New Mars Forums

Well, as manufacturing goes 3D printers are a generalist, on the first few missions, the unexpected might be a factor, so I would want some generalist capabilities supported by innovative solutions (Software) from Earth.

The personal though?  Specialized as far as a narrow purpose, most efficient at that.  The 3D printer might save them, if events go outside of their specialized efficient abilities.

If you are talking exploration, then the scheme to escape danger might focus on leaving early.

If you are talking about the first construction crew, then maybe you send a drone/warehouse with robotic hard landers into orbit around Mars, with spare parts, 3D printers, and whatever, before sending the crew.

Then you send a split crew, some in orbit, and some early landers.

The early landers, set up the prelimary habitat and life support.  As they need it, additional supplies from the drone are dropped down by the orbital crew.  Spare parts, a 3D printer. 

Supposing that it starts as a experiment, and they do a final evaluation.  Is this location going to be worth building on.  Are the resources expected actually available and usable?  In the case of yes, then you send down more of the materials.  Otherwise abort and relocate at a later date.

If the location is confirmed and the construction crew intend to stay permanently, then after the hard landers are all used up, the orbital crew lands also, and the drone and unused parts remain in orbit, to be sold to anyone wanting them to set up a different base.

I am presuming that the drone would have been propelled to Mars not by chemical rockets, but perhaps efficient and slow electrical or solar sail or solar wind methods.

This after all would be a construction project, not the first landing.

Here are some thoughts about bringing plastic raw materials:
-What if the fuel tank of the hard lander were Plastic?  Could Kerosene be suitable for a lander fuel?
-What if such a parts lander had a cushion of crushable honeycomb made of plastic? 

Then those materials could be scavenged to feed into the 3D printer.

Where it might seem like I am proposing that I am not being real about the amount of materials that could be available in orbit, I would suggest that by the time such an activity like this were actually done, humans would have already been capturing small asteroids/rocks, and moving them the the Earth/Moon area, and in that situation, I do not think that the mass delivery to Mars orbit budget will be nearly as strict as if we were supposing a delivery from the Earths surface to the Mars surface.

Lewis said:

I agree, that the probability of a lavatube being located at an advantage, and particularly finding one under ice is currently diffacult.  But the person who initiated this thread had a specific set of requests, and I have tried to move forward on them.

However, I am thinking of a network of ice caves, sandstone caves, and lava tube caves (If lava tube caves are convenient).

The lavatube caves would be natural.  The ice caves and sandstone caves would be manufactured, slight chances exist for sandstone caves, but in their natural state they would likely not be of much value.

For ice caves, I am thinking of skyscrapers embeded in ice, with airlocks on the top, and connection to a sandstone deposite below.  The ice walls would help hold the structure's pressurization needs.

Here are some links to artificial sandstone caves.  For some sandstone, but not all, they might be possible:

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/ar … ve-temples

http://www.faribaultdairy.com/tourthecaves/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news … mers-hole/

http://www.google.com/search?q=californ … 93&bih=491

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_cave

http://www.napanow.com/wine.caves.html

I have no expectations, that we would want to first settle the high lattitudes, unless a submerged cave of convenience offered some unusual advantage, which I do not expect.

However, for all the intentions of terraforming Mars, it is also not practicle in my opinion to have a strong efficient Earth type habitat which covers a large scale of area in any realistic time frame.

We need a plenum.  On  Earth our plenum is the surface with a suitable atmosphere above it.

That will not be available on Mars any time soon.

Mice and other rodents, are helped by a snowfall in the winter.  They are small and will freeze without it.

I guess what I am looking for is a large scale network which can be expanded to great expanses.  I have said verticle ice caves filled with a verticle building.  I have also said sandstone caves which could be stable if the right sandstone pockets existed, and I think some will.  Beyond that for bulk transportation, on long distances, I suppose surface trains and roads with robotic trucks make sense.  However it might also be possible to have horrizontal subways in the ice (Which will require supports), or maybe even in the sandstone, and in some cases harder rock, which may not require support.

Solar collectors would need to be on the surface of course with robots to construct them from parts manufactured. (Above or below, depending on economics).  The verticle buildings in the ice would be the location to route power cables down to the caves.

In this case your water supply would be mined, either tunneling, or open pit.

I believe that solar collection will continue to become more efficient, and also lighting devices would be better.  So, it is not unreasonable to me to suppose that in some sandstone caves, you could have trees, most likely for fruit.  The trees would also be for human happyness.  The spectrum of light could be only that that the trees use when people are not visiting, but better light could be provided for those occasions when people want it.

Even more efficient will be chemosynthesis, where chemicals manufactured can drive a biological system.  Mushrooms will grow on soil contaminated with oil for instance.  I expect that the oil would have to be manufactured.

A harder to handle method would involve Hydrogen and Oxygen, which could be obtained from water and energy.

And of course their can be greenhouses on the surface as well.

I guess I have deviated from the "Initial Foothold" theme, but maybe "Initial foothold of a planetary civilization could be supposed".

I beleive that manufacturing materials for building a large scale plenum on the surface could be largely unprofitable, and sandstone under ice may exist in large quantities.  I think that large scale of pressurized space many be more profitable with this scheme.

I would want to figure out how to find lava tubes submerged under ground ice.  Tunnel down to them through the ice, and set up shop.  I would think that they would already be sealed by ice (Lava tubes have cracks), so they could be pressurized.  They could be warmed to a reasonable temperature that does not melt ice, and building methods more similar to what we do on Earth could be used, to provide accomodations for living and for factories.

Finding them would be hard, and I suppose it would almost have to be at high lattitudes.

Could some type of rover with a sonar which pings into the ice work to search for them?  I suppose you would have clues from the geology, to know that you were in a location where ice lies above a possible ancient volcanic location.

Just in case I have somehow stimulated some bad energy, I want to state that it was my intention to visit only for the Holidays.  Of course I sense that this is probabbly not that much about me.

I have no intention to devote the psychic energy necessary to maintain here, and I actually have a very hard time relating, the communications are often odd.  Having a common mode of transfering thoughts.  A lot of lost in translation going on I think.

So, for my part, it's all for the better.  I just wish I could have snuk through just a little more gracefully.  But oh well.

Be peaceful.

I have no special notion to push,  I am just throwing spitballs at the wall to see if anyting can stick.

Nuclear with thorium would be OK with me, because it is quite possible to make sure that you have very little dangerous material in the reactor, or at least that is what I thought I read.

I am just thinking however even for that vehicle it might still be prefered to have efficient robots place ice blocks along the routes.  I think it is implied that you also do not object to that.

Time will tell,  I have always felt that the space program has an evil nanny, that puts the pillow over the babies head when it appears that it might be about to start up.

But little by little, human abilities are advancing.  Maybe some day they will reach a "Critical Heat Level" and suddenly it will make all the sense "out of this world" to get going with the various things, you have mentioned.

Bye GW

I am always going to try to invent or improve and idea, in order to benefit economics.  If that is accomplished, then the economic justification is improved.

Just today I was thinking about the skyhook idea.  That is a relative of the space elevator you mentioned.

However personally I do not favor the space elevator or a skyhook that drops through the deep atmosphere to the ground.  It is too much of a reach.

I was planning to go off and think about it for some time, what I am thinking of is not very well developed, and if I had time to think of it more, I might just drop it and not mention it.

Still, I will take the leap.  The worst that can happen is you will just say some things I don't like, and we will part company.  You can rest assured I have no reputation to be concerned about.

A large flywheel in orbit, perhaps interacting with the magnetic field.  Perhaps the flywheel is partially made of the super strong materials that a space elevator tether would be.

A yoke with a tether connected to the axis of the flywheel with a "Interface Device" on the end (The hook).  That hook having small rockets on it for fine tuning a "Interface" with a sub-orbital payload.

The tether spinning prograde to orbit motion.

The flywheel spinning retrograde.  I am hoping that the flywheel could interact with the Earths magnetic field like a electic rotor in a motor where the Earth is the stator, but I havn't really thought that out very much at all yet.  The intention would be to gain orbital momentum to compensate for natural process losses of orbital speed.

The "Interface" dropping only down to "Altitudes" where atmospheric heating will not be excessive.

The use of the spinning flywheel, perhaps to allow the retrograde "Orbit" of the tether/hook assembly to change at different points in it's circular spin.  The desire would be to allow it to dwell longer as it dipped downward.

The dwelling would be accomplished by a magnetic clutch, to apply retrograde flywheel motion to the tether.

Of course there will be complications of motions and whiplash and that sort of thing, but if accomplished in some better variation, then I would hope that a payload would be delivered to it by a sub-orbital rocket.

I think the advantages would be that;
The suborbital rocket would have a gauranteed return to Earth (Whole or in pieces).
The heating problem should not be as severe as a return from full orbit I believe.

Intercept would be tricky.  The flywheel would maybe be able to make the hook dwell longer.  The intercept hook would have rocket engines to maneuver.  The rest would be up to the sub-orbital rocket, and co-operation, to exchange a payload, to abort, or to have a disastor.

Another alternative would be to dip the "Hook" into the atmosphere, and fill a tank with atmopheric gasses.  Of course the relative speeds have to be reasonable between the hook and the atmosphere, but actually a relative motion of 100, or 200 miles per hour could facilitate a compression process, but of course how to you dump the heat?  That requires radiators, which of course have mass.

I do not know at this time if a useable relative speed could be achieved.

As I said I have had all of 3 or 4 hours to have intermittant thoughts on it.  By the way I have a bit of dislexia, don't be surprised if my spin motions might be wrong.  But you should be able to get the idea.

As for finances?  This is all speculative.  So are the finances.

One day a spark will find enough fuel to ingnite a justifiable business process or it won't.

I may live 20 more years or I won't.

I don't have a firm plan for what I will try to do in the next 20 years, just some ideas, and no gaurantees.

Maybe you will hate this post the most of all.  If so, then I guess we are done talking.  I then have nothing to offer you and am just a disruption of what you want to accomplish.

The only piece missing is financing.  Some technological method would almost surely exist, but who would be given the rights to own Venus, and to "Improve" it and to profit from then selling an improved Venus?

If someone has a financial motivation and the technological means, then I think yes.

What sort of Earth type things interest you that would also be benificial in space?

If this works, maybe it also changes things for other forms of propulsion.

http://sciencenordic.com/sailing-solar-winds

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_sail

http://www.electric-sailing.fi/

Quote:

I guess what I am after, is fuel depots, supplied by robotic verisions of a propulsion system having such an ability.
It would be OK to have them be combustable chemicals, but that is harder to maintain at a distance.
A block of ice in a sealed wrapper which was highly reflective should keep in orbit around Mars, or in intermediate orbits in locations between Earth and Mars.  If the vehicle, which can propulse with water or chemicals could retank at intermediate locations, then the typical mass of the vehicle could be smaller, which may allow more payload to be carried, or a quicker trip or both.

In addition those fueling stations could have some emergency repair/survival capabilities, no specifics given for that.

Well, it is really hard to be confident about a projection, because the psychology of Earth and "Younger" cultures will change, and the motivations therefore, and the technological paths as well.  But I will speculate.

Once the Moon is usable, I would think it is only a matter of time before someone takes their affairs to Mercury.  If the challenges there are mastered, the materials, and energy could push that location to the forefront of human affairs.  I think it might be some time before it gets started because interest will be with the Moon, Mars, and the Asteroids.

But when Mercury gets going, I would think it would just keep growing to the limits of the volitile materials, and then in order for them to purchace them from the outer solar system, they would have to export metals I suppose.

Venus would perhaps come into the picture after that.  If no other solution were availible, I would think the atmosphere would be mined.  It does not particularly contain anything Mercury would want, so perhaps CO2 and Nitrogen would be exported.

I am presuming technological advancements, but I have wondered if the atmosphere of Venus could be microwaved to make it bubble up, and turn to a magnetic plasma, and if that could be collected magnetically.  As I said, I am presuming technological advancements, and presuming a massive industrial capability both from Mercury and the Earth/Moon.

But Venus would be a latestarter if that is how it happens.

As for the human race deviating from it's current form, and having different motivations, that is a real possiblity.

Yeah, I did think of the Hydrogen part, but I figured why spoil the party, just order some more Hydrogen when you run out maybe?  For Venus, certain extra liberties shoud be granted, and a merit badge for even dairing to try.

Nettles did not seem desirable to me, but it looks like they have somethings to offer and in one case extreem tollerance to low lighting conditions:

http://phys.org/news/2012-12-cave-nettle-china.html

I can't say if the species found above has all of the desirable characteristics mentioned below, but tollerance to .04% would be extreemly useful if that is the correct number.  I don't know what the growth rates would be.  Probabbly very slow in that lighting.  Still of great interest I think.

Whatever means this plant has to do that would be useful if transferable to other plants.  Particularly if the plants were to be grown in undergrounds such as lava tubes under artificial light.

Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nettle#Use … of_nettles

Quotes:

Medicine, cloths, and maybe even food.  That seems useful.