly, and the upper structure may have it's own value in orbit.

But we would probably like to have a means to bring the engines and some other parts back to the surface of the Earth.

This has parallels to many other attempts at spacecraft.

-The Space Shuttle abandoned it's main tank prior to reaching full orbit.  And the tank was not of a very desirable material anyway.

-Vulcan intends to abandon it's propellant tanks to the atmosphere, and then save the 1st stage engines.

-The Blue Origins Moon lander will have propellant tanks on top, which will not be abandoned, but is similar to what I propose.

So, for this version the emphasis is in lifting things to orbit, not in bringing things back from orbit except the upper stage propulsion unit.

This would have the most merit in the case for the part left in orbit having greater value in orbit than to retrieve it to the surface of the Earth.

You could of course put some kind of engine on the part left in orbit and you would then have a 3 stage starship.

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Platnum from the Moon, it seems: https://www.msn.com/en-us/science/astro … r-AA1GjeS8  Quote:

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Well, that is a thing that the public might grasp as worth an effort.  And then the other things about the Moon can ride along.

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