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#9276 Re: Terraformation » Venus » 2012-12-28 11:25:38
I have a small thing to add concerning Venus which might help.
I think that mirrors placed in orbit could create hurricane like weather patterns. The purpose would be to poke a hole in the cloud cover, to let wavelengths out that otherwise cannot get out. Kind of like punching holes in the cover of a pot. It should draw dryer air up to displace the sulphuric acid clouds to the sides. The mirrors could be of a selected pigmentation so that they do not introduce solar energy below the cloud deck level.
It might also be possible to introduce asteroid dust into those openings, in the hopes that it would enter the sulphuric acid clouds at the sides and moderate the PH to a level more favorable to life, and additionally fertilize the hoped for H2O mists.
This might assist the notions of converting the atmosphere to organic solids. Maybe.
#9277 Life support systems » Electric Vegitation » 2012-12-28 10:12:40
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Here is an image I spared myself very little time to create:
'A' is where a fan can suction air out of the enclosure. Note that to the bottom right is an inlet to allow air in.
'B' indicates a shingle like plate which can be given a negitive static electric charge, relative to the ambient outside electric charge.
'C' is a moisture cover, which also should be given UV blocking abilities.
Below are two electrical insulating struts.
The atmosphere of mars being less than 1% that of Earth, and also being colder than Earth, has less moisture content in general.
I believe that the atmospheric column contains 1/13,000th the moisture, but could be mistaken there.
However in the cold of night the atmosphere can saturate with moisture, so a method of collection can be considered.
Since the air is 6 millibars thick in general, and so less than 1/100 th as thick as the Earths, the fan should be able to change out the volume of the enclosure many times faster than it could in Earth's atmosphere.
The negitive electric charge could come from the rotor blade of the fan which would suction air out at point 'E', in the manner of a helicopter blade, which can generate charges up to 40,000 volts? This does not restrict the use of some other method of charging 'A'.
The green squiggle is intended to depict lichen which would also have a (-) charge relative to the ambient outside. The negitive charge should actually cause a film of pressurized atmosphere to surround the lichen parts, raising the potential for condensation, either of frost, or even liquid water at favorable temperatures.
Additionally, a negitive charge tends to attract (+) charged water molecules.
During the night when air is being drawn through the enclosure, the lichen should retain the relative properties mentioned above to the air being drawn over them.
The result should be frost, if the night air has a saturation of moisture. The enclosure cover 'B' should also collect frost.
In the morning as things warm up, the fan can shut off, and the frost should warm, and well below zero, the lichen should be able to draw in moisture. If the negitive charge has still maintained a static air pressure film over the lichen, it should even be possible for liquid water to form, and be absorbed by the lichen. Then as the system drys out, and the moisture leaves the lichens, and is present in the enclosure air in a concentrated form, it should be possible to suction it out into a collection device to be condensed for other uses.
I am aware that Lichen is slow growing, and do not know if it can be engineered to grow faster.
However, the purpose of this machine is to collect moisture, and the lichen are a convenient afterthought, as they have the natural properties to provide increased condensation surface, and also to absorb moisture.
Anyway if this scheme actually works and is practicle, it would increase the possibility that settlements could be at lower lattitudes then otherwise might be required by the need for water.
Pressurization of other plants seems a possiblity, but they cannot endure the extreemly cold Martian nights, so condensation is not an option.
#9278 Terraformation » Using Phobos/Demos materials to alter the upper atmosphere of Mars. » 2012-12-28 09:00:47
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It may have been suggested before, but I think that the easiest method to alter Mars would be to eject dust from Phobos into
the atmosphere of Mars.
While it might make things better from a terraformers point of view, that is not gauranteed.
I would hope to soak up the chlorine atoms and get them to eventually drop to the surface and hopefully mostly stay there, allowing an improved Ozone protection from UV on the surface.
It might also alter precipitation patterns, as I have read that high layers of atmosphere on Mars often get supersaturated with water at night. I presume that this is because of lack of materials for ice to nucleate on.
So, cloud seeding using moon dust. Perhaps it could be targeted over deep basins, such as the rift valley, to raise the average humidity.
With greater UV protection, and greater relative humidity, day/night transitional dews/frosts might be more significant and maybe a minimum threshold could be met to allow lichens to grow in those low spots with more access to water dews/frosts.
My understanding is that the surface materials of Phobos have been significantly reduced of Oxygen by spluttering from the solar wind particles, so maybe it has a degree of magnitism, so perhaps a magnetic launcher of some kind could push it off of Phobos and into the atmosphere of Mars, in the manner of targeted cloud seeding.
The above picture is said to be a lichen that maintained motabolism for 30 days in a full Mars simulation. The experiment ended, so it is not known how long it could hold on, or maybe even grow. It apparently is an example of survival within a crack in rock or even soil, which apparently is survival favorable.
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/guest-bl … -mars.html
It is thought that a degree of protection from harmful radiation was a factor, but I also wonder if the dews/Frosts are more significant in the cracks of rocks or soil.
At any rate if an improved UV radiation and humidity environment were caused to occur, perhaps all the rock surfaces would support such a growth.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication … s_below_0C
Quote:
Abstract
Laboratory measurements show that lichens are extremely tolerant of freezing stress and of low-temperature exposure. Metabolic activity recovered quickly after severe and extended cold treatment. Experimental results demonstrate also that CO2 exchange is already active at around −20°C. The psychrophilic character of polar lichen species is demonstrated by optimum temperatures for net photosynthesis between 0 and 15°C. In situ measurements show that lichens begin photosynthesizing below 0°C if the dry thalli receive fresh snow. The lowest temperature measured in active lichens was −17°C at a continental Antarctic site. The fine structure and the hydration state of photobiont and mycobiont cells were studied by low-temperature scanning electron microscopy (LTSEM) of frozen hydrated specimens. Water potentials of the frozen system are in the range of or even higher than those allowing dry lichens to start photosynthesis by water vapor uptake at +10°C. The great success of lichens in polar and high alpine regions gives evidence of their physiological adaptation to low temperatures. In general lichens are able to persist through glacial periods, but extended snow cover and glaciation are limiting factors.
I actually have value in mind more than terraforming:
http://www.uni-graz.at/~grubem/treasure.pdf
If possible then the lichens might be a source of chemicals to humans on the planet.
Of course it previously been suggested by others, that dust from Martian moons could be distributed to the polar caps to change the reaction to sunlight.
Aerogel particles: (Much more far fetched)
Much more complicated and related to posts by others on this web site would be the manufacture of an aerogel dust to inject into the atmosphere. I know that aerogel cannot float in the Earths amosphere, but I wonder if it's interior cells were filled with Helium or Nitrogen if it is possible to float in the dominantly CO2 atmosphere of Mars?
There has been previous talk about floating habitats on Venus, so I feel it is worth asking. What purpose might they serve?
One possiblity would be to cause the tops of the particles to be reflective, and the sides and bottoms to be absorbing of sunlight. Then they would cool the equator, and perhaps warm the poles. This might cause a redistribution of mositure from the poles to the equator. Of course if the equator got too cold, then that would harm any intentions to foster life at the equator.
#9279 Re: Human missions » Sustainable Access to Mars: Interplanetary Transportation Architecture » 2012-12-28 08:07:20
The material I am going to post seems like it would fit here:
Dual-Mode Water Rocket:
http://www.sbir.gov/sbirsearch/detail/259659
http://www.orbitec.com/frames/advancedPropulsion.html
Vortec Engine:
http://www.sae.org/mags/AEM/11560
http://www.orbitec.com/propulsion.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=Vortex+r … 93&bih=423
Orbitec Web Site:
http://www.orbitec.com/
You may have already discussed the above, under other descriptions, but I missed it if you did. At any rate, the diagram is good to look at I think.
I am curious about this propulsion system, the Dual-Mode Water Rocket, and wonder how it might be used in a Mars mission.
One issue I saw on other threads, was that a vlasmir engine might force a mission to linger in the Van Allen belt too long.
With the above, I would imagine that the chemical engine could be used to get it through quickly.
It is also obvious that this thing could be refilled where ever water is convenient. Maybe from the Moon and Mars.
I also think that it should be possible to use a robotic ion rocket to place refueling stations at intermediate points for a trip to and from Mars, allowing the mass carried in the actual Dual-Mode Water Rocket to be lower.
It also seems to be stated that the vortex engine is considered to be lighter and more reliable. However, I do not know that it would be suitable for landing and launching from the surface of Mars. I do not know if it would make any sense to try to do an aerocapture of it at Mars. I am going to speculate that the answer would be no. In that case a separate lander is needed.
Or maybe it would be in two parts, the Vortec Engine part as a lander.
But as I have said, by having refueling at various points in the mission, perhaps an advantage is gained.
I can see also that for this method, it would also serve well to visit the Moons of Mars.
I wonder what thoughts you might have about this.
#9280 Re: Life on Mars » Past and Present life on Mars » 2012-12-28 05:39:03
I can accept that you have that conclusion, and would require a contrary fact in order to consider changing it.
None is provided to the public, and most likely no such evidence is in the possession of any person called human.
I am curious. What is your interest in Mars?
The search for life is one of the things that has seemed to interest the scientific community.
I can name 3 of possible reactions to the existance of Mars as a potential habitible world.
Creationist:
a) 1 God driven origin of life on Earth, very little interest in Mars.
b) 1 God driven origin of life on Earth, but not ruling out other creations, could more easily adapt to findings of life elsewhere.
Atheist:
- Would likely prefer life to be found, in hopes of disputing other relegious doctrins.
In both of the above cases, it is my personal thinking that rights to power over the human race are involved, so they concern manipulating people, who in turn manipulate objects as a secondary object.
Materialist:
- Most likely not linking the existance of life outside of the Earth with the purpose of expansion into space.
In this case obviously, the agenda is to manipulate objects, which in turn does also manipulate people.
You don't have to answer at all of course, I am curious are you primarily an object manipulator, or a people manipulator?
Something else?
#9281 Re: Terraformation » Shell Worlds » 2012-12-28 03:31:03
A good place to try to develop at least part of the skills necessary, with a potential payoff might be Titan.
I suggest a bottom and a top shell. A torus around the equator. A flatened torus, and within the atmosphere, at a level where the air pressure would be 1 bar ideally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torus
Floating? If possible, anchored. Tensile or compressive anchors? Whatever could work.
once established, in terms of population saftey, I am thinking that continuing safety should be possible.
Further this method would allow the limitation of the alteration of the native environment, but I suppose the presence would alter the native form, but a stable post native form should be possible.
No danger of explosive decompression, A giant heat sink to spill heat into (The cold atmosphere), Light materials in abundance, possible meteor heavy materials in the crust.
But likely defficient in heavy materials accessible on the surface. A defficient power source.
Still in a solar space based trade network it might be a important place. Heavy materials once imported are not too likely to be lost and could be recycled, and energy gathering technology does keep advancing.
For energy the usual space solar and presumed fusion sources can be speculated on. In addition, Saturns spin can be exploited using magnetic tether systems linked to Saturn by tides. Curious, if Titan does not have a magnetic field, perhaps those tethers could be down on the surface. Maybe even superconductive materials? I am not sure if that would be very important though.
But imagining that the human race were to become interstellar, then Neo-Earths and Neo-Titans might be their best finds.
#9282 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » The Interplanetary Economy- My Take » 2012-12-27 22:44:48
I find that the hardest question for us to answer as space advocates, both to ourselves and to others is: Why space? Why now?
Why? Because it's there and you can. The baby boom generation (Which I belong to). Was apparently raised to be the GI generations vision of a brilliant future, perfect in every way, the Jetsons. (See the book "The fourth turning").
We were tought really to be just the opposite of them. I suppose they wanted to live through us and so be able to live the methods of life that they had not. We followed the script to a degree, but also because of our extreem individuality, really hippies became yuppies, and also we had a tendency to feel that we were required to challenge what the GI generation had built. So, a large degree of non purpose was the result. If you do choose to read that book and don't choose to dismiss it, you will find that this process has happened many times, and that what comes next after this current period could be another generation like the GI generation, where they will band together for a great purpose. That should not be squandered.
Why space? Why now? Why get up in the morning? Why exist? It is just the same as it ever was. Our bodies are made of material, and there is a lot of material in space. The other choice is to do battle with competitors to see who gets the materials here on Earth. And with the weapons that are availible, that could spell a civilizational failure.
Our culture/s are too big now for one planet. Separation allowed for some developement of human liberty in the case of America (I know that there are very good counter arguments). But the point is that Europe gave birth to us, but was also a canibal parent. Given the means, the higher powers in Europe which was more established would have turned us completely into plantations, for a quick coin, and would have destroyed any of the sub cultures that moved here that stood in the way. This would have corrupted both Europe and America further than is the case.
The compulsion for domination which many people carry, and the compulsion for efficiency are contrary to the needs of the human soul. (Which strangely the baby boomers are well equipped to comment on as they are the prophets).
The generation to come will need a task which involves great organization, self sacrifice, and hopefully a great gain for that.
The off Earth locations will allow that to take place without bumping into established cultures on this planet, and so can diffuse and manage the asperations of that generation to come, perhaps without shattering the Earth.
#9283 Life support systems » Salt, Water, Power, Crops. » 2012-12-27 19:57:09
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I think that the use of salt water and fresh water could aid in the habitation of Mars.
The following is a potential source of power, if salt and fresh water were available:
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2011/marc … 32811.html
A source of salt could be salt pans:
http://digital.csic.es/bitstream/10261/ … 264561.pdf
Typically it is expected that water would have to come from ice, but it can be noted that the salt pans may have a source of moisture in them. I would think that if no life exists in them then the salt pans can be used.
Here is someones invention where a salt water concentrate is generated, and fresh moisture from that process is utilized to irrigate fresh water crops:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawater_greenhouse
That sort of fits, but I actually want to see salt water enclosures on Mars where crops are grown, and the evaporation from the soil or plants or water surface if there is one is then condensed on the greenhouse walls.
Such greenhouses could be lower pressure to increase evaporation rates.
Here are some proposed crops:
Salicornia Europaea
Atriplex
Salt water is relative. It does not have to be as salty as the oceans of Earth.
Here are some links:
http://sciencefocus.com/qa/are-there-an … salt-water
http://blog.jove.com/2012/05/24/japanes … ccelerator
http://gigaom.com/cleantech/salt-loving … -jet-fuel/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicornia_europaea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atriplex
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 … 22,7428244
So, a waterworks, an energy source and a food source. Not for free of course. Structures have to be built.
Anyway now I don't have to carry this one around anymore.
Oh, additionally it would be possible to have a dome with ambient pressures with a ice covered pool in it where in addition to the evaporation process, the freeze process of the day night cycle might help to push brine out of the ice layer during the night, and then during the day, the heat would sublimate the less salty ice into a vapor, which would then have to be compressed to condense into fresh water.
Not having to make the dome covers hold pressure might be a plus. They would still need to be vapor tight, which is not easy.
#9284 Re: Terraformation » Shell Worlds » 2012-12-27 15:21:12
Well why not. Lots of raw materials and energy, come up with a set of tools that benefits your productive process, and a means to not become dead from the space environment, and you are then the new Homo Galacticus.
Who am I to say what tools are the best. I can simply try to provide some.
#9285 Re: Life on Mars » Past and Present life on Mars » 2012-12-27 14:56:28
Well thanks for giving a reply.
supposition:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/supposition
Noun 1. supposition - a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence
guess, speculation, surmisal, surmise, conjecture, hypothesis
opinion, view - a message expressing a belief about something; the expression of a belief that is held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof; "his opinions appeared frequently on the editorial page"
Yes, I did. Aside from having all the complete set of information, trying to define what is the additional information you should be looking for can be supported with the use of "guess, speculation, surmisal, surmise, conjecture, hypothesis". It might even be used in science, I am suppositioning. 
Seriously, I am grateful that you have tried to improve my thinking process.
Quotes:
John Maynard Keynes: "That all things are possible is no excuse for talking foolishly."
Foolishness, the quality of having poor judgement or little intelligence
I would prefer being refered to as ignorant, but yes at times I use poor judgement.
"A man who calls his brother a fool is in danger of going to hell". Don't throw it about so freely. Call me ignorant please. I am ignorant. Thats what happens before you go to school.
I will try to rephrase what I was getting at:
Mars appears to have had the capacity to support life at times, and may still have it in certain locations such as aquifers, and perhaps in the near surface of cracks in rocks, and salt pans. Mars also has climatic periods even now (Last 200 Million years) where a stronger axial tilt could allow a ambient pressure of 11 mb, and snowfall/water ice from other condensation in the equatorial regions. Mix salt with ice with a somewhat below freezing temperature (Fresh Water Freezing), and you can likely get a salt water seep, puddle, or even a lake. If the environment were occasionally like that of the dry valleys of Antarctica (A big stretch), then solar heated salt water covered with less salty water, covered with transparent/translucent ice.
So, if panspermia/transpermia can work, it might have.
I agree that no conculsive evidence for life exists and certaintly not lichen. (Not completely ruling it out though).
The German experiment suggests that if lichen were transplanted to certain microenvironments on Mars it could persist for at least 30 days. The same for Cyanobacteria.
I like you would prefer that there were no life on Mars, especially now that I understand how close Mars is in capability to adopt certain Earth life forms.
I am deeply curious as to why it would not have life.
I have to supposition that there are reasons, and I would like to find them out or find life.
#9286 Re: Life on Mars » Past and Present life on Mars » 2012-12-27 04:05:48
I have always been very negitive on the notion of surface life on Mars, but have in the last 6 months had to open to the idea that near surface life is possible.
I consider the following to be "Near Surface":
-Cracks in rocks, exposed to the air and sunshine.
-Salt in salt pans.
-Ice exposed to sunlight by the impact of a Earth Rock.
CRACKS IN ROCKS:
Evidence suggesting the Lichen and Cyanobacteria can survive and motabolize for at least 1 Month under present Martian conditions:
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/guest-bl … -mars.html
I have read several of these articles, that indicated that Lichen motabolizes and is happy in a (Stated as full) simulation of current Martian conditions. I have also been studying Lichen and learned that it can draw mositure and saturate in 30? seconds. Apparently according to these articles, there is a very short duration between the day and night environments, perhaps twice a day at some locations where a tiny amount of dew can exist, long enough to water the lichens and I presume the Cyanobacteria. It seems that cracks in the rock or even soil can favor survival. I was skeptical that it can deal with the UV light, but they seem to indicate that it can. I have trouble with that still, because I was previously instructed by all writtings from the authorities previous, that the UV is totally lethal to all life. But these articles say the simulation included the radiation environment. (I hope by that they do indicate the UV was a full simulation).
If you have reason to think that I have been given a false understanding please let me know.
Anyway as I said, I have been reading up on lichen, and also have learned that in some cases it does not even need liquid water, but can absorb moisture directly from frost or in some cases directly from a high humidity. I do know that the Martian atmosphere saturates with humidity at night quite often.
Another feature is that lichen exhibits motabolism at rather low temperatures. It does better at above freezing temperatures.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication … s_below_0C
Quote:
Abstract
Laboratory measurements show that lichens are extremely tolerant of freezing stress and of low-temperature exposure. Metabolic activity recovered quickly after severe and extended cold treatment. Experimental results demonstrate also that CO2 exchange is already active at around −20°C. The psychrophilic character of polar lichen species is demonstrated by optimum temperatures for net photosynthesis between 0 and 15°C. In situ measurements show that lichens begin photosynthesizing below 0°C if the dry thalli receive fresh snow. The lowest temperature measured in active lichens was −17°C at a continental Antarctic site. The fine structure and the hydration state of photobiont and mycobiont cells were studied by low-temperature scanning electron microscopy (LTSEM) of frozen hydrated specimens. Water potentials of the frozen system are in the range of or even higher than those allowing dry lichens to start photosynthesis by water vapor uptake at +10°C. The great success of lichens in polar and high alpine regions gives evidence of their physiological adaptation to low temperatures. In general lichens are able to persist through glacial periods, but extended snow cover and glaciation are limiting factors.
SALT PANS:
I think that this article is very interesting:
http://digital.csic.es/bitstream/10261/ … 264561.pdf
For me, much of it is written in a Martian dialect, but I gather from it, that they assert that in certain circumstances salt can have sufficient moisture and high enough temperatures for Eart life to live in it. Certainly I think that the maps are interesting.
In this case because of the previous information about lichen and cyanobacteria being able to deal with UV, I would suppose UV will not prohibit life. But if it turned out that it does, I would suppose that deeper down in the salt pan the UV would be moderated or absent.
ICE EXPOSED TO SUNLIGHT BY AN EARTH IMPACTOR:
I have no reference for this on, but I recall that some notion exists that an impactor from Earth could punch through a soil layer into ice, exposing the ice to sunlight, and that liquid water could exist from solar energy for a period of time. (The liquid water would be contained by the physical strength of the surrounding ice. So, this would be a very great pathway for the innoculation of Mars by Earth organisms, over the duration of planetary existance.
So I guess I will finish by saying that it seems plausable to me that Earth life could be currently living on Mars, but I also have to note that we have not been shown any evidence of it. I presume that is because it has not been observed/detected.
I actually just want to hear any arguments you might have against my "Logic" : >
Do I have my head on strait on this one?
#9287 Re: Terraformation » Shell Worlds » 2012-12-26 23:51:58
I will offer what I have. These deviate from your original query to the others and yourself.
The only way I would ever think of a shell world surrounding a gravitational mass and supported against gravity by atmospheric pressure, would be if a collapse could be survived by the population, and if they could quickly rebuild it at a reasonable cost. I suppose if they had safety measures such as early warning and deep bunkers where they could survive the crash, or a means to depart to an orbital shelter, and if they had a vast army of robot servants to do the rebuilding, then it might be considered for small bodies as you have yourself restricted the idea to.
It is obvious that vacuum floats above air in a gravitational field, and that air floats above water, and that water floats above soil and rock. So far, we can only violate that using stiff tensile and/or compressive structures. We fill a tire with air, but from time to time we get a flat tire and in that case we can replace or patch it and refil it.
I would think that Vesta would be fun to try the idea on, it turns out that it's soil is impregnated with Hydrogen, and it is smaller than Ceres. I would make the "Supports" as verticle closed cylinders shaped like an elongated soup cans filled with air.
I would link each cylinder with pressurized passageway ducts running horizontally. Then I would cover the whole thing with a common enclosure, a roof to catch gasses leaking from the ducts, and cylinders and their airlocks. Artificial gravitation would be from a torroid spinning structure inside of the bottom (perhaps) of each cylinder, supported with magnatism or air pressure as in a hover craft like the method suggested in the saucer section of the imaginary starship enterprise of the sci-fi "Star Trek".
Deviating even further;
-Cover Ceres with a worldwide ocean protected by mechanical means, with ice sheets as floats and solar domes enclosing "Windows". In some cases the "Lakes" under the windows could be ice water, and in some cases with extra means they could be tropical. Ceres is close enough to the sun where this could be worthwhile. Going further out in the solar system, I suppose you would not bother with windows, but would rely on some unspecified energy source.
-Make a shell without a gravitational body. I think it would be quite worthwhile to have a hollow shell world built to orbit Ceres or some other such body. It may be only slightly pressurized (Near vacuum) to catch the leakage gasses from the artificial worlds it would enclose. Those artifical worlds could be like the clasic torroids that early on were suggested. They could be moved about within the parent body, repositioned, docked to a network of ducts. Smaller non spinning worlds could also be present, sufficient to hold a group of working persons for a period of weeks or months. I suppose I see this as each small world working with others to construct something, with robotic manipulator arms with hands. I suppose they would work with material objects, to provide goods. I think that this could be quite a good method for the Jupiter system. The outer shell could be a radiation barrier. Raw materials from Callisto, and later the other moons could be brought in. But this is quite deviated from your original query about shell worlds.
As for energy, such shell worlds might be able to capture energy from the solar wind, perhaps quite far out. Or in the case of the Jupiter system by entering a harmonic orbit with one of the moons and essentially converting the spin of Jupiter into energy. They would use the magnetic field of Jupiter to generate power, and the momentum of the moon they have a harmonic orbit with to maintain orbital position. The tides of Jupiter would replace the momentum taken from the moon with spin energy taken from Jupiter.
Such a scheme would work for otherwise uninhabitable star systems, such as small red dwarfs, brown dwarfs, and yellow stars without a reasonable "Earth", but with a significant planet with a significant moon.
So, by this method at least you could consider that solar systems inhabited would not have to be ideal ones. So this could be a method to achive what was desired.
Good for the imagination, but I do believe it will be a long time, if ever comming.
#9288 Re: Terraformation » Baxter mines and the nitrogen problem » 2012-12-26 20:05:12
Well I see that you are not strictly talking about Nitrogen, so perhaps you will not be angry if I type a some lines in the form of a related question about the possiblity that Carbon has been bound to Nickle and Iron in the Martian crust. I am at best an amateur and can run with speculation, as long as I don't overdo it and annoy you.
I am thinking of something like the Mond process, with Iron/Nickle impactors interacting with the low level of Carbon Monoxide in the Martian atmosphere, over billions of years.
I have been trying to understand what happens in the Exosphere of Mars, and it appears from my reading, that Oxygen is lost, but for the most part Carbon is not. Apparently water sublimated from ice bodies in the soil and poles replenishes the lost Oxygen as H20 is split into Hydrogen (Which floats away), and the Oxygen hangs around for a time, converting some Carbon Monoxide into CO2. At some point UV light splits Oxygen off, and this can cause "Hot Oxygen" molecules which can escape from the atmosphere.
So, this has caused me to wonder. The Carbon is not very enriched with Isotopes, (Unless I have the wrong information). 3%
So, if not so much Carbon has been lost to space, where did it go? Some is in Dry Ice in the polar caps, I understand.
Understanding the whole historical process of atmospheric components, could be related to figuring out where your Nitrogen is. I have no direct notion of that, but am a bit suspicious that after Hydrogen it would be the easiest to loose to space, because the Oxygen that is lost to space apparently must first be split from CO2 in the very upper atmophere.
Against what I suggest is that there is a greater amount of free Oxygen than Carbon Monoxide in the atmophere. However for it is the notion that Carbon Monoxide is much more strongly bonded to Hemoglobin than Oxygen. And am I wrong that that is involving Iron?
I have read some materials that suggest that in the early days of the solar system, Carbon could be ejected from the Martian atmosphere because of a different character of the sun, perhaps a much stronger solar wind and perhaps a different spectrum?
Initially I was going to run with the idea that Carbon could be sequestered in the Crust as Hydrocarbons, but of course I know that is sort of a no no, as the oil industry only considers that most oil comes from prehistoric life that has decayed inside the crust, and the little of it is abiotic. I have no answer for that.
However I remembered previous threads here about the Mond process, and wonder if the orginal atmosphere of Mars might have had more carbon in it, and if Carbon Monoxide bonding to reduced metals dropping in from space could have removed some Carbon from the atmosphere.
More of a set of questions, not as much a theory.
I know you have people here who might shed some light on it if they feel like it.
If you have to tell me that I am wrong, I will just consider that learning.
#9289 Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Dark Matter Wind? » 2012-07-04 23:51:30
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- Replies: 2
I just felt like saying something about dark matter.
Particles passing through, I guess they think that as the Earth rotates, a person is alternately upwind or downwind from it's flow. It is in motion apparently, but scarcly interacts with matter. The big question for me is could there ever be a machine build that could somehow generate a "Field?" that could interact with dark matter? Then perhaps a huge energy source, since the dark matter is in motion.
If they really are getting close to understanding the Higgs Boson, then perhaps some star treky type things might eventually occur.
I guess my point is that if dark matter is moving through use here, it is likely moving through Pluto as well. Maybe we will never tap it as an energy source, but I have a feeling that if there were a way, then it would certaintly help to open up a path to the stars.
But of course I have nothing to offer as how to do that.
We don't really have a understanding of Mass and Gravitation yet, at least not one I have been told and can understand.
#9290 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Paraffin, propulsion and other uses, crash-landing it. » 2012-07-04 13:38:02
I hold your opinion in high regaurd. You did not dismiss the idea out of hand, that is nice.
Anyway, facts are facts, and I believe that you have them understood quite well, beyond my abilities.
Dumping something off the ship just prior to landing is actually the only loophole I have noticed, that could defy the existing plans that are well thought out.
It is nice that you have the patience to consider it.
#9291 Re: Terraformation » Titan, with modest efforts » 2012-07-04 12:28:40
Yes, perhaps you will.
#9292 Re: Terraformation » Titan, with modest efforts » 2012-07-02 18:45:52
Ya, Titan could be pretty Cool , but if you had a power source you could warm up nicely.
...What? I still don't understand why you want to use Helium and CO2, or have a spinning airship. Why not keep it simple and just have the disk spiining in an enclosure, using magnets to keep it from touching the sides? Design it right and you could pretty much eliminate friction.
You're talking about a spinning airship in an enclosure, right?
BTW, Titan has about 1/7 Terran gravity, not 1/10.
I stand corrected on the gravity.
I guess there are lots of good ideas. So you imply repulsive force from the sides, but perhaps I don't understand. Maybe an attractive force from the bottom, keeping it centered?
As for Helium and CO2 mix (Or other mixes). I am no chemist. I do understand that atmospheric gasses mix, and are to a degree disolved into each other. If an excess of one gas did exist, and if they had very unlike "Specific Gravites", I think a separation and stratification might occur even with spinning. CO2 is twice as heavy as air? Helium is very light in relation to Air.
I think some of the reason we don't have stratification in our atmosphere is due to Oxygen and Nitrogen having similar weight.
I am looking for a "Pond Surface effect", but not a sharp transition as it is between water and air, but a graduated differientation Temperature differential will also help.
I want a colder and heavier (CO2 dominated) layer overlayed by a lighter warmer (Helium dominated layer) Up however would be points away from the spiinning habitat as well as the gravitational "UP" that Titan would provide. It would after all be a centriguge, and fluids tend to separate, but the rotor action might also mix. So I am not certain. I don't know what the saturation level is between CO2 and Helium, and I will not bother to google for it, since I just don't think it is out there.
But such spinning mechanisms could also use actuated flaps and also "Ground Effects", as in hovercraft to repell from the floor and wall.
The options are rather large.
I might add that such a method might work OK on other worlds such as Mars. However, there you might want to have a chamber under a ice covered lake, a chamber in rock perhaps? Perhaps even such a chamber created by a nuclear blast, as was at one time speculated for the Moon.
Just don't make it too big or in 800 Million years too many Morlocks! (I saw that in a movie) Morlocks No!!
#9293 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Paraffin, propulsion and other uses, crash-landing it. » 2012-07-01 18:39:25
I respect all opinions on this, but if such engines are actually 5-10 times cheaper to use, it has to be attractive.
Oh, I don't plan to burn paraffin to heat the structure Louis. It is a fluid that retains heat well, and can be melted with solar heat, pumped into the tanks as warm, and retain heat overnight. Maybe the people would sleep on the tanks, with a blanket above them.
So after the humans arrive, they load up the pariffin tanks with the stuff strewn about outside, and start melting it with solar heat. Later when the mission is over, it is fuel, for the burn up to orbit.
And by the way the plastic bags that would hold the paraffin would then be recycled to 3D printers to make stuff.
Paraffin wax is an excellent material to store heat, having a specific heat capacity of 2.14–2.9 J g−1 K−1 (joule per gram kelvin) and a heat of fusion of 200–220 J g−1.[10] This property is exploited in modified drywall for home building material: a certain type (with the right melting point) of wax is infused in the drywall during manufacture so that, when installed, it melts during the day, absorbing heat, and solidifies again at night, releasing the heat.[11] Paraffin wax phase change cooling coupled with retractable radiators was used to cool the electronics of the Lunar Rover.[12] Wax expands considerably when it melts and this allows its use in wax thermostatic element thermostats for industrial, domestic and, particularly, automobile purposes.[13][14]
My concern is that I constantly hear how hard it is to land a big payload. Well, if you dump off "Ballast" in the form of useful materials, then you lighten the payload before the thump-down, allowing additional slowing with the engines. So, maybe you get to have your cake and eat it to. Not bad from my thinking.
I agree that getting stuff from the locality is a nice plan, but you won't be getting beef jerky right away. I wonder how hard a stick of beef jerky can hit the Martian surface and still be food?
Now, if your beef jerky were in the form of a chain, including plant fiber and also a digestable glue, you could go drag it back to the camp, cut pieces off, put them in a sealed pot of water, and dump that into a hot paraffin bath, and go out to work. I get the idea that you might want your people to eat something more basic, but still, for moral, heated food might be better some times. I might be a little concerned on how you do the dishes however. How do you prevent food poisioning? Maybe it can be solved.
As for Steel, yes you might collect iron, but before you do that you need tools, Steel slammed hard to the surface from a high drop may or may not survive as chain. Parts might be good and parts might be broken and mangled. Well join the good parts to make such an amount of chain as you need (Not that much I expect), and take the other pieces, and heat them in a solar focus, and shape it into tools you will need to gather ISRU materials and to process them. You cannot start with rocks and expect to make goods, you have to have some starter tools, and some raw materials you bring to make more tools with those tools. It is not necessary to soft land the processed materials such as chain and beef jerky (Or some other food with similar properties), it does make sense that they must be retrievable, so I think dropping them from one of the main delivery vehicles is the best, since that way they will not be miles away (I hope).
I see it as a cone of provision. Soft land the starter tools, hard drop the materials for the second wave of tools, gather local materials for the third wave of tools.
I also wonder if it would be possible to manufacture Paraffin from Phobos and Demos? Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen? And then eventually manufacture it on Mars.
It does make sense to me that that material can be easily stockpiled. I am not sure about easily manufactured however.
I actually hope I am not exasperating you Rocket Man.
Some times I just have to do what I do, until an imovable object stops me, such as reality.
#9294 Re: Terraformation » Titan, with modest efforts » 2012-07-01 16:38:12
I agree at this point with GW Johnson, that leaving Titan more natural makes some sense. If waste heat alters it fine, don't worry about just adapt to what happens, but not another Earth. With such a low gravitation, it should be very possible to make very large building that go very high up, and have very spacious openings with green plants balconies, artifician lighting, birds and such, as might make you happy.
?
Quote:
Within a few kilomemeters of height, gases don't seperate out significantly. Though why do you want to have Helium? Air at Titan pressure and Terran temperature is less than 1/4 of the density of the atmosphere at the surface on Titan. In the cold environment, I imagine hot air airships will be very popular, being able to carry 3 times the cargo as Terran airships *without* using hydrogen, and having the entire envelope avaiable as habitable area.
Consider a disk shaped enclosure with a disk shaped airship spinning in it. It is not defined what amount of artificial gravitation is required for health. Titan supplies about 1/10 th.
If the disk were outside spinning, it would constantly shed turbulent atmosphere, draining power.
If it is in the enclosure, it will hopefully be possible to induce a laminar flow, where shells of CO2/Helium mix of differnt density due to variation in mix and temperature would spin. Ligher mixtures, those lighter than others due to content of Helium and elivated temperature would tend to float if no spin were occuring. If the ship were spinning then you have a centrifuge, and a vortex forming around the rotor which is the spinning airship. If laminar layers of circular flow can be induced, then the lighter warmer mix stays alongside and above the spinning airship. The colder heavier layers stay below and further out. The rings of spinniing gas spin at different rates. Near the spinning airship a faster spin, near the walls of the disk shaped enclosure. Therefore if you have a spin of 200 MPH, the gas touching the airship is only slighly slower. Conservation of spin energy hopefully, and also the avoidance of forces that might rip it. Also a centering force, since the airship would be in a single central vortex.
It is my hope that below the airship could be a connected tube, so that passengers could have continuous access to a system of tunnels below the whole assembly.
It is actually possible to dispense with the toxic CO2 and go with air, but then the airship must have large containments of Helium, and the centrifical stratification process then would have to depend more on thermal processes, since air has less of a displacement force.
#9295 Terraformation » Titan, with modest efforts » 2012-07-01 09:45:18
- Void
- Replies: 31
There has been some talk about habitation of the asteroid belt lately, and although that is very intersting to me, it also seems likely that when that ability occurs, it will be possible to also habitate Titan.
I am not one who thinks it can easlily be made like the Earth. At best with a sort of floating bubbles greanhouse, the Methane could all be vaporized, and the temperatures raised.
From there, I guess I would hope for fusion power, as a source of power, but also as a source of Helium.
What Titan has to offer is a atmosphere largely of Nitogen, resources suitable to make plastics. Whatever stony/metal meteors that may be in the upper layers of ice, and a 1/10th Gee field? So it might be a good place to launch rockets from, presuming the existance of the required infrastructure for that.
I am supposing that rocky/metal materials might be available from objects ejected to the neighborhood in the last 4.5 billion years not NEO, but NTO objects?
Otherwise a more expensive process of solar sailing such materials from the inner solar system.
I am thinking that Skyscrapers on Titan could be quite big, provided the materials for them were available. Big in a cold climate is generally good for the retention of heat.
I am thinking that inflatable domes could be held up not only by relative heat inside, but also a partial contentent of Helium. If the domes were very big and high, perhaps the helium would differentiate out and pool at the top.
I am thinking for gravitational issues on biology, one potential option is that eventually it will be possible to trick the body to think it is experiencing greater gravity. After all the bones must loose calcium because of a signal that says it is not needed. The muscles? Maybe the same thing.
Other than that, I support the notion of a pit in the crustal ice, covered with a dome filled with Helium and CO2, the CO2 and Helium should stratify to a degree. A lighter than air craft inside of that floating in the CO2, and spinning, to provide a centrifuge. Ideally coupled to a passageway to a set of tunnels under ice that lead to other facilities.
I think the the critical issue is fusion power, and with that and advancement in spaceflight Titan could be a very major habitat for humans, and a place from which to push further out into the solar system.
#9296 Interplanetary transportation » Paraffin, propulsion and other uses, crash-landing it. » 2012-07-01 08:19:51
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- Replies: 19
I was at the www.space.com site to find this which I liked, and then did some related searching and thinking:
http://www.space.com/16378-hybrid-rocke … t-spg.html
Quote:
A new hybrid rocket motor fired up Friday (June 29), demonstrating technology that its builders say could lead to efficient, alternative-fuel launch vehicles down the road.
California-based Space Propulsion Group, Inc. (SPG) test-fired the 22-inch-wide (56-centimeter) liquid oxygen/paraffin motor for about 20 seconds Friday, blasting a streak of bright flame into the air at the company's testing facility in Butte, Mont.
The trial was the fifth for this particular motor, SPG officials said, and it demonstrated a flight-weight version of the design.
The company says future propulsion systems using the motor's hybrid technology have the potential to be five to 10 times cheaper than existing rockets. And the paraffin fuel has the added benefit of being non-toxic, officials said.
"We believe propulsion drives the cost of access to space and that complexity generally drives propulsion system cost," SPG president and chief technical officer Arif Karabeyoglu said in a statement after the test-fire. "By using a commercially available paraffin-based fuel, we have created an economically viable alternative that could significantly reduce the price of space accessibility, as well as help preserve the environment."
Hybrid rocket motors use propellants that are in two different states of matter, as opposed to purely liquid or solid rockets.
Proponents of hybrid technology claim that it combines the advantages of the other two types, offering the simplicity of solid systems and the safety of liquid rockets. (Solid rockets, such as the boosters that helped loft NASA's now-retired space shuttle, generally can't be shut off once they've been lit.)
Hybrid rockets are playing a large role in the burgeoning private spaceflight industry. Virgin Galactic's suborbital SpaceShipTwo vehicle employs hybrid motors, as does Sierra Nevada's Dream Chaser, a mini-shuttle that's in the running to transport NASA astronauts to and from the International Space Station.
Follow SPACE.com on Twitter @Spacedotcom. We're also on Facebook and Google+.
Quote Again specifically:
The company says future propulsion systems using the motor's hybrid technology have the potential to be five to 10 times cheaper than existing rockets. And the paraffin fuel has the added benefit of being non-toxic, officials said.
Paraffin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraffin
Quote:
Paraffin waxParaffin wax (or simply "paraffin", but see alternative name for kerosene, above) is mostly found as a white, odorless, tasteless, waxy solid, with a typical melting point between about 46 and 68 °C (115 and 154 °F),[4] and having a density of around 0.9 g/cm3.[5] It is insoluble in water, but soluble in ether, benzene, and certain esters. Paraffin is unaffected by most common chemical reagents but burns readily.[6]
Pure paraffin wax is an excellent electrical insulator, with an electrical resistivity of between 1013 and 1017 ohm metre.[7] This is better than nearly all other materials except some plastics (notably Teflon). It is an effective neutron moderator and was used in James Chadwick's 1932 experiments to identify the neutron.[8][9]
Paraffin wax is an excellent material to store heat, having a specific heat capacity of 2.14–2.9 J g−1 K−1 (joule per gram kelvin) and a heat of fusion of 200–220 J g−1.[10] This property is exploited in modified drywall for home building material: a certain type (with the right melting point) of wax is infused in the drywall during manufacture so that, when installed, it melts during the day, absorbing heat, and solidifies again at night, releasing the heat.[11] Paraffin wax phase change cooling coupled with retractable radiators was used to cool the electronics of the Lunar Rover.[12] Wax expands considerably when it melts and this allows its use in wax thermostatic element thermostats for industrial, domestic and, particularly, automobile purposes.[13][14]
In industrial applications, it is often useful to modify the crystal properties of the paraffin wax, typically by adding branching to the existing carbon backbone chain. The modification is usually done with additives, such as EVA copolymers, microcrystalline wax, or forms of polyethylene. The branched properties result in a modified paraffin with a higher viscosity, smaller crystalline structure, and modified functional properties. Pure paraffin wax is rarely used for carving original models for casting metal and other materials in the lost wax process, as it is relatively brittle at room temperature and presents the risks of chipping and breakage when worked. Soft and pliable waxes, like beeswax, may be preferred for such sculpture, but "investment casting waxes," often paraffin-based, are expressly formulated for the purpose
So, I can see making old fashoioned "Potted" electircal devices if necessary. (You never know what emergency might happen)
Or using the stuff to maintain comfortable/habitible conditions in a habitat, per temperature regulation. It apparently was already used on the Moon for a cooling fluid, how about a heating fluid on Mars?
As a Rocket fuel.
TwinBeam mentioned crash-landing raw materials on another thread, I mentioned a "chain method" also on that thread, but it has other traffic of another nature, and this would step on that so I am starting this thread.
It seems to me that it would be a good candidate for hard landing/crash landing.
If packets of it were strapped on to the sides of a lander, and the lander had a spin at the time of release, the the bags of paraffin would eject from the lander and reduce it's load. If there were air/Nitrogen bubbles in the plastic phase paraffin, then upon impact, the air bubbles would absorb some of the shock, and perhaps keep the bags from bursting. Even if they burst, I am inclinded to think that the paraffin would largely be usible for a reasonable period of time, with cleaning.
I am wondering if instead of bringing Hydrogen to Mars, and extracting Oxygen from the atmosphere from it, it would be better to use paraffin as the fuel, and then simply extract Oxygen from CO2 directly, and casting away the CO remnant?
Hydrogen would be hard to deliver to Mars as a liquid. Water would be expensive to deliver to Mars, since you are delivering a lot of Oxygen.
If Parafin can be eject-landed, and Oxygen pulled directly from the CO2, then the humans would simply pick up the solid pieces of bagged paraffin, and use it during the mission for what utility it had, and the reuse it as a fuel to get to orbit.
The following is not part of this topic, but it is interesting. Maybe later:
http://www.space.com/16367-private-moon … almaz.html
#9297 Re: Human missions » Landing on Mars » 2012-06-30 11:09:47
For your intentions, yes that is also an option.
However, I have no intention to susspend anything from the chain but chain.
The chain if it is metal or even perhaps plastic is a tool.
The chain if it is food, is a collection of food joined, so that it can be extracted from the dirt and dusted off. Perhaps it would a soluable so that it could be immersed in water to make a soup of some kind, and yet build with a bit of strength. Perhaps beef jerky and a glue of soup dried soup broth?
The chain if it is plastic can serve as a tool, but could be fed into a 3D printer to make items required and desired.
The Metal, if it were brass would be useful, a brass chain can be of use, otherwise it can be melted and processed into tools or construction materials.
Steel chain would be of some value, otherwise, perhaps it could be forged into tools, using solar concentrated focus, and blacksmith methods.
Cable is useful, but when it gets screwed up it is screwed up. Chain can be cut with a cutter, and can be joined with a new forged link, or a specially built one that will mechanically join together.
The point would be to slow it to a speed where impact would not render it useless or unrecoverable. That way less fuel used to deliver it. The rocket engines used to slow it are immediatly put to a new task as soon as the chain either is stopped from pulling the assembly down when it strikes the ground, or is simply released from the assembly to fall on it's own. The engines which previously were used to slow down the chain then are reused to soft land or hard land the engine assembly, to protect the engine assembly or a further cargo, or to just protect the cargo, such as an inflatable shelter.
If the engine assembly is protected, then while the mission is occuring refueling from Martian atmosphere could be occurring at the same time, so that it can deliver the people back up to orbit. So it gets used 3 times.
#9298 Re: Human missions » Landing on Mars » 2012-06-30 09:35:18
Asside from what I recently posted, and in line with what TwinBeam posted, I wonder if it would be possible to hard land a collection of bags or canisters of very cold frozen mixture of water and Hydrogen Peroixde, without it exploding? Say at 20K? If so then that could serve as an immediate Oxygen supply and also water. It a previously landed device can provide Oxygen and water, then not needed, but I think that getting water will be hard. Anyway, again, an option perhaps.
#9299 Re: Human missions » Landing on Mars » 2012-06-30 09:12:15
Actually I only said hover to indicate that after the chain load was expelled, the engines would have enough power to hover, povided they had fuel. Of course landing the engine assembly ASAP, before the fuel ran out would be the preference.
For example if the engines had enough power to hover a one ton assembly, and the total weight with chain was 5 tons, then without releasing the chain the speed of descent would be enormous. The timing of the disconnection of the upper end of the chain would be critical. It would have to happen soon enough that the "Lander" could overcome it's inertia, and also be close enough to the ground as to not linger in hover mode. Certainly not a "Personed" process, but an ultra high speed robotic process. And the chain materials would have to be of great utility or it would not be worth it.
It is a process somewhere between crash landing and a somewhat soft landing.
Again I am not proposing it as a defninte solution, but a thought experiment I have been working on.
I am not even sure why it would be needed to save the engine section from impact except to soft land a inflatable habitate, or some other sensitive machine or if that engine section was to be turned into an assent rocket for return to orbit.
There is much to challenge in this, I simply present it as thinking, not as an effort to overturn previous work, but as in the crash landing notions presented to suppliment other various previously considered options.
I actually want to avoid hovering, unlike that skycrane which is to deploy the next rover.
#9300 Re: Human missions » Landing on Mars » 2012-06-30 08:59:48
I am inclined to think what you mentioned should be considered.
I have tried to work though a "Similar" set of notions.
The following is a thought exercise for the most part but illustrates some advantages of alternate schemes:
Using a "SkyCrane" type landing system, after ejection from an aeroshell, and after having been slowed down sufficiently, a "Cargo" of "Chain" could be released, to depend below the "SkyCrane". The upper set of links would be of the strongest matrials, and below that progressively weaker materials.
Strong metals, weak metals, plastics, edible materials.
Strapped on to the skycrane could be an inflatable shelter, or not, something that needs a greater degree of protection.
As the assembly was deployed, the chain would be too heavy for the "SkyCrane" to have any hope of landing it gently, rather the decent would be very rapid.
At the last moments of landing, the first part of the chain, the edible structures would hit hard, and very likely shatter to some degree, but the load would be lessened. The "SkyCrane would fire special rockets to give an immediate additional reduction in speed. The whole assembly would be traveling sideways to some degree, so that the chain would not all fall on top of the previously deposited materials. At some point just before impact of the "SkyCrane" an explosive bolt would disconect the upper end of the chain from the "SkyCrane". The "SkyCraine" would then either softland, or hardcrash, or fly back into orbit. I favor softland. It would have released the majority of it's cargo, and so the engines would be capable of halting it's inertia, and also of allowing it to hover and land.
Concerns would be "Backlash" where the chain might rebound up and hit the "SkyCrane/Lander". A vigorous sideways motion might help to protect from that.
Alternately the chain would be released substantially above the point where it touched the ground, and with a sideways motion it shoud differentiate as it impacts.
I would think the speed of impact should be slow enough that some of the chain would be intact, and useful as chain.
In some cases, starting the deployment of the deposite of chain at the top of the sloping landform and ending at the bottom of a depression such as a crater might also help, but would require almost perfect precision.
As for humans landing I wonder if in the end they might dare to be in spacesuits only with a rocket pack? If so, they would need to have a reliable rocket pack, and again extreme precision as to land where the deployed resources are, or they would almost certainly die.
Crash landing some stuff first is also an additive option.
Presuming these people landed would have tools and a shelter and an energy source, they might build what else they needed with the depoyed materials, and local materials.
I choose chain because it has some of the attributes of a solid, and some attributes of a fluid, especially when it would be vibrating.
This should allow the dissapation of impact energy over an extended period of time compaired to an impact of a big solid lump of whatever.